The Culture Wars
- Thread starter DOTA
- Start date
YIKES
You do realize that this is the Culture Wars thread right? What do you think such rhetoric about white people will do? Not inflame the culture war?
You’re conveniently ignoring how such accounts eventually lead to white supremacy related nonsense. Accounts like that serve no other purpose but here you are digging further and further into the abyss.
You honestly make me wonder what it would take for you to just say "and by the way, her generalization about white people is unhealthy and would be bad about any other group too". But I think it's clear you see it fundamentally different than I do.
She isn’t generalizing about white people though. This is where you’re wrong. As @Cheimoon pointed it out, she is talking about whiteness in the context of power, colonialism, and how often it is viewed as the only way forward. When in reality, other cultures have long existed before that. The only unhealthy thing here is idiots uploading such videos and people running with them as if they are sound arguments.
Hmmm not generalizing about white people "I think white people are comitted to be being villains in the aggregate".
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And who exactly is disputing this? We are all aware that other cultures existed in areas where white people arrived. And we're also aware that white people took over by violent means. But this isn't new information.
Yeah I was being polite. The article isn't well structured, it just jumps into that quote context-free.
You’re skipping over the bit where you assume she is talking about every white person to ever exist in a literal sense. When in reality, that isn’t what she meant at all.
She could have avoided that misunderstanding if instead of saying "white people" and "white humans" if she instead said "white supremacists"
In general (on average), women and men are behaviourly different in some ways; and in general, women in top positions tend to be more like men behaviourally. That's all I wanted to say for the example. Are you disputing that?
You are definitely taking the discussion into the example though. But I'm happy to leave it there for the rest.
The discussion was specifically about the use of the word '(political) whiteness' in the US. It's a bit of a generalization already, I'm not going to generalize that internationally. (It wasn't my point here, I probably don't know enough about it - and I don't have the time for that much discussion.
)I agree that class is fundamentally important and not mentioned nearly enough these days. (Especially by leftists.) You can't really see those things separately though. And either way, 'whiteness' is just being used here as shorthand to refer to the dominant thinking/narrative of those in power. It's not about being white literally.
The video clearly cuts various times. I would not want to discuss it until I've seen a full version, including her discussants comments.
(In case this is confusing: I have not been discussing the video, just been following up on the discussion on Harris and 'whiteness' that I think @entropy started.)
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Time to delete the ole and Pogba threads and the united forum thread in the general!
Don't really feel this is good. People's milage of what is offensive is subjective and so are peoples sensitivity. I agree that online bullying is a problem, but i'm not sure this is the way to go.
Who could have predicted this?
Media and politicians very deliberately spent two years manufacturing
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If the punishment is that they have their account closed, get given a virgin one, and have their name logged As going too far one time, it’s no big deal.
10,000 people across the Uk (or the globe) thinking Pogba had a bad game… that’s ok.
Allow those 10,000 people to agree online, comment, then all compete to say the worst thing… always ends badly with no positive input to society. In the end those threads end with the same 50 people going full racist.
But. We have created systems and spaces for these attitudes and opinions to foment. We give these vile cretins the erroneous validation that they’re normal. They’re not. They’re the worst of us.
Think about it. We have made this new thing that allows the worst of all of us, and CRUCIALLY, The worst moments of even the best of us, to come together and pretend we’re enlightened and correct.
In the real world you have to hunt high and low to find someone at random to support something vile. So why do we allow online spaces to act in isolation. They don’t even have to operate in the shadows.
If I go online and abuse someone along with 100,000 people and that person commits suicide, I have contributed to that. That’s beyond argument. If I chime in with 1,000,000 with casual racism, I’m committing what should be treated as a crime.
We are nowhere near solving this problem. I have zero quarrel with you. But offense Is not subjective. There are lines. We all know it. We have to be FORCED to be better. To bring that boundary of what’s acceptable far closer to our own toes.
I think the advent of the social media and the internet definitely poses challenges to free speech that we have never seen before. I just don't feel it's clear cut. The whole article is behind a paywall so I wasn't able to read all of it. I can just think of many instances where people are offended, but it doesn't warrant punishment by the law. I frankly think better moderation on social media makes more sense than being able to sentence people up to 2 years in prision. I suffer from pretty severe chronic depression myself on top of other chronic health problems, but the last thing I'd want is to tell people not to offend me otherwise they can be punished by the law. But like I said I think all of this in the context of social media is really complicated. I'd rather that people are booted off platforms rather than face a prison sentence.
You’re treating this as binary. No need.
Should I be allowed to keep a social media account if I join a pile on directed at you and you hurt yourself?
The laws should be crafter to turn down bad behaviour and amplify good behaviour. It’s not censorship. Don’t be gaslit into believing this free speech bullshit.
I’ve been down and out before. Depressed. Medicated. The world shouldn’t have shrunk to fit my outlook. BUT; if I was depressed as I couldn’t come out, or my classmates were bullying me as I was the only Asian in Class, or someone published nude photos of me… every single one of the people that DELIBERATELY made that worse, should face justice.
Nobody will go to jail for two years. It ain’t happening. The scene in between is what matters. Classes. Awareness.
We need to draft legislation that sees all of us look after each other. The opposite of that is a culture war.
Well if we're not talking jail it's a different conversation. Still a lot of this is hard to implement. Like it can be difficult for the prosecution to prove that it was actually you bullying someone from your account. The police will instantly drop a case where they know they can't prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was you/we who did the bullying. I still think some of this is somewhat subjective. If you're hurling racial slurs that's blatanty racist(unless you're black and you're allowed to use the n word about other black people) however there are some who instantly assume you're racist if you pile on to a black player like Rashford or Pogba. There could other examples in the whole transdebate. Some transgender people would find it grossly offensive to say that transwomen aren't actually women, but men who identify as women. Should something like that become illegal by law as well? And on top of that you can have politicians playing for the gallery wanting their critics to be punished. I think some of this poses a conundrum.
Where do you guys find these videos? At least that channel is less obviously run by white supremacist, but that's a low standard.
Mate, I think I ignore more people on here than any other member. You’re probably going in that bucket.
You’re doing surgical shit with a shotgun and wondering why the outcomes aren’t good.
Depressed people are devoid of personal power. Trans people are devoid of impactful power. Black people are devoid of structural power. That all sucks.
But you’ve got to step back.
Should we encourage people to be good to each other? Yes. Unarguable. Should we attempt to create power structures that encourage that behaviour? Of course!
Should we encourage people to be nasty and inflammatory to each other? No! Unarguable. Should we attempt to create power structures that discourage that behaviour? Or course!
It’s that simple. Don’t look at headlines and legislation and punitive limits like jail terms.
Our power structures should endorse me for supporting you when you’re in need. They should punish me for denigrating you at every single turn.
There is a baseline of good behaviour that we should all uphold. The cost is zero. The benefit is immeasurable. The downside is zero. Why are we not shaping the world to ensure the best outcomes?
The answer is it generates less money right now. Turning the tide will cost money. That’s it. Even if the other side has u told riches, people cannot give up money now for a social good.
Thats all I’ve got. Don’t vote Tory.
It was kind of shared as a meme on twitter on how CRT manifests in reality.
Could you copy/paste the article since it's behind a paywall? PM me it maybe. It's kind of hard to digest the rammifications of it without being able to read it in it's entirety.
Oh ffs. Critical Race Theory is an absolute nonsense. If you’ve willingly swallowed the hook I can’t even try to explain why you’re in a boat and not the ocean.
Delete all your cookies. Read better news sources.
Scene on Radio had a whole season devoted to being white. It's very much worth a listen. It's called "Seeing White" I think.
I think we completely disagree about what the goverments role and power should be in this. I'm half-english, but I'm not a UK citizen so I don't have a vote in England.
By all means tell me what you think the Govt role should be. We may agree.
I just don’t see how there’s room for argument on the topic of rewarding (or discouraging) good behaviour and punishing (or discouraging) bad.
We may draw different lines in the sand, but the start line should be the same.
Now I understand the previous posts.
Edit: It's his Youtube user, put it in a spoiler becauser his username is basically the n-word. Interesting list of videos.
Could you copy/paste me the full article?
I have no shame in admitting that I check right-leaning subs on Reddit to see what they're thinking and what the next outrage is. It's a guilty pleasure in the same way I can enjoy Bill Mahers New Rule rants on wokeness.
But I'm also not going to beat around the bush: those subs tend to be the only subs on Reddit that also post such videos.
( I don't have a twitter account)
If you know left-leaning subs that discuss such videos + rhetoric about white people amongst other content, feel free to share them. Unfortunately the 'left' side in the US has some disturbing rhetoric of its own, but obviously not the same extent as the right.
With that being said, what do you think of that particular video?
The protectionism of white people is mad. (I’m white). I’ve heard intelligent white Europeans talk about white South African farmers As evidencing example of all manner of things.
It’s mad. I’m a white council estate kid that has somehow thrived in a capitalist society. I’m also smart/humble enough to accept that I ‘beat’ middle class white kids to my rung on the ladder, but I could coast against people of a different hue and still stay ahead.
That’s post game analysis. At 8-22 I didn’t even know I was running a race, far less a handicap race.
I buy a house. An Armenian plasters my walls. A German runs the electrics. A Polish fella does the plumbing. All of those people are white to me. They don’t think they’re the same as me. Yet a Nigerian drives me home, a Ghanaian guy draws up plans for an extension and a pair of Somalians come and take all the copper away after knocking on the door and those three are all ‘Black’ in their head, and to society.
Race is really fecking complicated but the only people making it worse are almost exclusively rich and white. We are all allowed to criticise the system but the point of a culture war is that it keeps us in our lanes, fighting each other. For no damn reason.
No. You don’t need it. It’s The Times. It’s The Sun in Manolos and make up.
My questions exist outside of that article.
I would actually feel more informed if I had the full article.
About time!
I didn't watch it, I don't want to give that channel more views (or ruin my YouTube algorithm because I'm too lazy to log out). I can't speak to the video itself then, obviously, but I will say that if the only ones posting something is KiA or conspiracy or one of the even worse ones, that's a solid indication that you're not getting the context at a minimum.
My comments were not about the article. I don’t really give a poop if you think something written in The Times would help you speak to me about wider society. They are a middle class cancer.
Declaring “All white people are racist” is racist.
I don’t know who she is. I doubt she’s a thought leader. But she sounds like an idiot and probably is.
That statement has as much value as any white supremecist shite that the KKK kick out.
Irrespective of that, I don’t believe that the majority of black people believe that the majority of white people are any more racist that the majority of black people are.
The problem is power and not skin colour.
What possible context for you would justify saying things like "all white people are racist"? What an odd take nimic, it really isn't hard to just say yeah it's bad what she says but stay away from those terrible subs.
I don't think the posters in here are aware about how much power @Fearless will wield now. All Hectic has to do is share his PM messages.
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Well I said exactly that and you ignored it.What possible context for you would justify saying things like "all white people are racist"? What an odd take nimic, it really isn't hard to just say yeah it's bad what she says but stay away from those terrible subs.
So maybe the question is “Why do I try to argue with people rather than have reasonable discussions with people that meet me halfway”