The 4-Way Draft - Finals: Tuppet vs 2mufc0
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Hey man don't get me involved in your thing with @MJJ.
Nedved natural foot is right @Tuppet.
I have always been a big Zagallo fan and I am not denying that he was an important tactical piece especially in 1958 world cup. It can't be denied though that Garrincha was the primary offensive winger on the right side with Zagallo's main role was to provide defensive balance in both midfield and defense so much so that Brazilian tactic is called a 4-3-3.
I stand corrected.
Like I said earlier it's easy to think otherwise, was brilliant with both.
There is no thing, he is just a sad person who is sore about losing. I am your AM despite not voting in the closest match you probably had this draft and voting against you vs the Pep side but vish voting is alright for him
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I wasn't saying that Zagallo was a primary offensive player just that the 58/62 teams had genuine width both sides.I have always been a big Zagallo fan and I am not denying that he was an important tactical piece especially in 1958 world cup. It can't be denied though that Garrincha was the primary offensive winger on the right side with Zagallo's main role was to provide defensive balance in both midfield and defense so much so that Brazilian tactic is called a 4-3-3.
Now Pele won't be going out of his way to provide width on the left side that much is clear, we won't be wasting the best player on the field to do something that is not optimal for him. But Nilton is very much capable of doing it himself, there is no gaping hole on the left side. I mean its only there if you think any team with left wingback and inside forward combo has a gaping hole, say Brazil 2002 with Carlos-Rivaldo or various Italian teams with Cabrini and Facchetti. Its clearly been done enough time for it to be dismissed. Also if Matthaus is drifting wide to double up on Santos, surely my midfield would offer support as well that's only natural that rest of my players won't just stay in rigid positions when defending while another players is getting double teamed.
Ok, if Nilton Santos defends the left flank on his own Djalma will have to tuck in as an RCB and the rest of the defense switch leftwards - that makes sense and can work. The issue is Garrincha won't defend so there's a lot of space for Boniek; Zito could mitigate this but I wouldn't want him vacating the middle much. This isn't a problem in back threes as there's another wingback nor in a zona mistake as the right side wide man (can't remember the exact Italian name at present) tracks back.
I agree my point about a gaping hole with respect to N.Santos was incorrect. My above statement is really my main concern.
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Tbh I'm not interested in these politics, it derails the match so I would kindly request both of you to shut the feck up.There is no thing, he is just a sad feck who is sore about losing. I am your AM despite not voting in the closest match you probably had this draft and voting against you vs the Pep side but vish voting is alright for him
While I agree Rivelino wasn't exactly a winger, Brazil sometimes swapped him and Jairzinho if width/pace/directness was more relevant on the left.
Aye, he was on the left for the famous C Alberto goal iirc.
By the way, what's the general opinion on Nilton as a width-provider? I think he gets shoehorned to the wingback category too often because he was more attacking than Djalma, but he wasn't a relentless overlapper. More of a playmaker from the back, and he rarely crossed the half line. Even though he scored a few after his dribbling runs (but, again, cutting inside).
Yeah, I don't disagree. There are areas 2mufc0's team can take advantages and Garrincha's not tracking back is going to cause defensive problems. But then he always compensated it in attack, and that is where I am hoping to win this. For example Nedved is going to work hard but then Garrincha is going to give a wide threat of different level, otherwise we are just saying that we both have right sided wide players but Nedved is going to work hard and Garrincha is not so 2mufc0 won which is absurd ( I know you are not saying that) because Garrincha is a far superior player. In my opinion Garrincha is going to give Maldini a harder time than Nedved to Nilton Santos. I have spent the football currency on my attack and for all my defeciancies in midfield and defense there is no way 2mufc0 can stop my attack say for example when Garrincha beats Maldini as he will a fair few times, Kohler would have to track him wide but then you have Pele/Ronaldo/Zico running toward the penalty are providing every possible option for Garrincha and with their insane finishing, you better hope that Kohler would win that ball or it would be a goal.
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I agree. He didn't get forward that much. He did relative to his day but nothing like Marcelo. That said he may have been more attacking at club level but there's little to no footage. This seems similar to Marzolini.
He was not a compulsive overlapper like Marcelo but he was certainly a good attacker and I don't think it had anything to do with Djalma being defensive. He was one of the first if not the first fullback to provide overlaps and width and his nickname Encyclopedia was a result of his cultured attacking technique, in the sense that he can do everything.
It also helped that he started the game as an attacker and played that way for quite some time in his career.
That's a good point. You will score in this game , it's just I think 2mufc0 will score more. As I stated earlier I would prefer a more attacking full back on his side and a more orthodox right winger. I just think there's more of a structural problem in your side which he could exploit - also AI think it is easy to resolve by making Zico drift wide left when defending. It will make little difference for your attack but shore it up at the back
While I won't deny Garrincha will cause problems, but Maldini is truly a GOAT defender and on the other hand I can see instances where he would nick the ball off him and carry the ball forward and double up on the right back with Boniek.
Yes !! There is not a soul in the world deserving WC title more than BaggioHow fecking dare you?Baggio was carrying an injury BTW
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I have him down as a slightly more attacking Carlos Alberto. By slightly I mean closer to him than to Cafú or Carlos.
That works on our side as well, Nilton can nick the ball off Nedved and run down on the flank with Pele in support something like this -
And I would say this is more likely since -
a) Nilton unlike Maldini is not facing greatest winger of all time.
b) He is better in attacking
c) There is the proven partnership with Pele on similar roles that won them 2 world cups.
Thoughts on Rijkaard vs Zico? How effective Pele and Ronaldo are, slightly depends on this duel. Matthäus might be the difference-maker in this regard with his b2b role.
Great game with two great sides.
For Tuppet's side I really don't rate Pereira and Da Guia considering the opposition fields Scirea and Kohler. So as a defensive unit the edge is to 2mufc0.
Apart from that it's an excellent side - 2 GOAT full backs, complimentary pairings all round (Pele, Garrincha, Djalma Santos, Zito, Nilton Santos), the inclusion of Fenomeno and Zico... Mouthwatering attack really and a team which is really easy to imagine going forward.
For 2mufc0 I'd really like a Cabrini attacking full back on that left side. I agree that his attack in this sense is a bit more central oriented which Dunga/Zito are well chosen to counter as the base of the midfield.
The rest of the team is great.
Gone with Tuppet with slightest of margins. His team IMO is better prepared to the test 2mufc0 will offer and he also has the best player on the park (Pele), best winger in Garrincha and a slight advantage in the #9 department.
Will follow the discussion as 2mufc0 defensive unit is really giving me a second thought here.
For Tuppet's side I really don't rate Pereira and Da Guia considering the opposition fields Scirea and Kohler. So as a defensive unit the edge is to 2mufc0.
Apart from that it's an excellent side - 2 GOAT full backs, complimentary pairings all round (Pele, Garrincha, Djalma Santos, Zito, Nilton Santos), the inclusion of Fenomeno and Zico... Mouthwatering attack really and a team which is really easy to imagine going forward.
For 2mufc0 I'd really like a Cabrini attacking full back on that left side. I agree that his attack in this sense is a bit more central oriented which Dunga/Zito are well chosen to counter as the base of the midfield.
The rest of the team is great.
Gone with Tuppet with slightest of margins. His team IMO is better prepared to the test 2mufc0 will offer and he also has the best player on the park (Pele), best winger in Garrincha and a slight advantage in the #9 department.
Will follow the discussion as 2mufc0 defensive unit is really giving me a second thought here.
I would be the first to put my hand up and say he has a great attack but that is offset with the quality of my defence and midfield which individually is far superior to the Brazil lineup. While I can see Platini and MvB causing trouble against those CB's.
The difference here is the work rate of Nedved vs Garrincha, you can bet on Pavel busting a gut getting back if he loses the ball.That works on our side as well, Nilton can nick the ball off Nedved and run down on the flank with Pele in support something like this -
And I would say this is more likely since -
a) Nilton unlike Maldini is not facing greatest winger of all time.
b) He is better in attacking
c) There is the proven partnership with Pele on similar roles that won them 2 world cups.
But thats not the comparison, Garrincha doesn't need to bust a gut going back because he has arguably the greatest defensive right back behind him, the one with whom he formed an exceptional partnership as well. While Nedved is manning the right side alone. I was talking more on my left / your right side, where the battle is between Nilton Santos and Pavel Nedved and it could go either way.
If it's 2v1 it doesn't matter if he's the best of all time.
I feel Maldini is bizzarly getting under rated here, if you had to choose any left back over time to play against Garrincha I would wager he would be high on most people's lists. It won't be easy for Garrincha at all.
He is not getting underrated mate
look at the score. Its mostly on the back of your defensive prowess. He would definitely do well against Garrincha than most but obviously he won't (can't ) be completely shut down. All I am saying is Garrincha would have more joy against Maldini than Nedved against Nilton. But that's just one battle you have advantages in other areas as well.On second thoughts, you are right. Not much of a difference here.
Ideally it should be Rijkaard on Pele. Being comfortable at CB and DM, he can follow Pele both ways. Zico will be playing deeper than Pele and Matthaus will be best placed to hound the ball off Zico.
I came here to post exactly thatHow fecking dare you?
An Interesting point would be if Rijkaard does manage to take out Zico, In Pele, Garrincha & Ronaldo we still have three players who can carve out the opposition defense. There is too much creativity in our attack to be completely shut down. On the other hand Platini is the heart beat of team 2mufc0 if he is stopped that would cut the primary source of supply for his attack. Now its all relative ofcourse, Boniek/Nedved/Matthaus are all capable of providing the attacking thrust but neither of them will provide the world class creativity that a Pele or a Garrincha does.
This is all predicated on the basis of Platini being stopped ofcourse which is easier said than done. We are fielding two fantastic defensive midfielders though, both having a single minded task of defending the area where Platini operates.
Thats one of the big reasons of getting Ronaldo, his pace, dribbling, physicality and movement was enough to carve out chances for himself without relying on someone else to create his chances. I am not sure as great a defender as Scirea was he is not going to relish the battle with Ronaldo. Nesta for example who I rate on par with or better than Scirea defensively could not handle him at all -
Full game here -
This is all predicated on the basis of Platini being stopped ofcourse which is easier said than done. We are fielding two fantastic defensive midfielders though, both having a single minded task of defending the area where Platini operates.
Thats one of the big reasons of getting Ronaldo, his pace, dribbling, physicality and movement was enough to carve out chances for himself without relying on someone else to create his chances. I am not sure as great a defender as Scirea was he is not going to relish the battle with Ronaldo. Nesta for example who I rate on par with or better than Scirea defensively could not handle him at all -
Full game here -
If that is the case (Rijkaard on Pele, Matthäus on Zico), then it feels like @2mufc0 is inviting pressure on his defence. I know his backline is the strength of his team but against that attack? Not such a good idea.
It also severely hampers his midfield's influence in attack. Platini might often find himself alone against Dunga and Zito. I know Lothar is a beast but dealing with Zico and then joining the attack is not something that can be done regularly throughout the game imo. Especially when he moves up and find he's up against Dunga.
Yeah, that's how I see it as well. It's a very close contest, but the individual quality of Pele and Ronaldo, plus their potential partnership
, shades it for me.I don't know what I find more surprising, that you were actually allowed to do this or..the score.
How is that possible when both Nedved and Boniek are comfortable cutting inside too? When Platini drops back he'll have Nedved supporting him either through the middle or out wide. And Mvb is as good as R9 here.
Can't see past that Ronaldo-Pele strike force tbh
Complement each other perfectly, and utterly unstoppable.
I think 2mufc can probably get Gentile to man mark Pele or Zico.
Grand finale. Very interesting and spectacular teams from both. Perfect!
If he does it anything like before, 2mufc0 would be playing with 10 men for most of the game and its not gonna stop Zico anyway -
That game incidentally is against almost the same defense that Zico is playing today. Sure there are Rijkaard in place of Tardelli and Maldini in place of Cabrini but its not that big a difference and Zico cut them apart. It took an incredible hat-trick from Rossi to and a very unbalanced Brazilian squad with Serginho as striker to defeat them. Now Zico is surrounded here by Pele, Garrincha & Ronaldo, a much better defense and more balanced midfield. It goes to show that players of that caliber can destroy any defense.
It seem odd to try to sell the greatest player of all time but sometimes he gets overlooked in tactical battles between two formations. Pele is the best player on the field and by a good margin. In his long and storied career he has faced all kind of defenses, especially defenders who were hell bent on hurting him as it was the only way to stop him. And yet he is probably the most decorated player of all time, which goes to show that having good defense is not really a solution against him. He is likely going to be the difference maker here, both teams have great playmakers in Platini and Zico, both have two great number 9s in Ronaldo and MVB. But Pele and Garrincha are the big differential in our attack and that is some differential, In my opinion you can't really make it up with a better defense. You really need a Maradona or Messi to counter that. Not to disregard the chemistry of Pele-Garrincha and their incredible undefeated record for Brazil.
He is indeed playing against a very good defense, so here are some of the great defenders and defenses Pele faced -
That's 3 of the greatest defenders of all time !
He was also instrumental in destroying one of the great Italian team riding the wave of Catenaccio, which made them European champions in 1968 & had players from Milan who were Champions league winner in 1969 and Inter's consecutive CL winners. Players such as Burgnich, Facchetti & Rosato, playing in a conservative Italian system and Brazil ripped them to shreds with Pele being the chief architect
Then there were Santos tours to Europe but Italy specifically where he tore more well drilled Catanaccio defenses down. The highlight was of course beating the Italian champions and CL runner up Inter Milan 4-1. That's a defense which let only 1 goal against the attack of Di Stefano and Puskas and no goals against an attack spearheaded by Eusebio.
Antohan summed it up pretty nicely as "The guy was a fecking machine" in this great post -
He is literally tier of his own here and he would make a difference !
He is indeed playing against a very good defense, so here are some of the great defenders and defenses Pele faced -
That's 3 of the greatest defenders of all time !
He was also instrumental in destroying one of the great Italian team riding the wave of Catenaccio, which made them European champions in 1968 & had players from Milan who were Champions league winner in 1969 and Inter's consecutive CL winners. Players such as Burgnich, Facchetti & Rosato, playing in a conservative Italian system and Brazil ripped them to shreds with Pele being the chief architect
Then there were Santos tours to Europe but Italy specifically where he tore more well drilled Catanaccio defenses down. The highlight was of course beating the Italian champions and CL runner up Inter Milan 4-1. That's a defense which let only 1 goal against the attack of Di Stefano and Puskas and no goals against an attack spearheaded by Eusebio.
Antohan summed it up pretty nicely as "The guy was a fecking machine" in this great post -
Here's the post he was replying to with some great data -Great stats but what you failed to do there, which is far more impressive, is order it by date.
Those were gruelling tours Santos engaged in to raise funds and which ultimately enabled them to keep Pelé (although he didn't earn that much comparatively, even had a shoe store jointly owned with a couple of other players).
I tired to transfer to excel but the formatting went tits up, so just did 1959 for reference, and particularly for those questioning whether he would be fit enough to deal with the modern game:
19 games in 39 days
11 wins, 4 draws, 4 defeats
69 goals for, 36 against, 24 goals scored by Pelé (1.26gpg)
05-26-1959 1-0 - Royal Standard
05-27-1959 4-2 2 RSC Anderlecht
05-30-1959 1-2 – Gentoise
06-03-1959 3-0 1 Feijenoord Rotterdam
06-05-1959 2-3 2 Inter Milano
06-06-1959 6-4 1 Fortuna Düsseldorf
06-07-1959 3-3 – 1. FC Nuremberg
06-09-1959 4-1 1 Servette Geneva
06-11-1959 6-0 1 Selection Hamburg
06-13-1959 7-1 3 Selection Lower-Saxony
06-15-1959 5-0 3 Selection Enschede
06-17-1959 3-5 1 Real Madrid
06-19-1959 2-2 1 Sporting Lisboa
06-24-1959 4-4 1 FC Valencia
06-26-1959 7-1 4 Inter Milano
06-28-1959 5-1 2 FC Barcelona
06-30-1959 4-2 - Genoa
07-02-1959 0-3 – Austria Wien
07-05-1959 2-2 1 Betis Sevilla
Look again at the fixtures, they regularly had to travel back and forth, and probably spent much of their resting time on a plane or train (e.g. 24/6 Valencia, 26/6 Milan, 28/6 Barcelona, 30/6 Genoa, 2/7 Austria Wien and 5/7 Betis back in Sevilla!).
Another remarkable thing is that he actually scores more as the tour progresses and he gets the hang of how these European teams try to go about stopping him
The guy was a fecking machine.
He is literally tier of his own here and he would make a difference !
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Can't imagine how any team can beat that all star Brazil 11.
The chemistry between the players are also well established.
If nothing else they'll outscore the opponents.
Would have been mouthwatering to watch.
The chemistry between the players are also well established.
If nothing else they'll outscore the opponents.
Would have been mouthwatering to watch.