So what's next for Sir Gareth Southgate?

[TwoSheds]

In his first couple of years in the job Southgate did it better than anyone else could have. He transformed a toxic, miserable culture into one where the players worked for each other, enjoyed their football, and projected a good image to the world. He's a lot to recommend him as a person and he was exactly what England needed at the time.

Since the WC semi-final loss he's not been the best man for the job. He's an impossibly negative manager in a footballing sense and is wasting the attacking talents of one of the best generations of English attackers there's ever been.

The idea he got a new massive contract after that final loss is baffling to me. Went a goal up within minutes, no Spinazzola for Italy, at that point if you keep Chiesa and Insigne quiet and score another goal it's job done. We played another 120 mins of football without a shot on target. That is a laughable outcome from that game and it was pretty clear that England could go no further under his leadership. I think it's only going to get more clear as time goes on as some of his key players seem to have gone right off the boil and many others don't really seem to believe / enjoy themselves like they used to.

Tripper playing LB yesterday with the likes of James and Trent sat on the bench when you need a goal is the exact type of shit he won't get away with as time goes on IMO. Everyone's luck runs out eventually.

 

[Dancfc]

We have a weird mentality in England. There are so many fans who feel aggrieved if anyone dares to complain. Not sure where it comes from but think it's culturally filtered down from the 'keep calm and carry on' 'salvation army' mentality from the second world war, stiff upper lip and all that. I think it's arguable that this prevailing miserable culture of 'be grateful for what you're given!' is an element in why we still have Southgate as a boss, and most of all, why we never win feck all. Countries that actually win things, like Spain, Italy, Germany... Have a short shrift in how much mediocrity they will tolerate, before they do something like, y'know, appointing treble winning Hansi Flick as their boss, or Luis Enrique. Meanwhile we all know that England will come up against the first half decent team, 'heroically' defend for their lives despite being gassed from.chasing the ball for 80 minutes and maybe make it to penalties to meet the inevitable exit and countless tearjerking documentaries about the time they 'almost' made it. If I was a fan outside England, i'd find it fecking funny, think they do actually. It's the repeating opera.

The turnips in here who are terrified of anyone complaining incase their national neurosis gets triggered, Christ. It's bloody obvious he's not a good enough manager for that squad, vast majority of neutral foreign fans would agree.

You also see it when you compare what English club fans will put up with compared to what we see in Spain, Italy etc.

Could you imagine Real, Barca, Milan or Munich fans if they were subjected to Ole/Arteta or players like Maguire/Xhaka? Even the owners of both clubs get it pretty easy when you think of what they'd get from those fanbases. Luckily with us we haven't had an owner willing to exploit it (hopefully still don't) but there was a section of Chelsea fans that would have happily took relegation if it meant keeping Jose after his collapse and then Frank.

 

[UweBein]

I think you can appreciate and applaud Southgate's achievements and still criticise him.
He has brought England back on the map of relevant football nations, no question about that.

However, if you look how other nations won international championships then it seems like he is following more the examples of Greece & Portugal than that of Spain & Germany.

I think there is not much between England and France in the way they play. But France has the recent track record of success which they can rely on.

The people that highlight the shortcomings of the squad can't be serious. It is a pretty good squad - you have to play better than that against Germany and Hungary. Southgate has even the luxury of being able to call players from Bundesliga and Serie A.

 

[georgipep]

History is good for stats, however it doesn't help the present and future. Also I am talking more about personnel in these teams not comparing their history. Are you saying the current England and Everton squads are on similar level in terms of talent?

Compared to their competition, yes

 

[Stacks]

A lot of their English contingent have struggled for game time this season as they have lost form. Same with ours.

Other national teams pick players who are out of form as people get picked off of name. International football is different and I feel our players could thrive at that pace. Sterling will always be a problem regardless if he plays. I feel Grealish could have an impact too as its slower paced.

 

[justsomebloke]

The poor players are in their prime, the squad fillers. The top players are virtually all worse now than they were. Grealish, Rice and Sterling are probably the only ones near the same level.

We could have played something like this in the Euro 2020 final and probably won:

Pickford - same player
Walker - older and falling out of the City team now
Maguire - much worse now
Stones - fallen out of the City team
Shaw - worse now
Rice
Henderson - getting old
Sterling - dropped off lately
Rashford - worse now, if he even goes to Qatar
Sancho - will he even go
Kane - worse now

Virtually every position is worse now than it was a couple of years ago. Some players have just aged, whilst some have lost form or ability.

Except of course Alexander-Arnold, James, Saka, Foden....

 

[Verward]

Compared to their competition, yes

Well I don't agree, but to each his own.

 

[Samid]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[moses]

Ah he's gotten ye to a final and a semi final? These are basically friendlies.

 

[Emperor]

Knockout by Yanks & mighty Wales.

 

[Adisa]

Poor man's Ole.

 

[P-Nut]

Aren't these the last internationals before the world cup as well? Gunna be going in with some horrible form

 

[m1tch]

Far better managers than he have been scrutinised far more. I bet every manager in the world wishes they knew his secret.

 

[V.O.]

Well, no matter how shite and negative he plays, he'll struggle not to get past Wales, USA, Iran and then one of Qatar/Ecuador/Senegal - and that quarter-final appearance should be enough to keep him around until Euro 2024.

 

[WeePat]

You also see it when you compare what English club fans will put up with compared to what we see in Spain, Italy etc.

Could you imagine Real, Barca, Milan or Munich fans if they were subjected to Ole/Arteta or players like Maguire/Xhaka? Even the owners of both clubs get it pretty easy when you think of what they'd get from those fanbases. Luckily with us we haven't had an owner willing to exploit it (hopefully still don't) but there was a section of Chelsea fans that would have happily took relegation if it meant keeping Jose after his collapse and then Frank.

Many fans literally said this. For both managers. It's the internet though, and online sentiment doesn't always represent actual genuinely held views.

 

[horsechoker]

Get Rangnick in!

 

[Canucantona20]

Get Rangnick in!

He would be better than southgate

 

[InspiRED]

Team selection was better tonight, but that is after the entire media basically said ‘stop playing 7-2-1 Gareth’. Will make it seem like he can’t win but if 7-2-1 is his thing, he should stick to it regardless of who tells him they don’t like it. You never see top coaches kowtowing to popular opinion. He did distinctly uncomfortable with the team playing possession with the back four up at the halfway line. He’s not an awful manager, he did well with the first World Cup as that was prob best way to set up for that tournament. He brought a good feeling back to the squad, but his instinct is always going to be to stodge up the park in any pressure game. Obviously limited manager blessed with a very good squad. Love how this point of view upsets some people who it’s not even their team, can’t remember last time I gave a shite about say what Wales fans thought of their manager… jeez

 

[Jeppers7]

Ah he's gotten ye to a final and a semi final? These are basically friendlies.

I’d argue the draws got us to both.

 

[Flexdegea]

Insane he keeps getting a crack at this squad and a team full of talent which is matching most international squads.

Any one worth their salt would defo maximise the playing on the pitch. Always feel like they winning games because of their quality and not because of anything he is doing.


great because he more likely piss this opportunity away once the penny drops with everyone and mostly the media they messed up their best chance to win something big.

 

[Pretzels81]

World Cup semis, then retirement, Xmas 2022.

 

[cj_sparky]

Aren't these the last internationals before the world cup as well? Gunna be going in with some horrible form

Hungary on Tuesday. Then Germany and Italy in September.

 

[MalaysianRed7]

I always support England internationally alongside Malaysia because I’m a resident here and it’s the country where the club I support play in, but I sometimes want to fall asleep watching England. Horrifically boring. Southgate has the best England side since 2006, yet he cannot get a tune out of them whatsoever. The team aren’t even exactly organised either - Declan Rice lost the new Italian lad more today than he lost his man for West Ham all season combined. As a collective, if you’re playing like that against the B team of a country who failed to even qualify for the World Cup, you shouldn’t think about winning the tournament itself.

Once again, England can only derive hope from getting improbably easy draws compared to other teams in the group stage (mission accomplished), quarter and semi finals (Sweden and Ukraine in the previous two quarter finals ). There’ll hopefully a few Harry Kane penalties and Maguire set piece goals to help them on their way too.

If Netherlands and Senegal progress from group A as expected, England will out by their 4th game no matter who they play.

 

[Dancfc]

Many fans literally said this. For both managers. It's the internet though, and online sentiment doesn't always represent actual genuinely held views.

With Jose I think it was even more extreme at the ground (as we saw the game after he was sacked). Online I was happy to make my view (that I feel we had to move on) known but it didn't feel safe (safe is probably the wrong word but for want of a better one) to express the same in the field so to speak.

When it went south with Lamps there was obviously no crowd at that point but the "circus continues" banner planted outside with the creator of that moaning about how him and Jody were used gives an insight as to what the atmosphere would have been like for the Wolves game (Rudiger, Jorginho and a couple of others would have probably got both barrels and I can't imagine Tuchel would have got the warmest of welcomes either).

 

[Charles Miller]

Playing this way is unnecessary. But if the FA is ok with that style, they should hire a more accomplished manager to do this job. Mourinho, for instance.

 

[Bepi]

Folks, be kind: I am giving a flat assessment as an Italian fan, and an admirer of Southgate’s pragmatism.

Southgate *needs* to play that defensive imho because England’s back four + the resident gk are terrible both individually and as a unit (compared to Spain, Germany, etc.)… as such, always one or two fast transitions away from the kickstart of a disaster a la Brazil - Germany 1-7. That’s why he also needs two DMs just ahead of them.

In fact, Pickford is an emotional gk in perennial need of reassurance; Walker is a donkey; Maguire & Stones are too slow to keep the line higher than 20 meters from their own box; and Shaw is decent at times, yet emotional as feck.

The only realistic way to keep your machine together, without exposing the inner, fatal flaw, is to play it as tight and slow as possible, just hoping the front three & Kane come up with a stroke or two to win the game (invariably from set pieces, headers, isolated runs by Sterling or another random AM assisting Kane).

Will England go far in the WC, relying upon such a basic, limited system? Yes, sure, they are doing it already in a consistent manner. Will they win the WC? Get there in the semis again first… then, up your hands & good luck.

 

[Withnail]

Here's to many long and happy years of Sir Gareth at the helm of good ship England.

 

[Tyrion]

Poor man's Ole.

Which is probably about par at international level.

 

[tenpoless]

I find it funny how people including England supporters call him the poor mans Ole or similar level to Ole and yet the country decided to give him the title Sir. Is that title a joke title or what? I wonder how many Sirs have actually done something great in relation to the resources they had. I mean if someone built a multi million business that helps creating jobs but he had 1 billion available to spend its not very impressive is it?

 

[Gazza]

I find it funny how people including England supporters call him the poor mans Ole or similar level to Ole and yet the country decided to give him the title Sir. Is that title a joke title or what? I wonder how many Sirs have actually done something great in relation to the resources they had. I mean if someone built a multi million business that helps creating jobs but he had 1 billion available to spend its not very impressive is it?

He's not actually a sir, he has an OBE

 

[NoPace]

Team selection was better tonight, but that is after the entire media basically said ‘stop playing 7-2-1 Gareth’. Will make it seem like he can’t win but if 7-2-1 is his thing, he should stick to it regardless of who tells him they don’t like it. You never see top coaches kowtowing to popular opinion. He did distinctly uncomfortable with the team playing possession with the back four up at the halfway line. He’s not an awful manager, he did well with the first World Cup as that was prob best way to set up for that tournament. He brought a good feeling back to the squad, but his instinct is always going to be to stodge up the park in any pressure game. Obviously limited manager blessed with a very good squad. Love how this point of view upsets some people who it’s not even their team, can’t remember last time I gave a shite about say what Wales fans thought of their manager… jeez

The dialetical approach here is to play 5 at the back (probably only really possible to do well if Chilwell is back) but Foden in a midfield 2 with Rice and then Bowen on the right, Kane up top and I have no idea who on the left really.

I think England were lucky with their draw last time but this time, it looks like Senegal/Netherlands, France and then Germany or Portugal. Maybe Southgate gets lucky again and it's Senegal-Denmark-Uruguay but you can't really count on that, and I don't think hoping for 4 tight wins is the way to play it.

England are crying out for someone who can play the ball deep in midfield and I don't see anyone but Foden who could even dream of doing it.

I guess Qatar has tech to make it not insanely hot/humid there, but if it is, Southgate needs to have a plan where England actually have the ball. That can be done with 5 at the back, but not with Rice and anyone but a magician next him.

 

[Reapersoul20]

Best manager in world football. England lucky to have him. Definitely do not get rid before the World Cup.

 

[TwoSheds]

Folks, be kind: I am giving a flat assessment as an Italian fan, and an admirer of Southgate’s pragmatism.

Southgate *needs* to play that defensive imho because England’s back four + the resident gk are terrible both individually and as a unit (compared to Spain, Germany, etc.)… as such, always one or two fast transitions away from the kickstart of a disaster a la Brazil - Germany 1-7. That’s why he also needs two DMs just ahead of them.

In fact, Pickford is an emotional gk in perennial need of reassurance; Walker is a donkey; Maguire & Stones are too slow to keep the line higher than 20 meters from their own box; and Shaw is decent at times, yet emotional as feck.

The only realistic way to keep your machine together, without exposing the inner, fatal flaw, is to play it as tight and slow as possible, just hoping the front three & Kane come up with a stroke or two to win the game (invariably from set pieces, headers, isolated runs by Sterling or another random AM assisting Kane).

Will England go far in the WC, relying upon such a basic, limited system? Yes, sure, they are doing it already in a consistent manner. Will they win the WC? Get there in the semis again first… then, up your hands & good luck.

Choosing that back 4 is Gareth Southgate's decision. Choosing Tripper at LB repeatedly is also his decision. I don't think anyone else on earth outside of Trippier's mum thinks he should start there. He's probably the 4th/5th best RB in the squad and he's definitely not a LB yet somehow is currently 1st choice there. Just bizarre - call up an actual LB Gareth if you don't rate Justin. We don't need 4 RBs, never mind 5.

Personally I'd be tempted to go 442 with this team to try to minimise the number of shite CBs and CMs you have to play. Something like:

Pickford
Walker Maguire Tomori James
Sterling Rice Phillips Grealish
Kane Bowen/Tammy/Rashford (form and fitness deciding who)

You still get your functional DMs in there that Southgate loves, your defensive RB, but Kane going and dropping into midfield all the time will be less annoying because he won't be getting in anyone's way at no.10, you've freed up your wingers to go and attack because there's a solid platform in the middle, and you've got pace in behind with the other striker who can also pull out wide at times as well. It would still be a fairly boring team but with goal threat from LB, RW and the 2 forwards.

The other way to go would be to have 5 at the back but be more adventurous e.g.

Pickford
------James Tomori Walker
Trent ---Rice--Mount/Gallagher--LB (Chilwell/Shaw/Mitchell)
Sterling Kane Grealish

Arguably you've now got goal threat from even more positions as James and Trent can both score and create plus you've Sterling, Kane and Gallagher.

 

[P-Nut]

Choosing that back 4 is Gareth Southgate's decision. Choosing Tripper at LB repeatedly is also his decision. I don't think anyone else on earth outside of Trippier's mum thinks he should start there. He's probably the 4th/5th best RB in the squad and he's definitely not a LB yet somehow is currently 1st choice there. Just bizarre - call up an actual LB Gareth if you don't rate Justin. We don't need 4 RBs, never mind 5.

Personally I'd be tempted to go 442 with this team to try to minimise the number of shite CBs and CMs you have to play. Something like:

Pickford
Walker Maguire Tomori James
Sterling Rice Phillips Grealish
Kane Bowen/Tammy/Rashford (form and fitness deciding who)

You still get your functional DMs in there that Southgate loves, your defensive RB, but Kane going and dropping into midfield all the time will be less annoying because he won't be getting in anyone's way at no.10, you've freed up your wingers to go and attack because there's a solid platform in the middle, and you've got pace in behind with the other striker who can also pull out wide at times as well. It would still be a fairly boring team but with goal threat from LB, RW and the 2 forwards.

The other way to go would be to have 5 at the back but be more adventurous e.g.

Pickford
------James Tomori Walker
Trent ---Rice--Mount/Gallagher--LB (Chilwell/Shaw/Mitchell)
Sterling Kane Grealish

Arguably you've now got goal threat from even more positions as James and Trent can both score and create plus you've Sterling, Kane and Gallagher.

Surely Bellingham gets in to both those sides over Phillips, Mount or Gallagher

 

[TwoSheds]

Surely Bellingham gets in to both those sides over Phillips, Mount or Gallagher

Meh, he's playing for Dortmund, he hasn't made it yet. Not against the idea but I think Gallagher is currently better personally. I suppose I'm also picking a team where I could just about see Southgate being press ganged into it, not sure Bellingham in a 2 man midfield counts for that really.

 

[moses]

I’d argue the draws got us to both.

You could say it was the draw, but I think it's all a bit coincidental. The truth is international football is always kind to bigger nations, you just previously never took advantage of that.

 

[InspiRED]

Folks, be kind: I am giving a flat assessment as an Italian fan, and an admirer of Southgate’s pragmatism.

Southgate *needs* to play that defensive imho because England’s back four + the resident gk are terrible both individually and as a unit (compared to Spain, Germany, etc.)… as such, always one or two fast transitions away from the kickstart of a disaster a la Brazil - Germany 1-7. That’s why he also needs two DMs just ahead of them.

In fact, Pickford is an emotional gk in perennial need of reassurance; Walker is a donkey; Maguire & Stones are too slow to keep the line higher than 20 meters from their own box; and Shaw is decent at times, yet emotional as feck.

The only realistic way to keep your machine together, without exposing the inner, fatal flaw, is to play it as tight and slow as possible, just hoping the front three & Kane come up with a stroke or two to win the game (invariably from set pieces, headers, isolated runs by Sterling or another random AM assisting Kane).

Will England go far in the WC, relying upon such a basic, limited system? Yes, sure, they are doing it already in a consistent manner. Will they win the WC? Get there in the semis again first… then, up your hands & good luck.

This is so well put

 

[NoPace]

I never realized how painfully one-footed Ward-Prowse is. Maybe that's why he's never got his big move.

 

[Abraxas]

Southgate has done well on results, lets be honest about that. Griping over LBs, play style or particular inclusions or habits he has such as the perennial late subs doesn't take away from that. You're measured on results and he's done that pretty well.

But I still can't get my head around the new contract. What on earth was the need? Nobody is queuing up to rip him away from the FA. Wasn't the logical thing to give him the WC and assess? What if England completely flop at the world cup, not scoring a goal and getting knocked out in the group, are we still wedded to Southgate?

Weird, sometimes even when the manager has done okay you need a new voice.

 

[SilentWitness]

The media, punditry and fan hatred towards Pickford is really bizarre. Aside from Sterling he’s probably been the best player for England since 2018. He consistently shows up in tournaments. He’s made for them.