Tactics on Saturday | Most interesting tactical battle in years? | Great past Utd tactical victories

SiRed

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Could LVG throw a complete curve ball and switch tactivs for this game?
Left flank of Blind, Mata and Herrera
Right flank of Valencia, Felliani and Young?

Hazard will be dealt with much better this way and will force them to change tactics from the off. Really intruiging stuff
 

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Park Ji Sung nullifying Andrea Pirlo at the San Siro was, in my opinion, one of the great tactical moves on a player that was dictating opposition teams left, right and centre. Pirlo was so fed up by the end of it he claimed it was anti-football.

Get a legend at the top of his game ruffled and win the match - That was tactical masterclass.
This is the same argument about Mourinho. How is that a tactical master class when man marking the best player of the opponents is something we used to do when we were kids? It is as basic game management as you will ever get, I am not being insulting to Fergie at all but it is an incredibly low definition of tactics if that's what they amount to. By that definition, what Sacchi was doing at Milan can't be called the same thing can it? Park marking Pirlo to me is a mental achievement in how Fergie was capable of convincing an attacking player to sacrifice himself for the good of the team which is another type of genius but it certainly is not tactical genius.
 

fishfingers15

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This is the same argument about Mourinho. How is that a tactical master class when man marking the best player of the opponents is something we used to do when we were kids? It is as basic game management as you will ever get, I am not being insulting to Fergie at all but it is an incredibly low definition of tactics if that's what they amount to. By that definition, what Sacchi was doing at Milan can't be called the same thing can it? Park marking Pirlo to me is a mental achievement in how Fergie was capable of convincing an attacking player to sacrifice himself for the good of the team which is another type of genius but it certainly is not tactical genius.
Why did you throw Wenger in that 'innovative manager' list? Arsenal are predictable and have been predictable for a while now.
 

fishfingers15

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There was no need to put Pulis in that point then. There is a reason Pulis doesn't get called mastermind and Mourinho does.

He is defensive minded, yes. I was making the point that only attacking or 'good to watch' football doesn't make someone tactical genius or innovative against the point you made that his tactical genius is overrated. Tactical genius doesn't limit till setting up formation not tried before or usually. Playing right type of players in right type of role for a given match is also part of tactics and that's where he does well. Afterwards, ensuring every player knows his role well and does it perfectly is part of it too. I don't think that manager has to start playing false 9s and sweepers or 3 at back to be tactical genius. Football match tactics has much more to it.

To me, a manager is tactically very good if his team is setup perfectly for a given match. Based on situation, based on opposition team, its quality etc etc. This is where Mourinho never fails. Obviously this doesn't mean he will win every match but very rarely he gets outwitted tactically and that is testament to his ability. It doesn't matter if his team's playing style doesn't carry some fancy name.
You don't seriously debate about Mourinho/Messi/Ronaldo with @amolbhatia100. He's like that Lego character shouting 'Space ship'.
 

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Why did you throw Wenger in that 'innovative manager' list? Arsenal are predictable and have been predictable for a while now.
Being innovative doesn't on its own mean you're actually good. In the way I am using the term, I mean that the manager has his teams attack in a clearly rehearsed and coached style. The teams also defend through well synchronized moves all over the pitch. Of course you might do all that and still not have enough quality in your team or your players are not very good at executing it. Maybe your team's game management in terms of when to slow the game down and when to speed up tempo is not very good through a lack of leadership or maybe you aim to do all these things and you're not very good at it. Wenger is certainly a manager who builds a team with a clear vision and philosophy but he is certainly lacking in one of the aforementioned areas which is why IMO he often comes up short. For a long time now, he either had to accept those limitations and drop his ego for more pragmatism or do what he was doing to a much better level extent. He did neither and hence the repeated failures.
 

Tincanalley

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It is obvious Mourhino has a soft spot for United; he dreamt of being on the touchline here, like RVP the romance of the club appeals to the little boy in him, the grandeur would fit his ego. Tactically I think the best thing Chelsea could do on Saturday is stick to their own system and not try to counter what LVG does. If that doesn't happen and Mou tries a kind of anti-game plan, he might come unstuck. Neither Carrick or Fellaini might even play. Chelsea are seven or eight points ahead, and he will have decided - at least subconsciously - where he gets the points and maybe even at which match they get crowned champions! It's a spiritually dangerous moment for Chelsea, the last beat before crossing the line. After Saturday they play Arsenal (a), Leicester (a), Crystal Palace (h), Liverpool (h), West Brom (a) and Sunderland (h). Three wins, and two draws is what they need, he knows. Jose can afford to lose against United, but his ego will be saying 'win with style, and demonstrate tactical superiority'. His pragmatic self might be saying 'get one of my draws here'. I have a hunch we might see a surprisingly open game with lots of goals and drama. Courage and bravery will get its reward; blind luck will play a part, too.
 

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This is the same argument about Mourinho. How is that a tactical master class when man marking the best player of the opponents is something we used to do when we were kids? It is as basic game management as you will ever get, I am not being insulting to Fergie at all but it is an incredibly low definition of tactics if that's what they amount to. By that definition, what Sacchi was doing at Milan can't be called the same thing can it? Park marking Pirlo to me is a mental achievement in how Fergie was capable of convincing an attacking player to sacrifice himself for the good of the team which is another type of genius but it certainly is not tactical genius.
Well what would you describe as tactical genius then?
 

Water Melon

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It is obvious Mourhino has a soft spot for United; he dreamt of being on the touchline here, like RVP the romance of the club appeals to the little boy in him, the grandeur would fit his ego. Tactically I think the best thing Chelsea could do on Saturday is stick to their own system and not try to counter what LVG does. If that doesn't happen and Mou tries a kind of anti-game plan, he might come unstuck. Neither Carrick or Fellaini might even play. Chelsea are seven or eight points ahead, and he will have decided - at least subconsciously - where he gets the points and maybe even at which match they get crowned champions! It's a spiritually dangerous moment for Chelsea, the last beat before crossing the line. After Saturday they play Arsenal (a), Leicester (a), Crystal Palace (h), Liverpool (h), West Brom (a) and Sunderland (h). Three wins, and two draws is what they need, he knows. Jose can afford to lose against United, but his ego will be saying 'win with style, and demonstrate tactical superiority'. His pragmatic self might be saying 'get one of my draws here'. I have a hunch we might see a surprisingly open game with lots of goals and drama. Courage and bravery will get its reward; blind luck will play a part, too.
All scenarios in one post. Share the same thoughts though :D
 

Tincanalley

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Apart from tactics, I think another factor could be tiredness. Chelsea have played a lot of matches with a small group of players. United look very fresh at this point in the season, the tika taka can be very demanding to press for 90 mins.
 

amolbhatia50k

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You don't seriously debate about Mourinho/Messi/Ronaldo with @amolbhatia100. He's like that Lego character shouting 'Space ship'.
:lol: yes, add Mourinho to it as well. Now I hate Mourinho too. You can't criticise anyone here without supposedly having an agenda, apparently. At least that's the case with the kiddish posters.

Funnily enough, yours is the most childish post in this thread. Bravo!
 

fishfingers15

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Being innovative doesn't on its own mean you're actually good. In the way I am using the term, I mean that the manager has his teams attack in a clearly rehearsed and coached style. The teams also defend through well synchronized moves all over the pitch. Of course you might do all that and still not have enough quality in your team or your players are not very good at executing it. Maybe your team's game management in terms of when to slow the game down and when to speed up tempo is not very good through a lack of leadership or maybe you aim to do all these things and you're not very good at it. Wenger is certainly a manager who builds a team with a clear vision and philosophy but he is certainly lacking in one of the aforementioned areas which is why IMO he often comes up short. For a long time now, he either had to accept those limitations and drop his ego for more pragmatism or do what he was doing to a much better level extent. He did neither and hence the repeated failures.
I don't know, I think Mourinho is a better manager 'tactical', 'motivational' or 'otherwise'. He's hardly Tony Pulis Amol lol
 

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Well what would you describe as tactical genius then?
Building a team that functions in a synchronized manner and a system that is designed to optimize the individual's performances as well as the collective. The way Guardiola's Barcelona moved around the pitch so that at any given time, they would outnumber the opponent without even having to run for that much and the way every time they had the ball, they had twice as many passing options as any other team. That precise and intelligent movement is a tactical master stroke. Another tactical master stroke is the way Sacchi renovated the way defending worked in a time where everyone in Italy thought he was an idiot, the way his teams pressed and made the pitch so compact was a tactical master class at the time. Van Gaal's Ajax and later on the blue print of what he started at Bayern is a tactical master class in how both those teams functioned with their movement and the way they created and closed down space.

Man marking the opponent's best player is a plan that requires minimum tactical genius and my reasons for thinking that is that if you can see it on Sunday's league game, it ain't really that genius. That doesn't mean at all that tactical managers are superior, I still think Fergie is the best manager to have ever existed but that's because of the accumulation of qualities he had and not because he was a visionary in every single aspect of football management. I also think Mourinho is one of the best managers in history but again, it's because of the sum of his qualities and not because of his tactics which to me are not even on the same league as the aforementioned managers in terms of creativity and innovation.
 

bishblaize

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Building a team that functions in a synchronized manner and a system that is designed to optimize the individual's performances as well as the collective. The way Guardiola's Barcelona moved around the pitch so that at any given time, they would outnumber the opponent without even having to run for that much and the way every time they had the ball, they had twice as many passing options as any other team. That precise and intelligent movement is a tactical master stroke. Another tactical master stroke is the way Sacchi renovated the way defending worked in a time where everyone in Italy thought he was an idiot, the way his teams pressed and made the pitch so compact was a tactical master class at the time. Van Gaal's Ajax and later on the blue print of what he started at Bayern is a tactical master class in how both those teams functioned with their movement and the way they created and closed down space.

Man marking the opponent's best player is a plan that requires minimum tactical genius and my reasons for thinking that is that if you can see it on Sunday's league game, it ain't really that genius. That doesn't mean at all that tactical managers are superior, I still think Fergie is the best manager to have ever existed but that's because of the accumulation of qualities he had and not because he was a visionary in every single aspect of football management. I also think Mourinho is one of the best managers in history but again, it's because of the sum of his qualities and not because of his tactics which to me are not even on the same league as the aforementioned managers in terms of creativity and innovation.
That isn't actually a sideways comparison. You're comparing the tactics of the building of a squad vs in-game tactics. In any other field what Pep and Saachi did wouldn't be called tactics it'd be called strategy, only in football we use the same word for both.
 

RDCR07

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I'm pretty sure he'll play Oscar at number 10 and get him to man mark Carrick. Oscar's really good at that kind of thing and we saw how difficult it makes it on Sunday in the first 15 minutes when Milner did a decent job.
Everyone say this but I still think we will be fine. Our system of play is such. If Carrick cant be the playmaker someone else like Herrera will have more freedom to do so. He certainly has the quality. Our movement of the ball is very good that manmarking one of them isnt necessarily going to stop us.
 

Snow

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I don't think it will be that interesting. United will play the same as way as against City. Mourinho will sit back, not concede and hope that Hazard or some other player will win the game for him as usual. He doesn't need to win the game. He needs what, 1 points? Fine getting 1 point in this game and 10 from the rest.
 

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That isn't actually a sideways comparison. You're comparing the tactics of the building of a squad vs in-game tactics. In any other field what Pep and Saachi did wouldn't be called tactics it'd be called strategy, only in football we use the same word for both.
I actually do agree with you there. As is the case in a lot of discussions, it comes down to linguistics. If in other fields what Sacchi was doing is called strategy, I would also say that there isn't a thing such as tactics in some of those other fields. At the end of the day, it is pointless to compare things like that which is why I think it's absurd to claim that Mourinho beat x manager tactically when the said manager is doing something different in the way he approaches the game. So when Brendan Rogers for example did not play the patient game last year vs Chelsea, we can't say that he was outwitted. The fact that any half educated football fan could predict what happened in that game alone means that Rogers was not "out-thought". So we may criticize the approach, philosophy, strategy, man management, quality of players, whatever really but not that the tactics were wrong.
 

elisha27

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Two legs v Barcelona in 2007/08. First leg was the decision to play Ronaldo alone up front... stood out as he nearly won us the game. It didn't work quite as well v Pep's Barca.
Absolutely nothing stood out about the away leg to Barcelona in 2007/08. Ronaldo was world player of the year of that season, and the hallmark of his match was him running down blind alleys chasing endless long balls before flapping his arms in frustration and dismay. We had one of our strongest ever sides and were facing an ailing Barcelona side. Instead of trying to play, Ferguson was a coward and parked the bus from the beginning until the end. It was embarrassing.

Everyone on here was berating that performance after the game. One mock formation graphic had two banks of four on the edge of our box, Ronaldo on his own 50 yards away, and Tevez with a question mark attached to his position as it wasn't even clear if he'd played.
 

Raees

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Absolutely nothing stood out about the away leg to Barcelona in 2007/08. Ronaldo was world player of the year of that season, and the hallmark of his match was him running down blind alleys chasing endless long balls before flapping his arms in frustration and dismay. We had one of our strongest ever sides and were facing an ailing Barcelona side. Instead of trying to play, Ferguson was a coward and parked the bus from the beginning until the end. It was embarrassing.

Everyone on here was berating that performance after the game. One mock formation graphic had two banks of four on the edge of our box, Ronaldo on his own 50 yards away, and Tevez with a question mark attached to his position as it wasn't even clear if he'd played.
I agree with alot of what you said but it was interesting because he hadn't used Ronaldo like that before and before Ronaldo got the penalty.. it looked like it was going to work.

The team waa generally very compact and Gary Neville says in his book that the tactical preparation for that game was meticulous and un United like.

I didn't like the tactics and we got away with it but it set the template for the way we played the next few years as we got progressively more negative.
 

JUPITER

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Building a team that functions in a synchronized manner and a system that is designed to optimize the individual's performances as well as the collective. The way Guardiola's Barcelona moved around the pitch so that at any given time, they would outnumber the opponent without even having to run for that much and the way every time they had the ball, they had twice as many passing options as any other team. That precise and intelligent movement is a tactical master stroke. Another tactical master stroke is the way Sacchi renovated the way defending worked in a time where everyone in Italy thought he was an idiot, the way his teams pressed and made the pitch so compact was a tactical master class at the time. Van Gaal's Ajax and later on the blue print of what he started at Bayern is a tactical master class in how both those teams functioned with their movement and the way they created and closed down space.

Man marking the opponent's best player is a plan that requires minimum tactical genius and my reasons for thinking that is that if you can see it on Sunday's league game, it ain't really that genius. That doesn't mean at all that tactical managers are superior, I still think Fergie is the best manager to have ever existed but that's because of the accumulation of qualities he had and not because he was a visionary in every single aspect of football management. I also think Mourinho is one of the best managers in history but again, it's because of the sum of his qualities and not because of his tactics which to me are not even on the same league as the aforementioned managers in terms of creativity and innovation.
I agree completely. Fantastic post.

I'm really, really (REALLY!!!) enjoying seeing us enforce our own proactive game-plan upon games, rather than trying to reactively negate the other team's strengths.

Obviously in big games there's always a bit of both, but too much in the past - in the big games and especially in Europe - we were mainly trying to stop the game in midfield and rely on explosive individual genius out wide.

Now we will fecking play football, and it's you who's gonna need to be reactive. At least that's how it's increasingly appearing.

To be approaching the Chelsea game with all talk about "how will Mourinho stop United?" is literally music to my ears, honestly.
 

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I agree completely. Fantastic post.

I'm really, really (REALLY!!!) enjoying seeing us enforce our own proactive game-plan upon games, rather than trying to reactively negate the other team's strengths.

Obviously in big games there's always a bit of both, but too much in the past - in the big games and especially in Europe - we were mainly trying to stop the game in midfield and rely on explosive individual genius out wide.

Now we will fecking play football, and it's you who's gonna need to be reactive. At least that's how it's increasingly appearing.

To be approaching the Chelsea game with all talk about "how will Mourinho stop United?" is literally music to my ears, honestly.
I can't agree more. For me, it's more than just about entertainment but the way a big team should conduct itself. A big team with resources, status and brand like ourselves has a duty to go out and attempt to be authoritative, take charge and try to impose itself. To be fair, we always tried to do that under Sir Alex, the problem is we didn't succeed in Europe as you can't just have that approach and expect it to work, it demands a lot of work in terms of coaching, tactics, practice and so on and I always felt that we came up short in that tactical part which led Del Bosque to famously call playing the equivalent of tactical anarchy. To his credit, Fergie realized our limitations in that part and adopted a more pragmatic regime in those games most memorably that Barcelona game in 2008.

I don't think Van Gaal possesses most of the qualities that made Fergie such a consistently dominant force but I think he possesses the tactical nous to instill a style that makes top teams worry about us rather than the other way as you put it. Pellegrini and Wenger this year are good examples of managers that attempt to do that with not much success but there are other examples of the opposite. The most thing to remember is that we need to be patient, there is a very good chance we will pay the price for aiming this high by simply being shut down and countered on the break especially against teams like Chelsea. We will no doubt then hear the boring clichés about how we were "out-thought". But it is an inevitable price to pay if we want to have a go at this thing.
 

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This is the same argument about Mourinho. How is that a tactical master class when man marking the best player of the opponents is something we used to do when we were kids? It is as basic game management as you will ever get, I am not being insulting to Fergie at all but it is an incredibly low definition of tactics if that's what they amount to. By that definition, what Sacchi was doing at Milan can't be called the same thing can it? Park marking Pirlo to me is a mental achievement in how Fergie was capable of convincing an attacking player to sacrifice himself for the good of the team which is another type of genius but it certainly is not tactical genius.
Your right to a point, but it also should be noted that man-marking when we were kids was generally reserved for the star forward, not the guy who plays just in-front of the back four. In that respect, Fergie's decision to put Park on Pirlo was indeed a form of genius - it's not what Milan expected, nor Pirlo himself - who I imagine has been marked plenty of times since then, yet it was the Park incident that he wrote about in his book.

That was one of Fergie's great strengths, employing strategies that - whilst now seem basic on the front of things - weren't neccesarily the done thing 5-10 years ago.

Jonathan Wilson wrote an article saying something similar if I recall which is............. here http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/08/sir-alex-ferguson-tactics-evolution
 

Theonas

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Your right to a point, but it also should be noted that man-marking when we were kids was generally reserved for the star forward, not the guy who plays just in-front of the back four. In that respect, Fergie's decision to put Park on Pirlo was indeed a form of genius - it's not what Milan expected, nor Pirlo himself - who I imagine has been marked plenty of times since then, yet it was the Park incident that he wrote about in his book.

That was one of Fergie's great strengths, employing strategies that - whilst now seem basic on the front of things - weren't neccesarily the done thing 5-10 years ago.

Jonathan Wilson wrote an article saying something similar if I recall which is............. here http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/08/sir-alex-ferguson-tactics-evolution
That is true but I have to disagree with you that man marking the deep lying play maker was a new thing in 2010. It is definitely not what Milan or Pirlo expected but it wasn't because it's new, it was because they didn't expect such basic tactical choices from a great team like ourselves. It was as though they thought we would be too big to do something like that. In Pirlo's biography he expresses this clearly how the great man (Fergie) unleashed his dog on him and that he didn't expect to see that from such a famous manager. Of course I disagree with Pirlo and I think there was some bitterness there but I can also definitely see the school of thought some football purist might have in the sense that they want to control the game rather than stopping the other team or the main man in the other team. Different approaches at the end.

I don't think any manager will tell you that they look up to Fergie in a tactical sense. His teams played in a simple way, adopting simple strategies. When he felt we would be outrun in midfield or the other team had someone special, he would maybe put an extra midfielder or have someone mark said special player. He would maybe switch Rooney to the left when he felt Ronaldo is not offering enough protection and so on but we always played in a clear way that relied more on instinct and individual quality of our players rather than a grand tactical master plan like Barcelona or Bayern now. I have to stress that I don't mean this as an insult in the least, in fact, it was that approach that attracted many including myself to Manchester United. The sheer excitement that came from playing the game in such a care free way. My all time favorite team to this day is our 1999 team but I wouldn't call them a tactically advanced team in the least. If they were, I am sure they would have dominated Europe more but would be much less exciting.
 

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I think Mourinho willgo with his famed A380 tactics, 2 draws in their next 2 games all but wins the title anyway.
 

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One reason - possibly the main reason - I'm looking forward to Sunday's clash at Stamford Bridge is the head-to-head between LVG and Mourinho.

I think Jose will be relishing this one, much like he relished the game against Liverpool at Anfield last season. We're the leagues biggest story in terms of form and style at the moment, and he's going to give it everything to show that there's no system that beats him. So to that end, how will Chelsea combat us? There's been talk of Zouma coming into midfield, but I'm not sure he's good enough in that role to combat Fellaini... also, how defensive is Mourinho actually prepared to go at home?

On top of all that, how are we going to come at them? I can see all our playing shifting to the right-hand side this time, with LVG maybe second guessing Mourinho shutting down our left-side of the pitch. Also, do we make a plan for Hazard?

And as a general note, what are other times we had fascinating tactical match-ups. As a tactition, Fergie was underrated in my opinion, and certain games in Europe spring to mind... so what are the ones you remember most fondly?
The game is on Saturday, right? Anywho, it will be a tactical mind-bender this one...If we beat them at the Bridge, it would be the greatest victory of the season!

Will be a difficult game and the victors will only win by a narrow margin. I just hope we can nick it!
 

sunama

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Tactically, I think Chelsea will try and break up the play, just like they did against LFC last year.
If they attempt to "play football", I think we will win. If they break up the play or park the bus, then I think we will struggle to score and Chelsea will win.

As far as the game against Chelsea goes, I think a lot hinges on whether Carrick will be fit enough to play. Without him, I think we'll struggle to dominate the ball and the lack of possession will mean we need to play in a different way. If Carrick doesn't make it, then I think Chelsea will beat us by a goal. If he is fit enough to play, we'll get a draw, I think.
You make it sound like we are 1 man team. This is definitely not the case and I'm not sure how you have come to this conclusion.
And with regards to possession - we will dominate possession as we always do. We are possession based team. The same sort of thing was said about LFC and we dominated them as well.
We may be lacking in many areas, but the one area where we absolutely dominate, is possession. No team in the league is as good as keeping the ball as us - this includes Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal.
 

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You make it sound like we are 1 man team. This is definitely not the case and I'm not sure how you have come to this conclusion.
And with regards to possession - we will dominate possession as we always do. We are possession based team. The same sort of thing was said about LFC and we dominated them as well.
We may be lacking in many areas, but the one area where we absolutely dominate, is possession. No team in the league is as good as keeping the ball as us - this includes Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal.
Clearly, we aren't a one-man team. On the other hand, Carrick has been central to most of our good form this season, not just during our recent run. Especially where possession is concerned, Carrick is probably our most valuable asset. I think he's our best passer and also has the best variety of passing in his game.

Whilst we have dominated the ball against a lot of teams this season, playing away to Chelsea is the kind of challenge that we haven't faced yet. We could survive without Carrick against most teams, but I think we will need him if we are to get a positive result at Stamford Bridge.
 

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Your right to a point, but it also should be noted that man-marking when we were kids was generally reserved for the star forward, not the guy who plays just in-front of the back four. In that respect, Fergie's decision to put Park on Pirlo was indeed a form of genius - it's not what Milan expected, nor Pirlo himself - who I imagine has been marked plenty of times since then, yet it was the Park incident that he wrote about in his book.

That was one of Fergie's great strengths, employing strategies that - whilst now seem basic on the front of things - weren't neccesarily the done thing 5-10 years ago.

Jonathan Wilson wrote an article saying something similar if I recall which is............. here http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/08/sir-alex-ferguson-tactics-evolution
Alf Ramsey gave Charlton the job of marking Beckenbauer for the World Cup Final. Beckenbauer was also asked to mark Charlton in a more usual version of tactics at the time
 
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ivaldo

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The evolution of the makelele role was Jose's doing wasn't it? His 05 team was almost based around it.
 

MZX7

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Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
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Carrick has been a vital cog in the machine, but I think some are going overboard. I don't think he's as important to our domination of games as he was under SAF. Most of not all of our starting eleven are comfortable in possession.
Read this...
 

RooneyLegend

New Member
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
12,963
Tactically, I think Chelsea will try and break up the play, just like they did against LFC last year.
If they attempt to "play football", I think we will win. If they break up the play or park the bus, then I think we will struggle to score and Chelsea will win.



You make it sound like we are 1 man team. This is definitely not the case and I'm not sure how you have come to this conclusion.
And with regards to possession - we will dominate possession as we always do. We are possession based team. The same sort of thing was said about LFC and we dominated them as well.
We may be lacking in many areas, but the one area where we absolutely dominate, is possession. No team in the league is as good as keeping the ball as us - this includes Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal.
Arsenal is better than us at keeping the ball.