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Some praise for Jose
- Thread starter TheReligion
- Start date
THIS!
I think this is lost on so many.
It sounds stupid but picking the best players isn't always the best option, forcing the best players to reach their full potential is.
You can't win with some people.
Probably the same people that were going mad for Rooney to be dropped after a run of poor games, yet when Martial is dropped for same reason it's a travesty and poor management.
Probably the same people that were going mad for Rooney to be dropped after a run of poor games, yet when Martial is dropped for same reason it's a travesty and poor management.
One of the problems of course (as has been pointed out numerous times) is that this place is up and down like schizoid yo-yo. Lose to Everton on Sunday then we'll see the standard machine gun bumping of all the negative threads once again.
Care to explain how it wasn't 4-2-3-1 cause it seemed to me it was an exactly the same formation as till now.
Just saw @MILLHILLMANC's post.
Till now we usually played with 2 mids, one nr. 10 which was usually Mata, 2 wingers and a striker. That's how we played yesterday with Rooney instead of Mata.
In some tuffer games we played with 3 center mids. Like vs Arsenal with Carrick, Herrera and Pogba.
Yesterday was nothing new in formation sense.
My point is that you claim this thread is based on just one game.
Btw this isn't my thread so don't know what you mean.
Really, I was just talking a bit of junk. If 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-1-1 are different I suppose it would be that the wingers in the latter are lower down the pitch. But that wasn't the case against West Ham: they were actually playing further forward, closer to Wet Ham's 3 CBs, more like CFs than wingers.
We are barely into December.....
So what?
Look, I know what you're intimating.However our improvement and league placing depends on the ones above having a blip.It could happen and I hope it does but it doesn't excuse JM for some downright barmy behaviour and selections
We didn't excuse Moyes or LVG for that. Why should one of the world's highest paid coaches get a free ride?
I don't see what's barmy about his selections though. It is common for a coach to experiment and find his most suitable team for certain tactics. It's not science of course but you still need to test and try your squad. What works at home may not work away. What works with Arsenal may not with Liverpool. Plus you have injuries and players settling. It is only common sense. Fergie used to experiment a lot. People say he earned it, but regardless it's still an essential part of building a Football team. All managers do it.
Real life Football isn't a video game where you choose the players with the best stats for each position and get on with things. For a complex dynamic system like Football with many parts it can take many iterations to find suitable structure and tactics.
You might say that other teams are doing better but so what? The league goes on till May. I don't understand the constant moaning. After chopping and changing managers for the last three years with clearly different ideas, why should we expect immediate success and gelling. History is replete with examples, not just in Football where change management is important and organizations often stumbled through a period of transition.
Fans talk of a club with an illustrious history of a century but go ape-shit over a bad run of two months.
Maybe you didn't excuse Moyes or LVG. But I and many others did, at least for longer than 4 months. And excuse isn't even the right word, it's about knowing that success and growth isn't linear and straightforward and simply being patient, accepting that we need time for anything to develop. What is the point of constant moaning and criticism? What happened to encouragement and constructive support?
Sir Alex took 5-6 years to build his own team. Even if fans are more impatient and short-sighted now doesn't mean that teams dont need time to develop.
And why do fans seem to assume that we have a right to be winning games and challenging for the title this year? We may have the squad for it but the facts are that we are some distance from being a title challenging team.
Don't be mistaken, I am not saying that we should accept mediocrity or being mid-table. Far from it. We have gone through three managerial changes and perhaps it is time to let this manager do what he thinks is necessary to haul the team back to success. And that includes letting him find his best team, his best tactics and his best way of managing. We will know at the end of the season if there is progress or if it is good enough.
You can excuse his last 2 stints all you want. The reality is he lost the players at both real and chelsea. Basically that same chelsea team is leading the league atm.
The best thing he has done - and Moyes and LvG were not willing to do - is drop big names who weren't performing or showing a poor attitude. Everyone in this team knows they have to turn up for work now.
The club will give him time and they should. But I would not rule out us winning the league even from here. We just need to win all of our games against the top 4 sides.
Player power like that is usually symptomatic of a rot IMHO. The sides that punch above their weight don't let the players call the shots like that. You can hide it for a while with expensive signings but it's still there.
Firstly, all teams have blips. Ie. a few losses/draws in a row. When this happens, we will close the gap. 4th place is now our target, which definitely doable.
And regarding his behaviour - the guy kicked a water bottle. If you know anything about football, that is a nothing incident. I do wonder if any manager has been sent off for kicking a water bottle, before (does anybody know the answer to this)?
Indeed. But we weren't talking about sacking the manager after 13 league games.
We have improved massively and our style of play has been impressive, compared to last season. The problem is that we are not finishing chances and Jose cannot be blamed here.
Right now, I look forward to our games, excited at the prospect of us scoring 4 goals. When we don't, I get disappointed.
In comparison, last season, scoring 4 goals was nearly impossible, unless we were playing Midgetland.
Do people remember what our gameplay was like last season? It was boring, slow, risk-averse and unexciting. None of these words describe our style of play, under Jose.
In summary, we've seen massive improvements in only a few months (see my points above) and I am looking forward to the improvements we shall see in the next few months.
I'm just waiting for the Jose is a dick threads if we drop points to Everton.
A bit unsure as to what you mean? The core of that real side went on to win 2 champions league? The core of the same chelsea side has just won 8 in a row?
I think it's undeniable that he lost the dressing room at both Real and Chelsea and both teams benefited from his departure.
This is true.
But I think you are focusing on the negative (only), here.
On the plus side, before he loses the dressing room, he wins trophies for that club...everytime. He did this for both the clubs, we are talking about - CFC and Madrid. In fact, he is CFC's most winningest manager in their history. CFC complaining/sacking manager would be the equivalent of MUFC sacking Fergie, after he won more trophies for us than any other manager in our club's history.
You are also forgetting the players power in Madrid and CFC is very high. Those players can get their manager fired. At MUFC, I don't see that happening. In fact, under Jose, I think it's more likely that players will be sacked/sold, than the manager. Now, if Jose loses the fans....well that'll be a problem. And if the results are bad, it'll be a huge problem which will see him sacked (just as we saw with LVG, before him).
Currently, I am more harsh on players than on Jose, because these players have already stunk up the place for the last 2 seasons, so our bunch of darlings aren't as good as some our fans think. Now, if this team won heaps of trophies and then Jose had a Jose vs The players battle, I'd back the players...just as I backed our team of Champions when Moyes was here. I owed loyalty to the players who previously won us trophies, not to Moyes who won us nothing.
For the first time in a long time, I am really excited about things going forward. Jose has reminded me that this kind of optimism comes from the manager and stability, not because we sign Di Maria or whoever. Just like under Fergie, the real feeling of confidence and optimism was due to the man in charge.
We may not win the league this season, but Mourinho has quickly attacked key issues at the club, and it is largely the intangibles. The press and others talk like it's a computer game. 'United need better players'. But we've been throwing money down the drain for years now, but it's becoming clearer that we would not return to being 'United' until we started from the top.
Mourinho has made the squad hungry again. Rooney was a golden elephant who no manager dared to challenge, and was declining at an alarming rate. Jose has taken him head on within a couple of months, and Rooney, to his credit, has responded very well. He has gotten the maximum out of the likes of Mata and Valencia, and taken those to task who were not pulling their weight. All seem to be responding positively too, and the squad will be better for it in the long run to get this wake up call. Martial and Mkhitaryan appear to have been reprogrammed over the past month or two, and hopefully now go on to perform as we know they can. I'm still waiting for him to complete his work with Shaw.
He's put the belief into the likes of Jones and Rojo too. I think e foundation is being laid for something very good. Not only do we have a collection of talented footballers, but I'm seeing the evolution into the sort of 'machines' that Jose has always had. I think in 12 months time, we will be up there at the very top. We still need a bit more, and we are nowhere near as ruthless as Mourinho teams, but fundamentally, it seems the players respect and believe in him, and are willing to run through walls for him if needed.
We may not win the league this season, but Mourinho has quickly attacked key issues at the club, and it is largely the intangibles. The press and others talk like it's a computer game. 'United need better players'. But we've been throwing money down the drain for years now, but it's becoming clearer that we would not return to being 'United' until we started from the top.
Mourinho has made the squad hungry again. Rooney was a golden elephant who no manager dared to challenge, and was declining at an alarming rate. Jose has taken him head on within a couple of months, and Rooney, to his credit, has responded very well. He has gotten the maximum out of the likes of Mata and Valencia, and taken those to task who were not pulling their weight. All seem to be responding positively too, and the squad will be better for it in the long run to get this wake up call. Martial and Mkhitaryan appear to have been reprogrammed over the past month or two, and hopefully now go on to perform as we know they can. I'm still waiting for him to complete his work with Shaw.
He's put the belief into the likes of Jones and Rojo too. I think e foundation is being laid for something very good. Not only do we have a collection of talented footballers, but I'm seeing the evolution into the sort of 'machines' that Jose has always had. I think in 12 months time, we will be up there at the very top. We still need a bit more, and we are nowhere near as ruthless as Mourinho teams, but fundamentally, it seems the players respect and believe in him, and are willing to run through walls for him if needed.
Good post, I completely agree. It really is there for all to see.
I suppose I mean that you'd expect that level of performance from those sides, given the players they have. But if you want players to be much more than the sum of their parts, e.g Leicester e.g Dortmund e.g Inter you need everyone on the same page with the manager.
First up let me say again that I fully support Mourinho. I've said elsewhere that it's almost inconceivable that Id want him gone before next season, it's hard to imagine the extent of failure this season that would push me to change my mind on that.
Having said that, if Conte wins the league with Chelsea this season and Mourinho fails to get us into the top 4 that doesn't look good for him. At all. He'd be under a lot of pressure to deliver big next season I think.
Having said that, if Conte wins the league with Chelsea this season and Mourinho fails to get us into the top 4 that doesn't look good for him. At all. He'd be under a lot of pressure to deliver big next season I think.
I hope Mourinho gets sacked asap.
Why does he keep parking the bus after we successfully nullify opponents with our normal tactics? People blame the players but José should know we don't have the sqaud capable of parking said bus but continues to do it. I think everyone saw Everton's goal coming.
This. Although over-paid, over-indulged contemporary football players have far more leeway than players of less moneyed footballing eras, one of the roads to mediocrity or ruin in a football club is to tolerate or enourage player power. Sir Alex would never have won what he did with Manchester United had he given in to it.
Oh and please cut this thread as I don't think it's necessary although I participated in it, and please give Religion a thread ban. Thank you.
Because he is a defensive coach, he likes to wait for the teams in his field and more if the team plays away from home. At this point of his career I don´t think he will change his working method, with or without the right players.
There is a group of people on here who absolutely refuse to blame the manager for anything and i dont know why. The fear of sacking him and then not knowing who to appoint seems to play a major role.
I dont think we should sack him, but we must realise he is a huge part of the problem. If he doesnt improve, it wont get better.
I dont think we should sack him, but we must realise he is a huge part of the problem. If he doesnt improve, it wont get better.
Not worried about the progression of the team as we are actually looking very good. We just need a couple of better players in (Younger ones for Carrick and Zlatan) and our first choice centre backs fit and a fully fit Shaw in for Darmain. Night and day from watching LVG's red army!
I've always thought that too, and I don't expect drastic changes in his style at all, but there's being defensive and there's having everyone of our players bar our striker sit around our box waiting for attack after attack. This sqaud has already shown they can't see out a game by parking the bus but José continues to do so. He's going to have to learn to change if he wants any sort of success here.
I still like Jose and I believe he is one of the best managers in the world. We'll do fine, eventually.
One problem might be that he is trying to play attractive, attacking football ... just because we are Man Utd. He has changed his cautious approach and this doesn't always work.
One problem might be that he is trying to play attractive, attacking football ... just because we are Man Utd. He has changed his cautious approach and this doesn't always work.
There seems to be this nonsense from some people in life that if you don't have the solution, then mentioning the problem is just being a 'moan'. I personally think that's just sticking your head in the sand but anyway.
I agree actually - I don't want United to have to sack him. I'm just stating where it's appropriate - he's doing a shockingly poor job so far and there's very little to suggest he's going to turn it around. I'm not so naive to believe 'pretty football' (which it really isn't) will somehow magically produce 3-points everywhere.
It's a strange one, we're dropping loads of points but are actually playing pretty well. I wont blame Jose for half of the points we've dropped, the tactics are on point and we're creating tons of chances the players aren't tacking those chances and ultimately we get punished. He needs more time to shape the squad we all know theres at least 6-7 players he needs to cut, hopefully this time unlike previous windows we can replace them with the right players.
We have been playing better but we've also had a very easy run of games. The standard of the opposition has been really poor. So I don't know what conclusion to draw.
Everton was a marginally more difficult game, they at least closed us down with pace and intent and we seemed to struggle. Only one chance created.
We need to see more games, can we hack it against good teams? Everton wasn't promising for me, Spurs next week could be season defining.
Everton was a marginally more difficult game, they at least closed us down with pace and intent and we seemed to struggle. Only one chance created.
We need to see more games, can we hack it against good teams? Everton wasn't promising for me, Spurs next week could be season defining.
Obviously you don't sack one of the worlds top managers a few months into a job, but I would've hoped for a bit more so far... We weren't ever great under LvG, but we were mostly solid at the back, and struggled to score up front - have things really changed all that much? As much as any of you would've expected?
We've bought Ibrahimovic, Pogba and Mkhitaryan to improve our attack, and naturally our attack has improved a little, because the players are better. But that's kind of it... I don't see sweeping changes to the way we're playing... Maybe I shouldn't have expected big changes, but I do think a club as big as United deserve a real change... Should the biggest football club in the world be stopping all attacking play with 20 minutes to go against Everton?! Ok, against a big team everyone does it, but not against a mid-table side, surely?
He needs to start winning, because it's all he's ever been good at. Unlike a Fergie side (and many other managers sides - not necessarily good ones), there's little joy in watching a Mourinho side not winning. He'll get the praise when we start winning consistently against good teams, not just a Championship level Dutch side and an awful West Ham. 100% behind him, because he's still the best bet we've got. If things really haven't improved in a years time, then we think again, but not until then. I trust he'll find success.
We've bought Ibrahimovic, Pogba and Mkhitaryan to improve our attack, and naturally our attack has improved a little, because the players are better. But that's kind of it... I don't see sweeping changes to the way we're playing... Maybe I shouldn't have expected big changes, but I do think a club as big as United deserve a real change... Should the biggest football club in the world be stopping all attacking play with 20 minutes to go against Everton?! Ok, against a big team everyone does it, but not against a mid-table side, surely?
He needs to start winning, because it's all he's ever been good at. Unlike a Fergie side (and many other managers sides - not necessarily good ones), there's little joy in watching a Mourinho side not winning. He'll get the praise when we start winning consistently against good teams, not just a Championship level Dutch side and an awful West Ham. 100% behind him, because he's still the best bet we've got. If things really haven't improved in a years time, then we think again, but not until then. I trust he'll find success.
We dominated Arsenal the other week, don't see why we can't do the same against Spurs.
Arsenal is the only decent team we've come close to playing well against. Even then I only thought we were average. Arsenal just produced their usual OT bottle job. The standard of the game as a whole was poor.
If Spurs role over in a similar fashion yeah we'll be alright. If they perform we'll have to produce a level of performance we haven't yet managed.
Of course it will. Assuming "pretty football" is the type of football that has recently had opposition goalkeepers win MOTM. If you're talking about the stuff Van Gaal acolytes enjoy then maybe you'd have a point. Everyone else enjoys chances being created and shots at the opposition goal. And there is literally a direct correlation between this and winning 3 points.
Its been a very frustrating season. And i do think he will get it right. Our game is not what it was under LVG and Moyes tough. Our game is not boring anymore. We play a more direct, entertaining football. I know we have 2 wins in our last 10 PL games but things are encouraging. We must ensure a top 4 finish this year, we must try and win the Europa League. And next year we could aim for the top spot.
On a less positive note, his selection and substitutions have been, at times, baffling.
On a less positive note, his selection and substitutions have been, at times, baffling.
I think Mourinho has done a good job of getting the dressing room in order. At the start of the season, Schweinsteiger, Rooney and for some reason Mkhitaryan were all problems that needed addressing and he has done them well so far. Plus we are seeing a resurgence of Herrera, Mata, Valencia, Jones, and even Rojo. He has even given Lingard, Rashford and Martial enough opportunities (a bit too much may be, but still I choose to believe he knows better). We don't get anymore grumblings from the dressing room in the press and the squad in general seems to be behind the manager. These are critical areas if we want to see sustained success from the club.
Our squad does have issues, particularly with scoring goals. A big part of the reason for that, apart from not enough strikers, is the poor form of Shaw and Martial, IMO. Our left almost contributes nothing in attack. As much as we criticize Valencia, his work along with Mata/Mkhi on the right is productive enough.
Darmian doesn't provide anything in attack. I really think LB's form is important for Martial's success too. The sooner JM can get Shaw back to his best, the more likely we are to see more goals from the team.
Our midfield usually creates/controls the game.
If we get Shaw sorted and playing at this best, the immediate need for us will be to find a good striker. The next would be to move Fellaini, Schneiderlin and may be Schweinsteiger off the books and get a good midfielder to replace Carrick. Although, if Jose can bring about a resurgence in Schneiderlin it would help us focus all our resources on the striking department.
It is a 'process' folks
At least this time, I believe we are moving along. Results will come eventually, if not soon enough.
Our squad does have issues, particularly with scoring goals. A big part of the reason for that, apart from not enough strikers, is the poor form of Shaw and Martial, IMO. Our left almost contributes nothing in attack. As much as we criticize Valencia, his work along with Mata/Mkhi on the right is productive enough.
Darmian doesn't provide anything in attack. I really think LB's form is important for Martial's success too. The sooner JM can get Shaw back to his best, the more likely we are to see more goals from the team.
Our midfield usually creates/controls the game.
If we get Shaw sorted and playing at this best, the immediate need for us will be to find a good striker. The next would be to move Fellaini, Schneiderlin and may be Schweinsteiger off the books and get a good midfielder to replace Carrick. Although, if Jose can bring about a resurgence in Schneiderlin it would help us focus all our resources on the striking department.
It is a 'process' folks
At least this time, I believe we are moving along. Results will come eventually, if not soon enough.