The genius of Marcus Rashford

[Shakesy]

Rashford divides opinions like no other player

Remember that thread from a couple of years back - Keep or sell? Something like 70% wanted to sell. Then he had a remarkable season and the minority who voted "keep" continually ripped into those who voted "sell". I think at least some of this Rashford dislike comes from posters who voted sell and were reminded by some keep-wankers they've got it wrong. Now those who voted sell back then have the knives sharpened and ready.

So, I absolutely blame the keep-wankers for everything Rashford related

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

. However on the right his average performance was much better and more consistent.

I think this is just what happens with time, Nani had a brilliant 12-18 months. Not unlike Rashford’s brilliant last season.
Before and after that he was constantly slated by many for being “braindead”, “shit decision making”, “no football IQ”, “constantly giving the ball away” etc. That was aimed at him no matter what side of the pitch he played on.
I always forgave Nani as I’ll have a risk taker any day over a Valencia type player, but a huge majority of fans absolutely thought him braindead.

Here’s an article from 2013 after Nani got booed by United fans: https://syndication.bleacherreport....ns-who-booed-nani-are-helping-nobody.amp.html

But Nani is an easy target.

He can frustrate even the most patient fans by running into trouble, giving the ball away and hitting the first defender with crosses into the box. His aimless shooting against Stoke didn't help either.

At 26 years old, United fans are still waiting for him to become the consistent threat his talent deserves. But after six years at Old Trafford, some sections of the support saw the new five-year contact he signed this season as a step backward.

Remind you of anyone @MadDogg or @amolbhatia50k ?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think this is just what happens with time, Nani had a brilliant 12-18 months. Not unlike Rashford’s brilliant last season.
Before and after that he was constantly slated by many for being “braindead”, “shit decision making”, “no football IQ”, “constantly giving the ball away” etc. That was aimed at him no matter what side of the pitch he played on.
I always forgave Nani as I’ll have a risk taker any day over a Valencia type player, but a huge majority of fans absolutely thought him braindead.

Here’s an article from 2013 after Nani got booed by United fans: https://syndication.bleacherreport....ns-who-booed-nani-are-helping-nobody.amp.html



Remind you of anyone @MadDogg or @amolbhatia50k ?

If you're trying to big Rashford up by saying he's been as good as Nani was, then that's faint praise IMO.

Although I do agree that their records are comparable. Both streaky players capable of a brilliant 12-18 months but a tier below the really top PL players. And we all hope Rashford's career from here goes a lot better from here than Nani's did after his hot streak came to an end. Otherwise we'd be better off selling Rashford, either now or in the summer.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

If you're trying to big Rashford up by saying he's been as good as Nani was, then that's faint praise IMO.

No, the debate started with a mention of Nani and me replying that Nani would be absolutely detested if he played for us now.
Lots of posters disagree with seems bizarre to me, it’s not particularly controversial.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No, the debate started with a mention of Nani and me replying that Nani would be absolutely detested if he played for us now.
Lots of posters disagree with seems bizarre to me, it’s not particularly controversial.

Ah, ok. Then I'm 100% with you. He wasn't far off being detested for most of his United career. And that was playing in a successful team!

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Ah, ok. Then I'm 100% with you. He wasn't far off being detested for most of his United career. And that was playing in a successful team!

Exactly that, and the arguments I’ve received are that he’d be liked more in this team as he’d be our best winger by a mile, to which I simply don’t believe would be the case. I reckon he’d struggle even more than Rashford in this team, considering their goal contribution stats are similar per game ratio with one having much superior teammates.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

For me the craziest thing is just how his body language is when he isnt playing in his favored position. Watching him at CF he looked like he was pouting, which is just crazy for me. Youd think that leading the line for your boyhood club would be an honor, not a punishment. CF should be a position he could do well in, ie making runs in behind the defense and playing thru channels. I dont expect him to be some sort of target man or anything (especially since we know he is famed for that half ass "challenge" on anything in the air)

 

[ErikElevenHag]

If only I could write what I really think about some the posts in here, but i've already had a warning so i'll not bother.

Rashford whilst frustrating is undoubtedly talented, just have to accept him for what he is. Streaky player who is unplayable when he's high in confidence. The problem is he's our only source of goals, so when he's struggling the reactions are more over the top and the pressure is much higher. That is a failing of the manager and the club though that our main source of goals is someone who's career shows he's just as susceptible to have a 10 game goalless streak as he is a 10 game scoring streak.

 

[InspiRED]

I think he has the attributes to be a top player, on a good day he is visibly quality. But the sheer number of times he's been generally atrociously bad means it's incredibly dumb to have him as one of the highest earners and our star attacking player. Maybe not his complete fault owing to how bad Sancho and Antony have been, but yeah I don't fancy our chances of winning anything beyond the mickey mouse cup while the guy is our go-to goal-scorer.

Also has to be said that his attitude is visually terrible for a big chunk of games, he shows little intensity, doesn't have a desperate desire to win like Rooney/Tevez (insert great ex player here), doesn't fight to win the ball back, doesn't challenge for headers. Additionally, dangerous players do lose the ball more often as they take more risks, but Rashford takes the biscuit with how little possession is valued, and, for a wide player, when was the last time you can remember him even crossing into the box? I remember there was that great ball for Hojlund earlier in the season. It's pretty unfathomable for a wide player to be so inactive in that action in general. He is good in one or two situations where Bruno can put him in behind and, during a purple patch, he's extremely dangerous at this, but when it's not working - even on those rare occasions we play high-line suicidal teams like Villa - the promising situations will still only result in something 1/10 times.

Rashford is like Son, his ceiling might even be higher. However, what we have is the equivalent of Son showing up for about on average 15% of a season (entire Utd career as comparison), being terrible at linking with teammates and doesn't seem to give a f about losing. I probably agree that getting on his case isn't going to help much, but that shouldn't stop fans pointing out the (blindingly) obvious.

Tl;dr: Talent is there but attitude is bad and performances objectively inconsistent. You don't just pray he's going to be in the right mindframe every match, you use stats to find a goalscorers/attackers that are objectively more consistent and committed. Not rocket science but everyone likes a bit of mud-slinging now and again I guess.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The media has definitely influenced many of our fanbase by pushing the negative steretyping of rashford, there seems to be a theme with our recent black players like rashford, martial, sancho, lukaku and pogba quick to be labelled as "lazy".

Have you tried watching them play?

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

He would be a top player if he simply had better decision making. For every goal he scores he has already made at least 5 stupid choices that sometimes denies the team a good goal scoring opportunity

 

[GiveItToGi...nowait]

Exactly that, and the arguments I’ve received are that he’d be liked more in this team as he’d be our best winger by a mile, to which I simply don’t believe would be the case. I reckon he’d struggle even more than Rashford in this team, considering their goal contribution stats are similar per game ratio with one having much superior teammates.

"goal contribution" drives me up the wall. Players who passed it backwards 5 yards for a 35 yard screamer have "contributed", case in point is the Rashford "assist" the other night. Nani was better all round player albeit playing for a better team inside a settled club. Further Nani was an inside forward playing in an era where as a winger he was expected to beat his man and whip in a cross, nowadays he would be getting on the end of more chances I reckon. Technically and athletically ahead of this seasons version of Rashford and happy to play from the left or right.

No doubt both were/are streaky players but Rashford's performances have bordered on self sabotage this season.

Take away Rashford's pace and what are you left with? Now ask the same question about Nani.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

"goal contribution" drives me up the wall. Players who passed it backwards 5 yards for a 35 yard screamer have "contributed", case in point is the Rashford "assist" the other night.

Rashford didn’t get an assist the other night.

 

[Wumminator]

Must try harder

If you don’t appreciate what Rashford has done as a fan over the last few seasons you are genuinely thick and don’t understand football.

 

[Lentwood]

Intersting but I need to understand those stats better. Is it goal or assist combined? Divided by the number of games?

How does he compare to those players purely as a goalscorer?

Be also good to see how he holds up against a player everyone agrees didn't cut it as a top PL striker, Lukaku. And maybe some United strikers of the past? Rooney, Ruud, RvP?

Apologies for giving you homework!

It's appearances / goal contributions in the Premier League only. You'd probably find the ratios wouldn't change a huge amount by removing assists, actually Rashford playing AMLF probably has more assists, as a percentage, than CFs like Watkins and Wilson but not 100% on that.

I'm the first to admit it's hugely flawed as a means to assess a player. It's certainly not intended as a measure of a players' ability or effectiveness. It also creates endless debates about whether a player is a wide-forward or a centre-forward or whatever...which is why I included a few like KdB, Son and Salah to show elite players could achieve better numbers from non-CF positions.

Anyway...this was solely to prove a point that statistically Rashford isn't special since another poster said his stats were "exceptional" (or words to that effect, I forget).

*it also doesn't take into account partial appearances. It was lazy quick calculations done on my phone. Goal contributions per minute would obviously be a better metric.

 

[GiveItToGi...nowait]

Rashford didn’t get an assist the other night.

I had to check and you are correct, Fotmob gaslighting me again.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Here’s an article from 2013 after Nani got booed by United fans: https://syndication.bleacherreport....ns-who-booed-nani-are-helping-nobody.amp.html



Remind you of anyone @MadDogg or @amolbhatia50k ?

Standards were different. In the alternate universe where Rashford was in Nani’s place he’d have been already binned.

 

[mintyred]

Rashford is one of the most talented forwards in modern football. His stats are good but they should be much better. He should be 30 goals a season player all comps every year, but he's hot one season and cold the next.

 

[El Jefe]

Rashford is a good player that has the status and contract of a great player. He’s clearly shown he’s able to hit the levels of a great player but what good is it if on a season by season case you don’t know what Rashford you’re going to get.

The standards at this club are sky high because of the players that have come before him. Having his contract, the No.10 shirt and being a guaranteed starter (until this season) comes with massive expectations.

For what it’s worth I think Nani would be viewed similar if he was in this side with a fat contract and the number 7 shirt for example. As good as Nani was, the fans were really hard on him and it’s because of the type of wide players that came before him. Giggs, Sharpe, Kanchelskis, Becks, Ole, Ronaldo and Park were all mentally tough and pretty much warriors on the pitch, even if some weren’t physical players they played with an edge. Nani was a bit soft and could roll around and be bullied at times. It’s one of the reasons why despite him being more talented than Valencia, I always felt the fans took to Tony V more. He was no nonsense and consistent as hell until he fell off himself.

So Nani and Rashford are similar in a way. When they are on they are shit hot but during tough spells they can really frustrate the fans. Add in Rashy’s lack of work rate and Nani’s antics and you could see why fans get on their back.

Also Nani crying after the Carragher tackle at Anfield is up there with Herrera being carried off the pitch by Noble as the most non-Manchester United things I’ve ever seen.

 

[Lost bear]

We really do have the worst set of fans in the entire world on this forum.

Half of you must refuse to cheer or celebrate when Rashford scores a goal or contributes to a win, which actually would explain why it's been so miserable for you supporting United the last 5 years, since that would leave us with 0 trophies and probably playing in the Championship.

Probably only a few weeks before some of the more impressive muppets go back to pretending Sancho is better than him.

Not really. I’m always delighted when he scores or contributes. But those things haven’t happened often of late. I have no secret agenda concerning Marcus, I just try to speak as I find. Overall, I think he’s greatly overhyped. I wish it were different, but it just isn’t.

 

[Lentwood]

So interesting perspective on Rashford and perhaps some middle-ground to be found in the debate on both sides...

If you check out Rashford's statistics on FBREF and see his percentile ranks against players in the big five leagues over the last season, its interesting to note that you can select two views, one 'vs forwards' and one 'vs wingers'.

When compared with wingers, Rashford scores in the 90th percentile for goals per minute but poorly for basically everything else you'd want from a good/elite wingers i.e. successful take-ons, ball carries, progressive passes, assists etc...

When compared with forwards, Rashford has a very mediocre goal return and is only slightly above average for assists - but his take-on's, ball carries etc...are now high by comparison to CFs.

Could it simply be the case that Rashford is a player that can be very good when used in one very specific role, almost as a forward playing from the left, distinguished from an inverted winger/wide forward in the sense that he is often the furthest player forward and acting as the main attacker.

But...when playing as more of an AMLF, with a CF, which means tracking-back and being involved in the build-up, he looks very, very limited?

Haven't delved massively into this, only looked at the last 365 days. That's probably a fair snapshot because its contains a hot streak and a cold streak so likely averages somewhere around his mean.

https://fbref.com/en/players/a1d5bd30/Marcus-Rashford

Could be summarised as a poor winger but a good goalscorer from the left or a limited goalscorer but more mobile forward through the middle

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Also Nani crying after the Carragher tackle at Anfield is up there with Herrera being carried off the pitch by Noble as the most non-Manchester United things I’ve ever seen.

I'm far from Nani's biggest fan but Carragher split his shin open with a studs up challenge. That's going to fecking hurt.

 

[Lost bear]

So interesting perspective on Rashford and perhaps some middle-ground to be found in the debate on both sides...

If you check out Rashford's statistics on FBREF and see his percentile ranks against players in the big five leagues over the last season, its interesting to note that you can select two views, one 'vs forwards' and one 'vs wingers'.

When compared with wingers, Rashford scores in the 90th percentile for goals per minute but poorly for basically everything else you'd want from a good/elite wingers i.e. successful take-ons, ball carries, progressive passes, assists etc...

When compared with forwards, Rashford has a very mediocre goal return and is only slightly above average for assists - but his take-on's, ball carries etc...are now high by comparison to CFs.

Could it simply be the case that Rashford is a player that can be very good when used in one very specific role, almost as a forward playing from the left, distinguished from an inverted winger/wide forward in the sense that he is often the furthest player forward and acting as the main attacker.

But...when playing as more of an AMLF, with a CF, which means tracking-back and being involved in the build-up, he looks very, very limited?

Haven't delved massively into this, only looked at the last 365 days. That's probably a fair snapshot because its contains a hot streak and a cold streak so likely averages somewhere around his mean.

https://fbref.com/en/players/a1d5bd30/Marcus-Rashford

Could be summarised as a poor winger but a good goalscorer from the left or a limited goalscorer but more mobile forward through the middle

That’s a different and possibly more productive way of approaching the question.

The problem with quantifying methods though is that they tend not to capture issues like attitude. One of my main problems with the guy is that it really looks like he doesn’t give a shit a lot of the time; similarly, his decision making is often badly selfish. I realise that these qualities are classified as subjective judgements, but I think they may underpin some of the poor stats.

 

[UnitedSofa]

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[FerociousCorgis]

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meh i hate this by our players. Do nothing for how long, pop up with a moment or two, and act like they are above reproach yet again. Of course we question his commitment when he strolls about and refuses to challenge for any header in his area code and mopes about when asked to lead the line

And as mentioned he didnt even get the assist. it was from one of his headless runs again. This shit reminds me too much of maguire scoring against some little minnow team for england and doing his celebration. Just stay off social media and enjoy your 350k a week to play a damn game for a living.

 

[Lee565]

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As much as I like keane I don't like his punditry, we have seen how he gas lighted a lot of the over the top Maguire hate by constantly mocking him when he was going through a tough period, same goes for mctominay and Fred when the finger needed to be pointed at the manager and others up higher but he has always gone after the low hanging fruit

 

[Pronewbie]

meh i hate this by our players. Do nothing for how long, pop up with a moment or two, and act like they are above reproach yet again. Of course we question his commitment when he strolls about and refuses to challenge for any header in his area code and mopes about when asked to lead the line

And as mentioned he didnt even get the assist. it was from one of his headless runs again. This shit reminds me too much of maguire scoring against some little minnow team for england and doing his celebration. Just stay off social media and enjoy your 350k a week to play a damn game for a living.

Thank you for clarifying this matter.

 

[clarkydaz]

why is he trawling through twitter for a random guy defending him?

 

[Vidooq]

I really dont comprehend how fans can defend the fact that there are games where he can not be arsed to press, track back or challenge for the ball? How do you expect to win if you dont do this?

To me, this is unforgivable from a player, unless you are Messi.

 

[Ludens the Red]

why is he trawling through twitter for a random guy defending him?

I mean I know it isn’t actually Rashford but it is really funny when you put it that way.

 

[alexthelion]

If he was marco rashfordino playing on the wing for some also ran in the Spanish league, who scored 41 goals from the wing last season in a team that couldn't otherwise score in a brothel, everyone on this site would be screaming about us buying him.

Hes been our best player over the last 5 years

Says more about how bad we've become rather than how good Rashford has been.

 

[alexthelion]

If you don’t appreciate what Rashford has done as a fan over the last few seasons you are genuinely thick and don’t understand football.

 

[alexthelion]

Rashford is one of the most talented forwards in modern football.

Not in this universe.

 

[MancunianAngels]

Strikes me as odd that the thread discussing a player that hasn't played for us for two years because he was accused of domestic abuse is more positive than those discussing Rashford.

 

[stefan92]

So interesting perspective on Rashford and perhaps some middle-ground to be found in the debate on both sides...

If you check out Rashford's statistics on FBREF and see his percentile ranks against players in the big five leagues over the last season, its interesting to note that you can select two views, one 'vs forwards' and one 'vs wingers'.

When compared with wingers, Rashford scores in the 90th percentile for goals per minute but poorly for basically everything else you'd want from a good/elite wingers i.e. successful take-ons, ball carries, progressive passes, assists etc...

When compared with forwards, Rashford has a very mediocre goal return and is only slightly above average for assists - but his take-on's, ball carries etc...are now high by comparison to CFs.

Could it simply be the case that Rashford is a player that can be very good when used in one very specific role, almost as a forward playing from the left, distinguished from an inverted winger/wide forward in the sense that he is often the furthest player forward and acting as the main attacker.

But...when playing as more of an AMLF, with a CF, which means tracking-back and being involved in the build-up, he looks very, very limited?

Haven't delved massively into this, only looked at the last 365 days. That's probably a fair snapshot because its contains a hot streak and a cold streak so likely averages somewhere around his mean.

https://fbref.com/en/players/a1d5bd30/Marcus-Rashford

Could be summarised as a poor winger but a good goalscorer from the left or a limited goalscorer but more mobile forward through the middle

Definitely, Rashford is a player who thrives in the left half space. He is more of a second striker than a center forward or winger who likes the left side. There are definitely formations that would suit him, but the current one that forces him to play as a winger isn't one. It's sad to see that he doesn't put in a shift, but that he isn't getting numbers if he plays outside of his comfort zone is not surprising to me at all.

I would really like to see him in a formation that suits him better, something like a 3421 should be great (with Hojlund in front of him and Bruno as the top three for example using current players), where he just doesn't have the responsibility to cover the wing. When Shaw is fit and doing overlapping runs as LB it works fine as Rashford then can drift inside, but with Dalot behind him as an inverted LB like we have seen so often this season this just can't work. Which is a tactical decision emphasing Rashford's weaknesses instead of his strengths

 

[Lentwood]

Definitely, Rashford is a player who thrives in the left half space. He is more of a second striker than a center forward or winger who likes the left side. There are definitely formations that would suit him, but the current one that forces him to play as a winger isn't one. It's sad to see that he doesn't put in a shift, but that he isn't getting numbers if he plays outside of his comfort zone is not surprising to me at all.

I would really like to see him in a formation that suits him better, something like a 3421 should be great (with Hojlund in front of him and Bruno as the top three for example using current players), where he just doesn't have the responsibility to cover the wing. When Shaw is fit and doing overlapping runs as LB it works fine as Rashford then can drift inside, but with Dalot behind him as an inverted LB like we have seen so often this season this just can't work. Which is a tactical decision emphasing Rashford's weaknesses instead of his strengths

If he's going to play more like a typical winger, and not a wide forward, then maybe playing on the right and going on the outside would actually help him?

He's been historically poor as an AMRF because he doesn't want to cut-in and shoot with his left, but if he's playing more "traditionally", might not matter?

 

[Captmfla]

Rashford thrives on the left wing. Antony thrives on the right. Hojlund is great as central striker. Bruno is a great shooter for no 10 role.

Things are looking great again. Time to get the midfield and defence good!

 

[stefan92]

If he's going to play more like a typical winger, and not a wide forward, then maybe playing on the right and going on the outside would actually help him?

He's been historically poor as an AMRF because he doesn't want to cut-in and shoot with his left, but if he's playing more "traditionally", might not matter?

He doesn't look for better positioned players, relying on him to assist other players feels like a bad idea for me. Also dud he ever put in a good cross? Because he lacks awareness I would use him mostly as a pure finisher, so not on the right at all.

 

[Puskas_007]

Yep, after our barren years, I also (almost) understand why RAWK was/is what it was

100% - we've come close to the 'next year will be our year' narrative but (at least!?) things have been so slapstick recently that we're not that delusional yet!

 

[Ish]

100% - we've come close to the 'next year will be our year' narrative but (at least!?) things have been so slapstick recently that we're not that delusional yet!

Key word being "yet"

But yeah, there's a good level-headed bunch on here as well. So i'm confident it'll never quite descend that far....but yeah, who knows!