The beginning of the end... (the original board vetoed Mourinho's transfer wish list thread)

[Tincanalley]

Fair enough. He's still been very well backed financially since he became our manager.

With the advent of TV rights bonanzas and external dark money, one thing was clear since the last phase of last season. It would take a massive investment to compete. Doesn’t matter who the manager was. It would take a plan, football nous, a supportive structure. Last year Jose made big improvements but it was very much a work in progress.

This window something happened to that plan. The little Muppet CEO (or someone above him) thought they knew better. I was not mad about Mou coming in, but I am disgusted with the way he is being treated. I am encouraged though by all the Caftards who have woken up and smelled the coffee

 

[Berbaclass]

With the advent of TV rights bonanzas and external dark money, one thing was clear since the last phase of last season. It would take a massive investment to compete. Doesn’t matter who the manager was. It would take a plan, football nous, a supportive structure. Last year Jose made big improvements but it was very much a work in progress.

This window something happened to that plan. The little Muppet CEO (or someone above him) thought they knew better. I was not mad about Mou coming in, but I am disgusted with the way he is being treated. I am encouraged though by all the Caftards who have woken up and smelled the coffee

I can see both points of view though.

On one hand (as far as Woodward/Glazer are concerned) he's pretty much pissed £400 Million away and had very little to show for it. But on the other, I do agree that more money needed to be spent to keep up. But how much? Where do you draw the line?

The likely thing that happened is that the board know that Jose isn't going to be around for a great deal longer and refused to throw more money at the problem and are about to try a different approach (the DoF news).

I think he will leave and they will get in this new DoF and really put in place a plan for the future and take the club forward.

 

[Valar Morghulis]

The Carrick promotion and the recent DoF search are no coincidence IMO. He's being groomed to take over eventually and will be helped by McKenna and the new DoF. Thats how I see things going forward.

No no no no no

I'm no Mourinho fan but I really don't want us to take the rookie route.

 

[Tincanalley]

I can see both points of view though.

On one hand (as far as Woodward/Glazer are concerned) he's pretty much pissed £400 Million away and had very little to show for it. But on the other, I do agree that more money needed to be spent to keep up. But how much? Where do you draw the line?

The likely thing that happened is that the board know that Jose isn't going to be around for a great deal longer and refused to throw more money at the problem and are about to try a different approach (the DoF news).

I think he will leave and they will get in this new DoF and really put in place a plan for the future and take the club forward.

Very good. I know what you mean. Nearly relegated last year. Out of CL. No progress at all. Poor old Glazers/Woodward. They know so much about football, too,

 

[Berbaclass]

Very good. I know what you mean. Nearly relegated last year. Out of CL. No progress at all. Poor old Glazers/Woodward. They know so much about football, too,

Well what exactly have we won after spending £400 Million? I'm sure you would agree that were still underachieving?

 

[steffyr2]

Well what exactly have we won after spending £400 Million? I'm sure you would agree that were still underachieving?

And here you have the poster child for short term thinking!

Good thing Ed Woodward has moved us past that, now we're looking at the looooooooong (and less expensive) term. With a DoF to do a soft shoe if the natives start to get restless.

 

[Tincanalley]

Well what exactly have we won after spending £400 Million? I'm sure you would agree that were still underachieving?

Every other club bar city would be delighted with the platform built last year. Excellent points total. Second place. A midfield! Listen I could go on but I’m tired. You seem like a sound person, but your argument is s little thin. Obviously its anyone but JM for you. Hope you enjoy the season.

Edit: I was a Berba fan too

 

[Berbaclass]

And here you have the poster child for short term thinking!

Good thing Ed Woodward has moved us past that, now we're looking at the looooooooong (and less expensive) term. With a DoF to do a soft shoe if the natives start to get restless.

Mourinho was never or is a long term plan though is he.

It's not all about money. It's more about the way the money has been spent and how little it seems to have improved us over the last 2/3 years.

Klopp and Pep have spent similar or even more amounts of money but the difference is the progression in the teams. We've spent that money and almost stagnated, whereas City/Liverpool have gone from strength to strength, more so City obviously.

We don't have a plan.

 

[steffyr2]

Mourinho was never or is a long term plan though is he.

It's not all about money. It's more about the way the money has been spent and how little it seems to have improved us over the last 2/3 years.

Klopp and Pep have spent similar or even more amounts of money but the difference is the progression in the teams. We've spent that money and almost stagnated, whereas City/Liverpool have gone from strength to strength, more so City obviously.

We don't have a plan.

I'm curious, what's wrong with the way the money was spent? There's a general consensus on here that the team is now great and any problems with how we play can be blamed on Mourinho.

Do you disagree?

Liverpool wound up behind us in the table, btw.

 

[Berbaclass]

I'm curious, what's wrong with the way the money was spent? There's a general consensus on here that the team is now great and any problems with how we play can be blamed on Mourinho.

Do you disagree?

Liverpool wound up behind us in the table, btw.

Because despite spending that amount of money were still absolute shite most of the time. That's down to Jose IMO and his coaching/tactical ability.

A hypothetical for you. Lets say we and City had spent an equal amount of money and Jose got all the signings he wants, do you really think we'd get anywhere near City?

For the board we're now at the point of diminishing returns and I would have to agree with them. I think it's likely in the next 12 months of so that he'll leave so they're hardly going to give him another £200 million (on top of all the £70 Million he spent this summer)

 

[AR87]

Fair enough. He's still been very well backed financially since he became our manager.

Our squad was shite. The only proven world class level talent he inherited was DDG. Martial and Rashford were promising young talents. I

Because despite spending that amount of money were still absolute shite most of the time. That's down to Jose IMO and his coaching/tactical ability.

A hypothetical for you. Lets say we and City had spent an equal amount of money and Jose got all the signings he wants, do you really think we'd get anywhere near City?

Yes.

 

[Berbaclass]

Our squad was shite. The only proven world class level talent he inherited was DDG. Martial and Rashford were promising young talents. I


Yes.

Mourinho built a reputation on getting the best out of players not considered 'world class'.

I just can't agree that the only difference between us and City is money. On a footballing level they're on a completely different level. £100 Million isn't really going to close that gap if you ask me. Thats probably also how the board see it and I would have to agree with them.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Mourinho built a reputation on getting the best out of players not considered 'world class'.

I just can't agree that the only difference between us and City is money. On a footballing level they're on a completely different level. £100 Million isn't really going to close that gap if you ask me. Thats probably also how the board see it and I would have to agree with them.

Why didn't Pep win the league in his first season? His football blueprint, tactical plan was the same, no?

 

[steffyr2]

Because despite spending that amount of money were still absolute shite most of the time. That's down to Jose IMO and his coaching/tactical ability.

A hypothetical for you. Lets say we and City had spent an equal amount of money and Jose got all the signings he wants, do you really think we'd get anywhere near City?

From a standing start? 0 players on each side? Mourinho would win.

For the board we're now at the point of diminishing returns and I would have to agree with them. I think it's likely in the next 12 months of so that he'll leave so they're hardly going to give him another £200 million (on top of all the £70 Million he spent this summer)

Because getting in the top 4 is all that matters from a financial perspective, right, and spending the extra money (plus the risk!) to get to #1 isn't worth the return. That's an understandable perspective from the board's view, and so is this song and dance routine that's being done now to try and turn the fan's attention to something else.

 

[Berbaclass]

Why didn't Pep win the league in his first season? His football blueprint, tactical plan was the same, no?

Takes time to implement when you start a fresh.

 

[SouthPredators4]

Quite frankly, when i see our transfers in the last few windows in comparison with the other clubs, i felt all 3 managers were to be blamed and deserves the sack. In our club, the manager identifies his targets and Woodward would negotiates. None of our post Fergie transfers were a resounding successes. Then why would we attached any blame for Woodward's sceptism and reluctance to all out support Mourinho's myopic direction for the club? Bearing in mind that Woodwards has the club's long term interests as his focus, than Mourinho who is never one to stay long.

I do think we have huge flaws in our playing personels and buying 29~30years old players are temporary solutions of sweeping dirt under the carpet. A DOF is a step in the right direction and if Mourinho cannot accept his responsibility in our mediocre transfer successes during his tenure, i would rather he goes, have an influential name as a DOF, and bring Zidane in to repair our badly damaged reputation for plaing style.

 

[PepsiCola]

Pep is a vastly superior coach to Mourinho.

 

[barros]

Mourinho was never or is a long term plan though is he.

It's not all about money. It's more about the way the money has been spent and how little it seems to have improved us over the last 2/3 years.

Klopp and Pep have spent similar or even more amounts of money but the difference is the progression in the teams. We've spent that money and almost stagnated, whereas City/Liverpool have gone from strength to strength, more so City obviously.

We don't have a plan.

If Pogba and sanchez was Ed’s buy then don’t forget to subtract from what mourinho spent, I don’t like mourinho but one thing I know about him... dont contract “football stars” he doesn’t like them because they unsettle the team and obviously Pogba wouldn’t be his buy.

 

[Berbaclass]

From a standing start? 0 players on each side? Mourinho would win.



Because getting in the top 4 is all that matters from a financial perspective, right, and spending the extra money (plus the risk!) to get to #1 isn't worth the return. That's an understandable perspective from the board's view, and so is this song and dance routine that's being done now to try and turn the fan's attention to something else.

Maybe 10 years ago, football has moved on and he's in danger of being left behind.

No, top 4 isn't all that matters. From my point of view I think they know that paying £60 Million for a new CB isn't really going to make that much of a difference. I highly doubt that if we had indeed spent £60 Million on Maguire/Toby then we magically would have been transformed into a good team and won the title.

The difference between us and City is that they are far more effective than we are. They've spent (for the most part) wisely on players that fit the team and elevate the team. The team we have is good enough to win the league IMO if we're talking about ability. It's Jose's inability to translate that ability (for the most part) into performances that is the problem. Whether it's him not being able to properly motivate them or his tactics/system I don't know but in my opinion it's not solely about money.

 

[Berbaclass]

If Pogba and sanchez was Ed’s buy then don’t forget to subtract from what mourinho spent, I don’t like mourinho but one thing I know about him... dont contract “football stars” he doesn’t like them because they unsettles the team and obviously Pogba wouldn’t be his buy.

So you think Mourinho would not have wanted us to sign Pogba or Sanchez?

 

[barros]

Pep is a vastly superior coach to Mourinho.

After his spell at Bayern I don’t think so

 

[barros]

So you think Mourinho would not have wanted us to sign Pogba or Sanchez?

Not his type of player and Pogba is a good player but not a world class player

 

[AR87]

So you think Mourinho would not have wanted us to sign Pogba or Sanchez?

Pogba yes, Sanchez no.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Takes time to implement when you start a fresh.

So what about Conte? His first season he won the league and with a series of records like total Wins that was beaten by Pep in his second year only after spending another couple mil.

 

[Berbaclass]

So what about Conte? His first season he won the league and with a series of records like total Wins that was beaten by Pep in his second year only after spending another couple mil.

I think there was a lot more work involved behind the scenes in implementing Pep's style of football. Chelsea were good because Conte is a very good coach and were well drilled but that high intensity pressing style that City play is a more difficult style to implement short term.

 

[AR87]

The difference between us and City is that they are far more effective than we are. They've spent (for the most part) wisely on players that fit the team and elevate the team.

They've spent far more for years in advance for Pep's eventual arrival and hiring decision makers in line with Pep's beliefs/philosophy. Pep inherited a team with Aguero, KDB, Silva, Fernandinho and Sterling.

Even then City were nothing special his 1st year in charge. Splurging on the top FBs on the market and cutting the deadwood in the squad changed that.

Also disagree they've spent their money much more wisely, I just think their owners are able/more willing to keep spending if a signing doesn't work out.

Jose has not had carte blanche to shape the squad in any way he sees fit. His arrival wasn't a years in the making process, but rather a reaction to 2 horrible managerial appointments who failed miserably at improving the quality of the squad in a meaningful way despite being given great sums of money to do so. The squad he inherited lacked quality and didn't particularly have any ethos or style of play which suited everybody as it was largely a collection of disparate parts.

IMO Jose has made significant strides in identifying players who represent tangible upgrades in quality and has improved our results, which is seen in our finishing position in the table last season with 81 points. That progression hasn't been as aesthetically pleasing as many supporters prefer and there have been poor results (Sevilla) mixed in which Jose must take blame for.

That said I do think the players he was asking for this summer would have done quite a bit to improve our level of play and gotten more out of our attacking players, specifically Pogba. Fred is a nice complement to him, Willian would have provided natural width and Alderweireld would have allowed our CMs to stay higher up the pitch rather than having to shuttle back to the CBs to collect the ball. All of these players would also improve our ability to transition quickly from defense into attack, something all of Jose's previous teams have been excellent at and which we've struggled with frequently.

I don't think it's wrong for the board to have turned him down on his targets. I do think it's wrong that they suggested no alternatives to the list he submitted and then briefed the press right after the window closed.

I'm not Jose out atm, but I could get there depending on how this season goes. I think people underestimate the difficulty of the job that Jose took over, though and that he's been better (not flawless or close to it) during his 2 years at United than what seems to be the general consensus.

 

[YouOnlyLiveTwice]

Reflecting back on our transfer window, i must say i blame Woodward/the board.

Mourinho accepted that a CB was the only player he could get after completing Fred and Dalot. We then leave it till very late in the window trying to buy one. I can see why we didn’t go for Mina or Boateng, fair enough. But if we deemed Alderweireld too expensive, old, and injury Prometheus, Then why didn’t we try and snap up a player like Lenglet very early in the market? I think he would have chosen us over Barca’s bench tbh. Or spend the Varane money on a player like Skriniar, who many agree will be one of the best in the world? I doubt Inter would say no to a 100m.

It doesn’t matter now, we can’t go back in time, but either we fecked up our planning very badly, or Glazer’s didn’t agree to spend anymore this season. I really hope it’s the former, because that can be helped, starting by getting a DOF, which it looks like we plan to do.

 

[Berbaclass]

They've spent far more for years in advance for Pep's eventual arrival and hiring decision makers in line with Pep's beliefs/philosophy. Pep inherited a team with Aguero, KDB, Silva, Fernandinho and Sterling.

Even then City were nothing special his 1st year in charge. Splurging on the top FBs on the market and cutting the deadwood in the squad changed that.

Also disagree they've spent their money much more wisely, I just think their owners are able/more willing to keep spending if a signing doesn't work out.

Jose has not had carte blanche to shape the squad in any way he sees fit. His arrival wasn't a years in the making process, but rather a reaction to 2 horrible managerial appointments who failed miserably at improving the quality of the squad in a meaningful way despite being given great sums of money to do so. The squad he inherited lacked quality and didn't particularly have any ethos or style of play which suited everybody as it was largely a collection of disparate parts.

IMO Jose has made significant strides in identifying players who represent tangible upgrades in quality and has improved our results, which is seen in our finishing position in the table last season with 81 points. That progression hasn't been as aesthetically pleasing as many supporters prefer and there have been poor results (Sevilla) mixed in which Jose must take blame for.

That said I do think the players he was asking for this summer would have done quite a bit to improve our level of play and gotten more out of our attacking players, specifically Pogba. Fred is a nice complement to him, Willian would have provided natural width and Alderweireld would have allowed our CMs to stay higher up the pitch rather than having to shuttle back to the CBs to collect the ball. All of these players would also improve our ability to transition quickly from defense into attack, something all of Jose's previous teams have been excellent at and which we've struggled with frequently.

I don't think it's wrong for the board to have turned him down on his targets. I do think it's wrong that they suggested no alternatives to the list he submitted and then briefed the press right after the window closed.

I'm not Jose out atm, but I could get there depending on how this season goes. I think people underestimate the difficulty of the job that Jose took over, though and that he's been better (not flawless or close to it) during his 2 years at United than what seems to be the general consensus.

Thats what the problem is for me. They have a long term plan and are executing it very well. We seem to be all about short term fixes fixes right now.

The news of a possible DoF incoming makes me really optimistic that this will change though and they will actually start to put a plan in place on and off the field and follow it.

 

[Sterling Archer]

I think there was a lot more work involved behind the scenes in implementing Pep's style of football. Chelsea were good because Conte is a very good coach and were well drilled but that high intensity pressing style that City play is a more difficult style to implement short term.

I agree with you there. Being able to control and break down a game in possession is, in my understanding of the game, more difficult than sitting back, soaking pressure and countering.

But I also don't think that style can have the kind of success that is associated with Pep, without the expensive assortment of players. So goes back to what you said earlier - Jose in contrast employs a style that can be successful with a good squad rather than the most elite squad...if that makes sense.

But he's also a winnner. As most United fans are accustomed to. But to compete with this City team, the usual Jose effort of making it work won't be enough...last season is a great example. We came in second and beat every other team in the league. Fa cup final as well. But it pales in comparison to City.

I do believe Jose can have an equally good season, even with his anti football if you want to call it that. But it needs two world class players for every position. So in the end, I can't fault Jose. It's the board. Do they want cheap but pretty football and top 4? Hire Wenger. They want a deep rivalry with City and coming out on top, back Jose. He's the one of a select few currents that has been able to better Pep

 

[Berbaclass]

I agree with you there. Being able to control and break down a game in possession is, in my understanding of the game, more difficult than sitting back, soaking pressure and countering.

But I also don't think that style can have the kind of success that is associated with Pep, without the expensive assortment of players. So goes back to what you said earlier - Jose in contrast employs a style that can be successful with a good squad rather than the most elite squad...if that makes sense.

But he's also a winnner. As most United fans are accustomed to. But to compete with this City team, the usual Jose effort of making it work won't be enough...last season is a great example. We came in second and beat every other team in the league. Fa cup final as well. But it pales in comparison to City.

I do believe Jose can have an equally good season, even with his anti football if you want to call it that. But it needs two world class players for every position. So in the end, I can't fault Jose. It's the board. Do they want cheap but pretty football and top 4? Hire Wenger. They want a deep rivalry with City and coming out on top, back Jose. He's the one of a select few currents that has been able to better Pep

I'm not particularly against Jose but I think his tactics and style are outdated and ineffective. Granted he's not at antiquated as LVG and his methods but I think he's still trying to set us up like he did at Chelsea in '05 but football has moved on now.

 

[AR87]

I'm not particularly against Jose but I think his tactics and style are outdated and ineffective. Granted he's not at antiquated as LVG and his methods but I think he's still trying to set us up like he did at Chelsea in '05 but football has moved on now.

I actually think he realizes that. I believe targeting Fred and shifting Pereira to operate in midfield, specifically as a 6, shows an evolution in his way of thinking. Granted he's always going to err on the side of pragmatism, but I feel that he very much understands that our overall technical quality must improve and it's why he very much wanted Alderweireld.

I don't know if Jose can achieve such a transformation, but it'll be interesting to see how we play this year.

 

[Berbaclass]

I actually think he realizes that. I believe targeting Fred and shifting Pereira to operate in midfield, specifically as a 6, shows an evolution in his way of thinking. Granted he's always going to err on the side of pragmatism, but I feel that he very much understands that our overall technical quality must improve and it's why he very much wanted Alderweireld.

I don't know if Jose can achieve such a transformation, but it'll be interesting to see how we play this year.

I hope he does manage it and it certainly will be interesting but ultimately I just don't see it happening. Won't stop me supporting the team any less though.

 

[Sterling Archer]

I'm not particularly against Jose but I think his tactics and style are outdated and ineffective. Granted he's not at antiquated as LVG and his methods but I think he's still trying to set us up like he did at Chelsea in '05 but football has moved on now.

They're not trendy or hot that's for sure. Can't say they're ineffective though. I won't even go so far back as last season, just earlier in this summer to the French national team. Watching them as a neutral was infuriating. Considering all the quality across their squad they played a conservative, risk averse football that was in a lot of ways reminiscent of Jose, Conte or Someone's style.

Its not the most entertaining. But its still effective. Let's remember Pep has only just won the title. Long way to go yet to see if it can be replicated when even newly promoted teams are throwing around 100 million in transfers

 

[Berbaclass]

They're not trendy or hot that's for sure. Can't say they're ineffective though. I won't even go so far back as last season, just earlier in this summer to the French national team. Watching them as a neutral was infuriating. Considering all the quality across their squad they played a conservative, risk averse football that was in a lot of ways reminiscent of Jose, Conte or Someone's style.

Its not the most entertaining. But its still effective. Let's remember Pep has only just won the title. Long way to go yet to see if it can be replicated when even newly promoted teams are throwing around 100 million in transfers

World Cup games aren’t really comparable IMO. Knockout games are never likely to be expansive and open because they’re knockout games that neither team wants to lose so they end up being pretty cagey a lot of the time.

 

[ErranMorad]

I'm not particularly against Jose but I think his tactics and style are outdated and ineffective. Granted he's not at antiquated as LVG and his methods but I think he's still trying to set us up like he did at Chelsea in '05 but football has moved on now.

Football hasn't moved anywhere. For vast majority of teams that is the style of play against tougher opponents. Jose won a title using similar tactics in 2014-15 and finished 2nd with us last season. Those tactics also got him a Europa league and league cup in the first season with us. Simeone has similar tactics and is largely successful at Atletico Madrid. France won a world cup using the same tactics only last month. Defensive tactics used to stop the opponent and then pounce on any mistake by them will never be outdated.

The problem is not that Jose's tactics are outdated or ineffective, it's that they are not suited for this football club. Like I said in another thread, big clubs such as Real, Barca, us and Bayern have a responsibility to both entertain and win at the same time. It's not a either or choice at these clubs. Style of football is as important as winning. Ethos of this club and Jose are not a good match for each other. We employed him in desperation after disastrous seasons under Moyes and Van Gaal. He has brought in some stability: the results of last two seasons are not bad in relative terms either. However, after two seasons people want to push on and are getting tired a bit of this underdog style of football. The progress in the playing style is not evident and there are discordant voices coming out of the club. Which has everyone on the edge a bit.

 

[CA_vampire]

France used the same tactics and won a World Cup.

Our main problem is that City has a better squad.



"Manchester City gave me a fantastic squad - Guardiola"

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/45073327

 

[Scroto Baggins]

If you are not going to back your coach, why hire him in the first place? Especially as you know how Jose operates, he looks to win trophies, you dont generally do that with recruits or 'investments', you do that with the finished product. Now that doesnt mean super stars in every position that cost hundreds of millions, but it does mean backing the coach on his targets.

I see this Toby for 60mil figure a lot, but Spurs wanted Martial, Mourinho was happy to move on players he didnt believe were part of his squad heading forward. Martial wanted to move on for game time, probably could have got Toby and 20mil from Spurs for Martial. So im assuming the board will look to move Jose on and keep their investments?

Did the board/investors at City turn around to Pep and say 'No we are not spending near 100mil on fullbacks', no, they backed him and made the funds available. I guess I just dont get this hiring of a manager then only partially backing him. And what is 'long term'? How is that defined? Toby is 29, say he plays until 33 at United, 4 years is not long term? Matic was certainly not a bad signing at 29.

Who comes in to replace Jose if he is moved on?

 

[Patrick08]

France used the same tactics and won a World Cup.

Our main problem is that City has a better squad.



"Manchester City gave me a fantastic squad - Guardiola"

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/45073327

Our problem is the combination of tactics and the squad which are not suitable to each other on what its been asked to do.It's not just the squad or not just the tactics.

 

[Dorian Gray]

Pereira, Lingard, Rashford, MacT, Pogba. That's 5 academy players Jose is playing.

Carrick is in management and could take over one day.

Director of Football about to be hired and this could transform United. Again thanks to Jose.

Searchlight now being thrown on the Blazers and Woodward. Again thanks to Jose.

Lukaku, Fred, Bailly, Lindelof, De Gea, Pogba, etc., a strong core for the team. Many thanks to Jose.

Back to the Champions League. Twice in a row now. Thanks to Jose.

After he has been sacked or fans push him out, I hope we will at least gov him some credit and remember him for some good. Right now, he seems like the worst thing to happen to United if the media and some fans are to be believed.

Quite a bit of sense but the bolded part is just
Also, how is the DoF signing due to Jose? Unless you mean that Jose's haphazard transfers and lack of philosphy have forced United to look for a DoF.

 

[Lennon7]

No no no no no

I'm no Mourinho fan but I really don't want us to take the rookie route.

I think Carrick would be an excellent manager in 3-5 years time. Would definitely be much better than Giggs, Gerrard and probably Lampard.