'Tactical' fouls

[matherto]

So Pogba letting Otamendi run past him yesterday with the ball would have been better defensive play than bringing him down?? At times committing a foul and giving away a free kick is preferable to letting the opposition advance further, ergo it is good defensive play.

He'd already gone past him. He hacked him down from behind.

And it depends what you want. Yeah it's better as a supporter and for the team for the player to take the yellow card and stop the opposition from attacking and potentially scoring but do you really want your team to employ shithouse tactics to win? Sadly you need to employ these tactics because people are shithouses but still.

SAF didn't want us to, I don't either.

 

[SirAF]

He'd already gone past him. He hacked him down from behind.

And it depends what you want. Yeah it's better as a supporter and for the team for the player to take the yellow card and stop the opposition from attacking and potentially scoring but do you really want your team to employ shithouse tactics to win? Sadly you need to employ these tactics because people are shithouses but still.

SAF didn't want us to, I don't either.

Yes!

I don’t necessarily buy the anecdote from Solskjaer either, remember United kicked the shit (tactical fouls) out of «The Invincibles» in the 2-0 win at OT. I doubt the United players did that without instructions.

 

[King7Eric]

He'd already gone past him. He hacked him down from behind.

And it depends what you want. Yeah it's better as a supporter and for the team for the player to take the yellow card and stop the opposition from attacking and potentially scoring but do you really want your team to employ shithouse tactics to win? Sadly you need to employ these tactics because people are shithouses but still.

SAF didn't want us to, I don't either.

If you are referring to the Solksjaer incident against Newcastle well then that was 20 years ago. Times change. Maybe the art of tactical fouling wasn't so prevelant back then as it is now. Also if I was the manager yesterday I would have been furious if Otamendi had been allowed to progress with the ball without someone tackling him and it that tackle constituted a foul then so be it.

I get that you want to see the game in it's pure sense without what you are implying is cheating and that's fair enough. But my view is that yours is a very idealistic vision and it would make the game heavily stacked in favour of superior talented attacking players. It will take the scrappiness out of the game and in my view it is an essential part of football.

 

[Random Task]

@matherto

Assuming this rule was implemented. How does a referee determine, without a shadow of doubt, the difference between a counter attack and an ordinary attack from his perspective on the pitch.

 

[Member 90887]

If you are referring to the Solksjaer incident against Newcastle well then that was 20 years ago. Times change. Maybe the art of tactical fouling wasn't so prevelant back then as it is now. Also if I was the manager yesterday I would have been furious if Otamendi had been allowed to progress with the ball without someone tackling him and it that tackle constituted a foul then so be it.

I get that you want to see the game in it's pure sense without what you are implying is cheating and that's fair enough. But my view is that yours is a very idealistic vision and it would make the game heavily stacked in favour of superior talented attacking players. It will take the scrappiness out of the game and in my view it is an essential part of football.

Exactly.

Not only that, wasting time is shithouse tactics, players get yellows, should they get red-cards?

Should players that simulate an injury and stay down get red cards?

And how do you know if it was deliberate or if there was a genuine attempt to win the ball.

We have enough problems with the handball rule in the penalty area, we should facilitate the job of referees, not make it more difficult.

 

[Nick7]

Jesus Christ you'd swear that was the first time we ever took a player down who was trying to counter attack.

 

[Jetrooooo]

I'm obviously fine with it, the same goes for deliberate handballs. They shouldnt be an automatic red, but Pogba's charge was imo a red card. Does anybody has the footage again. I can't find it anymore.

 

[Swift Football]

Not all tactical fouls are from behind. Pogba was already behind Otamendi, but the actual tackle was from side rather than from behind. Its not dangerous and hence a yellow card.

The inherent problems with many referring decisions in football is nobody can judge the real intention behind a foul. for e.g., yesterday's POgba foul can be seen as a late tackle rather than a tactical foul. There is no way to separate those two.

 

[thejtrain]

I absolutely hated it every time I saw this happen in a game I watched as a neural and wanted the player sent off, but I was not overly concerned when Pogba did it yesterday. So I guess I am a hypocrite like most fans are. As for whether it should be a red, it absolutely shouldn't be... until someone does it to us again.

 

[whatwha]

Professional/tactical fouls really impair the game IMHO. A very cynical way of ruining an attack, breaking the flow of the game.

Start sending people off for them IMO.

 

[Cheesy]

It's not as if they go free of punishment; in normal circumstances they receive a yellow card, and when they're actively denying a scoring opportunity it's a red.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

It's not as if they go free of punishment; in normal circumstances they receive a yellow card, and when they're actively denying a scoring opportunity it's a red.

Yeah if refs are consistent in punishing it like that it should be fine.

 

[Nick7]

I'm obviously fine with it, the same goes for deliberate handballs. They shouldnt be an automatic red, but Pogba's charge was imo a red card. Does anybody has the footage again. I can't find it anymore.

What? It wasn't even close to a red card tackle he just slid and tripped Otamendi from behind.

 

[andyjgt1]

Scholes did them all the time, no surprise given he was probably in the 5 worst athletes in the league.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You're quite happy to be hacked down and kicked from behind as you're running then?

Yes. Because during the rest of the 90 minutes I definitely won't get kicked around at all and that's the only scenario in which it happens. Fact is, footballers make fouls throughout a game where the sole intention is to stop/unsettle/break the move. Half the time skillful players like Messi or Neymar get kicked it's to stop their run rather than win the ball. But when it's the situation Pogba did it in people bring out the moral code of conduct for some reason. Not to mention the fact that it's usually hard to tell what is cynical and what isn't.

 

[beergod]

It's been a huge bug-bear of mine for a while that a player can get a yellow card for something as trivial as celebrating a goal but tripping a player who is about to launch a dangerous counter or is in a threatening attacking position is also only worth a yellow!

I don't advocate red cards because we would end up with 5-a-side but I would like to see ten-minute sin-bins trialed for tackle's like Pogba's yesterday

They need to start treating cynical fouling similar to how rugby is cracking down on deliberate knock-ons. If it's deemed an honest attempt, no extraordinary punishment. If deemed cynical, off to the bin you go.

 

[Jack - City Fan]

It used to irritate me a great deal when Barca did it. I'd rather it was totally stamped out to be honest. If not in a year or two everyone will be doing it and it'll be bad for the game. Not only does it slow the momentum down but it will inevitably lead to the odd injury. Most are usually little nippy ones but even those can cause injuries and at the other end of course you have Pogba going full length to take out Otamendi.

(It's bad for the game now, but as we're the main proponents of it taking the best advantage I'm not tooooo vocal)

 

[Globule]

If they ever introduce sin bins, this is the exact type of incident that it could be used for. But until then a yellow card is fine. If a player crosses a line and goes in recklessly, then the red can be shown.

I kind of agree with the OP in that it's frustrating when it happens to us. How many potentially great counter attacking goals have been stopped like this? But a red card would be too much.

 

[meamth]

Just like video games, card games, board games or any other games there are specific rules you can use it to win.

Football is a game, and it is up to the player to use it however they can. Barcelona was all conquering team back then but you can't forget how cheeky they were abusing the rules of body contact to win games.

I don't mind it all, because this will add more suspense and emotion to the game we all love.

If we were played like that, there's only one word to use "Well Played".

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

It’s part of the game, it’s been here for years and will continue to be. I don’t see why people get so wound up by them, you take one for the team and take your punishment for it.

 

[Mike Smalling]

This is such a non-issue. It is within the rules of the game, so why would you not do it, if it increases your chance of winning? This type of purism makes no sense to me. It is not like players are trying to deceive the referee as when diving.

Also, people saying that Pogba 'hacked down' Otamendi, or similar, need to get a grip. He tripped him. Otamendi rolling around a few times and then immediately getting up was laughable.

 

[Momochiru]

I hate them, especially when city's players do them and don't get yellow cards.

 

[DOTA]

Long bugbear of mine. Any cynical foul should be a red card. It should be as hard as possible to gain an advantage through foul play.

No problem with players who do it. It's entirely up to the referees and those who direct them to sort it out. Until then it's obviously the correct thing to do at times to deliberately foul.

 

[kentafuji]

Dont see people's issue with it really.

Its done to break the momentum in the game. I still remember the one OGS did, when he chased the player back who would have been 1 on 1 with Schmeichel. It had to be done in that instance. HE got a red for it, and rightly so, but the other option was likely conceeding a goal.

Sometimes you just have to do it, to prevent the other team from getting a quick counter attack on. Sure, they should get booked, but if you manage to break the flow of play up, then its a worthwhile booking to take.

 

[Smores]

I only really hate it when it's done as a team. Certain teams seem to take turns in who will hack the opponent down to avoid cards, in reality that means each one gets a few tactical fouls before they're booked.

Didn't they bring in a rule to cover the above with retrospective action a season or two ago?

 

[Rafaeldagold]

I actually loved what pogba did, it showed that even more than being a flashy player or centre of attention his main focus was on the team and not letting city win.
It wasn’t a dangerous tackle so no issue with it.

Do I hate it when teams do it against us? Yes, and a yellow is the right result.

 

[TheReligion]

They aren't acceptable, hence why yellow cards are given for them.

Yeah this thread is crazy.

It's against the rules and is punished. What the OP is saying is the punishment isn't enough but if you gave red cards for every minor trip just because someone appeared to be on the break (the Pogba one was near Citys own 18 yard box!) then teams would have no players left come full time.

How would a ref decide 'oh that looked a great counter - red card' or 'nah they weren't going to counter, I'll just give a yellow'. It's not practicable in the slightest.

@matherto

 

[TheReligion]

No it shouldn't.

It's strange to pick the Pogba one out given he was just outside City's own penalty area.

Lingard got smashed by three City players whilst on the counter in the same cynical fashion (Fernandinho got booked but you could have actually argued a straight red as was reckless) and that was at the half way line but the OP doesn't mention it.

 

[Rado_N]

It's strange to pick the Pogba one out given he was just outside City's own penalty area.

Lingard got smashed by three City players whilst on the counter in the same cynical fashion (Fernandinho got booked but you could have actually argued a straight red as was reckless) and that was at the half way line but the OP doesn't mention it.

It's almost like he just wanted to be negative...

 

[KirkDuyt]

It's like time wasting. Absolutely disgusting, unless it's your team doing in.

 

[ivaldo]

I kind of get where @matherto is coming from. If a player is more than happy with the trade off of a yellow for committing a deliberate foul to prevent a potentially dangerous counter, then the punishment isnt severe enough. Red cards aren't the answer, frankly I don't know what is, but when a team employs tactics successfully outside the rules of the game, the rules probably need changing.

City's defensive set up appears heavily based on breaking the rules. That can't be right, can it?

 

[Vialli_92]

It's a guaranteed yellow so I don't see the problem as long as it's not dangerous play

 

[Maccataq]

It's a great hypocrisy of football...we all hate it when opposition players do it to us and we appreciate it when our players do it. For me, it's part and parcel of the game and when Pogba did it the other day, I was pleased he did it because a) it was the right thing to do to help us see out the game b) it was good to see Pogba showing his desire to win and c) City do things like this all the time and get away with it. So long as the foul is just a foul then it's a yellow card. If it is akin to the Dele Alli foul on Sanchez(?) when we played Spurs recently and just kicked him then it's not acceptable - that should have been a red.

In any case, remember when Solskjaer hacked down the Newcastle player when clean through and we were chasing a winner? If they had scored we would have lost and further damaged our title bid. Ole knew what he had to do and did it and took the red card, the free-kick and saved us a point. It was magnificent.

 

[Shimo]

Tactical fouls are part of the game and yellow cards are sufficient. However, my issue is the interpretation of when they deserve a yellow - when they are seen as completely cynical or stopping a counter-attack. On Saturday I was livid early in the game because it's quite clear that City are trained to foul cynically but, they do it close to opposition box that it can't be deemed as a counter-attack opportunity and they do it in such a way that it seems eh, nothing - but, those are the most cynical because they know exactly what they are doing. Refs let it go especially since it's often done by players that are seen as dirty or the ones that get fouled for being more skillful. Players like Sane and David Silva.

 

[matherto]

It's strange to pick the Pogba one out given he was just outside City's own penalty area.

Lingard got smashed by three City players whilst on the counter in the same cynical fashion (Fernandinho got booked but you could have actually argued a straight red as was reckless) and that was at the half way line but the OP doesn't mention it.

I fully acknowledged the Lingard tackle in the Pogba thread so forgive me for not carrying it over.

That 'tackle' was an overreaction from the Young tackle so everyone lost their heads from that point on.

Pogba's tackle just stuck with me because I knew he'd gone charging after them already and then when they got the ball past him and he was chasing back he just kicked the guy and it pissed me off seeing it.

City's players are no angels, they're shithouses and I don't like seeing them doing it any more than I like our players doing it.

 

[Raees]

Agree with OP it needs to be refereed more strictly as if rewards those who cheat when caught out of position but it should never be a red card offence. Sin bin or more strict issuing of yellow cards should suffice.

 

[goin4glory]

If you'd prefer they be a red card offence then fine but don't say they're "acceptable" when it's a foul and yellow card, had to laugh at assault jesus get a grip.

 

[Robertd0803]

I was expecting this thread to be about Herrera for some reason.

 

[RedFish]

I accept them now like I did back then with Solskjaer v Newcastle.

 

[Bubz27]

Ref so quick to give advantage to City and then award a penalty. Not so quick to let Lamela run at the back 4 when clipped but was carrying on just then.