What's more baffling is Smalling/Maguire would be a great partnership with the extra pace and athleticism and about as good an aerial blockade for DDG as you could find. Can't help but think Smalling wasn't massively popular/a bit introverted because on paper it's weird we let him go when he was so solidly good, if not great ( a bit like Maguire)
The Improvement of Harry Maguire
- Thread starter RashyForPM
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
No way.
They're both so lethargic that we'd be so exposed on the counter it's not even funny.
As fo Maguire's improvement. He's still too inconsistent.
Take the Bailly block away vs Villa - who did the feck up before that chance appeared for Villa?
He has to do so much better to receive such praise.
So far he's had one really good performance and that was vs Everton
People will tell you your wrong about this because of their irrational hate for Smalling but your right.
Smalling is definitely better than Axel, Bailly and Lindelof. The latter isn’t much worse than Smalling but the pace of Smalling would be of real benefit to Maguire.
Chris is better in the air than the three of those as well, by a distance.
I have no idea why we didn’t at least try that partnership, on paper it’s the most natural fit for Maguire and Smalling has shown in Italy thats he's not the donkey people make him out to be here.
Smalling had nearly a decade to prove himself. We had to move on.
Agreed. not saying he was amazing but he was always solid enough, fast and great aerially. We also don't need a ball playing CB given how we play for all the talk of one.
Probably one of our most consistent players over the last decade so not really sure what to respond here. As above, he was never going to be world class but rapid, good aerially, strong and would complement our current setup. Not a huge issue he left, I do remember how bad some of his passes were but I do think he's better than Lindelof/worse than fit Bailly for our setup, just weird how quick we decided he wasn't a fit.
It did seem odd that ole didn't favour smalling because of his lack of ability on the ball and yet he brought awb for right back position and continually uses mctominay and fred in the same 11who aren't exactly the most gifted players on the ball?
He's been the same level since he joined: a very, very good defender who will usually give you a commanding performance but who has the odd mistake/lapse in judgement here and there (like most defenders).He and Lindelof are very decent players.
His best feature is his fitness though which is incredible. After years of Smalling, Rojo, Jones, Evans, Bailly, it's just so nice to have a first choice defender who is always fit. I'm not sure that he'll ever be considered 'world class' but i'm starting to think that the over paying on the transfer fee was justified on fitness alone considering our difficulties in that area.
His best feature is his fitness though which is incredible. After years of Smalling, Rojo, Jones, Evans, Bailly, it's just so nice to have a first choice defender who is always fit. I'm not sure that he'll ever be considered 'world class' but i'm starting to think that the over paying on the transfer fee was justified on fitness alone considering our difficulties in that area.
The great thing about Maguire is that he's consistently good and easy to build around.
- If there was a world class level for staying fit, Maguire would up there.
- Practically without equal in the air from a defensive perspective. No one is going to bully him out of a header.
- Reliable with the ball at his feet. If he loses the ball, it's usually because he took a risk with a long pass.
- Good positioning means his lack of pace is partially made up for and means he doesn't have to take high risk tackles to make up for his own errors.
- Not super-proactive. He's got an imposing presence but doesn't have an all-action style. This actually makes sense because he lacks pace and needs to be mindful of his positioning rather than running around trying to make things happen. Therefore, a more proactive partner suits him well.
- Lacks pace. As established, he's a mountain that plods along. A quick, proactive centerback partner at least gives very clear guidelines when looking for the ideal partnership. This is important not just to cover Maguire's lack of pace, but to allow the team to play higher up the pitch.
- Inconsistent with heading the ball into goal. He's got some technique that needs sorting out to get the ball in with more verve. Just having a slabhead doesn't make you Cavani.
- The bad quality which cannot be made up for easily is that he's iffy one on one against pacy, tricky defenders.
Yes I was actually thinking the same - was wondering if worth starting a thread on that but am resigned to the fact it would inevitably become an Ole in versus out thread.
Essentially I think we have the least technical team of the 'big 6' but one of the most physical - even someone like Bruno is highly erratic with his passing, control and shooting and I'd say only Maguire, Shaw, Pogba, Martial are very obviously (and consistently) above average technically from their position from our regular starters. I'm not sure if that's Ole's plan or just born of necessity but it does seem the case when I think of DDG, AWB, Fred, McT, arguably Rashford on current form in particular being very limited compared their direct rivals in their positions. Rashford harsh as probably more his decision making than actual technical ability which is good, if erratic.
Hes the best of an average/above average bunch. His biggest asset is he doesnt get injured which is a massive plus at Utd. I think Bailley is the better defender, just cant keep fit, so Maguire shades it overall. Hes starting to score a few now though. Looking at it another way, If you were looking at CD in the premier era for Utd, he wouldnt be top 6 for me. Bruce Pallister Stam Johnsen Rio Vidic all a lot better.
Who proved themselves more than Smalling in that time?
The point being we've kept dross and got rid of what was our best defender prior to Maguire arriving and ironically the one that would best suit Maguire as a partner.
I think you've got rose coloured glasses on mate. He could never cement his place as the successor to Rio as Fergie had planned. He was inconsistent and never proved himself to be a top player. Add to this his injury record then it was obvious Ole needed to get rid.
Just because the rest were shit doesn't mean Smalling gets a free pass. The other crap defenders have been moved on, apart from sicknote Jones who nobody would buy.
Bailly, Lindeloff and Maguire are all better defenders than smalling
I posted this in his performance thread:
He's missed way too many good chances at corners but I must say he really is phenomenal to got on the end of corners, especially the ones from our left hand side.
I'm calling it, next season he'll score 8 goals.
I'm not really sure though why we bother having all our other players in the box, they're not doing anything except maybe Pogba. They could just as well all hang back in case of a counter attack, in the off chance of Harry not connecting with the corner.
He's missed way too many good chances at corners but I must say he really is phenomenal to got on the end of corners, especially the ones from our left hand side.
I'm calling it, next season he'll score 8 goals.
I'm not really sure though why we bother having all our other players in the box, they're not doing anything except maybe Pogba. They could just as well all hang back in case of a counter attack, in the off chance of Harry not connecting with the corner.
Anyone who has watched us over the last 18 months knows that with Maguire in our defence, we need a quick defender alongside him for recovery and coverage. If it were not for his injuries and propensity to drop howlers, Bailly would be that partner but as it is, having to put Lindeloff in just makes the whole defence weaker.
This also affects our tactics as we cant maintain a high line and drop back to our 18 yard box, meaning the midfield becomes deeper (to pick up the ball as we rather poorly attempt to play out of the back!) widening the gap with the forwards as their natural inclination is to run at the defenders and we never attempt to make long passes (or at least accurately at any rate). The experiment with 3 central defenders failed as we just don't have the full backs to complement this formation. Lindeloff won't transform into a speed merchant and Bailly prob won't cut out the mistakes so the only option is to bring someone else in!
This also affects our tactics as we cant maintain a high line and drop back to our 18 yard box, meaning the midfield becomes deeper (to pick up the ball as we rather poorly attempt to play out of the back!) widening the gap with the forwards as their natural inclination is to run at the defenders and we never attempt to make long passes (or at least accurately at any rate). The experiment with 3 central defenders failed as we just don't have the full backs to complement this formation. Lindeloff won't transform into a speed merchant and Bailly prob won't cut out the mistakes so the only option is to bring someone else in!
If anything I think I’m going too much the other way. He was very consistent, even if that level wasn’t incredible, and I can’t think of a time he was consistently bad. One off errors, sure, but if we’re going to splurge money on Maguire, you don’t have to be a scout to see his mobility issues and so my point is there must have been something behind the scenes (Smalling wanting to move, Ole not liking him or whatever) because it seems such a logical match on paper.
At the time I think we assumed Bailey would not be always injured and Lindelof would kick on but, in reality, we’ve still got big question marks re CB.
Seriously? Bailly is better than Smalling?
Smalling is better than both, Maguire I agree is a level above Smalling.
I’m not saying Smalling is an elite centre back but what we have now (aside from Maguire) are worse than him.
Bailly has two good games and then does something idiotic or his glass body gets injured again, Lindelöf is an average CB, not bad but certainly nothing special and the point is Smalling has better traits than the latter to suit Maguire.
We should have gotten rid of Bailly, Jones and Rojo and Kept Smalling to battle it out with Lindelöf as Maguires partner. I’d wager Smalling would be winning that battle.
Smalling is just a better fit than Lindelof:
He’s not injury prone, better in the air, quicker, better one v one, better at defending set pieces.
Everything we are looking for in a new CB signing to replace Lindelof might I add.
Clearly fans can view things differently.
However, I think fact the only offers Smalling could get were loans deals in Serie A show how he's viewed within the game.
I shudder to think how crap we'd be at defending crosses without him
feels like he's the only one who wins any headers at times
feels like he's the only one who wins any headers at times
Maguire has done well and I would say he is one of the best CBs in the league. What makes him stand out is his aerial dominance. We don’t have any other player who is dominant in the air. Then he has some bad sides and need someone to clean up behind him.
Also, when you claim that Maguire has better defensive stats than all the other defenders, it is not smart because we can actually quite easily check it and find that it is not true.
Of our centrebacks:
Maguire has most interceptions.
Lindelof has most clearances.
Lindelof has most tackles.
Bailly has most blocked shots.
I don’t have the official data for defensive aerials but I would assume Maguire has most defensive aerials.
It could very well be Upamecano warming the bench.
Also, when you claim that Maguire has better defensive stats than all the other defenders, it is not smart because we can actually quite easily check it and find that it is not true.
Of our centrebacks:
Maguire has most interceptions.
Lindelof has most clearances.
Lindelof has most tackles.
Bailly has most blocked shots.
I don’t have the official data for defensive aerials but I would assume Maguire has most defensive aerials.
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Not rating Maguire is a style or a fashion.
Maybe he isnt worth 80 million but neither is Neymar worth what PSG payed for him. Neither is ousmane dembele or coutinho.
The money is the thing that fans and people should think about the least in dreams or nightmares because ultimately we have minimal influence on what is payed and who its payed for.
Paying 80 million for maguire is better than buying Darmian , Fellaini, Rojo, Bebe and more- ultimately for the same price for all those wasted transfers we have gotten a better one for the price of all.
Talk about the football, crying about Maguire not being worth 80 million is like crying at your next door neighbour who spent a million on a Ferrari. Value the product rather than the price.
To alot of us a Ferrari is not worth the price because we would spend that money on a wide variety of things than just a car. United are a business with a lot of money and needed to buy something that was guaranteed to work, the price was purely Leicester City.
Maybe he isnt worth 80 million but neither is Neymar worth what PSG payed for him. Neither is ousmane dembele or coutinho.
The money is the thing that fans and people should think about the least in dreams or nightmares because ultimately we have minimal influence on what is payed and who its payed for.
Paying 80 million for maguire is better than buying Darmian , Fellaini, Rojo, Bebe and more- ultimately for the same price for all those wasted transfers we have gotten a better one for the price of all.
Talk about the football, crying about Maguire not being worth 80 million is like crying at your next door neighbour who spent a million on a Ferrari. Value the product rather than the price.
To alot of us a Ferrari is not worth the price because we would spend that money on a wide variety of things than just a car. United are a business with a lot of money and needed to buy something that was guaranteed to work, the price was purely Leicester City.
Ignoring the few comical goals we've conceded this season, I've had little issues with our defence actually. Maguire makes me feel relatively safe, Shaw has been superb, Lindelof has been OK, its only AWB who's concerned me somewhat but I think he'll kick on if we actually give him some competition.
Its our attack and midfield that have concerned me more tbh. Particularly our front 3.
Its our attack and midfield that have concerned me more tbh. Particularly our front 3.
Regarding not injury prone. He’s been out quite a lot this season. Most likely because he is getting older. I watch Roma every now and then and I am not impressed with what I’ve seen. I don’t see us at the top of the table if he had played as he is a level below Lindelof, Maguire and Bailly.
This is his last match. Not great defending. Look especially at the goal at 3.00 but also not great defending overall.
Also against Inter he did some poor things including failing to defend a corner,
He is not bad but he is not better than what we have.
Exactly, this is a classic case of hate the players when they play for Manutd, cry about them when they leave.
Smalling has made some comical errors in Serie A. Unless you watch 90 mins every game, I would urge fans not to compare him with Lindelof.
Lindelof, with all his flaws is still a good CB. Not the best but he would be in most squads as a backup CB.
I think we probably have 3 of England's back 4 in our starting defence at the minute. Maguire, Shaw and AWB. Maguire has been solid, he's not without his weaknesses but what player ever is?
Basically zero chance Wan-Bissaka makes the squad for the Euros, let alone the first XI.
Spot on. What a player is bought for is irrelevant. What matters is how they perform on the pitch. What they were sold or bought for is between the buying and selling club and not the responsibility of the player.
I imagined we would be getting a vocal centre-half like a Steve Bruce, whose organisational and leadership skills would compensate for lack of pace especially when he was immediately made captain. So I'm most disappointed how quiet he is. When we concede he just ends up with a sulky look on his face, rather than berating or encouraging team mates. That 2nd goal to Sheffield United when he left it to De Gea he should have screamed to boot it out. His reading of the game is also a bit suspect as he often has to commit blatant fouls to compensate for lack of pace. I genuinely rate him lower than Johnny Evans so we could have saved £80 million without losing that much in defence. If you look at great organisers they can make the whole defence better, like Van Dijk or Rio Ferdinand. I don't think Maguire really raises the performance of his partners, Lindelof, Bailly and Tuanzebe have all looked shaky next to him whereas Liverpool are fielding Fabinho or Henderson in defence and they seem to be able to effectively keep things tight and in shape.
He seemed to be less vocal than when he arrived to me. I remember when we first started having games behind close doors and you'd hear him shouting, now not so much. Him and De Gea aren't a good combo in that department.
He's not comfortably the best defender in a team with Shaw and AWB.
Maguire is pretty good. The fact that he isn't top class and cost an enormous sum always counts against. But he's the pick of our centre backs right now.
If I had to pick one of our defenders, out of the lot, I'd go for Shaw. Technically excellent, defensively strong.
Yeah of course, we all have our own opinion.
His move to Serie A only reinforces the opinion that he's no donkey. He was one of the best defenders in his first season there hence their determination to sign him permanently.
I think we and other clubs missed a trick on Smalling. He was partnered with the likes of Jones in his time here and whilst not immune to the odd feck up (all defenders are) he was by far the most reliable CB we had. It just makes no sense to me that Smalling wasn't tried next to Maguire before shipping him out. Central defence hasn't exactly flourished since he left.
Even if not in quality, at least we're trying to get our money's worth by playing him every single minute of every single game.
Anyways, it's very RedCafe like to have a specific thread to highlight his performance where there hasn't been anything special. Mind you, I'm not saying that he hasn't been good. But he hasn't been 'threadworthy' good.
He does the bare minimum, isn't a fear inducing defender, misses occasional sitters and is usually one awful game away from being described as the biggest waste of money the game has ever seen.
He is an alright defender. Nothing more, nothing less.
Anyways, it's very RedCafe like to have a specific thread to highlight his performance where there hasn't been anything special. Mind you, I'm not saying that he hasn't been good. But he hasn't been 'threadworthy' good.
He does the bare minimum, isn't a fear inducing defender, misses occasional sitters and is usually one awful game away from being described as the biggest waste of money the game has ever seen.
He is an alright defender. Nothing more, nothing less.
Thank God we have the fearless energetic proactive leader, *checks notes*... Victor Lindelöf.
Wrong:
- The only thing Harry has done well is not being injured.
- no agility,
- not very smart,
- barely drives forward efficiently,
- is our captain but cannot lead
- fails at every attempt at goal almost and his defence headers only work when the ball is in his path
- is out of position a lot of the time or has the opposition glide past him.
Right:
- He is slow
- cannot play with another slow defender,
- needs a fast defender to cover him,
- he takes an age to move
I think we would all agree we overpaid but what would people have deemed a fair price for Maguire in hindsight?
Our hands were slightly tied by a number of factors increasing the transfer fee (mainly City’s interest creating a genuine £60 million+ market for him) but it was our own public desperation for a CB that sealed the expensive deal.
Our hands were slightly tied by a number of factors increasing the transfer fee (mainly City’s interest creating a genuine £60 million+ market for him) but it was our own public desperation for a CB that sealed the expensive deal.
First of all, conceding goals is solely down to one CB? didn't realise that when you defend with 1 not 11, no wonder we concede so many goals.
The attitude of fans that defending is by one man only shows complete lack of football knowledge. You count 5 mistakes a game? is mis placing a mistake? if so then the rest of them make 20 a game.
A clear example, Martial and Rashford V SU, if they realised that defending is part of a team game, we wouldn't have conceded the 2nd goal or other chances.
Now, if he has no qualities as a CB, let me compare him to a CB that everyone is creaming themselves over.
| Maguire | Dias | |
| Passing Accuracy | 86 % | 93% |
| Duels won % | 66.7 | 66.8 |
| Ariel duels won % | 76.1 | 68.4 |
| Recoveries | 124 | 82 |
| Tackles won % | 52 | 66 |
| Interceptions | 40 | 18 |
Who gets in RB ahead of him? I'm not an england fan, I just base it off watching the prem each week. I don't see a better RB in the league thats English at the minute.
I'd say a fair amount of us knew we were paying over the odds even before he was signed. We always do pay over the odds, not just Maguire.
I notice he is beginning to dribble the ball out of defence which i love to see. There is nothing more magical than seeing a centreback do that. Hopefully he continues to grow into the aura which a Man United defender and captain should have
I thought Shaw was our best defender this season, but Maguire is easily our best CB.