Film Star Wars Episode IX The Rise of Skywalker [Theories]

[The Cat]

Nah its brilliant man. The last hour and the fight between obi wan and anakin in the beat fight in all of SW. 2nd is Maul from PM.

You can actually watch Christensen and Portman's dialogue (both separately and together) in that and call it the best?

I'm genuinely puzzled.

 

[sullydnl]

Everyone complains about the dialogue and acting but the way those films look is as much of a problem. That super-artificial CG aesthetic is ugly and dated as hell.

 

[2 man midfield]

Yeah but if you just ignore the shitty dialogue, bad storytelling, terrible acting, the PS2 style CGI, the awful direction, boring camera work, confusing and contradictory plot, boring politics and daft pacing then they're actually great films. Just suspend your disbelief.

 

[Ubik]

Everyone complains about the dialogue and acting but the way those films look is as much of a problem. That super-artificial CG aesthetic is ugly and dated as hell.

Still find it odd that he insisted on writing and directing them after hating it during the originals and successfully getting other people in. Guess maybe he was just so determined to get CGI stuff to work and didn't think anyone else would be able to do it (bar Spielberg).

 

[Annihilate Now!]

That's obviously not good. But in the moment, after everything that came before that, it was bloody fantastic. It was cinematic gold when Yoda pulled out his lightsaber and everyone thought "No way! Yoda is going to fight!" I particularly loved his fighting style. It was probably taken from that Lego Star Wars game.

That was in Attack of the Clones.

 

[Revan]

1 and 2 also have "bad and nonsense stories". So does 3. As well as terrible scripts, confused actors, embarrassing dialogue, poor editing, appalling cinematography, terrible pacing and shit visuals.

Stories of one and two are decent actually, and stand very well on the Star Wars lore. Agree with the other parts (especially for confused actors and embarrassing dialogues) but not for Revenge of the Sith.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I swear some people go to a Star Wars film hoping it sucks, so that they can harp on about how their once-loved franchise was mauled. The whole SW universe is about suspension of disbelief. So why can't that apply to dialogue, etc?

Just chill people! Disney is delivering what Lucas never could. Many movies! Sure, some won't be as good as others, but they are all entertaining in their own way. Empire Strikes Back - widely hailed as the best - is also filled with iffy scenes.

I guess some are just hard to please, which is fine :-)

Just shut up and accept the shite? Just pretend suspend your disbelief and pretend it's not shit? What the feck?

 

[Revan]

I'd rank them:

Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
A New Hope
Rogue One
Revenge of the Sith
The Phantom Menace



Attack of the Clones

I like this. Denying the existence of those fan fiction ‘movies’.

 

[Revan]

Sequels are shitty fan fiction. Prequels are poorly told stories, in fact you could skip the first two and not miss a damn thing that matters, but at least they felt like they were somewhat grounded in that world.

First one probably yes. The only thing it does is to initiate Anakin being the chosen one.

Second is quite important in the grand scheme of things especially for Anakin’s fall (and to a lesser degree, the origin of the clone army). His mother dies there and he starts banging Padme, two events that make him fall on the next movie.

In truth, it sucked that The Clone Wars cartoon series was released later. A couple of movie adaptations from it followed by RotS would have been grand.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I like this. Denying the existence of those fan fiction ‘movies’.

I know nothing of this fan fiction you speak of. I wish they had made some sequels when Carrie Fisher was still alive, missed opportunity really. We'll always have the canon of the Thrawn trilogy though.

 

[2 man midfield]

First one probably yes. The only thing it does is to initiate Anakin being the chosen one.

Second is quite important in the grand scheme of things especially for Anakin’s fall (and to a lesser degree, the origin of the clone army). His mother dies there and he starts banging Padme, two events that make him fall on the next movie.

In truth, it sucked that The Clone Wars cartoon series was released later. A couple of movie adaptations from it followed by RotS would have been grand.

I'd agree if his fall actually started in the second film, but he's still Anakin the good guy until about 10 minutes before he turns. We're told him and Padme are in love but not really shown anything that makes us understand why. It's like they added parts into the second film to plant the seeds, like him killing the sand people, having anger problems, etc but then threw them out the window at the start of the third film anyway. The reason he turns is because he was forced into a corner and had a decision to make, not because he gave into his anger. It just seemed to make everything set up in the second film pointless anyway. Apart from meeting Padme, nothing important happens in that film with regards to Anakin.

I do like that it gives us some backstory about how Palpatine came to power though, and the clones being made as you say. There's even a glimpse of the death star in the early stages of development by the bugs on Geonosis. Another thing Disney decided to bin off, come to that.

 

[Revan]

I know nothing of this fan fiction you speak of. I wish they had made some sequels when Carrie Fisher was still alive, missed opportunity really. We'll always have the canon of the Thrawn trilogy though.

Indeed. In all truth, Thrawn trilogy (objectively speaking) is the best thing in the entire Star Wars. Nice consistent plot, good dialogues, decent pacing and everything makes sense. I also have it as the official SW continuation rather than the sequels (though to be fair, they don’t really contradict each other that much except Leia having twins instead of a son).

 

[Art Vandelay]

I'd agree if his fall actually started in the second film, but he's still Anakin the good guy until about 10 minutes before he turns. We're told him and Padme are in love but not really shown anything that makes us understand why. It's like they added parts into the second film to plant the seeds, like him killing the sand people, having anger problems, etc but then threw them out the window at the start of the third film anyway. The reason he turns is because he was forced into a corner and had a decision to make, not because he gave into his anger. It just seemed to make everything set up in the second film pointless anyway. Apart from meeting Padme, nothing important happens in that film with regards to Anakin.

I do like that it gives us some backstory about how Palpatine came to power though, and the clones being made as you say. There's even a glimpse of the death star in the early stages of development by the bugs on Geonosis. Another thing Disney decided to bin off, come to that.

We found out about the evils of sand.

It painted Anakin as someone with an angry streak that absolutely will go too far when pushed to emotional extremes and who has no problem breaking rules when he wants something. He has a serious lack of self control. Which eventually paid off in his turn. Well it would have if George Lucas had ever seen human emotion before. The ideas were there, it's just the execution was not at all good.

 

[Revan]

I'd agree if his fall actually started in the second film, but he's still Anakin the good guy until about 10 minutes before he turns. We're told him and Padme are in love but not really shown anything that makes us understand why. It's like they added parts into the second film to plant the seeds, like him killing the sand people, having anger problems, etc but then threw them out the window at the start of the third film anyway. The reason he turns is because he was forced into a corner and had a decision to make, not because he gave into his anger. It just seemed to make everything set up in the second film pointless anyway. Apart from meeting Padme, nothing important happens in that film with regards to Anakin.

I do like that it gives us some backstory about how Palpatine came to power though, and the clones being made as you say. There's even a glimpse of the death star in the early stages of development by the bugs on Geonosis. Another thing Disney decided to bin off, come to that.

Is he the Anakin good guy though? He is definitely a good person and a competent fighter, but there are shades of his darkness there. He kills kids on the second movie, and then at the beginning of the third movie kills an unarmed person which is the most un-Jedi thing to do. Without the dreams of his mum dying turning to reality, the dreams of Padme dying wouldn’t have had that effect in him. His fall was definitely done a bit too fast though, but I don’t necessarily mind it considering that it have space to Kenobi who is the best thing about the prequels.

The TV show does a much better job on exploring his fall and him as a character (despite that it isn’t the main theme of the show).

 

[Revan]

We found out about the evils of sand.

It painted Anakin as someone with an angry streak that absolutely will go too far when pushed to emotional extremes and who has no problem breaking rules when he wants something. He has a serious lack of self control. Which eventually paid off in his turn. Well it would have if George Lucas had ever seen human emotion before. The ideas were there, it's just the execution was not at all good.

If Lucas gave the half baked scripts to a competent writer and even more importantly a competent director, they could have been amazing movies. The story (on high level) was very good IMO.

I fecking hate that the entire best dialogue in the trilogy was cut from the movie.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Indeed. In all truth, Thrawn trilogy (objectively speaking) is the best thing in the entire Star Wars. Nice consistent plot, good dialogues, decent pacing and everything makes sense. I also have it as the official SW continuation rather than the sequels (though to be fair, they don’t really contradict each other that much except Leia having twins instead of a son).

I think I still just about prefer Matthew Stover's stuff, but yeah as a trilogy and continuation the Thrawn trilogy has very rarely had anything come close to it in terms of quality. Which kind of makes me glad Disney left it alone.

 

[2 man midfield]

We found out about the evils of sand.

It painted Anakin as someone with an angry streak that absolutely will go too far when pushed to emotional extremes and who has no problem breaking rules when he wants something. He has a serious lack of self control. Which eventually paid off in his turn. Well it would have if George Lucas had ever seen human emotion before. The ideas were there, it's just the execution was not at all good.

True. Definitely agree with the second part. I don't think he should have attempted the project alone.

Is he the Anakin good guy though? He is definitely a good person and a competent fighter, but there are shades of his darkness there. He kills kids on the second movie, and then at the beginning of the third movie kills an unarmed person which is the most un-Jedi thing to do. Without the dreams of his mum dying turning to reality, the dreams of Padme dying wouldn’t have had that effect in him. His fall was definitely done a bit too fast though, but I don’t necessarily mind it considering that it have space to Kenobi who is the best thing about the prequels.

The TV show does a much better job on exploring his fall and him as a character (despite that it isn’t the main theme of the show).

I do agree, there's the odd bit here and there but it was all done so fast. They dedicated 3 movies to his apparent fall, but only used one and a bit to tell that story. This is why I think they should have taken their time and had all three movies be set around the same time to really explore his fall. We don't need to see his home planet and what he was doing when he was 10. It could start with Anakin at 21 and end with him at 23, and I think we'd see a better story.

If Lucas gave the half baked scripts to a competent writer and even more importantly a competent director, they could have been amazing movies. The story (on high level) was very good IMO.

This is agree with. Lucas had the ideas of where it needed to go, he just needed a co-writer to help with the screenplay and a director to help translate it. I've heard he's not the most hands on guy when it comes to that. At the end of the day I look at the prequels the same way I look at the sequels: wasted potential.

I fecking hate that the entire best dialogue in the trilogy was cut from the movie.

What's this?

 

[Art Vandelay]

If Lucas gave the half baked scripts to a competent writer and even more importantly a competent director, they could have been amazing movies. The story (on high level) was very good IMO.

I fecking hate that the entire best dialogue in the trilogy was cut from the movie.

Even if someone editing the scripts had said no to him at some point or pointed out how these new additions affect the original trilogy it might have helped. 3P0 and R2D2 being there, Anakin building 3P0 and how Kenobi's talk with Luke kind of becomes more outright lies than a certain point of view due to how this all played out. They seemed to just act like everything he was coming out with was gold. When overall he did have a good story in mind, he just wasn't capable of fleshing it out and telling it.

 

[RedSky]

Nah its brilliant man. The last hour and the fight between obi wan and anakin in the beat fight in all of SW. 2nd is Maul from PM.

I hate everything about that fight. It's a bad film.

 

[Revan]

What's this?

It comes from RotS novelization. When Anakin says ‘This is the end for you, my Master’, Kenobi replies ‘I have heard it many times, Anakin. I never thought that I was going to hear it from you’ (or at least something similar, I have read the book only once).

I remember finding that very powerful and describing Kenobi’s sadness more than anything (especially considering that the entire book is focused on the relation between those two).

Of course, Lucas had to replace it with ‘Only a Sith deals in absolutes’, ‘From my point of view, the Jedi are evil’ and the ‘best’ one ‘If you are not with me, then you are my enemy’.

Another thing is that some good bits seem to have come by accident. For example, in the movie (and especially in the novelization) it is quite clear that Sidious is allowing Windu to win in order to force Anakin to turn to the dark side (he goes within a second from ‘I am weak’ to ‘Unlimited Power’). Probably Stover saw the movie and made it even more blatant in the book that Sid threw the fight. Then comes Lucas and says ‘Na, Windu just overpowered Sidious’. :facepalm

 

[Art Vandelay]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes still cracks me up. I still don't know if George got the irony in that.

The novelization is proof that there was a good story in Episode 3, when you get to see the inner workings of Anakin's mind and the fear that drives him. The hate and anger that it drives him to and how hard he struggles to control it before letting it power him when he becomes Vader.

 

[2 man midfield]

It comes from RotS novelization. When Anakin says ‘This is the end for you, my Master’, Kenobi replies ‘I have heard it many times, Anakin. I never thought that I was going to hear it from you’ (or at least something similar, I have read the book only once).

I remember finding that very powerful and describing Kenobi’s sadness more than anything (especially considering that the entire book is focused on the relation between those two).

Of course, Lucas had to replace it with ‘Only a Sith deals in absolutes’, ‘From my point of view, the Jedi are evil’ and the ‘best’ one ‘If you are not with me, then you are my enemy’.

Another thing is that some good bits seem to have come by accident. For example, in the movie (and especially in the novelization) it is quite clear that Sidious is allowing Windu to win in order to force Anakin to turn to the dark side (he goes within a second from ‘I am weak’ to ‘Unlimited Power’). Probably Stover saw the movie and made it even more blatant in the book that Sid threw the fight. Then comes Lucas and says ‘Na, Windu just overpowered Sidious’. :facepalm

Yeah this just shows how much better the films could have been with someone else writing the screenplay. At least we've got the memes though.

 

[Revan]

Another thing in the movie that is hilariously bad was Yoda saying to Palpatine ‘... or should I call you, Dark Sidious?’ like a gotcha moment ‘hey I caught you’.

That would have made so much sense if Palpatine was not expecting it (so before Order 66). But at that stage, he had essentially destroyed the shit our of the Jedi order, killed close to all existing Jedi, thrown to the dark side the two best Jedi students and had become Emperor. He wasn’t hiding anymore. It was like Yoda making a meme for the sake of making a meme.

 

[Ubik]

It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with a decent story for the origin of possibly the most iconic film villain. You only have too look at the reaction to what is in effect a pretty tame sequence in Rogue One to see the appetite for that (having the suit reveal as it was rather than just before the final act condemns the entire trilogy on its own). I wouldn't call having his fall based off his mother getting tortured to death a particularly interesting story choice either, most people would react to that in a similar way. The end result is a story that is a lot about general jedi myopia that tries to shovel any sort of responsibility away from the co-protagonists, but does at least let McDiarmid ham the hell out of what could've been a very thankless role.

 

[2 man midfield]

Another thing in the movie that is hilariously bad was Yoda saying to Palpatine ‘... or should I call you, Dark Sidious?’ like a gotcha moment ‘hey I caught you’.

That would have made so much sense if Palpatine was not expecting it (so before Order 66). But at that stage, he had essentially destroyed the shit our of the Jedi order, killed close to all existing Jedi, thrown to the dark side the two best Jedi students and had become Emperor. He wasn’t hiding anymore. It was like Yoda making a meme for the sake of making a meme.

Never thought about that but yeah, you’re right. Seems a bit silly in retrospect.

 

[Revan]

It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with a decent story for the origin of possibly the most iconic film villain. You only have too look at the reaction to what is in effect a pretty tame sequence in Rogue One to see the appetite for that (having the suit reveal as it was rather than just before the final act condemns the entire trilogy on its own). I wouldn't call having his fall based off his mother getting tortured to death a particularly interesting story choice either, most people would react to that in a similar way. The end result is a story that is a lot about general jedi myopia that tries to shovel any sort of responsibility away from the co-protagonists, but does at least let McDiarmid ham the hell out of what could've been a very thankless role.

To be fair, 'fear leads to the dark side', has been a well-established theme since The Empire Strikes Back when Yoda asks Luke to not go help Leia and co.

While not necessarily, ground-breaking, his mother being tortured to death followed by seeing visions of Padme dying, worked well in the lore for Anakin to start the journey to the dark side. Obviously, the Jedi order being a bit of pricks helped on that aspect (and later established, but totally canonical and envisioned earlier, the order being total pricks with regards to Anakin's apprentice played a role too).

McDiarmid was good on those movies. I don't remember too much from back then, but did people since the beginning knew that these were prequels and that Palpatine is the Emperor (Anakin is Vader), or they thought that the movies were like a reboot of Star Wars?

 

[DixieDean]

I swear some people go to a Star Wars film hoping it sucks, so that they can harp on about how their once-loved franchise was mauled. The whole SW universe is about suspension of disbelief. So why can't that apply to dialogue, etc?

Just chill people! Disney is delivering what Lucas never could. Many movies! Sure, some won't be as good as others, but they are all entertaining in their own way. Empire Strikes Back - widely hailed as the best - is also filled with iffy scenes.

I guess some are just hard to please, which is fine :-)

The worst fanbase in the world. After seeing how they behave is it any wonder Lucas got the hell away from it? Don't blame him. Whiny, never satisfied bitches.

 

[DixieDean]

Funniest moment in the prequels is in TPM. At the end of the movie Anakin gets in the ship and for some reason there just happens to be a child-size helmet in there waiting for him!

I watched it in the lead up to TROS and I had somehow never noticed it before.

 

[Shakesy]

Let's face it y'all. Star Wars movies didn't get worse. We became more cynical.

I was born in '76. So I grew up watching Star Wars. When I was ten I didn't give a rat's ass that the Ewoks were too cute and fluffy to be cool. Now I have an issue with Finn, because his character lacks depth ffs.

We are sour, moldy lemons.

 

[2 man midfield]

The worst fanbase in the world. After seeing how they behave is it any wonder Lucas got the hell away from it? Don't blame him. Whiny, never satisfied bitches.

I do agree with you, but is there anything wrong with calling a bad film a bad film? As long as it stops there, of course. The people singing about ruined childhoods and the like obviously take it too far. But there’s been a weird pushback, especially with these Disney movies, where anyone who didn’t like the direction of these films is called a manbaby or worse. Even by the people who make the films!

 

[2 man midfield]

Let's face it y'all. Star Wars movies didn't get worse. We became more cynical.

I was born in '76. So I grew up watching Star Wars. When I was ten I didn't give a rat's ass that the Ewoks were too cute and fluffy to be cool. Now I have an issue with Finn, because his character lacks depth ffs.

We are sour, moldy lemons.

They definitely got worse

 

[Shakesy]

The worst fanbase in the world. After seeing how they behave is it any wonder Lucas got the hell away from it? Don't blame him. Whiny, never satisfied bitches.

 

[sullydnl]

Let's face it y'all. Star Wars movies didn't get worse. We became more cynical.

I was born in '76. So I grew up watching Star Wars. When I was ten I didn't give a rat's ass that the Ewoks were too cute and fluffy to be cool. Now I have an issue with Finn, because his character lacks depth ffs.

We are sour, moldy lemons.

I certainly think it's true that films released now are dissected in a way that film in the past weren't, which means people have more demanding standards. If a Star Wars film was released now with the same amount of plot holes, character gaps and contrivances as the original trilogy then it would be ripped apart. The sheer amount of stuff in those films that is only explained away or fleshed out in outside sources would drive current day internet nerds insane.

 

[DixieDean]

I do agree with you, but is there anything wrong with calling a bad film a bad film? As long as it stops there, of course. The people singing about ruined childhoods and the like obviously take it too far. But there’s been a weird pushback, especially with these Disney movies, where anyone who didn’t like the direction of these films is called a manbaby or worse. Even by the people who make the films!

Apart from I think one tweet by Rian Johnson, which happened to come in the midst of a twitter storm for him, the bolded part is not true. And I would let him off with that considering the shit he was getting.

As to your other point, my main issue with the fanbase can basically be boiled down to the hyperbole used. And true to SW fandom, I'll use some of my own now.

Every criticism seems to be sweeping and grand. Don't like a movie? Fine, that's all well and good, but it never seems to stay there. The criticism almost invariably turns into a critique of the franchise as a whole. It's not just a movie you didn't like, but it 'killed the franchise' and everyone involved with it is a soulless hack who should be fired ASAP and then shot into space.

It's tiring to follow and turned me off the whole fanbase. Wanna discuss what's going to happen in EP 9? Well, too bad! Instead, you'll have to wade through ten tons of shit to get to it.

 

[Shakesy]

They definitely got worse

I watched Willow the other day. Remember Willow? It used to be good! Alas, I can never again reach that childlike state when watching movies these days. It's a pity.

Same goes for SW. You've changed 2Man! Accept it. Do not underestimate the power of the Grey Side!

 

[Bobski]

Still think that Rogue One is the best of the Disney SW films. Still has massive flaws but it is the only one that emotionally resonated with me.

Based on some of the reporting around the politics at the top of Disney with regards to power struggles, I am not optimistic over their future projects. Some talk that Headland(former Weinstein assistant) might want to make a female lead Star Wars TV series, some discussion that they might use the Mara Jade character. I hope not as she is one of the best parts of the old eu and I don't trust them not to mess it up.

 

[2 man midfield]

Apart from I think one tweet by Rian Johnson, which happened to come in the midst of a twitter storm for him, the bolded part is not true. And I would let him off with that considering the shit he was getting.

As to your other point, my main issue with the fanbase can basically be boiled down to the hyperbole used. And true to SW fandom, I'll use some of my own now.

Every criticism seems to be sweeping and grand. Don't like a movie? Fine, that's all well and good, but it never seems to stay there. The criticism almost invariably turns into a critique of the franchise as a whole. It's not just a movie you didn't like, but it 'killed the franchise' and everyone involved with it is a soulless hack who should be fired and shot into space.

It's tiring to follow and turned me off the whole fanbase. Wanna discuss what's going to happen in EP 9? Well, too bad! Instead, you'll have to wade through ten tons of shit to get to it.

Kathleen Kennedy has done it as well. Basically if you didn’t like the film, you’re the problem, not them. That seemed to be the message. There’s definitely some toxic people out there, just look at the ones who went after the actress who played Rose. But they didn’t seem to be referring to them, just anyone who had any complaints about the movie. I dunno, just didn’t seem a wise move to me.

 

[DixieDean]

Kathleen Kennedy has done it as well. Basically if you didn’t like the film, you’re the problem, not them. That seemed to be the message. There’s definitely some toxic people out there, just look at the ones who went after the actress who played Rose. But they didn’t seem to be referring to them, just anyone who had any complaints about the movie. I dunno, just didn’t seem a wise move to me.

I have seen zero proof of Kathleen Kennedy saying something like that. I'm open to being proved wrong, but I suspect she might have been taken out of context by one of the plethora of Youtube channels out there that making a living doing just that.

 

[2 man midfield]

I watched Willow the other day. Remember Willow? It used to be good! Alas, I can never again reach that childlike state when watching movies these days. It's a pity.

Same goes for SW. You've changed 2Man! Accept it. Do not underestimate the power of the Grey Side!

Never seen Willow so can’t comment. I’m not saying the old movies were without their flaws, most of ROTJ for a start. In fact most of the first film was saved by editing and cast feedback. They definitely have their issues.

However I don’t think it’s nostalgia talking when I say they’re better than the prequels. I was born in 93, and grew up on the prequels, by that logic I should prefer the newer films as I have no nostalgic attachment to the older ones.

Anyway, none of them are exactly works of art, they’re silly movies retelling age old stories, set in space. Not exactly the most sophisticated subject matter. But somehow attack of the clones makes return of the Jedi look like citizen bloody Kane.

 

[Bobski]

I watched Willow the other day. Remember Willow? It used to be good! Alas, I can never again reach that childlike state when watching movies these days. It's a pity.

Same goes for SW. You've changed 2Man! Accept it. Do not underestimate the power of the Grey Side!

The Princess Bride still works, it looks ridiculous, but it might be the most charming movie ever made, that doesn't fail.