I think people who are against Moyes don't need to rely on "gut feeling" to predict that he will fail. It's the people who are still supporting him are the ones who are trying to stick to gut feeling more than anything else.
Support David Moyes thread
- Thread starter Danny_
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I get that, and in ways agree.
My point is that they are perfectly fine to have gut feelings yet they don't give us the same leeway.
If you want him gone it can be just because you're not feeling it, but if you're still supporting him you have to highlight every reason why, or else you're called every kind of ignoramus. I don't mind if someone's being reasonable about it, quite a few have been which is great, but quite a few have just been attacking people for being positive and demanding unreasonable things considering their level of input.
Says the guy who today posted that his positivenes about Moyes succedding here comes from blind faith. To be fair, I genuinely think that no-one has criticized Moyes on gut feeling. It was a combination of his style from Everton, his style here, results and transfer window fiasco. I guess that all of these critics have been justified by Moyes actions though I acknowledge that we may simply see things differently.
That's because I didn't want a crapstorm for posting it to be honest. I thought the Palace game was promising.
I suppose some of us have to be optimistic, fair play.
The second half was promising to be fair, we finally saw those 4 players in attack and we won. However it wasn't spectacular and in one another day we would have drawn (if it wasn't for pen). The biggest problem though was that how after a semi decent he went back to square 0 by reintroducing Young/Valencia instead of playing Kagawa/Januzaj which in turn resulted with us having a shoot in the target.
Europe's always been different though to be fair. If you focus on league form then there have been improvements, admittedly not enough yet, but they're there.
Fair enough. The vast majority of stick Moyes has had has been thoroughly deserved, I reckon. If he turns this around then he'll have to change who he is, and if he does, I'll be very, pleasantly so, surprised. If he turns it around from here he's a genius, infact.
Really? Imo we've gotten worse in the league as the season has gone on, especially since New year's.
European form was one of Moyes' few bright spots until the Olympiakos game.
It's only one game though. We've had other spells this season where we've had a few games where we've looked decent, for example. If we can sustain that improvement over a number of games, including against a team near or above us, then it can properly be seen as improvement. Until then, it's little more than a decent performance against a team we've got no excuse not to beat anyway, with all due respect to Palace who have done well recently but are still a side where nothing but a win is a good result.
You just agreed with me Cheesy. Hate to break it to you.
Know exacly what you're saying, but my only point was Ferguson was given time and was still wanted out because it wasn't happening. I think Moyes has probably only got this transfer window to fix it or he is done. Unless we get spanked by both City and Liverpool...
I agree but think the palace game could be the start of a turning point for Moyes. It wasn't the best game we've played but it was certainly the best showing this year with plenty to build on.
Moyes wasn't my choice, but I still hope against hope he can turn it around. Mainly because it would be a shame for us to go down that route, but there's certainly no reason why it cannot happen at United. It's happened before...
Admittedly, I've not really analysed the "debate". But my gut feeling (sorry) is that most of those criticising Moyes have done so by pointing to something concrete, anything from appointing a super inexperienced coaching staff, messing up in the transfer window, being happy with performances when they've been bland, persisting with 442, not being positive, not affecting our players and appearing to have no plan whatsoever. I think there's been quite a few posts that have leveled justified criticism against Moyes. As well as the board, SAF and the players.
I've not really seen as diverse argumentation from the "give him time" camp. And like @Danny1982 I think that side of the argument is more based on gut feeling, or based on having a gut feeling about SAF's gut feeling. Or romanticism about doing the "right thing" and whatnot. I am one of the thousands who wants to see him turn a sharp corner and all of a sudden look like a top class manager who knows what he's doing. But it's only based on hope, nothing tangible. And I don't insult people on here by calling them names. Why do people feel the need? Anyhow, I'm still waiting on a proper debate. So far it's faith vs. real world to me...
If we want to be entirely fair, it was a performance which would have generated negative debate last season under Fergie and the Zombie thread would have been bumped.
It was though the best performance from us in 2014 and I hoped that Moyes has learnt his lesson and will continue playing something similarily which in turn will see us improve. However, I can never understand his decisions to go again shit and play all the underperformers (some because he didn't have alternatives, some because he chose to) which make me believe that the Palace game was somehow a lucky consequence of Moyes deciding to rest his assets (Young and Valencia) for the more important game. One way or another, we will see soon if that game was an one of of Moyes will again start the shit players.
To be honest that post wasn't directed to you, I understood what you were saying, however I believe the poster that quoted you (in reference to the photo) was trying to take it in a different direction.
Ahh. Fair enough. We are usually like-minded so I was a bit puzzled.
Obama got one for nothing in fairness.
no worries.I'm not sure if I agree with that. I think that if it resembled the zombie football then it would have been largely criticised, which it wasn't. The general mood after that game was largely positive. We played a completely different style of football, more interchanging and good ball retention. In fact, thinking about it, it wasn't zombie football at all. I remember some really nice, progressive, one-touch passing in midfield.
Unfortunately, we did see more zombie football against Olympiakos, which is disappointing. Which system Moyes will look to in the long term is still to be decided. Still, I'm guessing it's more likely to feature Mata and Januzaj than Young and Valencia, who I think are a major reason we play such poor football at times.
This presumption that Moyes is telling the players to play this way is probably a bit wide of the mark, though. One of the aspects of football which separates the top players from the rest is their speed of thought, good technique and one touch, fluid football. Would Moyes really tell his players to play slowly with no movement? I just can't see it. We've seen proof of him on the touchline going ballistic because our players were passing the ball backwards etc in one game. My belief is that the players are in such a deep mental rut that they just can't get out of it. Every conceded goal or bad result is further compounding the situation. Moyes takes his share of the blame too, but I don't think this level of football is in any way representative of the football that Moyes intends to play.
A decent performance against Liverpool and City would go a little way to alleviate my fears and restore some seriously dented faith...
Ok since you kind of accept that Young and Valencia are the reason for our style of play here's another conundrum. Why wasn't Adnan play in the Olympiakos game when he's barely featured in previous weeks. Yes he started the CP game but post Olympiakos had a fortnight long break. Isn't Moyes culpable when he himself has the final say in team selections. Janu wan't even in the matchday squad and that baffles me. I'm not barking mad for slagging DM as some think. I have justified reasons and concern for the club under Moyes.
I don't know why Januzaj didn't play. The team pissed me off also. The only thing I could think is that he's just gone to keep us solid with a view to winning the tie at Old Trafford. He's ended up with egg on his face in doing so, but it's not a decision that I'm unfamiliar with after seeing Fergies approach to these ties in the past.
Another question that should be asked is why are we no longer able to rely on two-thirds of the wing options that we had coming into this season? Obviously we've added Januzaj and Mata into the equation, but it's still a bit of a poor situation if you ask me.
The olympiakos game was a mistake by the way. He cocked up.
It's a mixture of things why I've stuck with Moyes to be honest:
Not enough time - I know most of you will roll your eyes at this and that is fine. I genuinely have always thought a manager needs two years minimum before judgement (barring gross misconduct), Moyes' reign has had an impact on that though, moving it 6 months sooner, so I'm not going pretend it's been pretty so far.
Injuries - Not the usual stuff, we have always had it unlucky with injuries just like Le Arse so it's clearly something a manager at our club must deal with. However our key players have missed a lot of football and I think that has had a big effect on our season.
The Players - I'm hearing that we were amazing last season all of a sudden. Whilst we did happen to walk the league we had it easier because no team other than us put up a decent challenge results wise. We were nowhere near as exciting as people seem to be remembering, and moaning was strife on the forums, with a few saying Fergie had lost it as a manager. Albeit nothing like the level we've seen this season and fair enough. But the slow indecisive football hasn't suddenly crept in over the summer, the signs were there and people already wanted improvement then. Some of these players have played for Fergie for a long time and whilst the effort is there, and would be there for any manager in my opinion, the belief isn't there yet. Losing Fergie as a manager is obviously going to hit on a players confidence, and it was widespread across the squad. I don't think this would be different no matter what manager you replace him with. The non performers would have been there and he was always using this season to work out as much as possible from the squad. This has meant chopping and changing and playing the players that probably won't be here in two years time, he did say he was giving them all a fair chance and has. He does seem to be beginning to figure out his strongest squad, as we saw against Palace, I'm expecting to see that line up more often.
Hope - This is where I spout my romantic shite, and I acknowledge its shite. I would absolutely love to prove the Chelsea/City way of knee jerk decisions wrong. I completely admit that things are looking bad right now, considering the last game, but I'll always have faith in the club and I'm hoping things will work out. It's been a massive transition, and in my opinion it was always going to take time for the dust to settle. I'm not convinced he's going to do it, but I'm not convinced he won't either.
It's a mixture of things why I've stuck with Moyes to be honest:
Not enough time - I know most of you will roll your eyes at this and that is fine. I genuinely have always thought a manager needs two years minimum before judgement (barring gross misconduct), Moyes' reign has had an impact on that though, moving it 6 months sooner, so I'm not going pretend it's been pretty so far.
Injuries - Not the usual stuff, we have always had it unlucky with injuries just like Le Arse so it's clearly something a manager at our club must deal with. However our key players have missed a lot of football and I think that has had a big effect on our season.
The Players - I'm hearing that we were amazing last season all of a sudden. Whilst we did happen to walk the league we had it easier because no team other than us put up a decent challenge results wise. We were nowhere near as exciting as people seem to be remembering, and moaning was strife on the forums, with a few saying Fergie had lost it as a manager. Albeit nothing like the level we've seen this season and fair enough. But the slow indecisive football hasn't suddenly crept in over the summer, the signs were there and people already wanted improvement then. Some of these players have played for Fergie for a long time and whilst the effort is there, and would be there for any manager in my opinion, the belief isn't there yet. Losing Fergie as a manager is obviously going to hit on a players confidence, and it was widespread across the squad. I don't think this would be different no matter what manager you replace him with. The non performers would have been there and he was always using this season to work out as much as possible from the squad. This has meant chopping and changing and playing the players that probably won't be here in two years time, he did say he was giving them all a fair chance and has. He does seem to be beginning to figure out his strongest squad, as we saw against Palace, I'm expecting to see that line up more often.
Hope - This is where I spout my romantic shite, and I acknowledge its shite. I would absolutely love to prove the Chelsea/City way of knee jerk decisions wrong. I completely admit that things are looking bad right now, considering the last game, but I'll always have faith in the club and I'm hoping things will work out. It's been a massive transition, and in my opinion it was always going to take time for the dust to settle. I'm not convinced he's going to do it, but I'm not convinced he won't either.
I think he will be given the time, not sure what he's done to deserve it but the club seem to back him fully. If he's not gone by the summer, he will be here for at least one more full season.
Disagree, if we're on coarse for another mid-table finish next season he won't survive Christmas.
That's actually an incredibly simple one to answer.......young players can not play in every game.....that's a fact...they need to be play in certain games and be rested in others...I was not surprised at all that he wasn't playing
The biggest question we all want to know is they Moyes is trying to turn us into Stoke City as fast as he can. He seems to be the only one that doesn't realize that he is going to need a better backroom team that are more clued in with modern tactics to help him break away from flintstones tactics
I can see the excuses now, World Cup year, bad pre season, we've been unlucky, new players haven't settled into a new league, someone farted in the hotel and we had to evacuate in the middle of the night.
I just don't know what he has to do to get sacked, I'd love him to turn it around and prove the majority of us wrong, but I fear he will be given yet another season with 'his team' before the board decide to act.
Hope I'm wrong.
Fare dues to ya Tomalonge, you're fecking positive, I'll give you that! While I agree with you in that I'd love to prove Chelsea and City wrong in their decision making process, stability is one thing,but we need stability in results and consistently good football, which Moyes offers neither(currently). We'll never fire through managers like City/Chelsea do, but I'd say the club feel it's right to pick someone they know can bring the stability needed on the football pitch. Sadly, I see Moyes as doing neither.
My biggest worry is the excuse of "bedding in so many new players" up to christmas at which point we'll evaluate the teams performance over the 2nd half once again, at which point Fergie will probably try and get him a 3rd year and final chance.
I've already mentally written off next season, hope to god it's only 1 more mind.
Against Olympiacos though? Considering the situation we're in generally? This was the time to cut out players who have let him down so far and trust in the talent of Januzaj and Kagawa. This was the time to be brave and a bit cavalier, instead of which Moyes was timid and fearful.
This is my real problem with Moyes. It's not so much the situation we're in but the fact that Moyes' reaction to it seems likely to drive us further backwards.
He's trying to fight his defensive, game blocking tactics in favour of a more modern attacking approach, and it's not natural for him.
We've gone away countless times over the last few years in the knockout stages and not looked particuarly adventurous and first and foremost to keep a clean sheet as priority, in that sense I think Moyes is being unfairly criticised for the cautious original approach to the Olympiacos game, the problem was, when we actually conceeded a goal we couldnt get raise ourselves out of 1st gear, we looked lost, idealess and directionless, whereas under SAF we'd have come out 2nd half an most probably pulled a goal back despite originally entering the tie negatively.
This has been a worryingly consistent trait under Moyes.
Crossing works in Fifa. Why the Hate? We just have incapable fullbacks and wingers when it comes to crossing. Moyes had the best crossing left back in the world and he had Fellaini in there to put it in. It is extremely effective.
Have to be honest, he hasn't lost me yet, but if we're out of it by Christmas again -- after a big summer spend -- I'd think it's time for him to go.
So why persist with it?
Why become the worst side for creating chances from a central position in the league with player's like Rooney, Kagawa, Januzaj and Mata available?
Slightly OT here: Is it true Young gave the ball away 24 times in Greece?
I have to admit that I wasn't overly disappointed over Fergie's retirement because I felt we actually needed to go on a different direction, play a different brand of football, and that he probably wasn't going to change anymore after many years in which he has evolved with the times. So even though I fully agree our match in Greece was in some ways not too different to what we've done in the past, it's still a huge minus for me when it comes to Moyes.