You think deliberate handball should be a red?
'Tactical' fouls
- Thread starter matherto
- Start date
Lets not have more stupid rules that attempt to judge 'intent' just leading to more grey areas. Tactical fouls leading to bookings are fine unless they contain any of the criteria needed for a red.
City are masters of the art
People are really underestimating the yellow card.
How do you know how they perceive them, have you asked them all?
Or do you mean it's YOUR view?
Using the evidence that players just carry on doing them and the commentators and ex-pros call them clever for it I can tell how they perceive them. It's not hard is it?
Exactly. Players are even scared to win the ball after yellow card.
Yeah, it's completely against the rules isn't it? If it's deliberate too then you know exactly what you're doing. Why on earth wouldn't it be a red?
It's been a huge bug-bear of mine for a while that a player can get a yellow card for something as trivial as celebrating a goal but tripping a player who is about to launch a dangerous counter or is in a threatening attacking position is also only worth a yellow!
I don't advocate red cards because we would end up with 5-a-side but I would like to see ten-minute sin-bins trialed for tackle's like Pogba's yesterday
I don't advocate red cards because we would end up with 5-a-side but I would like to see ten-minute sin-bins trialed for tackle's like Pogba's yesterday
So the yellow card should just be removed from the game - any infringement of the rules is a red card by your 'logic'.
Player removes his shirt celebrating? He knows the rules and he knows he's doing it - red card.
Yup, exactly this. It’s quite clearly a Pep tactic, all his teams have done it. If the opposition break the first line of press, foul them. As City (and all of Pep’s previous teams) do it so high up the pitch, they very rarely receive yellow cards for it.
Its hard for you to answer a question apparently or stick to one viewpoint (without an insult).
You said referees and players, now you say commentators and ex-pros. Which is it? Or have you personally spoken to them all?
What you seem to be is anti Pogba and went off on one in the Pogba thread trying to use a nominal foul (which rightly got a yellow) as a stick to hit him. If your issue is tactical fouls, I'm sure you made dozens of similar comments about Danilo, Kompany, De Bruyne (a few minutes after coming on), etc etc?
Yeah?
No, the problem is that in football the sanction system is relatively bad, there is basically no penalizing sanction to a cynical foul other than a red or a penalty, because the way to score a goal are relatively limited. If you compare it with Rugby, a cynical foul will generally lead to a penalty that will often lead to a genuine scoring opportunity whether from a scrum, a line out or a free kick. And then they have the sin bin for repeated offenders.
In football, you have to go to the yellow cards otherwise you did nothing, but a yellow card is relatively harsh for a first offense and it's an individual sanction that can have huge and definitive consequences, I'm pretty sure that if you simply added a sin bin, players would be more careful and referees would feel a lot freer.
Players always move up the line a few yards with throw ins.... red card?
Taking a free-kicks when the ball is moving is against the rules... red card?
Goalie deliberately takes 15 seconds for a goal kick late on... red card?
Yeah. I didn't like it when City players did it either and wanted them sent off too. I'm consistent in that view.
And it's the same, from referees and players to commentators and ex-pros, they've all bought into it being 'part of the game'. I don't need to speak to any of them or all of them which is seemingly what you want to know that they think it's okay. The whole point of a forum and making a thread is to discuss an opinion and that's what I'm doing, obviously that's not the opinion of those refs/players/commentators/ex-pros. I'm glad we can have differing opinions.
And Pogba's kick wasn't a nominal foul. He WAS wound up after what happened to Lingard (which itself was a wound up response to what Young did to Aguero) and he charged back and kicked the City player. It was more than a tactical foul, it was a lash out.
I'm not anti-Pogba, I'm anti-being a cnut on the pitch. Some fans are quite happy for their players to be cnuts on the pitch.
The insults came because people were cherry picking from my responses and not acknowledging the fact that I had noted City players were doing it all game and then telling me I should be mentioning them. That winds me up no end, perhaps I should kick you all from behind whilst you're running and see how happy you are about it.
You (quote) ... "I can tell how they perceive them".
Without speaking to them? Wow, go you. Do the lottery much?
A deliberate handball is much more serious than any of those offences. All of those are either a warning or in the case of the goalie timewasting, a yellow.
There are nuances to the game y'know. This is one nuance that needs to be more serious than it currently is.
If players continually 'tactically' foul someone and gladly take the yellow card, what does that tell you about their perception of it?
If referees only give a yellow for it, what does that tell you about their perception of it?
If commentators and ex-pros call them clever and laugh about it like it's nothing, what does that tell you about their perception of it?
Or do you need to speak to everyone personally in depth before you have any clue about their thoughts and intentions?
And this is the thread to encompass the City players too. I discussed Pogba in the Pogba thread because it's a thread about Pogba, hardly surprising is it? Albeit I did also mention the City players in those posts but apparently you chose to ignore that.
Big day.
First time used "ignore".
First time used "ignore".
If you get a second yellow you get sent off from the match and miss the next match. And if you get enough yellows over the season you miss a match. So even now you can get away with a cynical tactical foul once a match at most.
I don't think there is any competent referee that wouldn't give a yellow card for denying an obvious counter-attacking opportunity. However City commit the foul before the opposing side has had a chance to commit to the counter. That is what gets people riled up, as that takes away opportunities to try and test them, plus now you have to attack a set defense. Still I think the rules as is are fair. A yellow card should be restricted to when the counter is actually on, and a player then stops it without trying to win the ball. When you have the ball in your own box and you get fouled? Not enough to warrant a yellow.
I think they are generally pointless.
If you are going to tackle someone on the half way line when they still have half a pitch and your own defense to beat, then it's a bit pathetic. That's the usual situation with these 'professional' fouls.
If you are going to tackle someone on the half way line when they still have half a pitch and your own defense to beat, then it's a bit pathetic. That's the usual situation with these 'professional' fouls.
What team do you support @matherto ?
If it’s United, then you should’ve been pleased with the Pogba tackle.
If you support City, then you are being a hypocrite as they are and have been one of the most cynical fouling teams ever.
If it’s United, then you should’ve been pleased with the Pogba tackle.
If you support City, then you are being a hypocrite as they are and have been one of the most cynical fouling teams ever.
Exactly. The players doing them know what they are gonna get so no problem for me as long as they're done in a manner that doesn't injure the opponent
I'm a United fan. I was pleased with him getting wound up and showing the passion required of both a United player and a United player in a derby against those cnuts.
I just have a serious dislike of the whole attitude around those fouls. Call me triggered if you like, they just really rub me up the wrong way.
I'm well aware of City and their cynical fouls, it's a Guardiola hallmark and he needs to called out on it and the players punished properly so they can't get away with it. Sad that they will because a) they get ignored due to their wonderful football and the love affair people have with them and b) it's only a yellow anyway so it doesn't matter much.
Within the laws of the game, cynical fouls are yellows.
The problem then becomes that high pressing teams get away with cynical fouls more often than those who don't.
What you are proposing is improvements to the rule-book, not pointing out current faults in how it is applied.
Contact in the box during corners and free kicks should be penalized more severely then.
Football isn't solely about free flowing attacking play. If we take away tactical fouls and such "dark arts", then the teams with the superior attacking players will always win. To maintain a level of competition you need to give the defensive side of the game some leeway as well. It would be a pretty boring game with the deck stacked in the favor of the attackers all the time. Tactical fouls are fine by me, I mean you get a yellow for the more blatant ones and that's quite fair.
100% agree.
But it is applied that way because otherwise games would never last 90 minutes. Yesterday Smalling, Kompany, Sterling and at least Young were good for a 3 or 4 yellows, for cynical fouls that went from grabbing the opponents and tripping them. Referees are just trying to not kill games, unfortunately they often show a lack of consistency but the idea is logical and correct.
There's a spectrum between a free-kick, a yellow card and a red card depending on the size of the opportunity denied by the tactical foul. The better referees who know the game will anticipate what would have opened up had the foul not taken place. I'd like to see referees grow a bigger set of balls where there is a goalscoring opportunity which might not perceived as that because it's not a last-man foul (eg a 3v2 counter attack).
This would definitely help. Referees either need more autonomy to be allowed to make decisions or they just need to stop trying to orchestrate the game and be consistent with the rules using common sense.
Far too often they don't want to ruin a big game so they allow some ridiculous fouls for fear of sending someone off and then getting criticised afterwards.
I think it's fair when there's some consistency in the refereeing. Yesterday they got away with 2 or 3 yellows minimum which would've resulted in at least a red by the end of the game.
Echo that City are the best at them. Not just in when they do them, but they make them look like clumsy coming together rather than a cynical hack. Pogba's was very much the latter, he emphatically chopped Otamendi down and it was a nailed on yellow even if it was in the 1st minute of the game. Danilo and Sane got away with loads because they make them look like nothing at all. A little tug, or an 'accidental' crossing of paths.
Pep has been quite clever in crying for protection for his players, when they nearly always end up committing more fouls than the opposition every game. Yesterday I believe they won the foul count 17 to 9. That's a lot of fouls, especially for a side credited for playing free flowing entertaining football.
Time wasting and inury feigning is a much bigger issue and much more of a blatant method of tolerated cheating than these tactical fouls, as the fouls are punished accordingly most of the time. Time wasting and injury feigning never is.
Pep has been quite clever in crying for protection for his players, when they nearly always end up committing more fouls than the opposition every game. Yesterday I believe they won the foul count 17 to 9. That's a lot of fouls, especially for a side credited for playing free flowing entertaining football.
Time wasting and inury feigning is a much bigger issue and much more of a blatant method of tolerated cheating than these tactical fouls, as the fouls are punished accordingly most of the time. Time wasting and injury feigning never is.
Referees are there to apply the rules, not dictate how the games go. Mark Clattenburg was rightly slated for seeing himself as someone to dictate the story of a game instead of just refereeing it, when he admitted to not giving Spurs players the cards they would have been given by the book because he didn't want them to blame him when they cocked up their league challenge. If you think he was right then you are of course free to think that, but I think it's not even worthy a debate.
Doesn't change that your comment to my first point was way off base, you are arguing for a different thing than I am commenting on.
Also it's not up to the referee to teach the players the rules, it's the coaches and managers.
While I will not take it s far as the OP I disagree with this. "Dark arts" are fouls and illegal play and they should always be punished. And fouling the opposition is never good defensive play.
I suspect it will lead to even more cautious play. Conceding the ball high will become a higher risk situation, encouraging more balance to the teams. Which sounds boring.
So Pogba letting Otamendi run past him yesterday with the ball would have been better defensive play than bringing him down?? At times committing a foul and giving away a free kick is preferable to letting the opposition advance further, ergo it is good defensive play.
I'm not really off base since I only disagreed with the idea that they didn't saw these fouls as cynical. That's not the problem, the problem is that, if you give a caution for all cautionable offenses you don't end a game and by the way what I'm saying(sin bins) is apparently within the new rules, since the new laws of the game include sin bins.
So, first I'm sorry if I bothered you and secondly you are right about what referees should do, I just disagreed with why they didn't.
No worries, your point somewhat came across to me, I just wondered how you saw it as relevant to what I was writing.
I think our difference in opinion here stems from me thinking players will & should adapt to what they are allowed to do and not in terms of leniency by the ref while you think the ref should adapt to the game at hand(?).
I think your way is easier, as mine definitely will ruin a few games in order to hopefully change players ways.
Say we follow me way & accept yellow as fair, and it's done consistently i hope players end up thinking they can "get away" with a professional foul once a game instead of making it a tactic as I see some teams currently use it.
Either way thanks for your last post, it clarified how you saw it as relative to my post.