The “Ole In” Brigade

Giggsforever said:
What did you expect, really? We have had 3 managers that have made a combination of bad and short term signings. The squad was in a mess, it was incredible. Now we finally have a manager that is tearing it a part and trying to build something new by giving young players a chance and buying young and good players (and he could have had better support than Ed and the owners). It was always going to get worse before it start improving.

Why the hell would we hire a manager to rebuild the team and sack him before he gets a chance to build it? I understand expectations at the club, but he did get the job when the club was at a real low point. The nature of the modern game and the impatience with managers is unreal. That being said, I would expect Ole to make the signing needed for us the next two windows (this on included) to take a huge step forward next season, only then should we judge him and talk about changing OUR manager.
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How was the squad in a mess when they handed Ole his job by that honeymoon period that lasted 2-3 months ? He didn't get the job due to his amazing CV or history of rebuilding team. He got it thanks to having an initial 3 great months and these were under the squad he just inherited. Was the opinion during that period that the squad was a mess and we needed to sell half of it, or that they were good players being held back by the previous managers and needed few key additions ? How can the squad and results regress so much from his initial 3 months to the current level and still be labeled a rebuilding job ? We are regressing the more his reign goes on.

I'm not expecting a title challenge. I'm expecting decent level of football played and not losing to teams in the bottom half of the table. Is that impossible to achieve ?

Beside, why are we assuming this mysterious rebuild project is gonna be a sure success under Ole ? Why don't we put in our mind the possibility that we might give him 4 years and 500m to spend and still ends sucking hard and the next manager comes and decides the players he signed are mostly not good enough so time for yet another rebuild and all these previous years were total waste ? He had spent 130m on defense in his first summer and we're still leaking goals left, right and center and barely getting any clean sheets, with our 80m defender having an average season. Imagine if the next manager comes on and decides to play with high line and finds our main defender to be as slow as snail so benches him for good, that'll be 80m wasted in that "rebuilding project".

What's he doing that no other manager will be able to do in this mythical rebuilding job anyway ? Selling old players and playing 2 youngsters regularly (not many youngsters, no, only 2, Greenwood and Williams) ? That's about it ? Has he done anything else ? Has he implemented a good enough style for the future ? no, this counter attacking style isn't going to be our long term style. Has he put up a good base for any upcoming manager ? No, the next manager will find the squad in a hot mess that needs loads of money and not just that but needed to be spent absolutely spot on to make it any kind of close to top 3.
 
I don't know why people bring up injures as an excuse. Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't all mangers at Utd in recent years had such a fate?
 
thejtrain said:
Except we didn't. If anything, this is an emotional comment not based on what actually happened on the pitch.
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onetwo3oclock4oclockrock said:
I'm one of the few who is still on the Ole in side, but let's be honest, we nowhere near tore them apart. Stats: Shots: 23-11, Possession: 72-28, Corners 16-3.
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Most of those shots were pot shots from outside the area, don't tell me you weren't buzzing after that first half, which takes a decent performance. Ok, wrong choice of phrase but I mentioned one game, not an entire season of dross which is not true is it. The way that game panned out, we should been out of sight by half time, then we defended like a proper team in the second half, with de gea having one save of note to make. We're still the only team to take points off Liverpool, that wasn't a poor performance either.
 
Mockney said:
The idea that anything quasi “Ole - Out” related is more “emotionally” based than the idea of putting our blind faith in an ex-player with no qualified managerial experience, who would’ve never gotten close to the job otherwise and has won less games than Burnley this season, to rebuild us over several seasons with no money in a manner no major club has done in several decades is frankly through the looking glass- level bonkers...

We seem to be at the “flagrant projection” point of the cycle...but cool beans guys... carry on...
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Just seems like the normal thing on here where people go to the extremes of both sides of the argument to me.

Don't think you can sit here and say Ole has done a good job at this point, but don't think you can really sit here and say letting Woodward sack him and replace him with whatever the next flavour of the month is will be the answer either.

A lot of the arguments in this thread make very little sense when you start to break them down. They are just people convincing themselves everything is down to Ole, in the hope this means sacking him will be an easy fix to all our problems, most of which have been ongoing for the last 6-7 years.

Solutions like "if we get someone like Klopp and give them x amount of money"...I mean, ok, but we wont get someone like Klopp, and even if we did, and did give them the money, Woodward is the one in charge of getting in players, and he's very skilled in fecking it up, or signing completely different ones to who the manager wants.

I like Ole, but if the club had a plan, and decided to get in someone better suited to enacting it, well that's how it goes. Football is a ruthless game and Ole can't really argue he's done enough to convince the club to stick with him...but the club doesn't have a plan, or even a clue. It's quite important they get one before starting over again for the 5th time in 6 years. Not sack the manager who you've put in an impossible position and therefore immediately put the next one in the exact same position...which will have a severe impact both on who we can get as manager and how much chance they'll have of succeeding.

The bit I don't get how people miss is that this is exactly how we ended up with Ole in the first place...because we sacked Jose when everything was such a fecking mess that no one with any actual pedigree or who didn't love the club would have touched us.
 
noodlehair said:
Just seems like the normal thing on here where people go to the extremes of both sides of the argument to me.

Don't think you can sit here and say Ole has done a good job at this point, but don't think you can really sit here and say letting Woodward sack him and replace him with whatever the next flavour of the month is will be the answer either.

A lot of the arguments in this thread make very little sense when you start to break them down. They are just people convincing themselves everything is down to Ole, in the hope this means sacking him will be an easy fix to all our problems, most of which have been ongoing for the last 6-7 years.

Solutions like "if we get someone like Klopp and give them x amount of money"...I mean, ok, but we wont get someone like Klopp, and even if we did, and did give them the money, Woodward is the one in charge of getting in players, and he's very skilled in fecking it up, or signing completely different ones to who the manager wants.

I like Ole, but if the club had a plan, and decided to get in someone better suited to enacting it, well that's how it goes. Football is a ruthless game and Ole can't really argue he's done enough to convince the club to stick with him...but the club doesn't have a plan, or even a clue. It's quite important they get one before starting over again for the 5th time in 6 years. Not sack the manager who you've put in an impossible position and therefore immediately put the next one in the exact same position...which will have a severe impact both on who we can get as manager and how much chance they'll have of succeeding.

The bit I don't get how people miss is that this is exactly how we ended up with Ole in the first place...because we sacked Jose when everything was such a fecking mess that no one with any actual pedigree or who didn't love the club would have touched us.
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Interesting take. So what do you suggest should happen if Ed and the Glazers are not going anywhere
 
noodlehair said:
Solutions like "if we get someone like Klopp and give them x amount of money"...I mean, ok, but we wont get someone like Klopp, and even if we did, and did give them the money, Woodward is the one in charge of getting in players, and he's very skilled in fecking it up, or signing completely different ones to who the manager wants.
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You say that noods but the club pretty much ticked off a wishlist of managers favourites for 4 years for both LvG & Mourinho at a considerable cost to the club.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Interesting take. So what do you suggest should happen if Ed and the Glazers are not going anywhere
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Do what all clubs do, try to find a better manager. Most clubs have these bad periods and the suits rarely leave.
 
L1nk said:
Remind me again of what happened in the rematch a few weeks later when Pep adapted to what we did in the first match and Ole had no clue how to adjust the entire match. That's the definition of "tore apart"

We can agree that player recruitment has been poor, but a reminder that Ole said it was his choice to spend the budget on the players he did, and be rid of the players he wanted to be rid of with no replacements, the squad is on him. And a vastly better manager would be getting a better tune out of it.
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See, in my eyes, that was an exact replica of the game prior, as good as they were in that first half, we were equally that good in the first half of the previous game. Then like them in that game, we came out in the second half, Ole had identified the tactical flaw, and we got a goal back but ultimately it was too little too late.

Listen, I'm not saying its blown my mind this season, but there has been some real positives, granted some real negatives too, but not the whole season. I genuinely don't think there's anyone out there available, who could do any better with this current squad right now, (and I mean right now, with injuries to Rashford, Pogba and McTominay) and I think fundamentally Ole has his first choice team, which, if that was available for, let's say, 90%+ of the games so far, we'd be in the top 4 without doubt, but its been nothing close to that and the issue is only that first 11 are capable of playing that style.

Recruitment wise, If you break it down, Lukaku wanted out, Sanchez has been terrible, Smalling wanted more regular football, Valencia was done, Young wanted a new opportunity, Darmian was dead wood, so all good business or unavoidable. In terms of bringing players in, from the reports I read on the BBC, It was a case of, the money is there, but the if the first choice options weren't available, did we want quick fixes, to which he declined...theres every chance of ending up with another Sanchez scenario so its understandable, right? Also, I don't think in his wildest dreams he would've imagined Pogba being out for so long, Martial out for so long, now Rashford. So wan-bissaka and Maguire were first choice, no problems there. James, I think, was intended to be a squad player but injuries have forced his hand. Other targets were mooted, nothing came through...so I get you're point, but the names were there, the board just couldn't get it over the line...and this window has highlighted that even more so. You've got Liverpool with their only target, done and dusted before the window even opens, like us when David Gill was there, then you've got us with Woodward, haggling over the price of our main target AFTER we've agreed it with a week left of the window, and with someone who is easily worth what sporting are asking, but happy to spend 30 mil maybe more on a 16 year old from Birmingham who no doubt could be unbelievable in a few years, but not right now. So where's the logic there?
 
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LVG was boring as hell in the latter part and Jose completely lost the plot. But to say that they were as bad as Ole now is being utterly ridiculous. Both of them won trophies in their short time. In fact in their first season LVG got us into the CL spot and in his second year he lost the CL spot on goal difference. But he won the FA Cup that year. Jose won the EL in his first year. If Ole wins anything like that then he has equalled them but so far he has not done anything to be even close to either of them.
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
Not really much point in raking this up again, but Jose had just finished second, and then wanted a CB to help us kick on, he was refused one, and so at that point didn't fancy it with a squad he knew that couldn't compete, things got nasty, everyone blamed him, and Woodward got away unscathed again.

Now look at us, I hated Jose, but he was clearly right.
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I agree, but tell me how many of Jose's transfers + wages that were worth the money

Pogba?
Sanchez?
Baily?
Lindehof
Mhiki?
Zlatan - free agent
Fred?
Matic?
Dalot?
Lukkaku?

Don't you think this has an impact on our team that we've spent shitloads with getting little in return.
 
Foxbatt said:
LVG was boring as hell in the latter part and Jose completely lost the plot. But to say that they were as bad as Ole now is being utterly ridiculous. Both of them won trophies in their short time. In fact in their first season LVG got us into the CL spot and in his second year he lost the CL spot on goal difference. But he won the FA Cup that year. Jose won the EL in his first year. If Ole wins anything like that then he has equalled them but so far he has not done anything to be even close to either of them.
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Under LVG and Jose I stopped watching United because the football was so bad, if you think the football under Ole is worse, then that's your opinion, but I watch United under Ole, and to me the football is much better, but the squad is very poor, and without three of his major players, they are struggling to create much in the final third. We had chances against Burnley, but didn't take them. If you said that Matic, Mata, Jones and Lingard would still be in the the team at this stage of the season, then you wouldn't have been believed, yet there they were on Wednesday, just shows what a weak squad we have.
 
el3mel said:
Having Lukaku for one more season till we get a replacement next summer next summer is of course far better than having absolutely no one.

And anyway this is a contradictory point. You're blaming Woodward for not securing replacement for Lukaku after selling him then saying Lukaku wouldn't have made any difference anyway had he stayed. How is that ? Why did we need a replacement for Lukaku then if he's that useless and his presence doesn't make much difference ? Try to organize your points a little bit I suggest.

And Ole might be that naive. How do you know ? Have you set down with him and talked together about his opinions re the squad ? Maybe, yeah maybe he thought we'll be totally fine with Greenwood coming up from the academy to take Lukaku's spot. Did we target any top strikers in summer ? No we didn't. Only one was Mandzukic, a 34 years old who wouldn't have been anything more than a bench option, and the link didn't last 1 week and we didn't try to sign anyone else. Everything points to the fact Ole viewed Lukaku as a mere bench option and wasn't concerned about letting him go even if we didn't get a replacement, because at no point in summer did we show any urgency in any striker negotiation.

Just listen to the guy today saying Klopp got 4 years so he needs time. He's not believing he's under risk. He's totally delusional and believing that this is a job for multiple upcoming years and he's in no hurry to win at present, so saying he's wanting to put pressure on himself looks pointless to me. He doesn't look like he's under any pressure to lose his job whatever the current results. He believes he'll get 2 or 3 more years and it's a long life project.

At the end I have Ole's quotes to believe and he says he has a final say in every transfer and if he's lying then it's another story that's actually doesn't give him any sort of credit or excuse.
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We agreed that Lukaku would have been a bench option under Ole, he would hardly be the saviour of our season regardless of our differing opinions on how he came to leave. What we do agree on is that he should have been replaced at least for the sake of squad depth and rotation.

At least 90% of people would refuse to agree to losing their no. 1 striker without having been assured the club would replace him. I find that being the far more likely scenario with Ole last summer also, say what you like but he's no fool.

Like I say transfers are not simple, the buying club were offering a very decent amount of money for Lukaku and that option would not have been there a year later. Conte was desperate for him and the time was right to sell on the basis we would find a replacement.

The fact you rely on press gossip to try to prove your point regarding who we were linked to shows the naivety in your opinion.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
haha, anyone with any sense remaining knows Ole made it crystal clear to Lukaku that he wasn't wanted. Yet somehow it's used to defend Ole selling him without getting a replacement in, infuriating.
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In the interview on Sky this week, he says he went to Ole :

" I think I had to rediscover myself. Last year was difficult for me on the professional side, because stuff was not going how I wanted and I was not performing as well.

So I had to find it within myself what was lacking and came to the conclusion that it was time for me to change environment.

I made my decision around March, and I went to the manager's office and told him it was time for me to find something else.

I wasn't performing and I wasn't playing. I think it was better for both sides to go separate ways. I think I made the right decision. "

To me that sounds an awful lot like a player asking to leave, no? He wasn't performing so Ole wasn't playing him...
 
I wanted to post a link to Nick Cave’s song Lay me low, just could not execute it on my IPad. Sums up our situation in my op.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Interesting take. So what do you suggest should happen if Ed and the Glazers are not going anywhere
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I don't think the Glazers are going anywhere but I don't think Woodward being shifted or at least having to take on board that he doesn't know what he's doing is out of the question.

It wont happen if you allow him the easy option of just repeating what he's done the last three times over again though. He'll take it. He'll sack Ole, replace him with Pochettino, and in a year or 2 years time we'll be having this debate again. I'd put money on it.

I think Woodward obviously wants to do well but I think he thinks like a lot of people on here. Just looks for the easy reactionary solution all the time, with the added bonus being that this allows him to not look at or lay the blame with himself. We know he doesn't like accepting fault due to his silly excuse making press releases every time he fecks something up, but the heat is really on him this time and the chance is there to force the club into going about things differently, so at least whoever the manager is might have a chance of things being different.

We can argue all day about how much blame Ole should take, or what manager would or wouldn't do a good job here, but what's beyond doubt at this point that Woodward isn't doing a good job, and whoever the manager is has to contend with that until it changes. It's a pretty big thing to contend with as Woodward is literally their boss and among other things is in charge of which players they sign/keep/move on, how much those players are paid, etc. It's quite a big deal. We don't have the second highest wage bill on the planet because four managers in a row wanted all our players to be overpaid/under motivated.
 
RUCK4444 said:
We agreed that Lukaku would have been a bench option under Ole, he would hardly be the saviour of our season regardless of our differing opinions on how he came to leave. What we do agree on is that he should have been replaced at least for the sake of squad depth and rotation.

At least 90% of people would refuse to agree to losing their no. 1 striker without having been assured the club would replace him. I find that being the far more likely scenario with Ole last summer also, say what you like but he's no fool.

Like I say transfers are not simple, the buying club were offering a very decent amount of money for Lukaku and that option would not have been there a year later. Conte was desperate for him and the time was right to sell on the basis we would find a replacement.

The fact you rely on press gossip to try to prove your point regarding who we were linked to shows the naivety in your opinion.
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Sorry but you say any manager wouldn't have agreed on letting their number one striker leave without replacement after literally saying in the previous paragraph he would have been a bench option here under Ole? :lol: So he wasn't the number 1 striker for Ole then. Didn't I suggest for you to organize your points a little bit? You need to decide if he was our number 1 option in striker position or a bench option, because if he was a bench option then yes Ole wouldn't care that much about losing him and can just tell himself that Greenwood would take his spot on the bench instead. The 2 paragraphs are contradictory.

I'm relaying on press gossip, that's true....and what are you relaying for to point your opinion? Complete assumptions and theories with no evidence to support it.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
You say that noods but the club pretty much ticked off a wishlist of managers favourites for 4 years for both LvG & Mourinho at a considerable cost to the club.
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Well LVG made it pretty clear he was being given players he never asked for. After his first transfer window he immediately complained that the club had left the squad "too imbalanced". He moaned constantly about asking for creative players and not getting them. He would bring this up every single week.

Jose...well I think you have a point to an extent, but we signed him as a quick fix manager to bring short rather than long term improvement, and this is exactly what he did. Then we acted like it was some massive shock when this is what happened and started signing players he didn't want, not letting him manage his own squad, and also for some reason not sacking or replacing him for an entire half of a season after we pretty much deliberately made him hostile. How do you explain this? It's the club's money not Jose's, so you would expect them to have more of a clue than this when spending it, wouldn't you? It was never going to work for more than a couple of years.
 
Tel074 said:
It's the opinion of a season ticket holder I attend matches and I know the mood around the place .. The time under Moyes was bloody shocking he probably had 11 better players than Ole does now
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If it wasnt Ole they would say the same. Moyes was anyways hard to like, Ole has been a fan favorite since ever yet people hold his hand while drowning
 
noodlehair said:
I don't think the Glazers are going anywhere but I don't think Woodward being shifted or at least having to take on board that he doesn't know what he's doing is out of the question.

It wont happen if you allow him the easy option of just repeating what he's done the last three times over again though. He'll take it. He'll sack Ole, replace him with Pochettino, and in a year or 2 years time we'll be having this debate again. I'd put money on it.

I think Woodward obviously wants to do well but I think he thinks like a lot of people on here. Just looks for the easy reactionary solution all the time, with the added bonus being that this allows him to not look at or lay the blame with himself. We know he doesn't like accepting fault due to his silly excuse making press releases every time he fecks something up, but the heat is really on him this time and the chance is there to force the club into going about things differently, so at least whoever the manager is might have a chance of things being different.

We can argue all day about how much blame Ole should take, or what manager would or wouldn't do a good job here, but what's beyond doubt at this point that Woodward isn't doing a good job, and whoever the manager is has to contend with that until it changes. It's a pretty big thing to contend with as Woodward is literally their boss and among other things is in charge of which players they sign/keep/move on, how much those players are paid, etc. It's quite a big deal. We don't have the second highest wage bill on the planet because four managers in a row wanted all our players to be overpaid/under motivated.
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I get you but you didn't really answer the question or maybe your answer was too indirect or my question wasn't phrased well.

Everybody knows a DOF can fix this mess but what if we don't get one and we're stuck with Ed and the Glazers. So what do you think we should do regarding Ole if Ed and the Glazers stay? Stick with him? Sack him and bring in someone else?
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
I get you but you didn't really answer the question or maybe your answer was too indirect or my question wasn't phrased well.

Everybody knows a DOF can fix this mess but what if we don't get one and we're stuck with Ed and the Glazers. So what do you think we should do regarding Ole if Ed and the Glazers stay? Stick with him? Sack him and bring in someone else?
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I'm not sure a DOF is the answer in itself. We need a set up that actually knows what it's doing, and someone who isn't an overpaid car salesman to set it up.

To answer your question...well I think I kind of have done in all my posts. If we're stuck with Woodward and the Glazers and the set up we currently have, I really don't think it makes much difference whether we sack Ole or not. It is impossible for him to succeed in the current circumstances. It will be impossible for anyone who replaces him...and again, pretty much any manager who might be able to at least fail in a more succesful way, simply wouldn't come here at the moment. That's why Ole is our manager in the first place.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
In March yeah. Ole took over in December, made it crystal clear Lukaku wasn’t his cup of tea from the off.
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The truth is useless with these cultists, Ole decided that his 'style' of football meant the first choice forwards would be Rashford & Martial, which is fine but for all practical purposes that meant Lukaku had to find a new club.
 
Shamana said:
I agree, but tell me how many of Jose's transfers + wages that were worth the money

Pogba?
Sanchez?
Baily?
Lindehof
Mhiki?
Zlatan - free agent
Fred?
Matic?
Dalot?
Lukkaku?

Don't you think this has an impact on our team that we've spent shitloads with getting little in return.
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I've always questioned if Sanchez was actually Jose's signing, Fred too, but Mhiki aside, were the rest really flops? Ibra was stellar, Lukaku scored plenty, Lindelof is first choice CB, Matic was fine for a short time, Dalot is just a kid, Bailly has been injured most of the time, and Pogba is a top player, that is not in question, it's just not working out for him here.

We all knew this with Jose, so why start the job if you're not going to finish it, it's like him asking for older established players and then getting grumpy when it didn't happen was a surprise, did Woodward actually know what he was hiring?

And who's to say if he had got a CB what we might have achieved, but the team has been ripped up once again now, maybe with hindsight just getting Maguire a season earlier might have been a better and cheaper idea.

Things are infinitely worse now that much is clear.
 
Micky Targaryen said:
The lengths Ole supporters will go to comfort themselves. First, it was 'we are rebuilding', now it's 'we are still fixing the mess that was left behind'.

The deluded part is that they'd trust a manager like Ole to oversee this 'rebuilding' and 'fixing the mess'. :wenger: :lol:
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It's embarrassing more than anything, first it start with "Ole needs a pre season", then it was "needs transfers" then it started culminating to Woodward, then it started ending up 4-5 years. Most of our fans sound exactly like Neville who would still have Moyes here if had the power to do so. It's just a magnitide of ineptitness.
 
passing-wind said:
It's embarrassing more than anything, first it start with "Ole needs a pre season", then it was "needs transfers" then it started culminating to Woodward, then it started ending up 4-5 years. Most of our fans sound exactly like Neville who would still have Moyes here if had the power to do so. It's just a magnitide of ineptitness.
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I happen to think 'Neville' knows a lot more about professional football than you and you are just passing wind.......
 
matt10000 said:
I happen to think 'Neville' knows a lot more about professional football than you and you are just passing wind.......
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So was Moyes, and a handful of managers sacked few months ago. Being a good or average professional footballer is 1 thing, understanding the professional football is another level, becoming a professional manager is another level let alone a decent one, being a turnaround / troubleshooting manager is not cup of tea to even top managers.
 
noodlehair said:
I'm not sure a DOF is the answer in itself. We need a set up that actually knows what it's doing, and someone who isn't an overpaid car salesman to set it up.

To answer your question...well I think I kind of have done in all my posts. If we're stuck with Woodward and the Glazers and the set up we currently have, I really don't think it makes much difference whether we sack Ole or not. It is impossible for him to succeed in the current circumstances. It will be impossible for anyone who replaces him...and again, pretty much any manager who might be able to at least fail in a more succesful way, simply wouldn't come here at the moment. That's why Ole is our manager in the first place.
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A DoF and a fecking new board, that's the start. If you have a look at our current board you'd see fricking none of those have anything to do with football. It's like a board at Coca Cola, not some fecking football club.

Ole or whoever come in next gonna fail, miserably if the above doesn't change anytime soon. Klopp and Pep refused us, and it seems for good reasons.
 
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