Players actually moving around today and making themselves available, rather then running away like scared little kids.
Makes all the difference.
Makes all the difference.
Static, slow motion zombie passing
- Thread starter noodlehair
- Start date
not a day for this thread!
Feared the worst after the first 5mins. Looked like it was gunna be same old same old.
Yeah, its been a massive difference to what we saw against Everton, Newcastle and the first half against Shaktar in the last couple of weeks. Still not brilliant but much more like what we're used to.
Hence the reason I bumped it. If we're going to use a thread to moan about players doing something wrong, we should use it to credit them when they get it right.
It's probably worth pointing out though that Villa really aren't putting any pressure on the midfield. There is acres of space for Giggs and Cleverley in front of our defence.
And Rooney too. He's played very deep so its effectively a 3 man midfield. Welbeck has done well too, making himself available and not giving their defence a chance to settle.
Canny believe I've witnessed one of our CM's in the box. Astonishing.
Just like Bayer away.
I knew it! They've finally picked up on it!
link:http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/15115/9185163/moyes-sets-the-tone
This thread is quite amazing. The games at the start of this thread was like watching Brazil of 1970 compared to the match tonight.
The opening post is a near perfect description of how we're still playing now.
The only difference is Scholes has retired and Kagawa has played averagely, and then been dropped in favour of nothing in particular.
If ever you needed evidence that our current problems aren't all the result of David Moyes.
The only difference is Scholes has retired and Kagawa has played averagely, and then been dropped in favour of nothing in particular.
If ever you needed evidence that our current problems aren't all the result of David Moyes.
The difference being we seemed a bit more ambitious then, there was a few times tonight with people calling for the ball in space and Carrick ignored them. Kagawa at one point got fed up and ran 30 yards to take the ball from Carrick's feet. Confidence/Balls/Instructions, no idea, but we're far more cautious yet far more error prone.
This post has also basically come true.
The warnings were there. Zombified arrogance has helped pave the way for our downfall. It can no longer be blamed on Scholes's lack of mobility.
Like I've said many times on here, we play some of the most static and dull football of any top tier European side.
It makes me wonder (even in Fergie's last couple of seasons as well) what kind of training drills we practice on movement in training, if any.
At times there is an amazing lack of understanding on the pitch between footballers who have played alongside each other for many seasons.
Compare to the lack of movement to the current well drilled German sides like Bayern and Dortmund in Europe and we're a million miles away from developing that team understanding and identity on the pitch.
It makes me wonder (even in Fergie's last couple of seasons as well) what kind of training drills we practice on movement in training, if any.
At times there is an amazing lack of understanding on the pitch between footballers who have played alongside each other for many seasons.
Compare to the lack of movement to the current well drilled German sides like Bayern and Dortmund in Europe and we're a million miles away from developing that team understanding and identity on the pitch.
At the start I gave Moyes the benefit of the doubt over our football style.. or lack there of, noting how drab we'd appeared under the last two years or so of Sir Alex reign, but fast forward months and months, we're seeing little difference, infact it looks worse if being honest, before we had at least moments (when needed) where we'd awaken form our slumber and conjure up some decent stuff.
It's a coaching fail in my book, I don't see how we can escape this any longer, If a technical coach like Martinez had access to the squad and our training, does anyone honestly think he wouldn't by now having us playing some basic pass and move stuff? I mean really, Moyes Everton were not an attractive side to watch in his decade there, his lack of funds is an oft used excuse on the subject, yet when you compare similarly Martinez, again, who got Swansea, Wigan and now Everton (small budgets) to play technical football regardless of the talent level of his squad.
That guy as an example is someone you can clearly see earning his weekly fee on the training pitch, Moyes is not a new manager, he wont change his spots 10+ years as a PL manager.
It's a coaching fail in my book, I don't see how we can escape this any longer, If a technical coach like Martinez had access to the squad and our training, does anyone honestly think he wouldn't by now having us playing some basic pass and move stuff? I mean really, Moyes Everton were not an attractive side to watch in his decade there, his lack of funds is an oft used excuse on the subject, yet when you compare similarly Martinez, again, who got Swansea, Wigan and now Everton (small budgets) to play technical football regardless of the talent level of his squad.
That guy as an example is someone you can clearly see earning his weekly fee on the training pitch, Moyes is not a new manager, he wont change his spots 10+ years as a PL manager.
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Compare it to Liverpool and we look like novices in comparison.
a 100 times this! For players who like playing pass and move football it must be quite annoying when you get yourself into a position to receive the ball and all that hard work is rewarded with a high risk long ball which literally accomplishes very little. The amount of times we bypass players who take up good positions in space is incredible. Just so we can play a long diagonal. And these diagonal balls arent incisive to make the opposition compromise the space.
Zombie passing of previous seasons seems like tiki take now in comparison.
I thought the football we were playing during the beginning of the thread was bad, but was I ever wrong.
I dislike this Zombie 2.0 update.
I dislike this Zombie 2.0 update.
The players just do not move. Last night was terrible. A player gets the ball and everyone is standing in their 4-4-2 positions like statues. It's horrendous and even under 12 matches see more tactical nous and innovation.
Our movement of the ball truly is shocking. The gaps between our defensive line and our midfield at times was staggering. You could see Rio and Vidic passing the ball to each other and apart from Carrick there wasn't a single midfielder or striker in sight of the camera. They all stood high up the pitch and waited for a long ball.
But the truth of the matter is the kind of football you play is down to what you practice with your players on the training pitch and of course the quality of your players but to suggest all of our players are useless and there is no way of getting them to play good football is just making a cheap excuse for Moyes. I think Sphaero wrote some fairly in detail post about how it was when Klopp arrived at Dortmund and that despite the team not being brilliant during his first two years with them the changes where visible from the very start.
And that's my main problem with Moyes by now that I'm not seeing any changes for the better. The football is still unbelievable dire and has even gotten worse imo. All the traits of great modern football are absent from this team. No movement of the ball, no compactness, barely any pressing just the same old routine of either hoofing it out of defense or crossing it in.
But our passes from the back are dire because the only player from our defenders that is somehow a good passer is Evans and he seems to be more injured then not these days. Our crosses are laughable because our wide players are abysmal at it and just blindly hammer the ball somewhere near the box. It's just shocking really that we have made 0 progress under Moyes in every part that we lamented even the last couple of years under Fergie and the truth that some of the problems have even gotten worse under Moyes.
Why the feck do none of our players move? Seriously, they just all stand there, every single fecking time. Its been going on for years now, but this season its reached new heights of stupidity. You watch the likes of Arsenal, City, Bayern etc and all the front players are constantly on the move, constantly trying to find space and make themselves available for a pass. Very rarely does the man on the ball have no options to pass to.
Yet we're the complete and utter opposite. Our players just stand in their 'set position'. As if they think 'well I'm playing left wing, so I must just stand here and not dare move out of position. I'm sure eventually someone will pass to me'. Its just so ridiculous and retarded its difficult to put into words. Its like we're tying one hand behind our back before we've even started. Why do they do it? Are they just lazy? Is it tactics?....I just don't get it. Players like Young, Rooney, RVP, Mata are all proven to be able to play in a variety of different positions, they have the ability to do so, so why do they just all stand there, like gormless statues, expecting our midfielders to oull out wonder pass after wonder pass, to pick them out?....My head hurts thinking about how unbelievably stupid it is.
Yet we're the complete and utter opposite. Our players just stand in their 'set position'. As if they think 'well I'm playing left wing, so I must just stand here and not dare move out of position. I'm sure eventually someone will pass to me'. Its just so ridiculous and retarded its difficult to put into words. Its like we're tying one hand behind our back before we've even started. Why do they do it? Are they just lazy? Is it tactics?....I just don't get it. Players like Young, Rooney, RVP, Mata are all proven to be able to play in a variety of different positions, they have the ability to do so, so why do they just all stand there, like gormless statues, expecting our midfielders to oull out wonder pass after wonder pass, to pick them out?....My head hurts thinking about how unbelievably stupid it is.
It can only be tactics, I refuse to believe we can't do what worse and lower ranked teams do in every match.
It's obvious that the team does not work on off the ball movement on the training pitch. This stems from the manager. We all hoped that after SAF retired, we would see a change in playing style as we've been playing uninspiring football for the past few seasons. I refuse to believe that it's the players. Look at Martinez at Everton. He's brought a change to their playing style within a few months. Moyes has not changed a single thing about this United squad, except perhaps making them look even shittier and more emphasis on hoofball and crosses. At least the team under SAF last season tried to play through the middle. Our players may not be on the level of Bayern or Barca, but it's ridiculous that we're getting outpressed by teams near the relegation zone.
It baffles me that some of our fans think we cant do anything about some of our issues with playing style even though there are definite alternative ways to play. Obviously easier said than done but it's part of what you're paid to. Find a solution which at least does a decent job of getting good production from your players.
The difference is that we are not scoring while retaining our leaky as feck defence but only worse. At this rate we are going, not only will we be getting our record low on points, the same might just happen for the amount of goals scored and a record high in goals conceded.
I expected us to fall of the perch a little when Fergie left. Getting a "premier league" proven manager was supposed to help us ease the process a little. This is just a total calamity. Even the O'Shea-Giggs partnership in midfield during the "Dark years" of 02-04 made us play better football than this.
If you watch the games closely though, the front players do move. There are times when they're all moving, constantly.
The problem is the likes of Carrick sit in a static position behind them, and take so long to play a pass that any movement is irrelevant. When we had to do without Carrick, Rio and Vidic for a bit, it mysteriously stopped happening nearly as much.
It's like they've got it droend into their heads that they've earnt the right to play football without moving or showing any degree of urgency, and the amount of times its bitten them on the arse now, either they aren't capable of changing, or are just never going to bother to.
It sometimes feels like after the 4-4 against Everton (probably our best attacking performance in recent years) we've decided we're never going to attempt to play football ever again.
Movement is something taught from the age of about 9. Pass and move, make yourself available, keep moving etc etc.
I refuse to believe players as good as the ones we have need to be told this. It must come from the coaches: Keep your shape, be rigid or whatever safe nonsense hasn't worked for ages but let's persist with it anyway.
I refuse to believe players as good as the ones we have need to be told this. It must come from the coaches: Keep your shape, be rigid or whatever safe nonsense hasn't worked for ages but let's persist with it anyway.
We miss Paul Scholes.
It does. I was always told, pass the ball then move into an unmarked position to make yourself immediately available to be passed back to. You pass the ball the way you would like to receive it, and help your teammates out by giving them options and not leaving them stranded. You play the way you would like others to play with you. If someone passes you the ball and leaves you with no options then you'd hate that obviously, so don't do it to your teammates when you have it. It's all very easy to understand.
Yep, and until we sort it out the idea of this interchanging front 4 that we all want to see seems unrealistic. Hence Valencia and Young.
We played some brilliant stuff that day. A bit like the first few games of 2011-12.
Those games (and the Everton game) were also memorable for a horribly exposed back four and far too many goals conceded.
You have to get the balance right.
The main thing with the Everton match was, as I'm sure I've said a tedious amount of times on here, that Fergie thought we'd won even though our midfield was completely dead on its arse, and he refused to make substitions so obvious that I was screaming them at the television.
And then the next year he starts Jones against Everton and he completely nullifies Fellaini. Makes you want to fecking cry.
And then the next year he starts Jones against Everton and he completely nullifies Fellaini. Makes you want to fecking cry.
That Kagawa video shows him moving constantly whilst our other players are standing still looking at whoever is on the ball waiting for them to do something rather than moving into space to make themselves available and provide an option.
I've noticed it several times when Mata is on the ball as well. Our players just stand still watching not attempting to make runs into space or move closer. It's baffling because it should be something basic and instinctive.
There is very little team movement and shape. They rarely move in unison, and one winger has to be pinned out by the touchline at all times.
I've noticed it several times when Mata is on the ball as well. Our players just stand still watching not attempting to make runs into space or move closer. It's baffling because it should be something basic and instinctive.
There is very little team movement and shape. They rarely move in unison, and one winger has to be pinned out by the touchline at all times.
Yup. But we just defended badly in general. It wasnt really connected with our cracking attacking play. It's just that we did one aspect really well and one aspect really badly.
I don't agree that the front 4 (whoever they are) do move, certainly not as much as other 'top' teams. They obviously don't just literaly stand there on the spot, but there is a distinctive lack of movement and variety from the attacking players. Even when they do move (as that Kagawa video from the other day shows) its never as a unit, its all individually. There's no clear plan, its just induvidual players occasionaly wondering about a bit, without any real intent or purporse.
Agree with your assesement of the midfield though, they're not helping the situation at all. But looking at the personel, I don't think that will change (sadly).