The Biden Presidency

[Beachryan]

He warned Israel not to make the same mistake though.

2 or 3k killed would be a 1:2 ratio. Israel always kills in a minimum 1:10 ratio.
A weekend is also impossible. It took them one weekend just to drive Hamas out of Israel. Their previous major bombings of Gaza have all lasted a month or more, usually timed around US elections (2009, 2012, 2014, etc). Obviously this time would be more.

I don't understand this line: " I honestly didn't think the Israeli's would allow the far-right elements to succeed in their dreams."
This government's actions in Gaza represent the centre of Israeli Jewish opinion. It matches the far-right, yes, but the country has been largely united in supporting the war effort. Bibi himself is by definition not a far-right figure, even if he has a few in his cabinet, his party is the centre-right of Israeli politics.

I had no doubt that Israel would get to about 15-20k deaths. Every US president would wholeheartedly support that. It's the continued support beyond these 10X thresholds that seems to be new - but is consistent with Biden's longstanding views towards this conflict. Of course, it's not totally "new" - the founding of Israel included the permanent cleansing of 750k people including the killing of 15k, so they have a lot of room for expansion in one aspect of their current operation.


Based on all this, and the very open statements from Biden and the Israeli govt, I am quite mystified at what you thought in October (at the end of which the death toll was already about 9000.

Obviously I meant right after October 7th. I guess that's fair w/r to the 1 to 10 ratio, but the previous situations had been 'smaller'.

I personally predicted that tens of thousands of Palestinians would be killed and Gaza flattened and possibly annexed. The latter still being on the cards. Also that Palestine would be on the map like never before and Hamas deliberately played the policy of the worst to push Israel right down the infamy road.

Not that I'm particularly smart or brilliant (although I am), but anyone who's familiar with this conflict saw it coming from miles away. Yet we still still have clever people who had played too much RTS games explaining how Khamas miscalculated and started a war it couldn't win.

Clearly your views are in line with what Hamas predicted. Therefore would you argue that this has been a success for Hamas? It's not a facetious question, I was arguing with my wife the other day that strategically they've actually played a blinder if you consider them willing to deal with this level of death and destruction to turn the world against Israel and elevate the issue to the forefront of geo-politics. I just don't understand the mindset where a 'good plan' can involve this much civilian death, but maybe in the course of history it will go down differently.

 

[berbatrick]

I just don't understand the mindset where a 'good plan' can involve this much civilian death, but maybe in the course of history it will go down differently.

I don't know if it's a good plan or not, but there is no, zero, zilch, other ways to a Palestinian state. The plan will fail 99.99%, and that will mean terrible suffering + no state, but the alternative is maybe slightly less suffering and no state, ever.

 

[Cal?]

Question for the biden voters, what would he need to do in terms of foreign policy that would make you not vote for him?

Let Xi invade Taiwan

 

[Idxomer]

These are generally pointless given that younger people notoriously vote less and the fighting will have likely been long done by November.

I don't think they are pointless. Young people helped Biden win in 2020 if I'm not mistaken.

My unqualified guess is that he hopes that a lot of independents who voted for Trump last time wouldn't this time and maybe some "moderate" Republicans.

 

[That_Bloke]

Clearly your views are in line with what Hamas predicted. Therefore would you argue that this has been a success for Hamas? It's not a facetious question, I was arguing with my wife the other day that strategically they've actually played a blinder if you consider them willing to deal with this level of death and destruction to turn the world against Israel and elevate the issue to the forefront of geo-politics. I just don't understand the mindset where a 'good plan' can involve this much civilian death, but maybe in the course of history it will go down differently.

Quite an interesting way to interpret my predictions.

It's been an enormous success in a particularly wicked way.Do not forget that beyond the horrible massacre of innocent Israeli civilians, it's been a historic blow to Israel's military might and its legendary intelligence agencies. Suddenly Israel doesn't seem that invincible anymore and that leaves marks for decades, if not centuries. The sheer rage and Israel's brutal response is a direct reaction to it.

For you to understand it, you have to put yourself in the mindset someone's who's been colonized, stolen from, brutalized, humiliated, oppressed their whole life and has absolutely nothing to lose. Hamas' goal was never to win but to survive, and it will survive one way or another. Just like Palestine. You can't kill an idea and there's never been a military solution to this kind of conflicts. A few centuries or millenia ago, sure, kill enough natives, steal enough land and get over with. Even then, chances were high that it would blow right in your face. But after WWII and the decolonization? Not a single chance in hell. Therein lies Palestine's only chance to survive.

However for it to work, you first have to inflict a massive shock to the (colonial) public opinion. Traumatize, enrage and radicalize them just like your own population and hope for the worst. All bridges are burned, no more status quo that saw Palestine being slowly eaten away and no turning back. Winning the war of opinions on the international scene is the only thing that matters, as a military victory is off the table. Two or three weeks after the 10/7 @2cents pointed me to the Phillipeville Massacre (1955) during Algeria's war of independence. It's one of the best analogies, along with Finkelstein's Nat Turner's slave rebellion.

It's an all or nothing gamble in a 75 years long colonial war. People often talk about existential threats to Israel, but the reality is that Palestinians actually were and still are in danger of being eradicated from the History books.

 

[Raoul]

I don't think they are pointless. Young people helped Biden win in 2020 if I'm not mistaken.

My unqualified guess is that he hopes that a lot of independents who voted for Trump last time wouldn't this time and maybe some "moderate" Republicans.

They turned out more last time than usual, but then again all other demographics did as well given that the Dems shattered the popular vote totals in 2020. Prior to that they were lowest percentage turnout demographics.

 

[maniak]

Do a u-turn on Ukraine support.

In this election? Not much. Launch nukes, start a war…. That’s about it. The domestic stakes are too high and I will be unashamedly selfish by prioritizing that.

Let Xi invade Taiwan

Thanks for replying. If you don't mind a follow up, what makes those red lines more "legitimate" (probably not the right word) than the red line of gaza in your view?

Because the argument that trump would be even worse for gazans seems to me also applies here. Would trump be better for ukraine? The guy loves putin. Would he be more capable of leading a country in a war or deal with the fallout of a nuclear strike? He's an incompetent buffoon. Would he be better for taiwanese? I don't think so.

So if biden crossed your personal red lines (stop help ukraine, start a war or abandon taiwan) wouldn't still be logical to vote for him anyway because trump would be even worse?

 

[WI_Red]

Thanks for replying. If you don't mind a follow up, what makes those red lines more "legitimate" (probably not the right word) than the red line of gaza in your view?

Because the argument that trump would be even worse for gazans seems to me also applies here. Would trump be better for ukraine? The guy loves putin. Would he be more capable of leading a country in a war or deal with the fallout of a nuclear strike? He's an incompetent buffoon. Would he be better for taiwanese? I don't think so.

So if biden crossed your personal red lines (stop help ukraine, start a war or abandon taiwan) wouldn't still be logical to vote for him anyway because trump would be even worse?

For me the red lines are ones the pose physical and immediate threats to my loved ones. I willingly admit that it is a selfish and unfair, but to say otherwise would be lying.

Trump and his cabal pose a real threat to Americas future as whatever kind of democracy we have. You may think this is hyperbole, but I ask you to research project 2025 before dismissing my concern.

So for me the only thing that is a red line is that which puts us in more danger than what Trump and co want to transform the us into.

 

[Raoul]

Thanks for replying. If you don't mind a follow up, what makes those red lines more "legitimate" (probably not the right word) than the red line of gaza in your view?

Because the argument that trump would be even worse for gazans seems to me also applies here. Would trump be better for ukraine? The guy loves putin. Would he be more capable of leading a country in a war or deal with the fallout of a nuclear strike? He's an incompetent buffoon. Would he be better for taiwanese? I don't think so.

So if biden crossed your personal red lines (stop help ukraine, start a war or abandon taiwan) wouldn't still be logical to vote for him anyway because trump would be even worse?

If Trump was the option, then I think that most would still vote for Biden if he crossed their red lines, even if they say they won't. Or at a minimum they would not bother voting. The unfortunate alternatives to not voting for Biden are a lunatic in Trump and a crackpot like RFK Jr., so when you look at all policies across the board - both foreign and domestic, then Biden is far and away the best option. Not an ideal situation, but certainly light years ahead of another Trump term.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

He warned Israel not to make the same mistake though.

I suspect he has a narrower view of what the mistakes were.

I bring up the war in Iraq because one of the reasons Clinton lost to Obama in 2008 was because of her vote for authorization of the war. The vote was in 2002 and the Democratic primaries were 5 years later. I'm sure she felt, in 2002, that she "had" to vote for it. But that's how political mistakes happen.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Question for the biden voters, what would he need to do in terms of foreign policy that would make you not vote for him?

In a primary, I would have voted against Biden in a heartbeat.

In the general against Trump? Probably not anything solely based on foreign policy tbh. I simply consider the domestic danger from a second Trump term plus the long-term consequences that would also affect the entire world to be too great. Part of that is also that I firmly believe Trump would absolutely worse on the foreign policy front so whether you are Palestinian or Ukrainian things aren't getting better under Trump.

 

[berbatrick]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I firmly believe Trump would absolutely worse on the foreign policy front so whether you are Palestinian or Ukrainian things aren't getting better under Trump.

Trump might be worse on foreign policy.

But if Trump were the President right now and things were playing out this way, I doubt Biden would say "that's just how I would have handled it." He'd claim it'd be different under him, and liberals would believe him.

 

[Cal?]

Thanks for replying. If you don't mind a follow up, what makes those red lines more "legitimate" (probably not the right word) than the red line of gaza in your view?

Because the argument that trump would be even worse for gazans seems to me also applies here. Would trump be better for ukraine? The guy loves putin. Would he be more capable of leading a country in a war or deal with the fallout of a nuclear strike? He's an incompetent buffoon. Would he be better for taiwanese? I don't think so.

So if biden crossed your personal red lines (stop help ukraine, start a war or abandon taiwan) wouldn't still be logical to vote for him anyway because trump would be even worse?

Actually, that's true, if the alternative is Trump, Biden could shoot someone on 5th Av and still get "my" vote.

(I don't actually get to vote, but have a few relatives in the US who always vote on my recommendation)

 

[maniak]

If Trump was the option, then I think that most would still vote for Biden if he crossed their red lines, even if they say they won't. Or at a minimum they would not bother voting. The unfortunate alternatives to not voting for Biden are a lunatic in Trump and a crackpot like RFK Jr., so when you look at all policies across the board - both foreign and domestic, then Biden is far and away the best option. Not an ideal situation, but certainly light years ahead of another Trump term.

So there are no red lines, is what you're saying.

 

[maniak]

For me the red lines are ones the pose physical and immediate threats to my loved ones. I willingly admit that it is a selfish and unfair, but to say otherwise would be lying.

Trump and his cabal pose a real threat to Americas future as whatever kind of democracy we have. You may think this is hyperbole, but I ask you to research project 2025 before dismissing my concern.

So for me the only thing that is a red line is that which puts us in more danger than what Trump and co want to transform the us into.

Fair enough, I can't separate foreign policy from domestic one like you do, but you're the one living there so who am I to judge.

As for project 2025, it sounds a bit weird that when biden wants to enact some policy like gun control or forgive student debt or climate change policies, it doesn't happen or happens with lots of limitations because he's limited by congress and a bunch of other laws, checks and balances etc. But trump would manage to turn the us into a dictatorship in 4 years, which is infinitely harder than what biden wants to do and he wouldn't have these limitations? I don't see how both can be true, either biden isn't really trying that hard or the trump dictator talk is just a right wing wet dream.

 

[maniak]

Actually, that's true, if the alternative is Trump, Biden could shoot someone on 5th Av and still get "my" vote.

(I don't actually get to vote, but have a few relatives in the US who always vote on my recommendation)

It's just weird how things change. 8 years ago if someone posted a clip on the caf with a red cap wearing cnut saying "trump can help kill every single palestinian in gaza and he would still get my vote" people would be horrified and everyone would point out how dangerous it would be to allow these lunatics to have power.

Yet, here we are. Biden is helping israel kill palestinians as they please and liberals will vote for him by the tens of millions.

 

[Raoul]

So there are no red lines, is what you're saying.

I included not voting for anyone as an option.

 

[Cal?]

It's just weird how things change. 8 years ago if someone posted a clip on the caf with a red cap wearing cnut saying "trump can help kill every single palestinian in gaza and he would still get my vote" people would be horrified and everyone would point out how dangerous it would be to allow these lunatics to have power.

Yet, here we are. Biden is helping israel kill palestinians as they please and liberals will vote for him by the tens of millions.

Priorities, firstly, I don't think Trump would be any better and likely even worse for Palestinians.

Secondly, I'm more concerned with Trump empowering Xi & Putin to invade their neighboring countries.

Thirdly, I generally agree with Dems on most domestic policies like aborton, student debt, taxes, etc.

 

[gajender]

It's just weird how things change. 8 years ago if someone posted a clip on the caf with a red cap wearing cnut saying "trump can help kill every single palestinian in gaza and he would still get my vote" people would be horrified and everyone would point out how dangerous it would be to allow these lunatics to have power.

Yet, here we are. Biden is helping israel kill palestinians as they please and liberals will vote for him by the tens of millions.

But most of them aren't Liberals they can pretend all they want they aren't much different to Maga crowd whom they so despise .

 

[maniak]

Priorities, firstly, I don't think Trump would be any better and likely even worse for Palestinians.

Secondly, I'm more concerned with Trump empowering Xi & Putin to invade their neighboring countries.

Thirdly, I generally agree with Dems on most domestic policies like aborton, student debt, taxes, etc.

I don't think trump would be better either, but I struggle to see what's worse than genocide. The palestine thread is a house of horrors, every time I open it it's worse and worse. Every day, for six months, with biden's support.

Russia invaded ukraine and biden was president.

I'll give you number 3.

 

[Sweet Square]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[berbatrick]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Remembering the 2020 campaign


‘Empathy matters’: Joe Biden’s endorsers highlight the same trait

Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and the Return of Empathy When America Needs It Most

News Analysis: Joe Biden doesn’t just feel your pain, he has lived it. Will that help him win?

How Empathy Defines Joe Biden'

The funny thing is these clowns were writing this drivel weeks after Biden literally said it would be an insult to the memory of his dead son to enact universal healthcare. That was what his empathy - he very literally connected this stance with the healthcare Beau received - had led him to.

 

[WI_Red]

Fair enough, I can't separate foreign policy from domestic one like you do, but you're the one living there so who am I to judge.

As for project 2025, it sounds a bit weird that when biden wants to enact some policy like gun control or forgive student debt or climate change policies, it doesn't happen or happens with lots of limitations because he's limited by congress and a bunch of other laws, checks and balances etc. But trump would manage to turn the us into a dictatorship in 4 years, which is infinitely harder than what biden wants to do and he wouldn't have these limitations? I don't see how both can be true, either biden isn't really trying that hard or the trump dictator talk is just a right wing wet dream.

Which demonstrates, and this is honestly not an attack on you, your lack of understanding of how our (the US) government functions. It is essentially a house of cards held together by the assumption that enough people in positions of power would stand up to attempts to collapse the house. The biggest part of that glue is SCOTUS, and that part is in the hands of MAGA now. The second biggest part is the impartiality of the civil service, which is why a big part of Project 2025 is removing civil service protections and making all agency positions political appointees. SCOTUS will likely make rulings this term that will begin this process. Finally, the Democrats are cowards.

 

[Pintu]

Obviously I meant right after October 7th. I guess that's fair w/r to the 1 to 10 ratio, but the previous situations had been 'smaller'.
Clearly your views are in line with what Hamas predicted. Therefore would you argue that this has been a success for Hamas? It's not a facetious question, I was arguing with my wife the other day that strategically they've actually played a blinder if you consider them willing to deal with this level of death and destruction to turn the world against Israel and elevate the issue to the forefront of geo-politics. I just don't understand the mindset where a 'good plan' can involve this much civilian death, but maybe in the course of history it will go down differently.

I don’t think it was their plan, but they were always expecting it’s going to take this much “sacrifice“ for the Palestinians to obtain their rights…A Hamas leader said it out loud and quite cynically back in October.

The whole 5 mns gives a good insight into their mindset, and particularly the part from 1:10 to 1:55…

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Cal?]

I don't think trump would be better either, but I struggle to see what's worse than genocide. The palestine thread is a house of horrors, every time I open it it's worse and worse. Every day, for six months, with biden's support.

Russia invaded ukraine and biden was president.

I'll give you number 3.

There's quicker genocide, but I agree the situation is bad.

Biden has at least got NATO in order and are aligned with most allies, unlike Trump who spent his time dismantling NATO and praising the likes of Putin, Xi & Kim.

It's the GOP House that's stopping the funding for Ukraine.

 

[Giggsyking]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

I think Kirby is the worst. Miller comes second. The rest is a tie.

 

[maniak]

Which demonstrates, and this is honestly not an attack on you, your lack of understanding of how our (the US) government functions. It is essentially a house of cards held together by the assumption that enough people in positions of power would stand up to attempts to collapse the house. The biggest part of that glue is SCOTUS, and that part is in the hands of MAGA now. The second biggest part is the impartiality of the civil service, which is why a big part of Project 2025 is removing civil service protections and making all agency positions political appointees. SCOTUS will likely make rulings this term that will begin this process. Finally, the Democrats are cowards.

If that's the case, then your days as a democracy are numbered regardless of the result of this election.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

If that's the case, then your days as a democracy are numbered regardless of the result of this election.

That's the main issue with arguments of pragmatism. There's never much of a long-term solution offered. Just a short-term course of action ('elect the Democrat') that is doomed to fail eventually, since Democrats will not win every single Presidential election.

Barack Obama said "if we're successful in this election, the fever may break." That was almost 12 years ago. Has the fever broken?

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Trump might be worse on foreign policy.

But if Trump were the President right now and things were playing out this way, I doubt Biden would say "that's just how I would have handled it." He'd claim it'd be different under him, and liberals would believe him.

Yeah, I think that's right. But the Dem base is very different than Reps so unfortunately it makes sense Biden would claim he'd handle differently.

 

[calodo2003]

That's the main issue with arguments of pragmatism. There's never much of a long-term solution offered. Just a short-term course of action ('elect the Democrat') that is doomed to fail eventually, since Democrats will not win every single Presidential election.

Barack Obama said "if we're successful in this election, the fever may break." That was almost 12 years ago. Has the fever broken?

Well, there's only been four years of bad fever since, we are now trying to keep it from recurring. So, it basically has.

And that is the long term solution that is being offered, the continuation of democracy. This time it falls on the Democratic party to do the heavy lifting.

 

[Pintu]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

I think Kirby is the worst. Miller comes second. The rest is a tie.

Kirby is in a league of his own:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Beachryan]

I think what many posters on here miss - for whatever reason - is that Gaza is 100% their most important issue, but it doesn't even make the top 5 of most American voters. One can be annoyed with that, but it doesn't change it. Immigration, the economy, crime, health-care, a functioning government - all of these are far more prominent in US voters' minds than the Gaza war.

The flip side of this is for many of us, the continuation of stability of the US is the most important issue. While the US is obviously and to me inexplicably not doing the right thing in Gaza, and has made too many mistakes to count on foreign policy through the years - actually having a strong, stable western power is absolutely fundamental to geopolitics, and has been for two generations. Particularly one that aligns with Europe. I get pretty frustrated with the view that because the US - again - has and is making mistakes that getting rid of it would improve things. You want to cede power to China, Russia and Iran? You want to see what Nato looks like without the US military? What global shipping looks like without the US Navy?

Electing Donald Trump would be an absolute catastrophe for the entire world, including Gaza. It would further empower the idiocracy, corruption and facism that is on the rise. It would make the world less safe for all of our children, and I'm lucky as I don't have any daughters. He doesn't care about climate change, he doesn't care about education, he doesn't care about anything beyond whatever lobbyist is buttering him up that afternoon.

I've long since given up trying to understand why Biden's advisors and confidants can't get through to him on this one. Maybe it's because he was brought up at a time much closer to the holocaust, I've no idea. If it were me, he'd stopped funding to Israel and worked to push for Israeli voters to get a chance to vote out Netanyahu. He'd be helping with aid, funding agencies and so forth. If his decision here ends up bringing about a second Trump term, than I hope his legacy is ruined by it.

But that doesn't mean those who can shouldn't be doing all they can to avoid it.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I'm pretty sure everyone here is aware that Gaza is not the most important issue for Americans.

actually having a strong, stable western power is absolutely fundamental to geopolitics, and has been for two generations

That's an argument against Biden. His administration does not look strong. They look weak.

 

[africanspur]

I think what many posters on here miss - for whatever reason - is that Gaza is 100% their most important issue, but it doesn't even make the top 5 of most American voters. One can be annoyed with that, but it doesn't change it. Immigration, the economy, crime, health-care, a functioning government - all of these are far more prominent in US voters' minds than the Gaza war.

I think nobody misses this fact. A reasonable number of people even get why Americans on here are so terrified of Trump that they will vote for Biden almost regardless of what happens in any policy area. And a few have even confirmed that there are no foreign policy red lines, so their positions are at least consistent.

I think most of the chat now is to push back on those who sneer at others who do have foreign policy red lines, as well as pushing back on some of the rhetoric, especially early on, about how Biden is doing this only because of political considerations or that things would be sooo much worse under Trump (in this particular issue).

Make no mistake, this is a deeply ideological issue for Biden and he has gone way above and beyond. He is not doing this because of political fear but because he truly believes in it.

Some of the Trump is worse stuff I could get earlier on but not sure how much worse it could actually get at this point, beyond either American boots on the ground or an active push for Israel to annex. Thing is, Biden would probably publicly denounce it, give some hard talk about how angry he is with Bibi and then immediately authorise another arms sale.

 

[syrian_scholes]

I'm pretty sure everyone here is aware that Gaza is not the most important issue for Americans.



That's an argument against Biden. His administration does not look strong. They look weak.

Are you sure? We need more posts that mention this to get the point across while also mentioning how sympathetic they are eventhough it's more in a "too bad" way.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The problem with Israel/Gaza is that it's not an isolated issue that bears no relationship to anything else.

Part of Biden's appeal was that he was a seasoned pro who knew how things worked and would return order and stability after the chaos of the Trump years.

You look at the way Israel/Gaza conflict has unfolded, and it undermines this argument. There is no order, no stability. The administration looks weak and ineffectual.

 

[maniak]

The problem with Israel/Gaza is that it's not an isolated issue that bears no relationship to anything else.

Part of Biden's appeal was that he was a seasoned pro who knew how things worked and would return order and stability after the chaos of the Trump years.

You look at the way Israel/Gaza conflict has unfolded, and it undermines this argument. There is no order, no stability. The administration looks weak and ineffectual.

Add afghanistan to that, it was a complete shitshow.

 

[Mike Smalling]

The problem with Israel/Gaza is that it's not an isolated issue that bears no relationship to anything else.

Part of Biden's appeal was that he was a seasoned pro who knew how things worked and would return order and stability after the chaos of the Trump years.

You look at the way Israel/Gaza conflict has unfolded, and it undermines this argument. There is no order, no stability. The administration looks weak and ineffectual.

I'd say the Gaza situation is just as much a result of ideology as incompetence Biden. He ends up looking weak, because he is not interested in being hard on Israel. It wouldn't be hard at all to block the military aid he is giving them, he just doesn't want to. He is a self-described Zionist, and with decades of staunch Israel support he can't come to terms with the fact that it's now run by a far-right murderous regime that needs to be curtailed. Or at least it's taking him way too long to get there.

 

[berbatrick]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

shock horror the guy whose actions and words have blatantly shown his racism, now shows in another way that he is racist