what came before was joint 4th and FA Cup. Everyone says the big teams underperformed. That was Chelsea who have now replaced Leicester so normal service resumed. Spurs have been awful this season so there is ample reason to expect us to be in there like Arsenal always do.
Some praise for Jose
- Thread starter TheReligion
- Start date
Well that is certainly one way of presenting what came before. But you can frame it many different ways. We came fifth (not joint fourth) and won the FA Cup, yes, but we also played a completely different way, which is not a mere detail or an excuse from Mourinho, it is a fact that makes a material difference - especially when you consider the problems we still have scoring goals, which is clearly a hangover from the way we used to play and the instincts that have been drummed into the players.
We also have some new players adjusting to the league and that is surely also contributing to our problems scoring goals.
You are right though, we werent too far off last year and since then we have signed quality players so we should be up there. I hope we are. But if we arent I dont think - as things currently stand - replacing Mourinho will be the answer. It will only set us back - again. But obviously that could change over coming months, depending on how things pan out. If Mourinho is clearly losing the plot, that could change my thinking. For now, while we arent performing as well as I hoped, I dont think Mourinho has lost the plot. Rather I think we have taken one step back before we will take two steps forward. Hopefully both those steps will come before the end of the season and we will finish off better than we did last season.
A- is not about Mourinho or any manager in particular. Its about the structure of the club and how the people on top have absolutely no idea about football. Basically, if the manager comes in and asks us to spend, lets say, 7m, on a 2nd division player whose worth a fraction of that fee than the club would simply say yes. That's because there's no one whose got the necessary football knowledge to oppose to it. Sure, managers are accountable in terms that they would lose their jobs if they do not deliver. However by the time that happens the damage is already made, the club is saddled with a number of players who are clearly not good enough and the next manager will have a big mess to sort. The current situation is the perfect example of what Im saying. We've got the most expensive squad in the world with very little talent to justify it.
Friction between DOF and manager are imminent but hence why you need a top quality DOF not some rookie whose named simply because he wore the red shirt. DOF must have the necessary experience IN THE ROLE to be respected not only by the board but by the manager himself. He'll know his role's boundaries too. For example he shouldn't mess in terms of tactics, the coaching staff the manager wants to bring etc. He should be extemely accomodating to the manager's demands too because he would know that its pointless to bring in players that the manager doesn't like and therefore never play. He'll only steps in when either the manager is going to do a horrible mistake (ex replacing the chief scout with his brother whose got little experience in the role, or loan half the youth team to the team whose son is manager only to strip them away once they fire him or spending 30m on some talentless ogre who simply lack the characteristics to do well with the club). Tha sort of thing
Ha, did you not propose Giggs for this role a few months ago? Or am I remembering that wrong? (Edit, looking back I think you said the ex player - Giggs - is the third part of the triade, not the same person as the experienced person you are talking about.)
And on the first bit, sure, that is an issue if you have a manager who is going to ask for shit players. We have chosen to trust our manager and give him backing in what he wants. That is another way to go, which has its own advantages. It has disadvantages too, its a trade off, like I said. But a lot of people have said this was Mourinho's dream job precisely because it gave him that autonomy that he hasnt had elsewhere. And so far the players he brought in have all been successes. So I dont see any reason to be worrying about that at this stage.
I suggested a triade system similar to Juventus with
a- a CEO (ie woody)
b- an experienced DOF from outside the club
c- a sort of club president who'll be someone who knows the club very well and will make sure that he'll keep the club's traditions relevant in any meeting being made
A & B are of course the most powerful.
Regarding your final part. I agree that managers should be trusted. However everyone is prone of making mistakes and considering that transfers tend to cost the club millions, then the risks of committing mistakes should be kept to the minimum. A top quality DOF knows when to step in and he'll only step in when the manager's suggestion is simply too ridiculous to accept. Let me give you an example. Juventus triade last stepped in when Conte expected them to spend some 35m on Cuadrado. Juventus said no to the deal, Conte (being the cry baby he is) left the club and the player joined Chelsea instead. We all know who was right on that don't we?
So again it all comes back to who we would get in.
I dont know what happened to that Athletico Madrid guy we were looking at, who I seem to remember reading Mourinho had a lot of respect for. Maybe Mourinho expressed a preference for keeping things as they are. Either way the time to get him or anyone else like that in was when we didnt have a manager. If we brought someone in above or on a par with the manager when the manager is already in place, the chance of it becoming a problem are surely greatly increased.
I dont know what happened to that Athletico Madrid guy we were looking at, who I seem to remember reading Mourinho had a lot of respect for. Maybe Mourinho expressed a preference for keeping things as they are. Either way the time to get him or anyone else like that in was when we didnt have a manager. If we brought someone in above or on a par with the manager when the manager is already in place, the chance of it becoming a problem are surely greatly increased.
Nonsense. Liverpool are much better this season than last. Arsenal too. City might turn out about the same but only because they started last season like a freight train too, before going off the boil (assuming Guardiola can't get them firing again, which is a very optimistic prediction to make) So that's three of the top four who have improved significantly. Absolutely absurd to claim that only Chelsea have been better than last season.
There's plenty of valid reasons to be critical about Mourinho so far (and god knows you've already mentioned all of them, repeatedly) but let's not start creating fiction to damn him by. That really is taking an agenda too far.
Why do we have to always be the one that drops out though? Last season everyone underperforms and allows Leicester to win the league and we drop out of the top 4. This year Chelsea return to their place above Leicester, Arsenal have improved, Liverpool are the new flavour (as Tottenham were) and United are the ones trailing again. I do get your point though and if you think about it, had we taken chances we would be closer. I just don't agree what came before was so tragic.
I bottled it yesterday with my Mourinho/Tactician comments. Meant to talk more about his philosophy or style of play rather than tactics. Point still stands that we haven't looked like a team capable of playing on the counter until Henrik started playing, and before that it was not easy to decipher what our style was s it was so out of balance.
Either way, I've lost my place in the squad and will have to earn it back with better comments. I would expect nothing less than the criticism I took for what I said, having seen what we say about the real players on the team.
Either way, I've lost my place in the squad and will have to earn it back with better comments. I would expect nothing less than the criticism I took for what I said, having seen what we say about the real players on the team.
What do you mean "so tragic"? Its not a question of being tragic, its a question of being well prepared. Things like high squad turnover, changing the style of football, having a preseason, these are things that do have an impact.
Even if we ignore the performances of other teams "what came before" was always going to be difficult to turn around in just a few months.
Fergie left, we fell to pieces under Moyes, sneaked fourth place in Van Gaal's debut season, then deteriorated again in his second season.
Three years of (at best) stasis at a level miles below where would want to be. All in the context of losing a bunch of players (for various different reasons) who were a big part of our successes under Fergie (Rio, Vidic, Evra, RvP, Nani, Rafael, Giggs, Hernandez) with fairly unimpressive attempts to replace them since (e.g. we're still massively reliant on 35 year old Michael Carrick)
Throw in Moyes and Van Gaal kicking the Rooney can down the road and it all means a lot of people are failing to appreciate the size of the task our latest manager inherited (possibly even Mourinho himself).
I expect us to move forward. At the very least, a higher points tally. He has been given resources that other managers can only dream of. Who else could sign Miki and Pogba without selling anyone? It can't just be all cupcakes and marshmellows. That said, I believe we will get 4th, hopefully in City's place
What leads you to believe that? Is that just a result of a some optimism after a couple of wins in a row or is it something more substantial?
I want to share the same view but I just can't. False dawns are the one thing this team has been sustainably good at over the last few years.
Its because it looks like Jose is settling on a team for one. Also Mkhitaryan can be a trump card. I am being optimistic he can do a Hazard (based on last 12 months of his performances). Our recent performances have actually been decent. There is plenty of time left. City's defence is in a state so they will continue leaking goals. My concern is that the title is out of reach.
How substantial do you want?
I share his optimism - though I do swing from one extreme to the other with United at the moment - and its mainly because we are playing good football and usually make a lot of, or at least a good number of chances. We arent putting them away but we have players who have shown they can put them away, so I am optimistic they will start to do that more.
But youre right about the false dawns, which is why it doesnt take much for all that optimism to crumble.
Hopefully when we get into January we'll have put together a run of wins, some of our competitors will have dropped some points here and there and we will be a bit closer to the leading pack, which should give everyone a bit more belief.
yeah Im not thinking about the title at all. From where we are now, a successful season would be 3rd and win Europa, if we did that I would be absolutely delighted. And I think we can (which is not to say that I think we will.)
And 4 very winnable games with no Europa. Teams of this level have rarely played well against us.
14 Dec Crystal Palace A 20:00
17 Dec West Brom
26 Dec Sunderland H 15:00
31 Dec Middlesbrough H 15:00
The optimism should be recognized, as contrary to what many have said on here we do not have shite players. There have been glimpses over all post Fergie years where on our day we have played some very good football, we have also played a lot of dross, down to bad tactics, formations and under performance from certain players, not the quality of players per se.
When you look at the top 6, there is very little difference in the quality of the squads. Arsenal, Spurs, and Chelsea have had a lot more stability and less churn and so they have a higher level of consistency and fluidity. Liverpool, City and United have had a significant amount of churn, leading to less consistency and fluidity. Of the latter 3, it is only United that were forced to make changes (LVG first season), the other changes were to reflect a playing style or improve the squad.
We are very much a work in progress, however, I would say over the last 6 matches, we have had longer periods of good football, and most of the dross has come from the negativity of the manager in wanting to close out the game at 1-0. West Ham, Everton, Arsenal, and to a certain extent Spurs were all games where we allowed the opposition to get back into the game. Something I hoped Jose wouldn't do, but it is in his nature, and maybe we are going to see that a lot more than we hoped.
Of all the top 6 sides, Only Chelsea have improved significantly, Arsenal, City and Spurs are continuing their form from end of last year, Liverpool topsy turvy depending on whether they have their first 11 or not, United maybe starting to show some consistency, but still lacking confidence or self belief. This week could be proof of a false dawn or of progress. Get 6 points and the belief may start growing again in the team.
He does deserve praise.
Rooney isn't an automatic starter.
We create more chances since Fergie.
Mhkitaryan seems happy again.
Martial is being showed faith even though he is not setting the world alight but through working hard.
Defensively we have been good even with a makeshift back 4.
If we do well over Xmas we are right in the thick of a top 4 run.
Rooney isn't an automatic starter.
We create more chances since Fergie.
Mhkitaryan seems happy again.
Martial is being showed faith even though he is not setting the world alight but through working hard.
Defensively we have been good even with a makeshift back 4.
If we do well over Xmas we are right in the thick of a top 4 run.
The Rooney thing isn't getting much attention but I think Jose deserves a lot of credit for that. We beat Spurs on the weekend and Rooney didn't come of the bench but the fact that no one in the media thought it was a big deal anymore is a testament to how well it has been handled.
Hot damn!
Mohrino (and Rooney for that matter) deserves credit for the way it's been handled, but we could all see the media turning on him after the dreadful start he had to the season.
Can't say i remember much from the Zorya game since i had about 5 lagers to much and only caught the 2nd half, but Rooney was great vs WH in the League Cup and i wonder if has more of those in the tank
Nice to see him show some emotion at the end hugging the lads.
Could tell he was delighted.
Could tell he was delighted.
The whole team showed emotion. Same at the end of the spurs game.
Quite the contrast with last season, he is building the team spirit
Quite the contrast with last season, he is building the team spirit
I noticed this too. Even the likes of Rooney and Mata were back on the pitch delighted.
Nice to see.
Bumping this as I think the gaffer deserves much credit. Great little run we are on and enjoying how he's growing into the role.
Here to stay.
Here to stay.
Didnt really understand the stick he was getting earlier in the season. Anyone with a brain could have seen our performances were improving but we were just shy in front of goal. We've got a way to go but we are getting there.
I still maintain he had a monster of a task ahead of him given the past 3 years
I still maintain he had a monster of a task ahead of him given the past 3 years
Mourinho has made a massive impact and what I'm most impressed with is his patience. Frankly, we're seeing Mkhitaryan now and I've seen Mou's critics speak of how we could have been a lot better off if he'd been a starter even earlier. But there are also news reports of how much Mkhi has bulked up in the interim. He's also admitted that he wasn't upset, took inputs and worked on them and is better. To me though, the final point is what Raiola has said - that Mkhi is far stronger and more aggressive now than last season. That's no coincidence. That's Mourinho knowingly being patient so that once Mkhi stepped in, he was devastating - and he has been.
Martial looked a lot better too last time (Sunderland) than he has all season - and I Mou's said how he's working with him too so that he adapts to the new style of play. He's eased Rooney out (massive task) and got our midfield sorted out. We're looking increasingly slick an I no longer fear that we won't score. It's now more about converting more chances (Pogba could score a goal a game easily once his radar is fixed) and settling down the back 4 (this will come). Mou had a monster task and I'm not sure how people can't see that.
City are performing to their level after under-performing last season - oh, and they added a f*ck-ton of talent in the summer (out-spent us, lest we forget). And this is a squad that was already far superior to us last season - no doubt. They're now just, what, 6 points ahead?
Arsenal - I think we can all agree that they too were miles ahead of us last season. We're now within 4 of them and closing!
Chelsea - title-winning squad a year ago and with significant additions too. No surprise to see them rise (oh, and no Europa!)
Liverpool - this team finished above us and nearly won a title before their manager went completely unhinged. They then brought in Klopp over half a year before Mou came in...they've had a head-start and we're now reeling them in too.
All in all, Mou has - in my opinion - done a good job. Has it been ideal? Nope. Nothing is and I really wish he'd moved to 4-3-3 earlier seeing how Pogba is at his best in that system. That said, Martial's dramatic drop in form and Mkhi's bedding-in period didn't make it easy. Remember that without them, he was down to Mata, Lingard and Rashford as his wing options...oh and Rooney. Despite all this, if we'd just scored from even a few of the many chances we created in that run of draws, we'd be well within the top 4 and possibly even in the title hunt. Small margins...
It's because of all this that I'm hopeful of a strong second half (reminiscent of the Fergie years) and a top 4 finish at the very least...
He was getting stick at the beginning of the season because the modern day fan is a impatient. They demand improvement and success now, not in 3-6 months time.
Let's not forget that Klopp is only now starting to see a major improvement at Liverpool. He has been there longer and had time to install his ideas and methods.
Give Jose time and we WILL challenge, it's as simple as that.
Seems to be currying favour a little more amongst the press too. Earlier on in the season it felt like there wasn't a week that went by without a negative and destructive piece being written about him personally and professionally.
He's no longer the darling amongst the sports journalists (that mantle lies with Pep, Klopp and Conte), but you can see his manner has softened slightly and the journalists have responded accordingly.
I suspect Jose just wanted to get on the with task at hand without being put under the microscope - it must be insufferable when the team isn't playing well and the results are indifferent. He showed a complete apathy in the early weeks during press conferences - little wonder given how he was being portrayed by those attending his pressers.
You do get the sense that the mood is turning though and that can only be a good thing. It'll allow him the space in which to do what he does best - construct a winning squad.
He's no longer the darling amongst the sports journalists (that mantle lies with Pep, Klopp and Conte), but you can see his manner has softened slightly and the journalists have responded accordingly.
I suspect Jose just wanted to get on the with task at hand without being put under the microscope - it must be insufferable when the team isn't playing well and the results are indifferent. He showed a complete apathy in the early weeks during press conferences - little wonder given how he was being portrayed by those attending his pressers.
You do get the sense that the mood is turning though and that can only be a good thing. It'll allow him the space in which to do what he does best - construct a winning squad.
Totally agree. The modern fan multiplied by most message board fans equals the most impatient of all.
Man Utd 2:1 Middlesbrough
I'm a fan of his substitutions today. Rojo for Blind, I can see the logic. Blind looked a bit last ditch today.
Fellaini off for Mata was fantastic. We didn't need 2 deeper midfielders out there at that point, so that was really encouraging. It was a bog standard Mata for Mikhi or Martial. We really went for it.
Rashford for Smalling was great as well. 20 minutes to go, we needed 2 goals. I loved it. I have was hoping it wasn't going to be Rashford for Martial or Mikhi again.
Very positive today, and making we're not here really lamenting more bad decisions.
Some things have taken a while though season, but I think Jose is learning and isn't proud enough to admit that. Integrating Carrick and Mikhi, taking Fellaini out for Herrera, Rashford has seen less time on the wing recently as well and the big one, less pitch time for Rooney. Yes, ideally he wouldn't make mistakes for him to correct, but to expect that would be ridiculous.
All we can ask is he learns from his mistakes, and he seems to be doing that.
Fellaini off for Mata was fantastic. We didn't need 2 deeper midfielders out there at that point, so that was really encouraging. It was a bog standard Mata for Mikhi or Martial. We really went for it.
Rashford for Smalling was great as well. 20 minutes to go, we needed 2 goals. I loved it. I have was hoping it wasn't going to be Rashford for Martial or Mikhi again.
Very positive today, and making we're not here really lamenting more bad decisions.
Some things have taken a while though season, but I think Jose is learning and isn't proud enough to admit that. Integrating Carrick and Mikhi, taking Fellaini out for Herrera, Rashford has seen less time on the wing recently as well and the big one, less pitch time for Rooney. Yes, ideally he wouldn't make mistakes for him to correct, but to expect that would be ridiculous.
All we can ask is he learns from his mistakes, and he seems to be doing that.
Yeah he did everything to go for the win today. Credit to him.
Seriously though, there is absolutely 0% chance we win that under Moyes or van Gaal. Very good substitutes, too.
His handling of Martial and Mkhitaryan has been incredible, made them fight for their place and this is how he's rewarded, he's earned the fan's trust on his decisions, especially with the positive substitutions!
Doing a great job,we are exciting to watch again and making progress.
A world class manager now coming into his own here.
Chuffed to see some sugar for Jose 
There was some fire from him today too. Lovely
I was about 75% before, but now I am completely behind him heading into the new year.