So what is the actual issue then?
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
Playing with such narrow width makes it so easy to mark strikers like RvP and Falcao out of the game, as neither of them deviate from their position too much. The opposition defence can happily camp in the centre of the box and counter us when they win back the ball. Also the problem with our possession based football, is that there is not enough off the ball movement to give us that quick change of pace which opens up opportunities in the final third. Our main issue is having the wrong personnel for the formation that we are playing; be that 3-5-2 or 4-4-2. We sold our only established striker with pace in Welbeck, and while I understand the decision, it would have been interesting to see how effective he would have been in this setup.
Are you not amazed though that we've once again managed to not address serious squad deficiencies despite spending that money? Did nobody think, 'we've got an endless pot of cash, instead of spending 60M on a luxury player (di maria), we'll be a bit more practical and spend big on a world class centre mid'? The spine of our team is still poor compared to the teams around us. It's like you're building a house and you've made it out of wood to have money to spend on nice furniture.
We are not creating the clear cut chances through the middle which is due to a lack of width.
Our manager, and some fans seem to be confusing having most of the ball with dominating a game. When you create chance after chance with fluid football that the opposition can't cope with you dominate a game, we haven't done that all season.
The hoof ball isn't great either, the last 20 minutes yesterday was just League 1 stuff.
The hoof ball isn't great either, the last 20 minutes yesterday was just League 1 stuff.
Various issues, but the one you mention is the most worrying thing to me too. You can talk about tactics, a player's form and formations all you want.
But Manchester United at home getting outplayed by Burnley was laughable, the whole team needs to step up after 15 minutes in a match like that, but they just did not seem ready for that. Why is that?
I believe we have one of the youngest and least experienced squads out of the top 8 teams this year, while on the other hand winning every match is an absolute must after last season. For me this explains 80-85% of our problems.
Tactics are overrated and a managers's influence too, all the big names from Guardiola to Anceltotti and even Van Gaal himself have made claims about their influence on a team being only 20%, and that's when things are working out. The rest of the succes or results is down to various other variables.
Found a link that gave:
"Within the Premier League, City's squad is the oldest followed by Crystal Palace (28.4), Stoke (28.1), West Brom (27.8) and QPR (27.7).The youngest five squads among England’s elite belong to Newcastle (25.3), Manchester United (25.4), Southampton (25.6), Liverpool (25.7) and Arsenal (26)."
Second youngest then, not that strange we look clueless at times while the quality and potential is definitely there imo.
Also credits to @Pexbo for making a very good opening post.
Playing a 442 diamond like the one those speed cheat bastards do on Fifa Ultimate Team. One DM, RM/LM, an AM, and two strikers.
Doesn't work in real life!
One of our biggest problems, though, is the insistence on playing two flat-pack strikers, both of whom invariably feck all to the build-up.
Doesn't work in real life!
One of our biggest problems, though, is the insistence on playing two flat-pack strikers, both of whom invariably feck all to the build-up.
I've done that already and still can't for the life of me see any evidence of it succeeding on the pitch. That's what I judge on, not on what he says.
With Jones/Smalling and Rojo as CB you can't achieve nothing
But the big issue is the lack of ideas from the manager
But the big issue is the lack of ideas from the manager
I think the main issue is that we're still in the middle of, or even the start of transition. The last few years we've lost key players like Scholes, Giggs, Evra, Rio, Vidic, Fletcher, Ronaldo, VdS - apart from VdS none of these players have been fully replaced. Not to speak of the fact that we probably need to replace players like RvP and Carrick (Falcao is an assumed goner anyway) the coming summer, as well as invest in an additional CM, CB and RB, and god forbid De Gea if he doesn't sign a new deal. It's all a bit messy at the moment.
Won't somebody think of the subtlety of Van Persie's movement?!
There's not enough movement off the ball. We don't stretch teams with width or pace. We're not direct enough - ie we don't play with players who take on a man and beat him. This always causes problems.
It looks like the full backs have been told NOT to take the man on tbh. Shaw and Tony just turn back 90% of the time. As soon as Young came on, he was a constant threat because he committed the full back and then delivered the ball. The amount of times I'm screaming at the TV for Valencia to put a ball in the box.
It looks like the full backs have been told NOT to take the man on tbh. Shaw and Tony just turn back 90% of the time. As soon as Young came on, he was a constant threat because he committed the full back and then delivered the ball. The amount of times I'm screaming at the TV for Valencia to put a ball in the box.
For me it's simply setting up the team around using two strikers who are both too similar, particularly in the issues in their game and both off form.
The formations aren't such an issue as are the reason they're being used and how we use our players in them. Both the 352 and diamond are to facilitate having RVP, Falcao and Rooney as well as sometimes Felaini on the pitch when particularly the former two have done nothing to justify inhibiting the rest of our players to include both of them and all a trio/quartet it's too little pace, guile etc
LVG has even admitted that they're an issue as they lack pace (which surely he must have known before he signed Falcao and definitely did know about RVP). Yet he still plays them. He's even recognized that we struggle to create with them leading to including Fellaini as out battering ram when we get desperate. It's not a dig at Fellaini he's done what's asked of him fine. Personally I don't think it's worth it as for whatever he brings at the tip of the diamond with his height, his lack of ability to play people in stops us from being more creative.
I said it yesterday but whilst I think LVG has brought some positives I'm disappointed that despite his reputation he's not handled the big decisions well. RVP needs to be dropped. Falcao has been a failure so far (although tbf I think he could be better than he's showing in a better team set up). But we're persisting with one if not both of them too often and then further compromising the balance in our team by sticking Fellaini in there and pushing Rooney deeper.
Di Maria, Januzaj, Mata have not been great by any means but I'd say they've been somewhat better than the strikers and they haven't been playing in anywhere near the set up they'd want. There's no one making runs, no one to link up with. They're so isolated most the time. Every time it's a case of 3-4 players pushed high up the pitch, their backs to goal, ball goes forward to them, they can't turn so it's lost or comes back, it goes wide but because there's too many players already in the box the runner can't get the space to cross, or it's a poor ball, it either goes out for a corner or it goes back inside. Repeat.
It's got to be worth a go to put Rooney up top, have Fellaini there if you want that option as well, get di maria, januzaj and mata, let them play and then have two of Blind, Carrick and Herrera behind them. If we want to be more defensive it's easily changed. It might not work but I'd say more players will be comfortable there. Rooney leads the line well, di maria, januzaj, mata, herrera could all play of each other well to make it worth trying. RVP is hardly committing to staying long term and we've no obligation to keep Falcao next season.
We don't need to play two out and out strikers. Few top teams do so currently and if they do they have players who compliment each other. They build attacks through progression. It only takes one good ball and one good run. We seem to work on overloading the box despite the fact that no one is a great crosser bar Di Maria who's quality varies a lot and ends up very narrow a lot of the time anyway.
At the end of the day with the players we have they've got to be capable of playing better than this. Most of them have proven it before, can't be a coincidence that they're all struggling.
The formations aren't such an issue as are the reason they're being used and how we use our players in them. Both the 352 and diamond are to facilitate having RVP, Falcao and Rooney as well as sometimes Felaini on the pitch when particularly the former two have done nothing to justify inhibiting the rest of our players to include both of them and all a trio/quartet it's too little pace, guile etc
LVG has even admitted that they're an issue as they lack pace (which surely he must have known before he signed Falcao and definitely did know about RVP). Yet he still plays them. He's even recognized that we struggle to create with them leading to including Fellaini as out battering ram when we get desperate. It's not a dig at Fellaini he's done what's asked of him fine. Personally I don't think it's worth it as for whatever he brings at the tip of the diamond with his height, his lack of ability to play people in stops us from being more creative.
I said it yesterday but whilst I think LVG has brought some positives I'm disappointed that despite his reputation he's not handled the big decisions well. RVP needs to be dropped. Falcao has been a failure so far (although tbf I think he could be better than he's showing in a better team set up). But we're persisting with one if not both of them too often and then further compromising the balance in our team by sticking Fellaini in there and pushing Rooney deeper.
Di Maria, Januzaj, Mata have not been great by any means but I'd say they've been somewhat better than the strikers and they haven't been playing in anywhere near the set up they'd want. There's no one making runs, no one to link up with. They're so isolated most the time. Every time it's a case of 3-4 players pushed high up the pitch, their backs to goal, ball goes forward to them, they can't turn so it's lost or comes back, it goes wide but because there's too many players already in the box the runner can't get the space to cross, or it's a poor ball, it either goes out for a corner or it goes back inside. Repeat.
It's got to be worth a go to put Rooney up top, have Fellaini there if you want that option as well, get di maria, januzaj and mata, let them play and then have two of Blind, Carrick and Herrera behind them. If we want to be more defensive it's easily changed. It might not work but I'd say more players will be comfortable there. Rooney leads the line well, di maria, januzaj, mata, herrera could all play of each other well to make it worth trying. RVP is hardly committing to staying long term and we've no obligation to keep Falcao next season.
We don't need to play two out and out strikers. Few top teams do so currently and if they do they have players who compliment each other. They build attacks through progression. It only takes one good ball and one good run. We seem to work on overloading the box despite the fact that no one is a great crosser bar Di Maria who's quality varies a lot and ends up very narrow a lot of the time anyway.
At the end of the day with the players we have they've got to be capable of playing better than this. Most of them have proven it before, can't be a coincidence that they're all struggling.
Our strikers being rather shit is a big part of the problem.
We need a settled, balanced formation but this also encompasses the striking issue. Van Persie plays at the expense of balance elsewhere.
We need a settled, balanced formation but this also encompasses the striking issue. Van Persie plays at the expense of balance elsewhere.
I find this being pragmatic because of our defense to be a load of shit to be honest. If he's so worried why drop Smalling (our best defensive defender) and why the reluctance to play our best right back (his injury problems are no worse than the rest of them this season).
Why the need to be pragmatic against Burnley and co. Fair enough against City, Chelsea etc but no excuses for neutering our attacking intent against sides whose attacks and defenses are worse than ours. Let our players go out and express themselves against the bottom 12 sides in the League. Instead we pass the ball side to side until these teams realise they have nothing to fear at all and they start having a real go themselves. Also strange that his approach to protecting our defense is to leave our full backs exposed time and again and leaving Blind alone in the centre because Hererra (or whoever else is playing) has to try and cover 2 or 3 roles at once. He's so pragmatic that he hasn't even tried to drop one of the strikers and see if an extra man in midfield might stem the tide of attacks against us. God knows playing with 2 strikers hasn't made us look any good going forward either. It's not like being pragmatic has made us look less shaky, we are 10 points better off at least because of DDG (God knows we're fecked if he leaves).
Our players look confused about what is asked of them and they look afraid to really go at teams (although we seen some good signs for a while yesterday). We play without any real width formation wise yet we seem to end up crossing the ball most of the time anyway, it makes no sense.
As for leaders: RVP: doesn't give a shit, got his Premier League medal and has been on auto pilot ever since.
Falcao: doesn't give a shit.
Di Maria: really starting to believe he doesn't give a shit either.
There's a lot of experience there between those 3 but none of them look the least bit hurt when we lose games. Yet the 3 above have been given every chance to find form over players like Herrera, Mata, Janujaz, Young (in attacking positions). Players who may not have shown unbelievable form but at least look like they care about wearing our shirt. It's no coincidence that most of the best teams of all time have contained players who were brought up at the club surrounded by guys whose love for the shirt couldn't be questioned. Also people question Rafael and say he's finished here, I'd have him in the team whenever fit simply for the enthusiasm he displays for the club.
LVG needs to prove his reputation and stop pandering to his favourites and to agents.
Why the need to be pragmatic against Burnley and co. Fair enough against City, Chelsea etc but no excuses for neutering our attacking intent against sides whose attacks and defenses are worse than ours. Let our players go out and express themselves against the bottom 12 sides in the League. Instead we pass the ball side to side until these teams realise they have nothing to fear at all and they start having a real go themselves. Also strange that his approach to protecting our defense is to leave our full backs exposed time and again and leaving Blind alone in the centre because Hererra (or whoever else is playing) has to try and cover 2 or 3 roles at once. He's so pragmatic that he hasn't even tried to drop one of the strikers and see if an extra man in midfield might stem the tide of attacks against us. God knows playing with 2 strikers hasn't made us look any good going forward either. It's not like being pragmatic has made us look less shaky, we are 10 points better off at least because of DDG (God knows we're fecked if he leaves).
Our players look confused about what is asked of them and they look afraid to really go at teams (although we seen some good signs for a while yesterday). We play without any real width formation wise yet we seem to end up crossing the ball most of the time anyway, it makes no sense.
As for leaders: RVP: doesn't give a shit, got his Premier League medal and has been on auto pilot ever since.
Falcao: doesn't give a shit.
Di Maria: really starting to believe he doesn't give a shit either.
There's a lot of experience there between those 3 but none of them look the least bit hurt when we lose games. Yet the 3 above have been given every chance to find form over players like Herrera, Mata, Janujaz, Young (in attacking positions). Players who may not have shown unbelievable form but at least look like they care about wearing our shirt. It's no coincidence that most of the best teams of all time have contained players who were brought up at the club surrounded by guys whose love for the shirt couldn't be questioned. Also people question Rafael and say he's finished here, I'd have him in the team whenever fit simply for the enthusiasm he displays for the club.
LVG needs to prove his reputation and stop pandering to his favourites and to agents.
It seems like we are always looking for excuses, it’s the injuries, it’s the defence, it’s the midfield, it’s the attack, it’s the formation, it’s our tactics, it’s a new team, its Moyes mess, Fergie underspent, we bought the wrong players, we don’t have leaders, I’ve probably missed some.
You do realise he was playing on the right side of a diamond and not next to Blind in midfield, don't you?
When the whole fecking team is failing then you can't look any further than the manager.
Getting rid of Welbeck who offered pace and energy and signing Falcao who is very similar to RvP was one of his unfortunate decisions.
I'm using diplomatic language.
I'm using diplomatic language.
This is a huge issue. Why did we sell Welbeck? Yeah yeah I know "not United quality, can't score etc etc" bollocks. He'd be just as effective as the other three and would create more chances with his presence and ability. Still infuriates me that we sold him.
I seem to remember Hererra being very good at the beginning of his United career including pre-season playing a deeper role. Blind had not yet started playing. Maybe he's being asked to play a different role/s to accommodate Blind?
Welbeck would be on the bench if he was still with us; especially if we rented Falcao this year.
There was speculation he asked for more playing time in the middle. If that's the case he's pretty much in a similar situation at Arsenal.
Spoilt my transfer window.
Probably. But only because his reputation isn't as great as RvP or Rooney's. I think he would put in performances that would be worthy of starting.
I reckon he would have been ideal as a second striker creating space adding much-needed energy if Rooney was to be played in midfield.
I think the issue is that we have too many issues.
That our manager has neither exploited the strengths of his squad, nor responded appropriately to the demands of the league. He is making simple errors with regard to team selection and tactics, whilst further overcomplicating the task with 3-5-2. Van Gaal's preferred playing style is oppressive in nature and seeks to regulate the regulate the talent at his disposal rather than releasing it.
On the last day of the season United play Hull in what could be a match which guarantees their PL status, right now i'd back Phelan and Bruce to seize the importance of the occasion.
On the last day of the season United play Hull in what could be a match which guarantees their PL status, right now i'd back Phelan and Bruce to seize the importance of the occasion.
wilson was the reason we let danny go. Love welbeck but this is a business and he knew that he was likely 4 choice. No one knew that rvp form would be down this year. Wilson should play vs Sunderland
Wilson should have been available yesterday. We let a young England regular go for a kid that he now rarely plays, even though he is 10 times quicker than either RvP or Falcao.
1. Rafael not being fit and besides him we really don't have a RB.
2. 3-5-2 and other tactical nonsense.
3. Falcao and RvP not working well as a striker pair.
4. Rooney in midfield and all other players played out of position(read Di Maria as striker).
5. Mata as a sub and not in the team.
6. CB that are really shit and/or out of form.
7. Herrera as a sub and not in the team.
8. Lack of pace and mobility up front.
9. Lack of creative players(bar Di Maria) that can beat their man on the flanks.
10. Shaw and hamburgers.
11. RvP out of form.
to start with..
2. 3-5-2 and other tactical nonsense.
3. Falcao and RvP not working well as a striker pair.
4. Rooney in midfield and all other players played out of position(read Di Maria as striker).
5. Mata as a sub and not in the team.
6. CB that are really shit and/or out of form.
7. Herrera as a sub and not in the team.
8. Lack of pace and mobility up front.
9. Lack of creative players(bar Di Maria) that can beat their man on the flanks.
10. Shaw and hamburgers.
11. RvP out of form.
to start with..
We're hampered by a ineffective defence and a ponderous strike force. The midfield, which is pretty good now by all accounts, is literally stuck in the middle of it. They get the ball and no one's moving for them up front and they don't want to play it back because they don't have faith that Evans, Smalling et al can deal with it, especially if teams are pressing us high. I was watching the 98/99 team playing Juve in Turin and was struck by the Johnsen/Stam pairing at the back. Stam was obviously a mountain in the middle, he won everything in the air and on the ground, with Johnsen able to clear up and, AND bring the ball forward into midfield with confidence. Evans is the only one of our back four now that can get towards half way without getting a nose bleed and the others forward distribution is poor. You watch Neville and Irwin in the full back positions and they get forward to the opposition touchline, but can also play a killer ball from deep for front players to run on to. The whole mindset of our defence back then was to get the ball to the front as fast as possible. And at the front you had a front pairing who were quick, on the same wavelength and who were constantly moving to find space. Compared to our three regular upfront starters who now have a combined age of 90 and occupy the same space, with their back to goal constantly.
There was a quote from Fergie mentioned during the commentary of the game where he said that, and I'm paraphrasing, the way United played constantly gave him a heart attack. These days there's none of that, just bland unimaginative possession football, with some very expensive players either playing within themselves, or too apprehensive of giving the ball away.
There was a quote from Fergie mentioned during the commentary of the game where he said that, and I'm paraphrasing, the way United played constantly gave him a heart attack. These days there's none of that, just bland unimaginative possession football, with some very expensive players either playing within themselves, or too apprehensive of giving the ball away.
That's not how I remember it at all. In pre-season his best performance by far was playing as a number 10. He looked a little lost whenever he player deeper IMO.
He's a work in progress though. Once he gets a better handle on keeping our defensive shape he could be an excellent player for us. Definitely our most progressive and attacking CM.
I was just thinking about this today. So many issues have been highlighted, and they usually have been eventually remedied to the way we wanted them, and yet it's still looking fairly shite. Genuinely don't know the answer now. I mean clearly the defence still looks weak as feck, despite not having the worst defensive record, and clearly the strikers need to take their chances more then they are doing now. How do we remedy that? No idea.
What did the most recent data tall us? With 2013/14 as a guide we knew that both of our senior strikers were prone to injury and that their form could be erratic; contrastingly, Welbeck stepped up to the place to a proportionately higher degree even under Moyes. From Danny to Wilson there is a considerable drop-off in the certainty one could expect to have, the former being an experienced and in his way proven quantity, the latter mostly potential. To enter into the campaign with but a youth prospect and an injury plagued PL newcomer as back-up, well it was a risk to begin with.
Mates, it's the strikers.
At what point this season has either RvP or Falcao played a fantastic 90 minutes of football? 30 minutes? 15 minutes?
If we had Costa or Aguero or even Giroud in the squad surely at least three or four of draws would have resulted in wins and one or two of our defeats in draws. Do the math on that and we're comfortably in third place, maybe even still harboring an outside chance at the title.
We still have work to do elsewhere in the squad, but poor performances from our strikers is far and away our most serious problem right now.
At what point this season has either RvP or Falcao played a fantastic 90 minutes of football? 30 minutes? 15 minutes?
If we had Costa or Aguero or even Giroud in the squad surely at least three or four of draws would have resulted in wins and one or two of our defeats in draws. Do the math on that and we're comfortably in third place, maybe even still harboring an outside chance at the title.
We still have work to do elsewhere in the squad, but poor performances from our strikers is far and away our most serious problem right now.
this is pretty spot on, it was the same last season 'we'll be good when mata rooney and rvp play together'.
I honestly think the problem is the balance of the squad, I'd kill to have Falcao mata rooney and rvp out this summer, free up 1m a week on the wage bill and bring in some young, hungry players
Correct. In preseason Herrera was in beast mode as a 10. I was there at the Rose Bowl and he was far away the best player on the pitch, carving up a pretty decent LA Galaxy side at will with through balls we haven't seen much of since. Unless a god drops down from the heavens we have to build around Ander.
Just going to put this out there. That wont work.
Unless one of our strikers actually turns up it's going to look ugly.
I agree with this, young players with something to prove and want to win. Not loads of big names wanting to boost their bank balances, who have done it all already and are just having a last big payday. Problem is Ed is going to be involved in this somehow and he will want that big name shirt seller to please the sponsors.