@Downcast Saturday works for me too. I'll be around for some of it, but it sounds like @Pat_Mustard will be around too anyway 
The Double Draft
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
I can't really do Sunday so would be better on Tuesday for me.
@Edgar Allan Pillow Tuesday for me v. Invictus
Good. Let's start tomorrow after 10 pm BST!@Downcast Saturday works for me too. I'll be around for some of it, but it sounds like @Pat_Mustard will be around too anyway
Random question.. just for fellow drafters but do you rate Brazil 58 or Brazil 70 higher. Just watching an interview with Pele and he rates the 1958 team higher.. your thoughts?
For me, it's 1970 - I haven't seen more dominant team, domestically or internationally.
1958 is arguably stronger on paper though, with the likes of Nilton and Djalma, Garrincha, Didi, Zito being among the best ever at their position (while Rivelino, Gerson and others come a little short when being compared to the very very best). But as a team I prefer 1970.
@Pat_Mustard @Skizzo
Areola will play tomorrow with PSG against Lyon for the 1st official game of the season
FYI, Areola is likely to be the GK #1 and Raiola wants to be his agent.
But he isn't ready to play against Cruyff & co
Areola will play tomorrow with PSG against Lyon for the 1st official game of the season
FYI, Areola is likely to be the GK #1 and Raiola wants to be his agent.
But he isn't ready to play against Cruyff & co
Oh! This is a question for Russian posters...and Ronaldo!
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/wo...elecao-mythical-1970-squad.html#ixzz4GRdelQpm
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Individually for me is 1958. Garrincha, Pele, Santos x2, Didi. All edge their counterparts with probabl Pele being the exception. Pele's had a different role in those two teams so it's hard to say but probably all things considered he's better in that 1970 team - more of a creator, more mature.
As a team tho - Brazil 1970. On paper that 1970 team wouldn't even work with 4 number 10s on the pitch yet they played some of the best free flowing football I've seen. Was a great mixture and surely tough to replicate again.
It was 4-2-4 alright but Pele and Rivelino helped the midfield a lot, like 4-4-2 at times and Rivelino mostly as a left midfielder than a winger.
As far as domination goes that Brazil 1958 also dominated the WC, beating some excellent sides on the way - Soviet Union, France and Sweden - convincingly.
Another interview I read.. described the 1970 side as a 4-5-1 formation. Tostao said their tactic was to leave him alone when defending and then spring to life on the ball.. but thats a separate topic.
I personally love the 58 side because it looks so damn dynamic but will watch full games of both tournaments before making a proper judgement. I also prefer 58 Pele over the slower wiser 70 Pele but its a shame he never really starred at the world cup in his true pomp because of injuries.
I personally love the 58 side because it looks so damn dynamic but will watch full games of both tournaments before making a proper judgement. I also prefer 58 Pele over the slower wiser 70 Pele but its a shame he never really starred at the world cup in his true pomp because of injuries.
The interesting topic is how high 1950 team should be in the all-time Brazil squads list.
They will always be remembered as the ultimate bottlers but they scored average 3,6 goals per game
and Zizinho with Ademir were mindblowing from what we know
They will always be remembered as the ultimate bottlers but they scored average 3,6 goals per game
and Zizinho with Ademir were mindblowing from what we knowaye, it's a pity.
^^ highlights of Pele closer to his pump in 1962 Intercontinental cup - Benfica defended the EC two years in a row defeating Real and Barca in succession with Eusebio, Coluna, Germano and Santana in the team.
Santos beat them 3:2 and 5:2 over two legs the above being away at Benfica. Pele scored 5 goals in those games and set up another one.
Brazil 1962 was not too shabby either, pity Pele was injured after the first game, but the core of the team was the same albeit more experienced and little older. Zagallo, Didi, Nilton Santos, Djalma Santos were in their 30's but Zito, Vava, Garrincha probably at their peak. From memory I think they only drew one game and won them all to the title.
Games between them and the Czech and the hosts Chile were excellent I think they are up on youtube as well.
Have the QF games started already? Maybe I've missed them?
Nope think the first is planned in for tomorrow
Oh, I mixed up the dates
Yugoslavia with Beara, Vukas, Cajkovski and Branco Stankovic
Spain with Zarra and Eizaguirre (who beat England with Finney, Matthews, Wright etc)
Sweden was pretty strong back then
Not the most challenging path, but I can't say that it was a walkover
QF Match-up's
Sat, 06/Aug - Downcast vs Skizzo/pat
Sun, 07/Aug - Raees vs Chester
Mon, 08/Aug -
Tue, 09/Aug - Invictus vs P-Nut
Wed, 10/Aug - harms vs Enigma
Thu, 11/Aug
Lads, I'll be on a all day hiking trip tomorrow. Please send to any available neutral to start off the match. Still add me to the tactics convo.
Sat, 06/Aug - Downcast vs Skizzo/pat
Sun, 07/Aug - Raees vs Chester
Mon, 08/Aug -
Tue, 09/Aug - Invictus vs P-Nut
Wed, 10/Aug - harms vs Enigma
Thu, 11/Aug
Lads, I'll be on a all day hiking trip tomorrow. Please send to any available neutral to start off the match. Still add me to the tactics convo.
I'll be here if you need someone to start the matchday thread/set up the poll.
@Downcast
@Skizzo
@Pat_Mustard
@Edgar Allan Pillow
@Downcast
@Skizzo
@Pat_Mustard
@Edgar Allan Pillow
Thanks @Invictus
Tostão the visionary - Brazil's False 9
nutmegging Bobby Moore to create Jairzinho's goal in 1970
INTERVIEW/ARTICLE
Few would dispute that Garrincha was the greatest to have lined up alongside Pelé. Similarly, there seems little doubt that Tostão was the brightest: the entire career of Pelé’s Mexico 70 front partner was an excellent illustration of the claim that “the first five yards are in the head.”
Fate works in mysterious ways. The fact that Tostao was forced to hang up his boots early not because of a broken knee or a hurt ankle, but because of an eye injury, was a chance event. But in a roundabout way, it was a symbolically suitable manner to end his playing career. After all, it was his all-seeing eyes – and the sharp brain wired to them – that was the secret behind Eduardo Goncalves de Andrade’s genius as a player. Several attributes may have been missing from the diminutive striker’s game, but one thing he had in abundance was vision.
Beyond his magnificent play on the pitch, Tostao had a great footballing brain. He pondered deeply about the game. Star players, as a rule, intuitively know what to do. “How do they know? They know, but they don’t know they know. It is knowledge that transcends human comprehension,” explained Tostao. The difference is that, as well as being born with this instinctive knowledge, Tostao had the intelligence to analyse it with precision, and then put this analysis into practice during his career. “Jean-Claude Killy, the famous French skier, used to train mentally with a stopwatch and would say that he managed almost the same time when it came to the actual race,” he said. “I trained the moves mentally, constantly picturing game situations in my mind’s eye. “I stood out because of my passing, my dribbling, my timing in the box and above all my ability to anticipate what was about to happen,” the Brazilian explained in his 1997 book entitled Tostão, Lembranças, Opiniões, Reflexões sobre Futebol (Tostao, Memories, Opinions and Reflections on Football).”
TOSTÃO 'THE NEW KING OF FOOTBALL'.. DEFEATING PELE'S SANTOS (1966)
Tostao was the chief protagonist at his club, Cruzeiro. The brilliance of his displays there helped make them one of Brazil’s biggest clubs in the sixties, at a time when the country was teeming with great sides, not least Pele’s Santos. In December of 1966 Cruzeiro won the Taça Brasil [a forerunner of the Brazilian Championship] beating Santos, Pelé and all, 6-2 in Belo Horizonte, and 3-2 in São Paulo...
They were two spectacular victories. Nowadays it’s nothing special for Cruzeiro to beat Santos. Cruzeiro are recognised as a big team. But in those days it was like a team from the countryside beating the best in the world.
We were celebrating in the dressing-room and someone, I think a reporter, arrived with a crown and put it on my head and the photographers snapped away. There it was in the papers the next day with the headline, “Tostão, the new king of football.”
I didn’t want to go out to the street, I felt so ashamed of the photo. I felt like a usurper of the throne, a phoney. If Pelé had been just another good player then I would have felt fine, justified in calling myself the best. But it wasn’t because of one game that Pelé stopped being the king, the best player in the world. I knew my limits. I was a top player, but I wasn’t Pelé. Pelé was so much better — the difference was so vast! No one dared to put themselves on the same level.
'PELE'S RESERVE' TO PELE'S STRIKER PARTNER (67-69)
Even so, you had the scene to yourself for a while, because Pelé didn’t play for Brazil again until 1968, and you were playing and scoring. When he came back, did you return to being Pelé’s reserve?
Until João Saldanha took over. He called me over and said, “What’s the problem with you playing?” And I said, “I don’t have a problem, apart from the fact that every coach seems to think of me as Pelé’s reserve.” And he said, “From now on that’s over. You’re the first name on the team- sheet, ahead of Pelé” — I’m sure he was joking — “and another thing; you can play badly, and it’s no problem. You’re staying in the team. It’s you and Pelé up front. Take it in turns, with one of you staying up and the other dropping. Sort it out between yourselves.” And it worked. In the World Cup qualifiers in 1969 I was top scorer.
Saldanha liked me. Even today I wonder if Saldanha liked me more for my football or for my way of thinking [Saldanha was a communist, and therefore a curious choice to coach the national team of a country ruled by a right-wing military dictatorship]. At the time I had made a few statements saying that my idol was Dom Helder Camara, the Bishop of Olinda who was being persecuted for speaking out against the dictatorship.
nutmegging Bobby Moore to create Jairzinho's goal in 1970
INTERVIEW/ARTICLE
Few would dispute that Garrincha was the greatest to have lined up alongside Pelé. Similarly, there seems little doubt that Tostão was the brightest: the entire career of Pelé’s Mexico 70 front partner was an excellent illustration of the claim that “the first five yards are in the head.”
Fate works in mysterious ways. The fact that Tostao was forced to hang up his boots early not because of a broken knee or a hurt ankle, but because of an eye injury, was a chance event. But in a roundabout way, it was a symbolically suitable manner to end his playing career. After all, it was his all-seeing eyes – and the sharp brain wired to them – that was the secret behind Eduardo Goncalves de Andrade’s genius as a player. Several attributes may have been missing from the diminutive striker’s game, but one thing he had in abundance was vision.
Beyond his magnificent play on the pitch, Tostao had a great footballing brain. He pondered deeply about the game. Star players, as a rule, intuitively know what to do. “How do they know? They know, but they don’t know they know. It is knowledge that transcends human comprehension,” explained Tostao. The difference is that, as well as being born with this instinctive knowledge, Tostao had the intelligence to analyse it with precision, and then put this analysis into practice during his career. “Jean-Claude Killy, the famous French skier, used to train mentally with a stopwatch and would say that he managed almost the same time when it came to the actual race,” he said. “I trained the moves mentally, constantly picturing game situations in my mind’s eye. “I stood out because of my passing, my dribbling, my timing in the box and above all my ability to anticipate what was about to happen,” the Brazilian explained in his 1997 book entitled Tostão, Lembranças, Opiniões, Reflexões sobre Futebol (Tostao, Memories, Opinions and Reflections on Football).”
TOSTÃO 'THE NEW KING OF FOOTBALL'.. DEFEATING PELE'S SANTOS (1966)
Tostao was the chief protagonist at his club, Cruzeiro. The brilliance of his displays there helped make them one of Brazil’s biggest clubs in the sixties, at a time when the country was teeming with great sides, not least Pele’s Santos. In December of 1966 Cruzeiro won the Taça Brasil [a forerunner of the Brazilian Championship] beating Santos, Pelé and all, 6-2 in Belo Horizonte, and 3-2 in São Paulo...
They were two spectacular victories. Nowadays it’s nothing special for Cruzeiro to beat Santos. Cruzeiro are recognised as a big team. But in those days it was like a team from the countryside beating the best in the world.
We were celebrating in the dressing-room and someone, I think a reporter, arrived with a crown and put it on my head and the photographers snapped away. There it was in the papers the next day with the headline, “Tostão, the new king of football.”
I didn’t want to go out to the street, I felt so ashamed of the photo. I felt like a usurper of the throne, a phoney. If Pelé had been just another good player then I would have felt fine, justified in calling myself the best. But it wasn’t because of one game that Pelé stopped being the king, the best player in the world. I knew my limits. I was a top player, but I wasn’t Pelé. Pelé was so much better — the difference was so vast! No one dared to put themselves on the same level.
'PELE'S RESERVE' TO PELE'S STRIKER PARTNER (67-69)
Even so, you had the scene to yourself for a while, because Pelé didn’t play for Brazil again until 1968, and you were playing and scoring. When he came back, did you return to being Pelé’s reserve?
Until João Saldanha took over. He called me over and said, “What’s the problem with you playing?” And I said, “I don’t have a problem, apart from the fact that every coach seems to think of me as Pelé’s reserve.” And he said, “From now on that’s over. You’re the first name on the team- sheet, ahead of Pelé” — I’m sure he was joking — “and another thing; you can play badly, and it’s no problem. You’re staying in the team. It’s you and Pelé up front. Take it in turns, with one of you staying up and the other dropping. Sort it out between yourselves.” And it worked. In the World Cup qualifiers in 1969 I was top scorer.
Saldanha liked me. Even today I wonder if Saldanha liked me more for my football or for my way of thinking [Saldanha was a communist, and therefore a curious choice to coach the national team of a country ruled by a right-wing military dictatorship]. At the time I had made a few statements saying that my idol was Dom Helder Camara, the Bishop of Olinda who was being persecuted for speaking out against the dictatorship.
LOSS OF EYESIGHT FOLLOWED BY CHANGE OF BRAZIL MANAGER.. CAREER UNDER THREAT (AGED 23)
The innate capacity to observe that set Tostao apart made the events of a rainy September afternoon in 1969, in Pacaembu, Sao Paulo, all the more poignant. Cruzeiro were up against Corinthians and on the attack when Tostao slipped and fell, losing control of the ball. It ran to Corinthians centre-back Ditao, who attempted to clear it as far upfield as possible. Tostao’s face was in the way of the wet and heavy ball - or more specifically his left eye was. The impact left Tostao with a dislocated retina. More than simply jeopardising his presence at the following year’s World Cup, the player's entire career was left hanging in the balance, and worse still, his very eyesight.
“I tried to stay calm. The worse thing at the beginning was the uncertainty, but I gradually gained confidence that everything would sort itself out,” he said. “I started making plans: surgery at the start of October, six months’ recovery time, back training again in April and in June I’d be at the World Cup. And that’s exactly how it worked out.” In the midst of these plans, in March 1970, Brazil ousted the coach who had made Tostao an undisputed starter, Joao Saldanha, replacing him with Zagallo. At the beginning of the new coach’s reign, Tostao was the second choice striker. In other words, Pele’s substitute.
Two things changed. Zagallo entered with the line that “Tostão is Pelé’s reserve.” And also he wasn’t sure that I had recovered. I’d gone eight months without playing. At that moment everyone thought I was out of the World Cup. But he kept me in the squad. He thought there were too many midfielders, so he dropped Zé Carlos and Dirceu Lopes and brought in two centre-forwards with the characteristics he was looking for, Dario and Roberto Miranda. He preferred a traditional centre-forward, fixed in the area, with Pelé coming from behind. So he gave Roberto and Dario a chance up front. This was fine by me — I was still getting my fitness back. “Let them play now,” I thought, “while I’m preparing.”
And Zagallo was mistaken. The style of Roberto or Dario was not right for that team. Pelé, Gerson, Rivelino, they didn’t need a striker who would basically wait for the ball to arrive to shoot at goal. They needed a different type of player, one with my characteristics, a player of movement, technique and quick thinking to combine with them.
WORLD CUP 1970
Otherwise it would have been like Serginho in 1982, a striker not speaking the same language as his midfield. That type of striker was lost with that type of team. Zagallo saw this and decided to try me out, but without much conviction that it would work. Before a training game in Mexico he came up to me and asked, “Do you think you could play up front without dropping back? I know it’s not your normal style, but what do you reckon?” And so I went out and did it. And I knew that with Pelé and Jairzinho bursting forward, very quick, goalscorers, very strong physically, aggressive, I knew that with technique, dribbles and passes, my style would work. Straight away everyone could feel that it was right, the parts were fitting, the quick one-twos were flowing. That hadn’t been happening before. At the end of the game they all came up to me, Gerson, Pelé, Rivelino. No one said anything — no one wanted to be so presumptuous in front of the coach — but I felt the message they were sending me with their body language: “You’re in.” And in the dressing room Zagallo came up to me with a big smile and said, “Congratulations, you did well,” and I knew I would start the competition in the team.
In the second game, against England, it was tough, and there were few chances to combine moves with Pelé. That gave me the stimulus to try an individual move and I went on a dribble that helped set up the only goal It was then that I sealed my place in the side.
But the eye was still a worry...
The coaching staff were concerned, because I suffered a haemorrhage. My eye was all red. Gerson was terrified! So they hurriedly sent for Roberto Moura from Houston. He came down, examined me and said there was no problem, I could play. So he was there, invited by the Brazilian federation, watching the games, and at the end when we had won the World Cup I presented him with my medal.
INSIGHT INTO HIS LINK UP PLAY WITH PELE
Lots of centre-forwards were shown up when they played with Pelé: you could quickly see that they weren’t good enough for the national team because they couldn’t keep up with him. His thinking was so quick and he could — still can — look in a very imposing way. He played a lot with looks and gestures. He moved a lot to throw off his marker. When the central midfielder had the ball he would feint to burst forward and then drop to receive the ball. Or he would feint to drop and then burst. With a glance he would try to communicate to the centre forward what he was aiming to do. It was all done in just a fraction of a second.
I could follow him. This was my strength. In fact I had much more intelligence and speed of thought than technique. I often imagined doing things on the field that I wasn’t capable of pulling off, because I didn’t have the speed or the skill to do them. But I thought quickly — and this is what Pelé needed. When he glanced at me I already knew what he wanted; when he was going to give it first time, when he was going to change position. You had to follow his thinking. Pelé liked to play with a partner; he depended on this. He created the moves, but he needed a partner to help. He grew up like this, with Pagão and then Coutinho at Santos.
The innate capacity to observe that set Tostao apart made the events of a rainy September afternoon in 1969, in Pacaembu, Sao Paulo, all the more poignant. Cruzeiro were up against Corinthians and on the attack when Tostao slipped and fell, losing control of the ball. It ran to Corinthians centre-back Ditao, who attempted to clear it as far upfield as possible. Tostao’s face was in the way of the wet and heavy ball - or more specifically his left eye was. The impact left Tostao with a dislocated retina. More than simply jeopardising his presence at the following year’s World Cup, the player's entire career was left hanging in the balance, and worse still, his very eyesight.
“I tried to stay calm. The worse thing at the beginning was the uncertainty, but I gradually gained confidence that everything would sort itself out,” he said. “I started making plans: surgery at the start of October, six months’ recovery time, back training again in April and in June I’d be at the World Cup. And that’s exactly how it worked out.” In the midst of these plans, in March 1970, Brazil ousted the coach who had made Tostao an undisputed starter, Joao Saldanha, replacing him with Zagallo. At the beginning of the new coach’s reign, Tostao was the second choice striker. In other words, Pele’s substitute.
Two things changed. Zagallo entered with the line that “Tostão is Pelé’s reserve.” And also he wasn’t sure that I had recovered. I’d gone eight months without playing. At that moment everyone thought I was out of the World Cup. But he kept me in the squad. He thought there were too many midfielders, so he dropped Zé Carlos and Dirceu Lopes and brought in two centre-forwards with the characteristics he was looking for, Dario and Roberto Miranda. He preferred a traditional centre-forward, fixed in the area, with Pelé coming from behind. So he gave Roberto and Dario a chance up front. This was fine by me — I was still getting my fitness back. “Let them play now,” I thought, “while I’m preparing.”
And Zagallo was mistaken. The style of Roberto or Dario was not right for that team. Pelé, Gerson, Rivelino, they didn’t need a striker who would basically wait for the ball to arrive to shoot at goal. They needed a different type of player, one with my characteristics, a player of movement, technique and quick thinking to combine with them.
WORLD CUP 1970
Otherwise it would have been like Serginho in 1982, a striker not speaking the same language as his midfield. That type of striker was lost with that type of team. Zagallo saw this and decided to try me out, but without much conviction that it would work. Before a training game in Mexico he came up to me and asked, “Do you think you could play up front without dropping back? I know it’s not your normal style, but what do you reckon?” And so I went out and did it. And I knew that with Pelé and Jairzinho bursting forward, very quick, goalscorers, very strong physically, aggressive, I knew that with technique, dribbles and passes, my style would work. Straight away everyone could feel that it was right, the parts were fitting, the quick one-twos were flowing. That hadn’t been happening before. At the end of the game they all came up to me, Gerson, Pelé, Rivelino. No one said anything — no one wanted to be so presumptuous in front of the coach — but I felt the message they were sending me with their body language: “You’re in.” And in the dressing room Zagallo came up to me with a big smile and said, “Congratulations, you did well,” and I knew I would start the competition in the team.
In the second game, against England, it was tough, and there were few chances to combine moves with Pelé. That gave me the stimulus to try an individual move and I went on a dribble that helped set up the only goal It was then that I sealed my place in the side.
But the eye was still a worry...
The coaching staff were concerned, because I suffered a haemorrhage. My eye was all red. Gerson was terrified! So they hurriedly sent for Roberto Moura from Houston. He came down, examined me and said there was no problem, I could play. So he was there, invited by the Brazilian federation, watching the games, and at the end when we had won the World Cup I presented him with my medal.
INSIGHT INTO HIS LINK UP PLAY WITH PELE
Lots of centre-forwards were shown up when they played with Pelé: you could quickly see that they weren’t good enough for the national team because they couldn’t keep up with him. His thinking was so quick and he could — still can — look in a very imposing way. He played a lot with looks and gestures. He moved a lot to throw off his marker. When the central midfielder had the ball he would feint to burst forward and then drop to receive the ball. Or he would feint to drop and then burst. With a glance he would try to communicate to the centre forward what he was aiming to do. It was all done in just a fraction of a second.
I could follow him. This was my strength. In fact I had much more intelligence and speed of thought than technique. I often imagined doing things on the field that I wasn’t capable of pulling off, because I didn’t have the speed or the skill to do them. But I thought quickly — and this is what Pelé needed. When he glanced at me I already knew what he wanted; when he was going to give it first time, when he was going to change position. You had to follow his thinking. Pelé liked to play with a partner; he depended on this. He created the moves, but he needed a partner to help. He grew up like this, with Pagão and then Coutinho at Santos.
@Pat_Mustard @Skizzo
Invictus & EAP won't be here tonight.
Let me know when you're online so that we could ask a neutral to collect our presentations in order to launch the game.
Invictus & EAP won't be here tonight.
Let me know when you're online so that we could ask a neutral to collect our presentations in order to launch the game.
Sure thing. I'll try and get something together in a little bit. I'm out and about and on my phone right now, and only have a rough draft together. I'll be home soon to finalize it...after all, we want to make sure we give your team the matchup it deserves
So I'll get it in hopefully in an hour or two? Unless Pat gets back before me.
Good. Take your time.Sure thing. I'll try and get something together in a little bit. I'm out and about and on my phone right now, and only have a rough draft together. I'll be home soon to finalize it...after all, we want to make sure we give your team the matchup it deserves
So I'll get it in hopefully in an hour or two? Unless Pat gets back before me.
Let me know when finished
I can start it if needed. Just send the stuff over when you're done.
Thanks! Sent!
Got it, will start when I get P/S's stuff.
@Skizzo here?
Want me to start it regardless - or wait until tomorrow if it drags on?
Have you received something from them?
Nope.
Sent my writeup to @Joga Bonito and @Balu .. can either of you confirm that you can start game with @Chesterlestreet
EAP ain't around tomorrow either?
Very good - 'till tomorrow then.
Don't think so mate, thought he said unavailable over the weekend..
Did the same. Lets hope so.
Sorry for the delay, just got back and got something sent over. feel free to throw it up now if you want. I'm probably not around much tomorrow (if at all) and I think @Pat_Mustard is working on his alcohol tolerance