Television The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

[Fully Fledged]

I suspected this after the second episode - almost certain now.

Spoiler

I think it will be an anti-Aragorn storyline, falling to the dark side and all that.

Yeah. I get that vibe from him.

 

[glazed]

Plus this is arguably particularly well suited to a colourblind casting approach given characters are already divided into fantasy races (elf, dwarf, hobbit, etc.). I'm not sure there's much storytelling need for consistency of appearance within each of those groups beyond the features that identify the fantasy race they belong to.

Well it depends on the audience a bit. Most people associate medieval times with racial homogeniety within small populations but as none of us were there it's a bit hard to say. And really who cares? As I say if this were hardcore Tolkien I would prefer some kind of an explanation for a black elf but it isn't so I don't. Harefoots are fine as they were known to be dark skinned and apparently they migrate. Dwarves are a tricky one but given we know so little about their women it seems perfectly reasonable to suggest they might be different in appearance to the males. And men are men so that's all good.

I'm pretty sure that

Spoiler

He's The Witch King

That person comes from the far north though. We will see.

 

[Gehrman]

I'm pretty sure that

Spoiler

He's The Witch King

Spoiler

I think so too. But wasn't he a sorcerer before he became a Nazgul as well?

 

[Fully Fledged]

Spoiler

I think so too. But wasn't he a sorcerer before he became a Nazgul as well?

Spoiler

Galadriel's was also a Sorcerer and married with kids. This isn't following the source material completely.

 

[glazed]

This isn't following the source material completely.

Or indeed at all. But they are really going out of their way to make us think

Spoiler

Sauron is Adar

so he obviously isn't and why the heavy handed misdirection if he isn't someone else

 

[Gehrman]

Well it's not since the one elf mentioned by Tolkien to have darker skin, the other elves thought he was a half orc. But end of the day there's a lot of unconscious bias in Tolkien's writing and that's just because of the subject matter and when it was written. You could easily construct an argument that his writing is itself racist by modern standards and I wouldn't disagree with it.

However I don't see this as authentic Tolkien so it just isn't important. There are so many other things you could quibble with it seems weird to pick out race.

I found this a good read.

Anyway, I have no problem with elves being white in tolkiens writings and I have no problem with some of them being black in modern adaptions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_and_race

 

[Mercurial]

Spoiler: Spolierinos

Adar seem more like a taskmaster level baddie, would be odd if that was Souron and not discovered by Galadriel

 

[Mercurial]

It's such bad fan fiction, it's like a guilty pleasure. Go back and watch it again and it's very obvious if you know your Second Age Tolkien history that Halbrand is

Spoiler

Sauron

The narrative is scattered with huge clues.

Spoiler

First thought too about this, but on third EP not as sure

 

[glazed]

I found this a good read.

Anyway, I have no problem with elves being white in tolkiens writings and I have no problem with some of them being black in modern adaptions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_and_race

Interesting read. It omits the worst though - his open admission that he based dwarves on Jews. And then he made them secretive and with a weakness for gold. And with a weakness for unattainable blonde women. In other words he consciously imported the anti-semitic tropes of The Ring of the Nibelung

 

[Bobski]

Literally the only part of this I care about in Wheel of Time is the aiel being redheads. Other than that I couldn't care less that this village has some white people, black people, Asians, whatever. I'll never understand people whose viewing experiences are negatively impacted by that sort of thing. Unless colour is very specifically a part of the plot, it's the least important thing to worry about.

I don't think the Aiel necessarily had to be tall redheads, just the actor for Rand and the majority of the Aiel should have some similarities. Part of the reason why Jordan made the Aiel pale skinned redheads was to show something was strange in this world, people who look like that would not normally live in the middle of a desert waste.

I will admit to having too many pre conceived ideas about how the show should look, spent far too much time as kid daydreaming about an adaptation


To me, you establish diversity of cultures not by skin colour but by clothing, architecture, language/dialect, gestures, whatever. The Shienari were very obviously different from the Two Rivers people in the show, even though they both had some of the same mix of colours (though Shienar definitely did have more Asian-looking people).

They could have gone farther with that, but I agree in general terms, there is no point splitting up the map into different colour scales but then having no cultural differences, I think for short hand world building you could do both. One thing this show seriously needs is some decent world building(also, establishing the magic system, stop making the male characters dreadful) but why do that when you can waste an episode on Steppin or cringy oaths on the oathrod after a booty call episode.

I am getting angry just thinking about that show, fair enough, you are a great deal more positive about it than I am, and you are probably right that covid negatively impacted season one, but still, it should have been better.

 

[Bobski]

It’s like some executive was in the room and said, “look we got this beautiful horse whose life is worth more than any of yours, UHD cameras on the budget, and this angrily constipated Legolas lady who’s never smiled before so do something different with it. I don’t care how, make it happen.“

Beautiful woman in a beautiful dress on a beautiful horse in a beautiful location. What could go wrong, it will make a great shampoo commercial!

Wait, we are doing Rings of Power?

 

[Lecland07]

Spoiler

Sauron goes to Numenor where he charms everyone and takes over - making Pharazon (who was also seen in this episode) the King. Sauron is greatly skilled as a Smith so the whole joining the Smiths guild sequence was significant. The way he said he took the siggil off a dead man's body was fairly obviously saying he killed the real Halbrand - which would make sense if he is taking over that part of Middle Earth to build Barad-dûr. The way he mentioned that his whole family was killed in the war - well that's true when you consider who is family was. The main discrepancy is that Sauron had already forged the One Ring when he was taken to Numenor as a prisoner. I think they are rewriting that because Christopher Tolkien is dead and they can do what they like with the IP. Clearly Galdriel never went to Numenor in the Second Age or met Elendil there so we're far into the realms of fan fiction

Spoiler: Spoiler

There is one other clue: he turns around the situation around the situation in the tavern with just words. In the books, Sauron is supposed to be the deceiver.

 

[Gehrman]

Interesting read. It omits the worst though - his open admission that he based dwarves on Jews. And then he made them secretive and with a weakness for gold. And with a weakness for unattainable blonde women. In other words he consciously imported the anti-semitic tropes of The Ring of the Nibelung

Sauce?

 

[glazed]

Sauce?

Immense love of the artifact??? Worse than I remember....


Also this...

https://dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1172&context=mythlore

 

[Gehrman]

Immense love of the artifact??? Worse than I remember....


Also this...

https://dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1172&context=mythlore

Just asking. Have found some material now.

 

[glazed]

Just asking. Have found some material now.

So people swooning and asking for the smelling salts at the suggestion Tolkien intended his elves to be white is a bit silly. The man was up to his neck in racial symbolism. If he was around now he'd be cancelled faster than you can say J.K. Rowling.

 

[Stacks]

My reading is that he is not intended to be a black elf but that he is a black actor playing an elf that is no different to the other elves. This kind of colour blind casting has plenty of precedent and is nearly always perfectly acceptable and welcome. Personally I would find it a bit weird in an authentic Tolkien setting though, because heredity is so significant that ignoring it so blatantly without an explanation would take me out of the story, but then again this show has no real claim to be authentically Tolkien anyway so it doesn't really matter. It is what it is and should be taken as such.

its a reimagining of the LOTR world. like a "what if" as opposed to being loyal to Tolkien's version. Its not canon and thus not meant to just be a continuation of his work.

 

[Stacks]

So people swooning and asking for the smelling salts at the suggestion Tolkien intended his elves to be white is a bit silly. The man was up to his neck in racial symbolism. If he was around now he'd be cancelled faster than you can say J.K. Rowling.

As if J.K. Rowling was actually cancelled

 

[glazed]

its a reimagining of the LOTR world. like a "what if" as opposed to being loyal to Tolkien's version. Its not canon and thus not meant to just be a continuation of his work.

Fan fiction in other words.

 

[Mercurial]

My reading is that he is not intended to be a black elf but that he is a black actor playing an elf that is no different to the other elves. This kind of colour blind casting has plenty of precedent and is nearly always perfectly acceptable and welcome. Personally I would find it a bit weird in an authentic Tolkien setting though, because heredity is so significant that ignoring it so blatantly without an explanation would take me out of the story, but then again this show has no real claim to be authentically Tolkien anyway so it doesn't really matter. It is what it is and should be taken as such.

He is some other type of elf born on this side of the pond vs OG elf from the elf lands from what I read.

 

[harms]

Fan fiction in other words.

But not necessarily written by the fans.

 

[Stacks]

Fan fiction in other words.

YES! looking through this lens makes it far easier to interpret and should allow people to watch with more of an open mind. The main challenge will involve the cross over characters

 

[glazed]

He is some other type of elf born on this side of the pond vs OG elf from the elf lands from what I read.

I had a Jewish friend who, following a DNA test, recently discovered an old family tale that his great great grandmother had a child following an encounter with a Cossack which was most likely non-consensual, explaining her grandmother's blonde hair and blue eyes. Orcs were thought by many to do the same (to Galadriel's daughter most notoriously) so that might explain the unusual colouring if you really wanted a Tolkien safe explanation. Or maybe he was descended from half elves some other way. But it doesn't really make much sense.

He's basically a normal elf played by a black actor. The end.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I don't imagine this show had a 'color blind casting' approach. The characters who also show up in the movies have the same ethnicity here. Maybe 'advanced cataracts' casting approach.

Saw the first episode of this today, it was pretty good. Production values were insane.

 

[Spoony]

I'm enjoying this. And surely Halbrand can't be Sauron according to the time line and all that?

 

[Spoony]

Surely Adar is more likely to be Sauron?

 

[Fully Fledged]

...

Agreed.

 

[glazed]

I'm enjoying this. And surely can't be according to the time line and all that?

Well it makes no sense but that seems be where they are going with this. I hear

Spoiler

they're making him the end of season reveal and I don't see any scenario where it's interesting except this one. And the stated 'Galadriel learns humility' arc kind of requires it.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

….

Kindly feck off with giving away end of season reveals, please?

 

[glazed]

Kindly feck off with giving away end of season reveals, please?

Fixed soz. It's just a rumour and I have no info on what the actual reveal is.

 

[SuperiorXI]

Surely Adar is more likely to be Sauron?

Seems like it, that would be my bet so far.

Episode 3 actually felt boring, yeah the CGI was all pretty and stuff but without any quality writing behind it it gets old fast. Even the action sequence at the end was just all round "meh". If the quality doesn't improve in the next couple episodes I might just drop this as don't think it's for me.

 

[Godfather]

Just watching EP 3 and I don't think it's that bad. It's just that pretty much every scene with Galadriel sucks but afpart rom that it's fine

 

[harms]

Surely Adar is more likely to be Sauron?

Spoiler

He's the obvious choice but maybe too obvious — who knows how tempting it is to Bezos to go the GoT route and to play with viewers' expectations.

 

[glazed]

Spoiler

He's the obvious choice but maybe too obvious — who knows how tempting it is to Bezos to go the GoT route and to play with viewers' expectations.

Way too obvious

 

[tomaldinho1]

This is a really weird experience for me, I’m watching this series and loving what I see, the sets and scenery are genuinely incredible but that’s really all that is holding this together. It genuinely seems like they wrote the plot and dialogue as an after thought.

I think we’ve all accepted this shouldn’t be compared to the films but just as a stand alone show it’s only two engaging aspects are the visuals and guessing who Sauron and Meteor man will be so far for me.

 

[Solius]

I felt it’s been decent so far tbh. Don’t mind the length.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Where are all the hobbits?

 

[Eplel]

If he was around now he'd be cancelled faster than you can say J.K. Rowling.

Well today the cancelling squad has even targeted the knitting community, so that says nothing.

By his era's standards, what he says there is mild, pretty much every group of people had negative stereotypes tossed at them.

 

[sport2793]

Some of the dialogue is pretty bad. Also, the orc method of hiding seemed a bit silly. I had to laugh a bit when the camera zoomed out and showed this incredibly conspicuous "tunnel", with 100 meters of chopped down forest on both sides. Why didn't they just dig the tunnel a little bit deeper, and not have to make that silly roof?

Still, it's worth a watch, I suppose. The production value is good, as you say.

Edit: what was with that horse scene? Have we been shown that Galadriel really loves horses, or something?

I mean Orcs are pretty feckin stupid and the need for shelter is true to canon with Orcs unable to operate in sunlight (created after Two Trees were destroyed and world was in darkness etc.), hence why the Uruk-hai are more dangerous.

 

[Revan]

Just watching EP 3 and I don't think it's that bad. It's just that pretty much every scene with Galadriel sucks but afpart rom that it's fine

Interestingly, I am finding her arch by far the most interesting one.