But what are his managerial capabilities at this level? He has never shown any. I sometimes wonder if United fans have any comprehension of what Fergie achieved at Aberdeen. I get the impression that they judge them by modern Scottish standards, which involves Celtic (would be, at best, bottom half of the PL) plus various pub teams. In his day, in addition to the big 2, there was also Dundee United who reached a UEFA Cup final. Moyes, on the other hand, was in charge of what is historically England's 4th most successful club, who last won a trophy in 1995 under Joe Royle, and managed one cup final in 12 years.
The 'Awful Squad' Brigade
- Thread starter Sarni
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
It didn't take Moyes more than a few weeks into the season to say 'there'll be more days like this' after the City defeat or claim we're six players away from being CL contenders. He's just lowered the bar of what we can achieve and raised the bar or how much work he has to do, it's sometimes difficult to remember he took over the bloody champions.
Mourinho goes to Chelsea, and John Terry gets a second life. Moyes goes to United, and every thirty year old - even ones who had great seasons last year - turns to crap. Coincidence? I'm not sure, I'm really not.
Isn't that the case though?
Genuinely, is there a rational reason why Moyes shouldn't be sacked (I am exclusing 'Fergie is always right' and 'we're better than others' cause those are romantic explanations, not logical/rational ones)? Do you really think that he has what it takes to make United again the best team in England and win a lot of trophy? Do you think that he has in him to completely change his philosophy, to go always for win and to start winning trophies in the age of 50+.
He wasn't hired for his proven record at this level. He was hired because the people who hired him believe he can make the necessary step up. His lack of trophies was presumably known to them when they decided to offer him a contract.
Yes, there is a rational reason: He needs time to get it right. It's what the club have preached from day one. This may entail a rough ride, unrest among the players, getting rid of certain players - and it will most certainly entail getting IN certain players in vital positions. He's been in charge for seven months. One may claim - perfectly rationally - that he hasn't had enough time yet to prove himself.Isn't that the case though?
Genuinely, is there a rational reason why Moyes shouldn't be sacked (I am exclusing 'Fergie is always right' and 'we're better than others' cause those are romantic explanations, not logical/rational ones)? Do you really think that he has what it takes to make United again the best team in England and win a lot of trophy? Do you think that he has in him to completely change his philosophy, to go always for win and to start winning trophies in the age of 50+.
Of course, but at the age of 50? There aren't many examples I can think of (ignoring promoted assistants like Paisley and Fagan).
Players need guidance. There is no way 11 men will play to their ability if they don't have tactics and a game plan that suits them in place, it's absolutely essential to ensure that they are set up the right way or else they won't perform. It's what you have a manager for, all the myths about good players playing well without one (like it had been said about Pep's Barca yet he is doing an equally impressive job at Bayern) are nonsense. A good manager will get a squad of average players to play well and a terrible manager will drag a good team down.
It's baffling how people can consistently slag off players who have won this club all there was to win because they need to defend a man who hasn't had a single positive impact on club's fortune.
Matter of context. He was at Everton for over a decade. His chances of winning major trophies there were slim to nil. Look, we've been over this a million times. The next post will be someone saying that if he really was anything to speak of he would've gotten an offer from Real Madrid at some point during that decade - and so on and so forth. It's been done to bloody death.
And what if he spends £300m to get it right and finishes 6th again two seasons in a row? What is our next move then?
He'd be within his right to get time if we had actually shown a single thing that would make me think that he has any idea what he's doing here. There seems to be no plan.
How much is that time? 2-3 years?
Should he get a free ride, not being judged regardless of results/performances until that arbitrarely timestamp comes? If there are 800 days should we pretend that he will become good until the 799th day and then jump him on the next day?
Why exactly he is the only person on the world who should not be judged without 'the time' comes? What guarantees that if he gets 'the time' to get it right, he'll become a sucess. Feck the guarantees, what does it tell you that he has even a small chance of succedding here even if we give him 5 years and 200 millions. Will he suddenly become a better manager? Outsmart the likes of Mourinho, Pellegrini or Guardiola/Ancelotti in UCL. What if those money aren't spend well? Do we have to give a lot o time andf money to the next manager? And if he is wrong, continue the same with the next manager?
What constitutes of him getting it right? Qualifying for UCL? Making a challenge for the fourth spot? Dropping Young or Valencia?
Sorry, I know that are a lot of questions. Some may even look stupid. However your response of he needs time is basically the rehashed original response, that managers will become success if they get the right time similar to Fergie. That isn't the case though, and you know it well.
He won't be allowed to spend that kind of money and finish 6th two seasons in a row. It's as simple as that - and I've said that too a million times. If he gets the window, gets to spend a fortune on reinforcements, he will have to show something for it next season. The football people at the club aren't mugs. They will expect him to deliver at some point. And that point will be sooner rather than later.
We'll be in a horrendous position if we lose on CL twice in a row spending £150m+ (because we have already spend £65m and if you think he needs money I doubt you are talking in small figures, then he'd only still have this awful team Fergie had left him) in the meantime.
So we tear up the blueprint of the last few years for a man who's claim to fame is finishing fourth 10 years ago (mainly because Liverpool gave up the league to focus on winning the CL) and winning the old 3rd division with Preston? Do you have any idea how absurd this sounds to the outside world? One of the four highest revenue generating clubs in the world, arguably the best supported, gambles its future on a 50 year old mid-table manager? Even Liverpool, desperate as they were after Hodgson and Dalglish and without CL football, went for a bright young thing who was known for using modern tactics. We went for a slightly more polished version of Big Sam (but, no worries, Fergie was friends with his Dad).
You're looking at it from a very different angle than I am - that is the main thing here. He isn't the only person in the world who should be given time. Any manager taking over from SAF should be given time. More time than seven months with a team that can't be said to be his creation at all.
You don't think he's good enough - I know that. It's pointless for me to try and convince you otherwise. The "he needs time" argument is all I have - and it's a waste of time to dress it up in ever new garbs just to prolong this debate.
Yeah, yeah - awful team, awful squad brigade, broken records all over the place. It's not an awful team. It won't be an awful team for the next manager either should he get the boot. The players he apparently wants us to buy are top quality.
It baffled all of us why oh why he left out Januzaj. When asked, he said that he had "decided" last week he's using Cleverly so he left Januzaj out. When pressed further, he said, I used Cleverly and decided to leave Januzaj out. What the hell had he in mind when choosing the start 11? It does not make sense at all.
Fabregas was top quality too. And plays for Barcelona.
If people seriously think that the likes of Kroos will sacrifice UCL, good football and trophies just to come to play for United under Moyes they are mistaken. We won't even offer more money than the likes of City/Chelsea if those players are available, and with the loss of Ferguson and UCL, I don't fancy our chances that much.
We need to find players of quality and who were in situations similar to Mata (not playing in the first 11 of their team and therefore available for the right money). It's gonna be impossible to buy players who regularly feature in the starting 11 of their top teams.
So many so called "Fans" would rather turn on multiple title winning players who've been to 3 CL finals in order to defend someone haplessly incapable of getting the best out of them.
And then offer to them insane money and hope that other biggies won't go for them. I am not saying that it won't happen, just that the chances will be low for that to happen.
I think that we have practically zero chance on getting the likes of Kroos or Vidal which have been mentioned during the few months.
If I was Moyes, I would be concentrated more in stars in the making. Considering that a lot of people think that we need to sign many players (7-9) then that is the only way to succedd. We won't sing 5 Matas in the summer and neither spend 200m.
Which brings us to the most important question. Is Moyes good enough to identify, convince and sing these players? I mean the players we have a real chance to sign. It means feck all if he thinks that Fabregas, Vidal, Kroos, Ronaldo or Messi are great players, everybody knows that. Who are his realistic targets would be interesting to know.
Why does it have to be his own? What kind of excuse is that to taking a very good team and turning it into a very mediocre one? It's hardly as if he's ripped Fergie's apart and we've still finding our feet as a new team evolves. It's pretty much the same team, only crappier.
I'm OK with giving time, but it shouldn't be given blindly. Nothing we've seen hints that time is an issue here. He's just not right for this level.
Now, that is something we can discuss. And it's a far more interesting discussion too. I think you're being overly pessimistic - but it all depends on what the owners are willing to spend. Footballers can be bought regardless of Fergie and the Champions League, of that I have no doubt whatsoever. We can offer a top player at a top club double the money he's making at the moment - if we're willing to spend that money. By all reports we doubled Mata's salary, for instance. The much drooled over Vidal makes a pittance at Juve compared to what we could offer him.
Im Sorry
All you Moyes bashers are right. I mean Valencia, Young, Clevs, Smalling, Evra, Kagawa, Nani, Rio, Welbeck, Hernandez were all setting the world a-light the for the last couple of years. Moyes has come in and now there all useless..... Oh wait
This somewhat elegantly encapsulates the matter.
Many of the players you mentioned performed a lot better in the last couple of years than in this one.
I'm not blind. And I won't support him blindly for ever. The conclusion you have drawn is premature for me, that is all.
With respect it really doesn't. Because it presupposes that these players are immune to change - which no known form of life is.
Good players don't become bad players over night. Average managers don't become good managers over night.
For each his own, really. I made up my mind about Moyes in early December. So for me it's now been three months since then, and rather than give me a hint of a positive change he's only made things worse. So it's hard for me to think he just needs more time.
That's fair enough. I'm not about to wager my life savings on him becoming SAF 2.0. But I would like to give him some more time.
They aren't doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. They're getting paid obscene amounts of money to perform. It's only right that they be blamed (partially, mind) when performances don't match the expectation. And this season, I can count the number of players who have done well on one hand.
So feck 'em. feck Moyes too. For now at least.
Didn't Vidal just signed a new contract worth 10+m for year?
It depends how much Glazers will spend but at the end of the day it depends if we will have competition from other clubs. Lets say Bayern decides to not offer more than 6m for Kroos. We decide to offer 10m. But then at-least one of Chelsea/City/Barca/Madrid/PSG will match that offer. We are talking for one of the best midfielders in the world. Why would Kroos choose us? All those teams are miles better than us, play better football, have better managers and are located in more exciting cities (well, bar City). I think that the same goes for Fabregas, if Barca would have accepted our offer, a lot of clubs would have matched it. We usually lost (bar RVP, Berba and Young - all players in whom City was interested though they weren't a big team when we signed the first two) even with Sir Alex who almost guaranteed trophies and with UCL. Without neither of them, our chances likely will be lower.
And I am not even counting what may happen in the summer. I would be surprised if some of the players who will depart won't talk to media about how bad Moyes is. They always do. Even in cases when the manager is better. Doesn't neccesarily mean that our targets will get affected from that, but it may give double thoughts to them. If the legends about his training methods and tactics are even half true and come from reliable sources (like (ex-)United players who might be friends with the targets), I guess that a lot of players will avoid him like the plague.
The other debate has been done to death and we are in completely different sides. I was more being curious why you think that Moyes is a good manager.
Some of those players were lesser parts of our team, certainly compared with Robin, Rooney, Carrick, Vidic, Rafael, etc, and yet several of those have also made very good contributions over the last couple of years. Now they are struggling to do even that. Kagawa has moved from an OK first season with some promising moments into nothingness, Rio from a good season into a total disaster, Hernandez was a great weapon to have and is a spare part now, Cleverley has shown good signs in the past (he was a regular in the first half of last season as we picked up some big away wins). Now we can't even get much from those guys. The great players have become good, the good ones are bad, the bad ones are total crap.
I was actually hoping that with a new manager - Moyes in our case - some players who were under performing in the last year or two - Valencia or Young, for instance - would have a new lease of life. But nothing. Seriously, which of our players can we look at and say he's had positive impact on?
Millions are spent on F1 cars, but they don't just ask anyone to drive them around a track do they?
Great players need a great manager, a motivator a winner, a cunning tactician who can change a game before it gets away from them. Instead they've got a man telling them to make it difficult for Newcastle at home. Get it to the byline and whip it in.
Perhaps it does, but the question is whether such sudden changes in form are attributable to each individual or whether they are environmental (Manager/tactics/atmosphere).
Woods is the man working with DDG. Rooney has had a good start but hasn't looked particularly good since his injury and Januzaj has never played for Manchester United in the past. So while Moyes deserves credit for giving him a chance, we've no idea if he's helped him become better than another manager would.
Heck, even if I give you those three players without argument, it's a ridiculous number out of a squad of around 25.
Good managers get players playing above themselves; just look at Swansea or Southampton for proof of that. Our players haven't just magically turned useless over night, it's all to do with how they are coached and how they are instructed to play.
We could have brought Messi and Ronaldo on last night and it wouldn't have made a jot of difference.
Barcelona won La Liga with a man stricken with cancer at the helm. No... they strolled to a league title. The lack of managerial input showed in the Champions League, where they stumbled to a semi final before being destroyed by Bayern. So they were able to defeat regular run of the mill teams. I was very depressed yesterday, but I cannot make the leap in logic to the conclusion that Moyes is causing half the team to perform way below standards. feck Moyes... yes... but some performances have been inexcusable.
Hernandez had the best goal per minute ratio in EPL last season. He had an average season before than and a great one before that.
Kagawa had a decent season (considering also his injuries). He was one of the top Bundesliga performers in the season before that.
Nani last season was injured and a bit shit. The season before that was good while on 2010-2011 was arguably the best player in the league.
Rio was the best CB (or at-least the second best after Vertonghen) last season.
Evra had a very good season last year though was shit on 2011-2012.
Welbeck is better this year than last season, I grant you that.
Cleverley was much better last season, though not first team (or maybe even squad player) material
Valencia and Young have been equally shit last season. Strangely enough they are some of the most preferred Moyes players.
I may add RVP and Carrick who were world class last season, while this season one looks only a good striker while the other looks a pub midfielder. Throw Rafael in the mix if you want
Morale of the story: The majority of the players are significantly underperforming. I don't think that people should have a Sigmund Freud's brain in order to realize why that is happening.