Often it is Pep won the treble his first season at Barca, Mourinho broke the points record his first season at Chelsea, Wenger won the league his first season, Heck Van Gaal himself won the double his first season at Barca and the double his first season at Bayern plus made it to the European final. So the idea a manager can not have success his first season is a load of nonsense. I am not expecting a league title but, we should expect better than what we have gotten so far this season. We should at least have some distance between us and the rest of the competitors for third and not be in a dogfight.
So what is the actual issue then?
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
Yep. Which for me is just a continuation of how things were under Moyes. We're still on a massive SAF hangover, deep in his shadow with nobody having any clue how we get back to where we were and everybody running scared. It's entirely psychological.
God knows how we get out of it, I just pray it doesn't go on for two or three decades this time.
That last sentence really is "a load of nonsense" (to use your own phrase) but it's late and I'm too tired to explain why.
Fergie anointing Moyes and Woody fecking up the first transfer window has really set us back a couple of years.
I just think we've gone from having strikers who are used to having pace in the wide areas, getting cut backs and crosses from deep areas. That allowed them to use their finishing and clever mental movement rather than their physical attributes. Now in the 3-5-2 or the 4-4-2 diamond, it relies on strikers who can run and actually stretch defenses. In our main 3 striker's we just don't have that. I would argue selling Welbeck in that aspect is the biggest mistake. He used to stretch defence's for us even though he didn't score many.
Which is why it's essential that we give Van Gaal his time to continue the process.
I don't think we will see his vision until next year when he has the players he wants to play the football he wants.
Not this Frankenstein stuff asking players to do jobs unnatural to them.
What if we dont get CL spot though? Would you give him time despite that fact?
What's his aim for next season then? Surely not top 4, because then there is literally no point in continuing with him mate. Imagine spending £300million on transfers and giving him a top 4 target next season.
As for the issue's. I agree with Raoul, the decisions the boards has made since Ferguson retired have ridiculous set us back, when we should have been pushing forwards after winning title number 20.
Next season aim will and should be the title.
Yeah 100% agree.
Whether he gets a Champions a league spot or not I stick by him because getting 4th manager in 3 years is counter productive and we start all over again. The new manager has his own opinions on the squad, needs to work with it first, buy his own players. Bad idea.
The target for this year should be title regardless of Top 4 finish this year. The margin between 4th and even 7th will be within two wins IMO so it's actually pretty irrelevant where we finish in terms of next years target. He then has a whole summer to complete the squad and make it his own and then work with the squad to make it gel. I'm certain we will be a different beast next year.
What's the issue?...........
Teams know we're going to give them the time to regroup and get men behind the ball; that we won't stretch the play with width; and that we won't hit them on the break with pace.
In essence, opposition managers know exactly how they can get points off us, especially in their own back yards.
Teams know we're going to give them the time to regroup and get men behind the ball; that we won't stretch the play with width; and that we won't hit them on the break with pace.
In essence, opposition managers know exactly how they can get points off us, especially in their own back yards.
That's all true but its better to get a new manager than stick with one with which it isnt working.
I dont mean it isnt working and LVG isnt the man who is going to make us better but right now there are a lot of problems and if he wont get nr. 4 I wouldnt be surprised if he got the sack.
I believe in LVG and still believe we're get 4th but my believe has taken some big hits in recent weeks.
If the players can’t play the way he wants now then he should play in a way that brings out the best in the players he has. What’s the point in persisting with it if the players haven’t got it by now, or as you say, until he gets the players in who can?
Unless he knows no other way to play?
The problem is, we as football fans only see the production on the field. We don't see what is going on behind the scenes. Also, we are all fickle. We want results, and we want them now. We ignore the fact that building things takes time, and if things don't work straight away, we are quick to assume it won't work forever.That's all true but its better to get a new manager than stick with one with which it isnt working.
I dont mean it isnt working and LVG isnt the man who is going to make us better but right now there are a lot of problems and if he wont get nr. 4 I wouldnt be surprised if he got the sack.
I believe in LVG and still believe we're get 4th but my believe has taken some big hits in recent weeks.
That is the challenge. The challenge is deciding when you say "OK, LVG isn't going to get any better". I do not think that time should be this season because building a team takes a year. People are quick to say that the team isn't that bad and that Moyes was only here a year and before it was a title winning team, but i don't buy it. This team has been imbalanced and playing poor quality football for a long time, and it took SAF's determination and will power and motivation to get this squad to excel. LVG is a good manager, but he is not a man motivator like Ferguson. LVG (in theory) will tactically get the best out players but he won't make them exceed their own abilities.
This squad is not built for LVG. We either trust him and we give him time to make it, or we part ways and give another manager a try.
The only issue is, this squad isn't built for any manager other than Ferguson. It is true maybe someone like Mourinho would have gotten more out of it, but even then it would need a significant re-shape.
That's the thing isn't it. Do we ship the manager and keep the players and find a manager who can get these players to work? Or do we ship the players and let LVG build the team he needs?
My biggest concern is that these players need revamping and i'll tell you why:
1) Confidence seems to be shot and desire to achieve what they already have seems to be lost.
2) I don't feel like this squad of players is suited to any manager. We aren't solid and fast to play counter, we aren't technical to play a passing game, we don't have great movement etc. I don't think we can ship LVG and find a manager who will make this squad work despite the talent in it.
3) This squad has serious imbalances. Yes we have some world class players and we spent £150m, but you cannot ignore that imbalance. A football team should exceed the sum of it's individual parts. Right now, our team is actually playing worse than the sum of it's individual parts. Why? Imbalance.
The rest of my opinions are in the post I just made, but ultimately, we can't just keep shipping managers. These players are all wrong - it's a mish mash of a squad. We have some WC talent yes, so lets build the team around them. I would rather have however a great team of good to great players who work well together than a team of worldies and great players who are a mish mash. and the very best way to achieve that is to keep a manager and let them fix it.
dont get the last sentence. This squad isnt built for Ferguson, I mean LVG bought players he needs and will buy them if he stays. Who knows what would Fergie do with this squad but its completely different to the one of 2013, which wasnt exactly good but Ferguson won the title with it.
As you said Mourinho would need a reshape, LVG needs it too.
I dont know about motivational skills of LVG but I think atmosphere is better than last year when players lacked confidence even though this season is a torture and we're not playing well. It seems to me spirit is there and you can see that from some of the reactions of players. And I think players believe in LVG and his ideas.
As for players not exceeding theif own abilities, I dont know, look at Young and Fellaini.They're having a very good season after they've been written off by majority of fans.
LVG has bought half a team, he already had Rooney, RVP, Rafael, Smalling, Jones, Valencia, Young, Fellaini, de Gea, Mata, Januzaj, Carrick, Evans, he could easily have balanced the team with the money spent. Our starting 11 has balance its just he chooses to experiment because he has no idea what our best team is, the majority of the Caf could tell him what our best team is.
LVG is a very good manager, of that I have no doubt, but it’s time we started judging him on his United career and not his past.
Agreed, and even that Xavi, Iniesta, Messi setup relied on exhausting (mentally/physically) their defence minded opponents. We aren't doing that. Instead it's our players who are making the mentally tired mistakes.
That's a good quote, it's why I remain optimistic about LvG. Despite the philosophy lectures, he's got a pragmatic streak that will step in and take over.
Because many fans wrote them off incorrectly. Besides, Young fine - he's improved. But I wouldn't say he's doing that much better then he did when he was at his best for us a few years ago. Nor when he was at Villa. Fellaini is still not performing at the level he did for Everton, so he is't overachieving in any way shape or form.
I doubt anyone's imagining miracles. We're hoping for faster play, and a better balanced team. We can't do anything about the players, they're what we've got. We can't say much about the training, we don't know what they do in the sessions.
Which leaves us with what we see on the pitch, the team selection, the formation and the instructions they appear to be following. If you read the article linked in:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/an-...hilosophy-from-van-gaal.401728/#post-17146262
You'll see that we don't even play LvG's (traditional) preferred formation. What we're trying to guess is what's stopping us.
If we missed the point of the thread, it's presumably because you think you posed a rhetorical question and that we might as well stop trying to understand United's play until 6 months after the start of next season when we hope our next batch of summer signings has bedded in. It's an interesting thought but it's going to make for a very dull forum if all it does is retweet the manager's press conference and the odd blog post by Juan Mata.
I disagree - our starting 11 does not have balance at all.
And I'm not judging LVG by his past, I'm judging him based on the situation he is currently in. You just seem to want to ignore information unless it is tangible and clear for you to see - which is fine, but I don't agree with it is all.
All true but they've risen from dead so to say under a new manager.
Fergie was special with getting the players exceed their own ability. And it took him years of rebuilding squads and managing the same team for 20 and so years. LVG is new at this club so you cant expect him to get the players exceed their own abilities right away. And he's a different kind of manager compared to Fergie too.
What information? He claims the team is unbalanced yet plays a forward in midfield, a winger as right back and Midfielder as a forward, that's unbalance right there.
Has he explained exactly what he means by unbalanced? Maybe what you are looking at isnt what he thinks is unbalanaced
Your argument is kinda flawed as Swansea have their own problems as do all the teams we are dropping points against I'd suggest we are capable of fielding just a balanced team as anyone not above us.
If the team is unbalanced what do you do? Unbalance it more or actually do something to sort it out. This Rooney is needed in midfield theory he has is bollocks
Agreed that some of his decisions are baffling, but none of the players on our team really complement each other. That is simply a fact, and if you can't see that it isn't worth us debating - we should just agree to disagree.
Aye. Part of the reason for our predicament, both present and last season, is to be found here.
People keep banging on about how supposed top clubs in Europe keep sacking their managers to no detrimental effect - but fail to take into consideration that our structure, the very anatomy of the club, has been incomparable to other top clubs for over a quarter of a century. Because of Fergie. Replacing him was never going to be easy.
Even if we presume that some sort of revolving door policy is worth adopting, we can't do so until we have a different groundwork in place. The grand upside of LVG is that I firmly believe that he'll leave us in a decent state if he's allowed to build a properly working team before resigning/getting sacked. If we sack him now, there is indeed no guarantee the next bloke won't do precisely what both Moyes and LVG did before him: Assess the squad, give yet another chance to players we're better off without, bring in new players who won't gel immediately - and so forth. And that is without even considering what is happening beyond the first team.
I could equally say your argument is flawed because you are talking about Swansea, not Man Utd. Different teams, different pressures, different circumstances.
Yes, other teams have their own problems, and no I'm not saying LVG has been perfect. He's been shite, and lets be honest my belief in him has long been dented. But once again just like with Moyes people want to ignore the fact our team isn't balanced.
Look at Chelsea success... look at Real... they rotate thru managers all the time. Certainly not the "United Way", but clearly it is not automatically "counter productive".
Now then our issue.
I have a simple theory... the manager has lost the dressing room. I mean honestly if you are Herrera or Mata how can you see Rooney at CM and Falcao and RvP continually getting starts while you sit on the bench. Sorry if I was in their boots I would lose faith with the guy. same thing with Pogba, he saw two defenders start CM over him under Fergie. One of the managers most important jobs is to make you feel important and frankly i think way too many of the players have no idea what he wants and therefore have no way of feeling vital to the team's success.
All these people focused on tactics and formations (and I have a fair few of those to my name) really just want players playing in positions they feel comfortable in and are natural. Much of that is just assumed in thye FIFA generation, but frankly this is what Fergie was a master of, man management and I would bet in private conversations more that a few current players would *not* be signing LvG's praises...
.Interesting theory. Yet no evidence for that whatsoever.Look at Chelsea success... look at Real... they rotate thru managers all the time. Certainly not the "United Way", but clearly it is not automatically "counter productive".
Now then our issue.
I have a simple theory... the manager has lost the dressing room. I mean honestly if you are Herrera or Mata how can you see Rooney at CM and Falcao and RvP continually getting starts while you sit on the bench. Sorry if I was in their boots I would lose faith with the guy. same thing with Pogba, he saw two defenders start CM over him under Fergie. One of the managers most important jobs is to make you feel important and frankly i think way too many of the players have no idea what he wants and therefore have no way of feeling vital to the team's success.
All these people focused on tactics and formations (and I have a fair few of those to my name) really just want players playing in positions they feel comfortable in and are natural. Much of that is just assumed in thye FIFA generation, but frankly this is what Fergie was a master of, man management and I would bet in private conversations more that a few current players would *not* be signing LvG's praises...
Yeah this is a big issue, the time it takes us to keep possession means teams just re group. And then start the tactics, Swansea for example at times our back 2 spread and they left two strikers on either one and pushed midfield up to pressure us. Other teams just get back to flat 4 and 4 in midfield. And then our passing hasnt been good enough around the box to create a chance (Herrera's goal was an exception lets hope that continues)
Cant think if we've had a one on one due to a through ball other than di maria this season. Embarrassing really.
Its confidence though the reason it isnt flowing. Saw few clips from pre season, how great we were to watch
Err not really If we play Blind or Carrick in midfield with Fellaini and Herrera or even Di Maria your only argument is we need an upgrade on Fellaini. It would be balanced!
No evidence? You seen our results lately?
Not saying I am right but based on the quality of players we have sitting I would say it should be considered not dismissed out right. Just my theory...
I don't think he has lost the dressing room. The players seem quite happy. Last season you could tell their were problems and there were loads of stories coming out.
There are definately problems with imbalance and players struggling with formations but for me the real problem is teams know how to beat us as we are so predictable , slow build up , possession football played across the back four and no intensity . There has also been a lot of basic errors throughout the team , poor passing , decision making and woeful at set plays and corners . When struggling for goals and form we need to be less wasteful with set plays and make them count . Hope I am wrong but I can't see things changing much this season , I go into each game with optimism hoping that this will be where it clicks but feel we will be relying on others to feck up for us to get top four rather than us taking it for ourselves .
We need to get our midfield sorted, we need to play the 4-2-3-1 with 2 holding CM's to cover the defence! We are getting shitted on by small teams because we are to weak in midfield!
Blind is a tidy player but not strong enough on his own.
Herrara is technically brilliant but is too small and his defensively weak.
Di Maria, same as Herrera gifted but just gets bullied off the ball.
Mata... You get it by now.
And for those who are saying play Fellaini at the top of the diamond...your joking right?
Carrick is the only player who I trust in midfield but to get the best out of him he needs someone with him and I think Blind will work well that's why I suggest the 4-2-3-1.
What we need are strong CM's who wont get bullied and are defensively top!
I can't see us keeping our Espanic outfield players beyond summer 2016!
Blind is a tidy player but not strong enough on his own.
Herrara is technically brilliant but is too small and his defensively weak.
Di Maria, same as Herrera gifted but just gets bullied off the ball.
Mata... You get it by now.
And for those who are saying play Fellaini at the top of the diamond...your joking right?
Carrick is the only player who I trust in midfield but to get the best out of him he needs someone with him and I think Blind will work well that's why I suggest the 4-2-3-1.
What we need are strong CM's who wont get bullied and are defensively top!
I can't see us keeping our Espanic outfield players beyond summer 2016!
Various things have inhibited us this season at different points, many of them the manager's doing I believe.
The real elephant at the moment is that not one of our strikers is good enough anymore. The 'sharp end' of our team simply isn't very sharp at all. We were unfortunate to lose to Swansea on saturday as we dominated, but ultimately, we offered little more than slowly passing from side-to-side to work a full-back into a crossing position. Persie's radar was off, although he was at least being a 'striker' in terms of trying to work the keeper and get shots off. That said, the fact that none of them can run past a man, with or without the ball, or even dribble past defenders is a huge hinderance to the team. It has an effect on all the midfielders behind them too.
On saturday, Rooney did nothing 'wrong', but he put in the performance of a central midfielder playing centre-forward almost. He offered nothing different to Herrera 10 yards behind him. It was all receive it into feet, play a short pass, get it back, play another short pass, pass it out wide rinse and repeat. It wasn't wrong, but it was all too blunt. It was like watching Tom Cleverley play centre-forward.
I wouldn't be sad if none of the three were in the first XI next season, although we appear to be contractually bound to Rooney and emotionally bound to Persie. Centre-halves are too comfortable playing against our strikers as our forwards don't move them around enough or make life uncomfortable. I don't think they have enough to start as strikers for elite sides anymore, unless perhaps that side had insane goal threat from wide and they were simply relied upon to be 'goal-hangers' and just finish. They can no longer do nearly enough on their own, and defenders know it and are not rattled. If they were stretching defenders the likes of Di Maria and Herrera would be an increased threat from deeper.
The real elephant at the moment is that not one of our strikers is good enough anymore. The 'sharp end' of our team simply isn't very sharp at all. We were unfortunate to lose to Swansea on saturday as we dominated, but ultimately, we offered little more than slowly passing from side-to-side to work a full-back into a crossing position. Persie's radar was off, although he was at least being a 'striker' in terms of trying to work the keeper and get shots off. That said, the fact that none of them can run past a man, with or without the ball, or even dribble past defenders is a huge hinderance to the team. It has an effect on all the midfielders behind them too.
On saturday, Rooney did nothing 'wrong', but he put in the performance of a central midfielder playing centre-forward almost. He offered nothing different to Herrera 10 yards behind him. It was all receive it into feet, play a short pass, get it back, play another short pass, pass it out wide rinse and repeat. It wasn't wrong, but it was all too blunt. It was like watching Tom Cleverley play centre-forward.
I wouldn't be sad if none of the three were in the first XI next season, although we appear to be contractually bound to Rooney and emotionally bound to Persie. Centre-halves are too comfortable playing against our strikers as our forwards don't move them around enough or make life uncomfortable. I don't think they have enough to start as strikers for elite sides anymore, unless perhaps that side had insane goal threat from wide and they were simply relied upon to be 'goal-hangers' and just finish. They can no longer do nearly enough on their own, and defenders know it and are not rattled. If they were stretching defenders the likes of Di Maria and Herrera would be an increased threat from deeper.
Crap defence, midfield getting changed around a lot and strikers are in poor form. Thems our problems.