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I think he'd be better in a background role for the overall England setup. He's quite good with the players and making them feel good and welcome but tactically he's absolutely shite.
Hilarious. A national team coach achieves England's third World Cup semi-final appearance in history, and then their first ever finals appearance in the Euros, and what do English fans do? Look under the hood and decide it's really all shite, and due to simple luck. Fans like you truly deserve all the hurt you've been getting since 1966.Despite me wanting England to lose, this is not a "let's piss ourselves laughing at England" thread. Plenty of those exist.
So what do you think happens to Southgate and what do you want to happen to him?
He has managed England across two big tournaments. A semi-final and a final placement is a massive step in the right direction. Based by just looking at the placements, you would think he's done pretty good.
But look under the hood and it tells a different story.
The World Cup had England playing in one of the easiest draws I remember. They got beat by the only two good teams they played (Belgium and Croatia).
This tournament (Euro 20) lined up perfectly for Southgate yet again. Here, they beat a big nation in Germany but Southgate didn't utilize what many believe is one of the best attacking squads in the tournament and got completely schooled in the final.
So in two tournaments, Southgate's England have a pretty bad record in the games that are not against teams that they should be brushing aside.
Would you reward him for the SF and Final placements with another tournament? Or does he get the boot and someone new comes in?
There are so many things people can be happy about. No need to pretend to be happy about something that doesn‘t make you happy.I swear none of you lot are ever happy.
Ridiculous mindset.
Absolute joke of a fanbase
Are we ever happy?
Read the first line of my post bud, I'm not English nor a fan of the England national team.Hilarious. A national team coach achieves England's third World Cup semi-final appearance in history, and then their first ever finals appearance in the Euros, and what do English fans do? Look under the hood and decide it's really all shite, and due to simple luck. Fans like you truly deserve all the hurt you've been getting since 1966.
I've been watching England since the 1970s, and I think this is the first time in the last 50 years where England has looked like a legitimate top national side for a sustained period - in terms of player talent, in terms of consistency and in terms of results in big tournaments.
They have never previously reached the final four in two consecutive big tournaments, as far as I can recall. Historically, England is not a big national team, but could more accurately be considered essentially a high mid-tier team. A team that has only very rarely reached the final stages of big tournaments. By the standards of past decades, there aren't actually many teams "England should be brushing aside", and it has never, ever, been easy for anyone to reach the semis or final of a major tournament. NO national team routinely brush aside lesser opponents. Not Brazil, not Germany, no one.
We are not talking about a historically dominant national side here, but at most one whose baseline, normal, historical level is basically "mediocre +". By any tolerably sane measure, Southgate's results aren't merely promising or good, they are already exceptional. Bitching about selections and tactics and the strength of opposition is just a refusal to deal with the basic facts of the situation.
What he said - good postHilarious. A national team coach achieves England's third World Cup semi-final appearance in history, and then their first ever finals appearance in the Euros, and what do English fans do? Look under the hood and decide it's really all shite, and due to simple luck. Fans like you truly deserve all the hurt you've been getting since 1966.
I've been watching England since the 1970s, and I think this is the first time in the last 50 years where England has looked like a legitimate top national side for a sustained period - in terms of player talent, in terms of consistency and in terms of results in big tournaments.
They have never previously reached the final four in two consecutive big tournaments, as far as I can recall. Historically, England is not a big national team, but could more accurately be considered essentially a high mid-tier team. A team that has only very rarely reached the final stages of big tournaments. By the standards of past decades, there aren't actually many teams "England should be brushing aside", and it has never, ever, been easy for anyone to reach the semis or final of a major tournament. NO national team routinely brush aside lesser opponents. Not Brazil, not Germany, no one.
We are not talking about a historically dominant national side here, but at most one whose baseline, normal, historical level is basically "mediocre +". By any tolerably sane measure, Southgate's results aren't merely promising or good, they are already exceptional. Bitching about selections and tactics and the strength of opposition is just a refusal to deal with the basic facts of the situation.
Justin and Bowen started!Pickford, Maguire, Walker, TAA, Rice, Bellingham, Mount, Kane (+3) playing 532.
IMO all of the below statements are true:Read the first line of my post bud, I'm not English nor a fan of the England national team.
I even literally said this isn't a thread to bash the team (there were many of these around at the time), instead this was a thread to discuss whether people think Sir Gareth was the right man to move forward with or whether the team can go one step further with a different manager... Literally a discussion, which is the whole point of an internet forum.
Not sure why you posted with such an aggressive post there.
Would you take him as United manager over ETH? (assuming you support United)Hilarious. A national team coach achieves England's third World Cup semi-final appearance in history, and then their first ever finals appearance in the Euros, and what do English fans do? Look under the hood and decide it's really all shite, and due to simple luck. Fans like you truly deserve all the hurt you've been getting since 1966.
I've been watching England since the 1970s, and I think this is the first time in the last 50 years where England has looked like a legitimate top national side for a sustained period - in terms of player talent, in terms of consistency and in terms of results in big tournaments.
They have never previously reached the final four in two consecutive big tournaments, as far as I can recall. Historically, England is not a big national team, but could more accurately be considered essentially a high mid-tier team. A team that has only very rarely reached the final stages of big tournaments. By the standards of past decades, there aren't actually many teams "England should be brushing aside", and it has never, ever, been easy for anyone to reach the semis or final of a major tournament. NO national team routinely brush aside lesser opponents. Not Brazil, not Germany, no one.
We are not talking about a historically dominant national side here, but at most one whose baseline, normal, historical level is basically "mediocre +". By any tolerably sane measure, Southgate's results aren't merely promising or good, they are already exceptional. Bitching about selections and tactics and the strength of opposition is just a refusal to deal with the basic facts of the situation.
No, because the argument is over his credentials as an international manager, not a club manager.Would you take him as United manager over ETH? (assuming you support United)
Saying his stats are exceptional and that warrants respect. Sorry but I beg to differ, Ole had a great track record in his managerial United career in terms of league finishes compared to his predecessors (post SAF) but does that mean he is a perfect for United?
NO. Southgate has good man management skills and gives lots of confidence to his players but tactically he is inept. He has a great English talent at disposal but he is not able to harness it.
England doesnt need another average manager, if they doesnt win anything, no one will remember his good work.
Hence why I put “+3”? And after Bowen‘s season, it’s hardly a ‘wow’? And I wouldn’t be claiming Justin playing as a positive, no idea how got a game…. though I think that about Pickford too and he’s a lock.Justin and Bowen started!
No, it's not his "stats" that are exceptional. It's the results. Both in tournaments and out of them. So, clearly he has some ability to harness the talent at his disposal. Unlike a many of his predecessors. Golden generation, anyone? That glorious band of occasional quarterfinalists?Would you take him as United manager over ETH? (assuming you support United)
Saying his stats are exceptional and that warrants respect. Sorry but I beg to differ, Ole had a great track record in his managerial United career in terms of league finishes compared to his predecessors (post SAF) but does that mean he is a perfect for United?
NO. Southgate has good man management skills and gives lots of confidence to his players but tactically he is inept. He has a great English talent at disposal but he is not able to harness it.
England doesnt need another average manager, if they doesnt win anything, no one will remember his good work.
That's like saying that if the Everton manager doesn't win trophies, they should be sacked. It's the definition of unreasonable.England doesnt need another average manager, if they doesnt win anything, no one will remember his good work.
No it's not.Squad is average so getting to semis and finals is doing ok in my book.
Two players is hardly experimenting and it's only because they're forced... Doubt Bowen would have played had Foden been available or Sterling fully fit. Likewise Justin with Shaw/Chilwell.Justin and Bowen started!
We lined up that way because Southgate is an idiot though. And Germany outplaying England is also obviously tied to Southgate himself.This is how we lined up yesterday
Pickford
Trippier
Maguire
Stones
Walker
Phillips
Rice
Sterling
Mount
Saka
Kane
Not one of those names strikes fear into an opponent. Maguire is in atrocious form, most of the City lot can't get in their own team, Kane isn't the Kane we remember, and the rest are frankly mid table plodders.
In addition to Brazil and France I would be worried about playing any of the following:
Netherlands - their defence is outstanding.
Argentina - no explanation needed.
Germany - literally just outplayed us and a soft penalty saved a loss.
Spain - as good or better in every position.
Portugal - about the same level
Senegal - can give anybody a game
Not in every position, but in areas of the pitch there's a big gulf in quality. Netherlands have a fantastic group of defenders, France have a world class midfield and attack, Brazil have world class forwards, so on and so forth. England have some very good RBs, but their defence is otherwise pretty ordinary with a mediocre keeper, OK centre backs and inconsistent left backs. The midfield is also a concern when stacked against some of the better midfields in international football (and there's quite a few of them, Italy schooling Phillips and Rice in the second half of the Euros final was testament to that).How many countries have world class players in every position? Not even France do.
The poor players are in their prime, the squad fillers. The top players are virtually all worse now than they were. Grealish, Rice and Sterling are probably the only ones near the same level.Did we? Not sure this squad needs the likes of Phil Jones, Delph, Cahill, Welbeck from 2018. The players are basically the same and far more in their prime now than in 2018.
I’m not really sure who you’re referring to that seemed to make the 2018 and 2020 squads so much better than this one. Henderson and the 2020 version of Shaw, but they will both be available for the WC.
Walker is a champsions league finalist for one of the best defences in the league. Same with Stones. Rice strikers FEAR. Sterling has always troubled defences and is a proven internaitonal threat. Mount was instrumental in winning the CL. Kane is Kane. its no worse than any other big side but we have more options. This wasn't our best line up.This is how we lined up yesterday
Pickford
Trippier
Maguire
Stones
Walker
Phillips
Rice
Sterling
Mount
Saka
Kane
Not one of those names strikes fear into an opponent. Maguire is in atrocious form, most of the City lot can't get in their own team, Kane isn't the Kane we remember, and the rest are frankly mid table plodders.
In addition to Brazil and France I would be worried about playing any of the following:
Netherlands - their defence is outstanding.
Argentina - no explanation needed.
Germany - literally just outplayed us and a soft penalty saved a loss.
Spain - as good or better in every position.
Portugal - about the same level
Senegal - can give anybody a game
Was a CL finalist. Was, for all those things you mention really. We had a good team that could have won something, if we had a decent manager. We don't anymore.Walker is a champsions league finalist for one of the best defences in the league. Same with Stones. Rice strikers FEAR. Sterling has always troubled defences and is a proven internaitonal threat. Mount was instrumental in winning the CL. Kane is Kane. its no worse than any other big side but we have more options. This wasn't our best line up.
I think he's underperforming given the quality at his disposal. But I also find that he comes across as so simple and superficial whenever he opens his mouth. The sheer amount of quality England produces is to blame that he's still in his job.We have a weird mentality in England. There are so many fans who feel aggrieved if anyone dares to complain. Not sure where it comes from but think it's culturally filtered down from the 'keep calm and carry on' 'salvation army' mentality from the second world war, stiff upper lip and all that. I think it's arguable that this prevailing miserable culture of 'be grateful for what you're given!' is an element in why we still have Southgate as a boss, and most of all, why we never win feck all. Countries that actually win things, like Spain, Italy, Germany... Have a short shrift in how much mediocrity they will tolerate, before they do something like, y'know, appointing treble winning Hansi Flick as their boss, or Luis Enrique. Meanwhile we all know that England will come up against the first half decent team, 'heroically' defend for their lives despite being gassed from.chasing the ball for 80 minutes and maybe make it to penalties to meet the inevitable exit and countless tearjerking documentaries about the time they 'almost' made it. If I was a fan outside England, i'd find it fecking funny, think they do actually. It's the repeating opera.
The turnips in here who are terrified of anyone complaining incase their national neurosis gets triggered, Christ. It's bloody obvious he's not a good enough manager for that squad, vast majority of neutral foreign fans would agree.
I agree but if anything isn't that all the more reason to make the games a bit more fun? Especially against the lesser sides.Southgate is a nothing manager but I think many are overrating this group of England players. The only position I'd say they're world class in is RB. every other position is average or good at best. The English sporting media's wankfest over the likes of Grealish and Foden is completely unfounded IMO.
Even with a better manager I wouldn't have them as favourites for the World Cup.
Hopefully he'll have his Liverpool at home moment against Italy or Germany in this nations league as opposed to the world cup.The International Olle. God he must have been a savior in his previous life. Awful manager. Probably Brentford level at the very best.
atleast nine will start the first WC game if fit, possibly all of them.Walker is a champsions league finalist for one of the best defences in the league. Same with Stones. Rice strikers FEAR. Sterling has always troubled defences and is a proven internaitonal threat. Mount was instrumental in winning the CL. Kane is Kane. its no worse than any other big side but we have more options. This wasn't our best line up.
Yeah, it is fecking obvious that he isn't nearly good enough. I think maybe people are also so used to the mediocrity of results in past tournaments that they just can't get beyond the simplistic "We made a semi-final and final so he must be good enough or deserves another shot" type of thinking. Of course results are what it is about in the end but its future results that matter. And process - how well you play - is more predictive of future results than past results.We have a weird mentality in England. There are so many fans who feel aggrieved if anyone dares to complain. Not sure where it comes from but think it's culturally filtered down from the 'keep calm and carry on' 'salvation army' mentality from the second world war, stiff upper lip and all that. I think it's arguable that this prevailing miserable culture of 'be grateful for what you're given!' is an element in why we still have Southgate as a boss, and most of all, why we never win feck all. Countries that actually win things, like Spain, Italy, Germany... Have a short shrift in how much mediocrity they will tolerate, before they do something like, y'know, appointing treble winning Hansi Flick as their boss, or Luis Enrique. Meanwhile we all know that England will come up against the first half decent team, 'heroically' defend for their lives despite being gassed from.chasing the ball for 80 minutes and maybe make it to penalties to meet the inevitable exit and countless tearjerking documentaries about the time they 'almost' made it. If I was a fan outside England, i'd find it fecking funny, think they do actually. It's the repeating opera.
The turnips in here who are terrified of anyone complaining incase their national neurosis gets triggered, Christ. It's bloody obvious he's not a good enough manager for that squad, vast majority of neutral foreign fans would agree.
I'd compare current England side more with us United than Everton. If Everton manager with premium talent at his disposal cannot manage them to challenge or win then yes, he should be sacked.That's like saying that if the Everton manager doesn't win trophies, they should be sacked. It's the definition of unreasonable.
It's also difficult to find international mangers as it's a not that active throughout the year and top managers are at clubs. You mention Flick and Enrique but they obviously have ties and desires to their country and already won a lot a club level. England doesn't produce managers like them. We could try to tempt someone more progressive like Potter but it's a gamble for him as well and he might not feel ready, We simply don't have one let alone a stock of countrymen to pick. Italy again have a countryman in Mancini, a top manager that has won before.We have a weird mentality in England. There are so many fans who feel aggrieved if anyone dares to complain. Not sure where it comes from but think it's culturally filtered down from the 'keep calm and carry on' 'salvation army' mentality from the second world war, stiff upper lip and all that. I think it's arguable that this prevailing miserable culture of 'be grateful for what you're given!' is an element in why we still have Southgate as a boss, and most of all, why we never win feck all. Countries that actually win things, like Spain, Italy, Germany... Have a short shrift in how much mediocrity they will tolerate, before they do something like, y'know, appointing treble winning Hansi Flick as their boss, or Luis Enrique. Meanwhile we all know that England will come up against the first half decent team, 'heroically' defend for their lives despite being gassed from.chasing the ball for 80 minutes and maybe make it to penalties to meet the inevitable exit and countless tearjerking documentaries about the time they 'almost' made it. If I was a fan outside England, i'd find it fecking funny, think they do actually. It's the repeating opera.
The turnips in here who are terrified of anyone complaining incase their national neurosis gets triggered, Christ. It's bloody obvious he's not a good enough manager for that squad, vast majority of neutral foreign fans would agree.
That is at least partly a problem of his own making though.He`s got good options in the attacking positions but Pickford, Maguire, Coady, Mings are crap, Rice, Phillips and Henderson are limited so for me the defensive spine is extremely flakey.
He's the one picking those players.He`s got good options in the attacking positions but Pickford, Maguire, Coady, Mings are crap, Rice, Phillips and Henderson are limited so for me the defensive spine is extremely flakey.
Only if England had been dominating international competitions for 2 decades and had 60+ trophies....I'd compare current England side more with us United than Everton. If Everton manager with premium talent at his disposal cannot manage them to challenge or win then yes, he should be sacked.
I don't see how these things have changed in one season? City just won the league and were minutes from the CL final having outplayed the eventual champs. Are we pretending all their players are washed now?Was a CL finalist. Was, for all those things you mention really. We had a good team that could have won something, if we had a decent manager. We don't anymore.
It's Sven in 2006 all over again.
in the world cup everyone acknowledged we had one of the strongest squads. What has changed?atleast nine will start the first WC game if fit, possibly all of them.
History is good for stats, however it doesn't help the present and future. Also I am talking more about personnel in these teams not comparing their history. Are you saying the current England and Everton squads are on similar level in terms of talent?Only if England had been dominating international competitions for 2 decades and had 60+ trophies....
A lot of their English contingent have struggled for game time this season as they have lost form. Same with ours.I don't see how these things have changed in one season? City just won the league and were minutes from the CL final having outplayed the eventual champs. Are we pretending all their players are washed now?