In regards to the players you listed not being dishonest (really don’t like that term here) Eriksen, Mount & Antony have regularly been benched for the players who should have been moved on ages ago. ETH’s biggest issue is his signings haven’t set the standard people claim he’s the man to install. Fight with limited quality is a bit pointless for our aims.
The leaks against the manager 2023 edition
- Thread starter Bastian
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100%. Also shows how out of touch players are with reality and what little respect they have for fans.
He needs to show he's in charge first by dropping the lazy fecks. Starting with Rashford and Martial
Drop them and play the kids. Can't do any worse than what's being served up at the moment
He's toast. I'm yet to see a manager recover from losing the dressing room. I think he's trying to do the right thing by raising the standards in training etc, but if you can't back this up with results, those who don't like it will turn. He really needed to get his signings right, and because he failed to do so, he has no legs to stand on at the moment. He isn't as charismatic as Pep or Klopp to get the players to buy into whatever he's doing, even if it was the right thing.
He feels a bit like a Benitez unfortunately. I hate seeing him getting sacked, but I think he's overall approach to rebuilding this team has failed.
He feels a bit like a Benitez unfortunately. I hate seeing him getting sacked, but I think he's overall approach to rebuilding this team has failed.
This is usually the last nail in the coffin for any manager. If he drops his big players now he'll lose everyone, because we don't have adequate depth to get positive results. Either way he's fecked.
If he's fecked either way then he should drop them to make a point
Why? If you give less than what you can you are cheating your teammates. And if you are earning 2-3x as much as them you will obviously have a toxic environment. The absolute basic requirement is give all you've got. Sometimes that's not enough, but you won't be faulted for being dishonest.
Mount and Hojlund are the really questionable ones. At least with Antony there was a sensible plan for how to use him and an excuse that Erik hadn’t yet had much experience of the premier league.
It make no difference if the results aren't there. You could say that none of his signings are lacking in effort, but this isn't a championship club, you need both quality and effort. If the signings that were supposed to transform the club are failing, other players will take note of that.
Oh my god this sh*t has got to stop!!
I'm so tired of these players man.
I'm so tired of these players man.
I wrote a lengthy response, per my usual rebuttals but it will derail this thread.
I will say, I believe playing badly can often be mistaken for what you’d term dishonesty. I don’t believe players go out wanting to play badly, I do believe some players succumb to obstacles in games far quicker than others though.
Again, I don't think ETH is blameless in this whole situation, but I've got a lot of leeway for him given the general shit show the club is.
If you appoint a manager with a playing philosophy that you know does not suit a lot of the current squad you simply have to back him. He's not some pragmatic world beater who can tailor his side according to the demands of the week. Which short-term might get some fans all warm and cozy, but long-term leads us nowhere. He shifted Ronaldo which I think was a pretty major deal, and he didn't show him any disrespect, which could have backfired. Ronnie threw a fit on sleaze tv and that was that. He made a big call too in the summer - and I hold the club responsible for how it was handled - in shift Dave, which we desperately needed to do. He also tried to get rid of Maguire, McTominay and Sancho, the club briefed the press of their availability two times during the summer with a wish list of prices but then did not proceed aggressively enough with it, leaving a relatively new manager with players the club openly wanted to get rid of. Pretty terrible management from the club. Thankfully, two of them actually train well enough but we don't know if they are the ones speaking to cnuts like Luckhurst. Sancho showed his true colours.
I don't recall anyone saying his transfers were shite prior to the League Cup final last season. Our quality was thin and he definitely did a bit of an Ole and ran them into the ground - coupled with the World Cup mid-season disaster, and voila, we had players gassed crossing the finishing line.
OK, so what happens the following summer? The club have an unmitigated disaster in handling the Greenwood situation, leaving us completely exposed chasing a striker and incurring no small amounts of negative press, which sets the tone for the start of the season, having just completed an absolutely mindlessly stupid pre-season - bringing to mind van Gaal's term "commercial club" - which knackered the players. In that pre-season the player who had most people excited was injured. Then we suffer the injury to Shaw and Martinez, absolutely fundamental players to how ETH wants to play out from the back and keep balance to our play. The striker we signed arrived injured. The whole Greenwood thing comes back in the form of Antony being accused of domestic violence and various stories start cropping up like a paedo being in the director's box and a host of new shite surrounds the club. This is all fairly recent, mind.
And another thing. If you appoint a manager to revolutionise the way the team plays, you cannot demand performances and results from the get go. It is a long-term plan. Hence, it's a much slower progression - if at all - if he's having to be pragmatic most of the time. That's where ruthlessness needs to be the line for the manager and the hierarchy. And yet, we've seen ETH come out again and again with his line of "we need to win every match" which I think is the correct mentality internally, but pretty unhelpful added pressure publicly. He's trying to raise the standards, but you can only do so much with a group of entitled mercenaries.
We saw how ill-prepared this whole appointment was when we did not secure targets early and get people out the door early. It was all drawn out and hence massively overpriced and we still carry loads of players that don't fit. And he gets the blame.
A new manager right now will either be some status quo manager who can be pragmatic with the players available or another progressive manager who will suffer the same fate, in my view.
But where I'm at with it with ETH is that I want to see more bravery from him, to be more ruthless and go with players who carry out tactical instructions. It's easy to say from my armchair view, but I saw Mejbri run his socks off for him, Gore too. Garnacho tracks back much much better than Rashford does and that wonder goal will likely help him seal that left wing spot anyway.
I said before that I understood him being desperate to get Rashford going given his goal tally last season, but his out of possession work is just so infuriatingly unacceptable that he has to drop him. And every time he doesn't give them the silk glove treatment we get a new batch of complaints from cnuts like Luckhurst and the other dogs at the press conferences who take more and more liberties. And that's my other criticism, I want him to treat them with the contempt they deserve and show a healthy level of self-respect, not just for himself, but for the club. We all know no one else at the club can do so.
If Ratcliffe's people are in situ prior to middle of January I want him to be backed in getting players out of the door, just to clear the air at the club. Outgoings are more important than incomings, though both are obviously very important. He needs another striker to take the burden of the kid and he needs a defender who can hold a high line, given Varane's horrific fitness record. Anything else is a bonus.
Fair enough. I don't think they intend to play badly either. But if you've not given the required effort you cannot say you've been honest. Not tracking back is a clear example of this, not pressing when you are doing that as a group. These are clear examples. I don't think Maguire is dishonest. He always puts his body on the line. He doesn't suit ETH's style in the slightest, but I don't fault him for lack of trying.
Another example is always hiding in a 50/50.
Their manager needs to be more touchy feely is why they're underperforming?
I mean, feck these guys, gut the whole fecking squad ASAP.
Same shit under how many managers now?
"My manager doesn't think about my feelings enough, that's why I can't track a runner like a 12 year old would."
I mean, feck these guys, gut the whole fecking squad ASAP.
Same shit under how many managers now?
"My manager doesn't think about my feelings enough, that's why I can't track a runner like a 12 year old would."
Seriously. WTF is Martial still doing at MUFC? I cannot understand it, after all these years. I totall agree with you btw and I’m 100% behind our manager.
It's a complex task to deal 25 or so teenagers and young men from all over the world. Fergie said himself that he couldn't be the same with every player and some needed an arm round their shoulder. That's just a simple fact of life, everyone is different.
I can 100% believe these things are Issue because I could see it all coming a mile off. A personality like ETH will only connect with a small amount of players. The likes of Howe, Klopp and others get their players to perform by backing them, building them up, being their mate at times.
Everyone seems to have reacted badly towards the players on this but I think there could be weight behind all of it. You can run too much on training. You can have players that don't react well to an authoritarian approach. If you had a young CR7 under ETH then the chances are that he wouldn't have been the same player. Fergie was like a father figure to him and I don't think Ten Hag has it in him to be that way.
Here is the underlying cause that I don’t think people pay enough attention to:
Problem with a PL football team is that you can only replace players 2x a year. And even then there is no guarantee, they might not be bought and you might be stuck with them for another season/few months.
So lousy players with the wrong attitude stick around. You can’t “fire” them and meanwhile they poison culture. And then you actually have to use them and allow them to be part of the team. You have no choice, you can’t exclude a number of players like with Sancho, you need a playing 11 + backup.
If it was a workplace, you could just fire the underperformers and hire new ones on the go, gradually and relatively quickly building a better team.
ETH hasn't proven he's good enough to manage United though. It's all well and good believing that all the players are bad and the club need to give a manager everything, but that mentality is exactly what has brought us here in the first place. Forget philosophy, no other club has these issues moving from one manager to the next in terms of playing philosophies. Good players are good players and every manager wants them. Casemiro, Varane, Mount, Bruno, Rashford, Licha, Shaw is a fantastic core to have and are all players capable of playing for top sides. They've done so internationally. Yet these managers come to United telling us that unless they have the perfect squad, they simply can't play good football.
Last season we had Sabitzer in our team. Bayern managed to play good football with him in a two man midfield. We got him and all of a sudden appeared to be lightweight. What we've been seeing on the pitch for the last ten years has been far more than the players. Unfortunately, their the ones having to go on the pitch and execute plans that aren't working effectively. For ten years, managers haven't been able to create chances consistently or control games. For those ten years, despite having full access to transfer funds, they've signed players who didn't help these issues. For ten years we've been telling managers that they'll get as much power and support as possible with a plan in mind for them to be our next great manager. For ten years they've consistently failed to show they can even get the different team of players to play in anyway resembling attacking football. All of them except Moyes have had massive departures matched with lots of money spent on signings. They've all received the funds to have a decent team, yet have still turned back and the blame has been placed on their players, some of whom are their own signings. We have a squad of 20 + players, no team would ever sell their entire squad, its not basketball. Yet we've done more than most in letting players go, even at a financial cost to the club. Yet because Shaw, Lindelof, Martial, Bruno, Rashford and Maguire are still at the club, it's the players again. Yet Shaw has been injured and hasn't been identified as a complainant, Bruno has always worked hard, Maguire has been a brilliant professional through the travails of the last 2 seasons and Lindelof despite his lack of quality has always been well mannered ( even captaining Sweden.
Casemiro and Varane are clearly dissatisfied and both have been considered consummate professionals in their careers. Why? Because any player with ambition would not allow their reputation be diminished due to the poor quality of their coach. They won't blindly follow directions that don't make sense and would question things if they are not working. What bemuses me about this is that the United players under Fergie would have had an uproar if the team were producing the type of performances we've had over the last ten years. Keane would have had majore issues with Ten Haag. As would Neville and Rio. Just like the Chelsea players did after Jose. Why? Because they had standards and didn't want them to drop on the field due to the lack of tactical and coaching quality of the manager. Ferguson was a one off and people have to accept the fact that players won't agree with a manager if he isn't performing. Maybe, as fans, instead of looking at the players as spoilt brats, listening to those complaints might actually help us assess what the problems are in our play. Ten Haag should be questioned by the players as he has not earned the maintenance of their support. It's that simple. He wasn't born manager and wasting time with him will ultimately affect the relationship good players have with the club, just like having a bad boss would do to employees in an organization. Imagine you had a boss that consistently made poor decisions, yet people kept blaming his direct reports, as they should be able to know what to do. The manager gets away with poor communication, poor planning and can go to the press and complain about his staff with hardly any pushback. Leaks and rumours would start occuring. If they could, staff would start leaving and the rumours would spread around the company. That's why we have leaks, because its a sign that things aren't working in the football department. Yet people essentially are telling the players to shut up and play without actually taking anything into consideration. It's the managers. Players can't leave on their own accord, but I'm sure over the years, if they had a choice, there would be a high turnover of our most talented players as the club and fans actually to have the players' interests in mind.
Studying SAF, you see the signs of management by fear. The players did not want to disappoint him, they knew it would cost dearly.
SAF wanted specific types of players with the right attitude, strong mentality that could take the blunt feedback and hard hits. Get knocked down and they would stand up and continue.
Sure, SAF supported them, helped them, was kind, was a father figure and so on. It wasn’t unconditional. If you didn’t live by his principles and couldn’t take the hits, you were out.
Yes, this is a really good post post that recognises the complexity of the situation but has some realistic proposals for improving it. Let’s hope Ratcliffe reads it.
The problem with the posts about ETH trying to change the way we play is that he simply hasn’t done a good job of doing so. He’s admitted that he’s not trying to bring in the style we appointed him for and the system he is trying to play simply doesn’t work.
Given the above, it’s unsurprising that the players aren’t happy. They look confused on the pitch. The players I suspect are leading this are Casemiro and Varane - if you look at the difference between Casemiro last season and before his injury this season, it’s obvious he wasn’t convinced by what Erik was trying to do. They are obviously going to get a lot of support from other players given their history.
When you then add in the mess ETH made of the Sancho situation (I appreciate he gets a lot of support on here for it but I doubt the players were impressed with the way he handled it) and the bizarre signings we made in the Summer, it’s a very difficult situation. I’m surprised if he still has half the players on board if I’m honest. He has to get the system right on the pitch to have a chance of getting the players back on side.
Given the above, it’s unsurprising that the players aren’t happy. They look confused on the pitch. The players I suspect are leading this are Casemiro and Varane - if you look at the difference between Casemiro last season and before his injury this season, it’s obvious he wasn’t convinced by what Erik was trying to do. They are obviously going to get a lot of support from other players given their history.
When you then add in the mess ETH made of the Sancho situation (I appreciate he gets a lot of support on here for it but I doubt the players were impressed with the way he handled it) and the bizarre signings we made in the Summer, it’s a very difficult situation. I’m surprised if he still has half the players on board if I’m honest. He has to get the system right on the pitch to have a chance of getting the players back on side.
Then it's a case of The Players who Cried Wolf.
Enough is enough and at this point I don't actually care if ETH is over working them or whatever. We need to stand by a manager FFS and not over indulged players this time.
And at this point you need a strong DoF to assess the situation, who has the knowledge and power to judge what is going on and make the right decision. If the players are right, the manager has to be either sacked or (at first) convinced to change his training. If the players are in the wrong, identify the ones who create trouble and take them out of the squad (of course together with the manager - but point is, once they are taken out of the first team squad they are no longer the responsibility of the first team manager, so that's why the DoF has to be involved here). It rarely happens that a club has to banish multiple players at the same time for their attitude and behaviour, but there are examples for this throughout Europe and I wouldn't be surprised if United currently is in such a situation.
Nonetheless I strongly disagree with anyone who says "just back the manager" or "just sack the manager" based on these reports.
He has dropped them before and we were still rubbish.
He obviously needs to drop them again but just pointing out we won't be good because of it.
They are both important squad players. We only have 2 strikers and a few wingers
Isn't it a bit of dilemma? If players don't buy into whatever manager's selling then how does he get result?
I doubt Pep & Klopp would success here, not with this structure. The key is to make it clear players are disposable, manager is not. At United, we struggle to sell teabag which lead to players power.
Ole talked about it. He tried to do a culture reset but at the end of his tenure, it went back to where he started. And we see it's happening again, under different manager.
I honestly think United is fecked as a football club. There's no single silver bullet for this. Even when you have a manager whom tried to do all the right stuff, things still went wrong.
INEOS and SJR are our last Hail Mary but there's no telling they'll get it right.
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At first you sell an idea, than the players try it, get results and as long as this works you are cruising. When you stop getting results you either need to convince the players why the idea is still right, or you need a new or at least slightly changed idea how to play.
It feels like this is the point EtH now is failing at, he doesn't change his idea and isn't getting enough results any more.
I would say that our best games this season has been the ones without Rashford.
How is it though? We've bought quite a few players already under ETH and the main one's that seem to have fallen out with him are the ones he signed. So I don't see how we can say it's the same players under previous managers. It's like Trigger's brush this squad.
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Luckhurst with another piece this morning, apparently the 'time-served' players are questioning all of ETH's signings now, like Hojlund
My bet it was Rashford. The media started questioning him, he leaked stuffs.
Time served? Would that be the ones that have been stinking the place out for several years now and we’re unable to shift them? Yeah, their opinion on what a quality player is holds zero weight.
Goodness I am getting sick of this lot and their entourages/hangers on.
He would be in no position to criticise looking at his efforts on the pitch. Is that why some are not passing the ball to the kid?
Starting to think that's it's always been Rashford.
Yay, I see the blame game has started again 
Let's play leak bingo: Rashford: check, Maguire: check, Sancho: check, any English player: check,
So predictable,
Let's play leak bingo: Rashford: check, Maguire: check, Sancho: check, any English player: check,
So predictable,
The MEN banned from today’s press conference
https://x.com/samuelluckhurst/status/1731994005955629198?s=46
https://x.com/samuelluckhurst/status/1731994005955629198?s=46
Great post, unfortunately far too many fans simply won't get this or refuse to acknowledge the players have a side to this story too. Rangnick really was a toxic influence on this fanbase the way he weaponized it against the players, and now ETH is doing the same, albeit in a more subtle way.
Questioning the signing of Hojlund and then leaking it to the press is absolutely the lowest of the low.
He's a kid who is struggling but working his bollocks off, but not only that he's the joint top scorer in the Champions League!
None of the other losers in the squad have shown anywhere near the fortitude of this kid beyond perhaps Harry Maguire or, at a push, Bruno/Garnacho so they can fecking do one, whoever they are.
He's a kid who is struggling but working his bollocks off, but not only that he's the joint top scorer in the Champions League!
None of the other losers in the squad have shown anywhere near the fortitude of this kid beyond perhaps Harry Maguire or, at a push, Bruno/Garnacho so they can fecking do one, whoever they are.
Really?
You think he's fallen out with Martinez, Antony, Onana, Malacia, Casemiro, Eriksen, Amrabat, Højlund, Reguilon, Mount...?
Or is it more likely he's fallen out with Martial, Rashford, Sancho?