The Double Draft

[Chesterlestreet]

Yeah I don't think he's as good as he will become currently, that alone doesn't make him a weakness though but I think that view is part of the problem. It's well known players are appreciated more when they retire so arguing for someone that hasn't even hit peak yet is even harder.

It's hardly a controversial view, though, is it? Whether your man was born in 1900 or 1995, he will presumably be a better asset the more complete he is.

If you were talking about a player who is currently at the height of his powers, you'd have a point - he could stand in danger of being underrated when compared to someone who hung up his boots decades ago. Pogba is a different kettle of fish, though.

It's an interesting enough debate, and I'm glad we get some proper diversity when it comes to how people regard players (and eras) - but, yeah - to be continued in a more appropriate context.

 

[P-Nut]

Just a quick aside, if a player has shown already he can perform to a certain level then he's good enough. Regardless of if he will become better that isn't a detracting factor. You should be judging on how good his peak has been the same for every player. If his peak is good enough it's good enough.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I don't think anyone will disagree with that. The peak better be damn good, though, if he's to mix it up with the big boys in an all-time draft.

Let's not forget that this isn't about "new" or "current" against "old", as if the latter were a category you can compare with the former on equal terms: You simply can't, because it's a much bigger pool of players, spanning more than half a century if we begin with the proper TV era (where there's considerable amounts of footage). So, a currently active player isn't up against a homogeneous pool of "old" players, but rather against the greats of various different epochs, from Di Stefano to someone who retired just a couple of years ago.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Just a quick aside, if a player has shown already he can perform to a certain level then he's good enough. Regardless of if he will become better that isn't a detracting factor. You should be judging on how good his peak has been the same for every player. If his peak is good enough it's good enough.

I agree with you but the problem is, for me and i assume for big majority here his "current" peak isnt good enough for this level. The only "current" midfielder that goes into GOAT level is Busquets and he is miles ahead of Pogba. Currently there is a lack of quality in midfield section(few greats that are past their best but still playing - Schweini, Iniesta, Pirlo) and the new crop that didnt yet reached their heights.
Look at Kroos for example, he did more then Pogba in his career, you can argue that his current peak is higher then Pogba's and even he is nowhere near this level.

 

[P-Nut]

I agree with you but the problem is, for me and i assume for big majority here his "current" peak isnt good enough for this level. The only "current" midfielder that goes into GOAT level is Busquets and he is miles ahead of Pogba. Currently there is a lack of quality in midfield section(few greats that are past their best but still playing - Schweini, Iniesta, Pirlo) and the new crop that didnt yet reached their heights.
Look at Kroos for example, he did more then Pogba in his career, you can argue that his current peak is higher then Pogba's and even he is nowhere near this level.

I actually agree that Pogba isn't on Kroos' level. However this is certainly one for the match thread as with a specific job I believe he can definitely match it with the big boys and better than most of the alternatives apart from Matthäus and Keane (in this specific pool)

 

[harms]

It really comes to your judgement - if you believe that there aren't a few dozens of midfielders that were better than he currently is in an all-time pool then you should pick him. He is going to become the most expensive player in history after all (hopefully), and it's arguable how much is being paid for his potential and marketing value and how much for the player he already is.

If you're going to use him, you better have a big explanation post ready though as I don't think that many will share your point of view

 

[P-Nut]

It really comes to your judgement - if you believe that there aren't a few dozens of midfielders that were better than he currently is in an all-time pool then you should pick him. He is going to become the most expensive player in history after all (hopefully), and it's arguable how much is being paid for his potential and marketing value and how much for the player he already is.

If you're going to use him, you better have a big explanation post ready though as I don't think that many will share your point of view

Yeah I'm prepared for that. Should be fun to argue the point though, seriously think at least a couple of people will get my reasoning and understand why he's perfect.

 

[P-Nut]

Desailly - Raees - 12:19 - 30m
Keane - P-Nut0712 - 15:54 - 25m
G. Müller - Chester - 17:01 - 25m
Matthäus - Downcast - 17:17 - 37m
P. R. Falcão - Chester - 18:38 - 25m
Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Cruyff - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m

Thought I'd repost this after all that discussion.

 

[harms]

Desailly - Raees - 12:19 - 30m
Keane - P-Nut0712 - 15:54 - 25m
G. Müller - Chester - 17:01 - 25m
Matthäus - Downcast - 17:17 - 37m
P. R. Falcão - Chester - 18:38 - 25m
Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Cruyff - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
van Basten - harms - 23:43 - 15m

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Pogba.......Pogba?

 

[Raees]

Desailly - Raees - 12:19 - 30m
Keane - P-Nut0712 - 15:54 - 25m
G. Müller - Chester - 17:01 - 25m
Matthäus - Downcast - 17:17 - 37m
P. R. Falcão - Chester - 18:38 - 25m
Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Cruyff - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
van Basten - Raees - 00:35 - 18m

@harms

 

[Skizzo]

Desailly - Raees - 12:19 - 30m
Keane - P-Nut0712 - 15:54 - 25m
G. Müller - Chester - 17:01 - 25m
Matthäus - Downcast - 17:17 - 37m
P. R. Falcão - Chester - 18:38 - 25m
Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
van Basten - Raees - 00:35 - 18m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m

@Invictus

 

[Invictus]

Noo! Johan... Was fun while it lasted.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Desailly - Raees - 12:19 - 30m
Keane - P-Nut0712 - 15:54 - 25m
G. Müller - Chester - 17:01 - 25m
Matthäus - Downcast - 17:17 - 37m
P. R. Falcão - Chester - 18:38 - 25m
Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
van Basten - Raees - 00:35 - 18m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
Hierro - Skizzo/Pat - 05:02 - 12m

@P-Nut0712

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Desailly - Raees - 12:19 - 30m
Keane - P-Nut0712 - 15:54 - 25m
G. Müller - Chester - 17:01 - 25m
Matthäus - Downcast - 17:17 - 37m
P. R. Falcão - Chester - 18:38 - 25m
Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
van Basten - Raees - 00:35 - 18m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
Hierro - Skizzo/Pat - 05:02 - 12m


Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthaus (37m)

 

[harms]

P. R. Falcão - Chester - 18:38 - 25m
Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
Hierro - Skizzo/Pat - 05:02 - 12m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m

@Raees

 

[harms]

Falcao for 25 and Di Stefano for 24? Come on!

 

[P-Nut]

P. R. Falcão - Chester - 18:38 - 25m
Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m

@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard

 

[Skizzo]

P. R. Falcão - Chester - 18:38 - 25m
Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 07:12 - 10m
C. Ronaldo - Skizzo/Pat - 07:12 - 10m

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 07:12 - 10m
C. Ronaldo - Skizzo/Pat - 07:12 - 10m
G. Facchetti - Chester - 07:39 - 20m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)

 

[Enigma_87]

Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 07:12 - 10m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 07:45 - 12m
G. Facchetti - Enigma - 07:45- 22m

@Skizzo @Chesterlestreet @Pat_Mustard

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 07:12 - 10m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 07:45 - 12m
G. Facchetti - Enigma - 07:45- 22m
N. Santos - Chester - 07:59 - 20m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 07:12 - 10m
G. Facchetti - Enigma - 07:45- 22m
N. Santos - Chester - 07:59 - 20m
C. Ronaldo - Skizzo/Pat - 08:02 - 15m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)

@Enigma_87

 

[Raees]

Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 07:12 - 10m
G. Facchetti - Enigma - 07:45- 22m
N. Santos - Chester - 07:59 - 20m
C. Ronaldo - Skizzo/Pat - 08:02 - 15m
Romario - Raees - 08:11 - 20m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)

@Enigma_87[/QUOTE]

 

[Enigma_87]

Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
G. Facchetti - Enigma - 07:45- 22m
N. Santos - Chester - 07:59 - 20m
C. Ronaldo - Skizzo/Pat - 08:02 - 15m
Romario - Raees - 08:11 - 20m
Passarella - Enigma - 08:12 - 15m

@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)

 

[Enigma_87]

Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
G. Facchetti - Enigma - 07:45- 22m
N. Santos - Chester - 07:59 - 20m
Romario - Raees - 08:11 - 20m
Passarella - Enigma - 08:12 - 15m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 09:55 - 18m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)

whoops, forgot Ronaldo

@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard

 

[Ecstatic]

Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
G. Facchetti - Enigma - 07:45- 22m
N. Santos - Chester - 07:59 - 20m
Passarella - Enigma - 08:12 - 15m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 09:55 - 18m
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m

@Raees

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Maldini - harms - 20:08 - 30m
Di Stefano - Invictus - 20:52 - 24m
Pogba - P-Nut0712 - 21:05 - 10m
Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
G. Facchetti - Enigma - 07:45- 22m
N. Santos - Chester - 07:59 - 20m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 09:55 - 18m
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 09:15 - 17m

@Enigma_87

 

[Gio]

Di Stefano for 24 is a snip.

 

[harms]

Di Stefano for 24 is a snip.

It's a disgrace! Same with Cruyff. With Keane going for 25

 

[Enigma_87]

I was hoping Passarella would fly under the radar, the pool for CB/sweepers in all time context is a bit shore.

Di Stefano for 24 is a snip.

Aye, but couldn't bother continue with it. He's perfect for Invictus and on second thought I guess there would have been a lot of "ego" concerns if I fielded him with Pele in the same team.

 

[Ecstatic]

Di Stefano for 24 is a snip.

Yeah, great upgrade for @Invictus

 

[harms]

Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
G. Facchetti - Enigma - 07:45- 22m
N. Santos - Chester - 07:59 - 20m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 09:55 - 18m
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 09:15 - 17m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)

 

[Chesterlestreet]

It's not really about pure upgrades at this stage. Di Stefano would be an upgrade on anyone, practically. The question is to what extent you have to alter your approach in order to accomodate him. Fielding someone like him could plausibly mean that some other big shot will have to play a less than ideal role, which may not be worth it.

Supply and demand. It's not more complicated than that. People obviously don't think Keano is the better player.

 

[Ecstatic]

It's not really about pure upgrades at this stage. Di Stefano would be an upgrade on anyone, practically. The question is to what extent you have to alter your approach in order to accomodate him. Fielding someone like him could plausibly mean that some other big shot will have to play a less than ideal role, which may not be worth it.

Supply and demand. It's not more complicated than that. People obviously don't think Keano is the better player.

Agreed. I've used the term 'upgrade' because I guess Di Stefano will replace Rivera for the #10 position.

 

[Gio]

It's not really about pure upgrades at this stage. Di Stefano would be an upgrade on anyone, practically. The question is to what extent you have to alter your approach in order to accomodate him. Fielding someone like him could plausibly mean that some other big shot will have to play a less than ideal role, which may not be worth it.

Supply and demand. It's not more complicated than that. People obviously don't think Keano is the better player.

Aye, there was always going to be bargains to be had at this stage of an auction draft given the varying needs in the market. Same in reverse for Lothar.

 

[Enigma_87]

It's not really about pure upgrades at this stage. Di Stefano would be an upgrade on anyone, practically. The question is to what extent you have to alter your approach in order to accomodate him. Fielding someone like him could plausibly mean that some other big shot will have to play a less than ideal role, which may not be worth it.

Supply and demand. It's not more complicated than that. People obviously don't think Keano is the better player.

Well, Invictus had Rivera there and with a striker in Riva IMO is a better fit for Di Stefano to accommodate him, than someone like Cruyff or Pele that are dropping deep or someone like Maradona/Platini in front of him. Wanted to play him in front of 2 hardworking midfielders in Seedorf/Tigana, which IMO would work pretty well as he needs workhorses and space to drive forward. Couldn't go all out on him tho as the risk of being seen "unfit" for that formation was not worth it.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'm reminded of the all-time S-America versus Europe discussion we had a while back. Consensus was pretty much that you can only field one out of Di Stefano, Pelé, Maradona and Messi if you don't want to compromise the balance.

Personally I think you can get away with Pelé and Messi in the same team, since Messi can be played in a wide-ish role - and neither of them are textbook playmakers (or, even more crucially, field commanders to the extent of the other two).

 

[harms]

I'm reminded of the all-time S-America versus Europe discussion we had a while back. Consensus was pretty much that you can only field one out of Di Stefano, Pelé, Maradona and Messi if you don't want to compromise the balance.

Personally I think you can get away with Pelé and Messi in the same team, since Messi can be played in a wide-ish role - and neither of them are textbook playmakers (or, even more crucially, field commanders to the extent of the other two).

Yeah, never wanted Di Stefano despite nominating him - just hoped to start a bidding war. 4m increase in value, total success

 

[Enigma_87]

Cruyff - Skizzo/Pat - 00:58 - 26m
van Basten - harms - 06:12 - 20m
Hierro - P-Nut0712 - 06:39 - 14m
G. Facchetti - Enigma - 07:45- 22m
N. Santos - Chester - 07:59 - 20m
C. Ronaldo - Enigma - 08:55 - 18m
Romario - Downcast - 08:58 - 23m
Passarella - Skizzo/Pat - 09:15 - 17m

Confirmed:

Raees: 1) Desailly (30m)
P-Nut: 1) Keane (25m) 2) Pogba (10m)
Chester: 1) G. Muller (25m) 2) Falcão (25m)
Downcast: 1) Matthäus (37m)
harms: 1) Maldini (30m)
Invictus: 1) Di Stefano (24m)

Updated list.