'Tactical' fouls

[matherto]

Right i'm starting it here to stop derailing the Pogba thread. Mods if you wanna move my posts into here to clear it that's fine, or delete them if needs be because they're ostensibly OT.

I don't think these 'tactical' or 'clever' or 'taking one for the team' fouls should be acceptable at all. It's not clever, it's just blatant cheating. You can't leg someone up when they're running at you and not go for the ball so why are these types of fouls just acceptable? Especially when they're usually from behind and any attempt to stop someone from behind is usually harshly penalised.

It's not an attempt at a tackle, it's just blatant cheating to stop the opponent and taking the easy way out to do it. It's cynical in the extreme and quite often it's not a good hack either.

Pogba yesterday did it and it should've been a red card but because of the culture of the game it's just accepted as something that happens.

If referees started properly penalising people for what is for all intents and purposes, an assault, then eventually players would stop doing it. If in the meantime that means we end up with 7 v 7 because they crack down on it, then so be it. I don't care.

I don't like seeing it and wish it would change. It's up there with diving and not getting booked, holding a player in the box and not being penalised and not being able to touch the goalkeeper without it being a foul even if you've gone for the ball and never once looked at them as things in modern football that are just seemingly okay.

I don't want to see our players doing it and I hate seeing other team's players get away with it too. It's a shitty thing to do on a football pitch. Guardiola's teams are masters of it and didn't we fecking hate Barcelona when he was in charge for being that type of team?

if you're okay with it, you're okay with it.

Discuss.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's perfectly fine.

 

[Minimalist]

I couldn't care less which way you treat it, provided it's consistent. Want to send them off for it, fine. Do it for everyone though.

I thought they usually got yellow cards for it though?

Bit of a can of worm though to open. You could start carding people for taking the ball into the corner at this rate (not in the spirit of the game).

 

[MadDogg]

They aren't 'acceptable', but they also aren't straight red cards. It's a foul and a yellow card, simple.

 

[SuperiorXI]

City are one of the worst at this so it was good to see them getting a taste of their own medicine. Sane was at it all match and was he even booked?

Part of the game these days unfortunately.

 

[Judas]

Hate them, but mostly because so many go unpunished. I get the idea, it's smart, I just wish they were dealt with better.

 

[matherto]

I couldn't care less which way you treat it, provided it's consistent. Want to send them off for it, fine. Do it for everyone though.

I thought they usually got yellow cards for it though?

Bit of a can of worm though to open. You could start carding people for taking the ball into the corner at this rate (not in the spirit of the game).

They do get yellow cards but it should be harsher because it's nothing but cheating of the worst kind.

As you said, it opens a can of worms. I don't like them taking it into the corner albeit I understand why they do it but they're not actually breaking a rule there regardless of the spirit of the game. These fouls are and they're worse than just a mistimed tackle because the thought process of the player is just 'stop the opposition and to hell with how'.

 

[SirAF]

It’s a part of the game. You play within the boundaries of what each ref will allow.

 

[adexkola]

I feel these kinds of fouls only get ire when they're done to stop a counter. But when done in the purpose of stopping an opponent from gaining rhythm in their passing it's encouraged. "Get stuck in" and all that.

I say that to say, the current framework works. Yellow card for egregious fouls. Red cards for goal scoring opportunities.

 

[Champ]

Man city/Peps teams have this mastered. They press the ball as close to the opponent's box as possible, as aggressive as possible and if they don't win the ball then they produce a foul more often than not, and more often than not a deliberate foul.

This not only stops the counter attack, but also means due to the location of the foul, a yellow card will never be issued. Clever if you ask me. More teams should do it.

 

[matherto]

It's perfectly fine.

You're quite happy to be hacked down and kicked from behind as you're running then?

 

[limerickcitykid]

They aren't acceptable, hence why yellow cards are given for them.

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

I think tactical fouls are fine.

I personally thought on first viewing that Pogba's foul was on the edge of being a kick out / tackle from behind, but the replay showed that there wasn't quite that much to it.

 

[Zoo]

City are the best at this.

I have no idea how Sane wasn’t booked yesterday.

 

[matherto]

They aren't acceptable, hence why yellow cards are given for them.

I think the fact that they only get yellows (and quite often don't) shows they're acceptable. The reality is they're much worse than they're perceived by referees and players in the modern game.

 

[SirAF]

I think the fact that they only get yellows (and quite often don't) shows they're acceptable. The reality is they're much worse than they're perceived by referees and players in the modern game.

YOU think they are worse than how they are perceived by the referees and players.

 

[Pexbo]

I think the fact that they only get yellows (and quite often don't) shows they're acceptable. The reality is they're much worse than they're perceived by referees and players in the modern game.

So the fact they are punished, shows they are acceptable. You've lost me there.

 

[The Stain]

You're quite happy to be hacked down and kicked from behind as you're running then?

If it hinders a good attack or counter then i would always encourage it. Besides, a tactical foul doesn't have to be from behind. You can stick a leg out, pull the shirt or whatever. If you get away with it without a booking, great. If not, other players can do it.

I still rage when it happens to United, mind.

 

[groovyalbert]

But they're not acceptable - more often than not a player committing a professional foul will get booked and a free-kick to the opposition is awarded.

It would be very dangerous and difficult for referees to make them a red card offence as intentionality has to be assumed, which is almost impossible to regulate/gauge. It's why we currently have the relatively lenient rules regarding hand-balls in the penalty area. The rules here perhaps aren't ideal, but to go the other way would cause havoc and the potential for even more inconsistencies.

As others have pointed out, professional fouls are part of the game and certain players (Dembele, Herrera, etc) become more valuable to their teams due to their ability to manipulate this well. Some aren't good at it - I remember Rooney against West Ham in 14/15 was sent off trying to commit one of these fouls. Whatever your stance, it's hard to see this changing. Some might compare them to diving but I'm not sure if the comparison works entirely. More often than not, those committing professional fouls aren't actively trying to deceive the referee, instead they're demonstrating an awareness of the laws of the game and playing close to the edge of them. You get this in many professions. If it's done right, "fair" play to you. If not, you can't really complain about getting punished for it.

 

[limerickcitykid]

I think the fact that they only get yellows (and quite often don't) shows they're acceptable. The reality is they're much worse than they're perceived by referees and players in the modern game.

So are deliberate handballs acceptable?

 

[Nick7]

I think the fact that they only get yellows (and quite often don't) shows they're acceptable. The reality is they're much worse than they're perceived by referees and players in the modern game.

That's not how acceptable works in football.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I have no problem with it. If the ref is doing his job right you will get a yellow card for an intentional foul and I don't see why you would need to penalize anymore than that. Unless of course there is a clear goal scoring opportunity, and then it would be a red card. So the punishment fits the crime. Problem is the refs often just give a free kick and that's it...

 

[Grinner]

Perfectly acceptable

 

[matherto]

So are deliberate handballs acceptable?

No, why would they be?

 

[roonster09]

Like said in Pogba thread before you started with insults, it's dealt with yellow card and yellow card is the second highest punishment in the game dealing with fouls

No game will end with 11 players if players are sent off for tactical fouls.

 

[SirAF]

No, why would they be?

It’s a pretty obvious point he’s trying to make.

 

[limerickcitykid]

No, why would they be?

Well the fact they are only given yellow cards shows they are acceptable, no?

 

[Aboutreika18]

@matherto, Zonal Marking agrees:

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/blog...tball-time-for-the-rulemakers-to-stamp-it-out

 

[r3idy]

It is part of the game now, unfortunately. The problem you got though is players like Fernandinio would literally play 5 games a season if they were a straight red for' tactical fouls'. As a few posters have mentioned, City have this mastered. Look at the game at OT this year and Otamendi, Fernandinio etc literally stopped Utd making any kind of momentum. Where do you draw the line though? Other side of the coin is you goto Anfield this season and Jose drilled United to take every corner, goal kick throw in at walking pace.

 

[Eriku]

They used to piss me off, but now I see it like sacrificing a pawn. It IS clever play, within the rules, and it doesn't endanger anybody's health. If it does and is intentional, then that's something quite different.

No change for me.

 

[Ødegaard]

They aren't 'acceptable', but they also aren't straight red cards. It's a foul and a yellow card, simple.

Problem is that it's most often not given when teams press high because the ref doesn't recognize it as cynical for some shit reason.

Mind, i don't think it should be changed into a red card. Just get some consistency back as referees allow it to happen (no yellow) if you do it high enough up the pitch and you are closer to the opponent when he gets the ball. They'll give a free kick but the counter is stopped.

 

[SirAF]

They used to piss me off, but now I see it like sacrificing a pawn. It IS clever play, within the rules, and it doesn't endanger anybody's health. If it does and is intentional, then that's something quite different.

No change for me.

This.

It just seems overly moralistic or something to be outraged at tactical fouls!

 

[MadDogg]

Problem is that it's most often not given when teams press high because the ref doesn't recognize it as cynical for some shit reason.

Yep.

There absolutely should be more emphasis on this happening and for referees to watch for it. That's the big issue here and I'd love to see it being highlighted publicly.

The OP wanting them to be straight red cards is ridiculously over-the-top though.

 

[Rado_N]

Pogba yesterday did it and it should've been a red card

No it shouldn't.

 

[11101]

Stopping a promising attack is written in the rules as a yellow card offence. Like with most things the poor standard of refereeing means it's not enforced consistently, but the rules don't need to be changed.

 

[VeevaVee]

I can accept it as part of the game. It's quite funny when it's not happened to your team and it winds all the players up. As opposed to diving which is just lame either way.

 

[matherto]

@matherto, Zonal Marking agrees:

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/blog...tball-time-for-the-rulemakers-to-stamp-it-out

Glad someone does. That article sums it up perfectly.

 

[matherto]

Well the fact they are only given yellow cards shows they are acceptable, no?

And they shouldn't be, they should be reds.

But yes, it does show that apparently they're acceptable.

There's so much 'acceptable' in the modern game that shouldn't be.

 

[matherto]

Like said in Pogba thread before you started with insults, it's dealt with yellow card and yellow card is the second highest punishment in the game dealing with fouls

No game will end with 11 players if players are sent off for tactical fouls.

And I'm quite happy for players to be sent off as a supposedly OTT measure until they stop because clearly a yellow card is deemed okay by players to blatantly cheat and effectively get away with it.

 

[OldSchoolManc]

Stopping a promising attack is written in the rules as a yellow card offence. Like with most things the poor standard of refereeing means it's not enforced consistently, but the rules don't need to be changed.

Yep, it’s already in the rules, but because Pep came out and said City players get fouled all the time, there seems to be some misplaced sympathy towards them from referees.
Truth is, they are as bad as anyone for nasty tackles. Their cynical pushes, shirt tugs and ankle clips are very often not even blown for.