IMO Hernandez' link up play is underrated considering the type of player he is and how little time he is getting to play. People have been incredibly harsh on him this season.
The Mata-Kagawa Linkup today..
- Thread starter The Man Himself
- Start date
Agreed. Welbeck should be the guy we turn to to stretch teams, or an incoming winger, not Valencia or Young.
I'd agree if you just mentioned Kagawa and Mata. Welbeck's as capable as Nani or Januzaj in terms of link up play. And Rooney has days when he has the first touch of rapist.
One thing I noticed and also highlighted in MOTD was that Mata was given a free role. He was all over getting the ball from the defenders then in the box the next minute, so this role suited him really, and Kagawa did the same to a lesser degree, but the likes of Hernandez and Adnan were the ones creating the space for those two because they stretch the games with the positions they take.
Are you Lineker, Savage or Kompany?
Never really understood the whole 'touch of a rapist' thing. Are rapists known for not having very good ball control?
Same. Never got this one.
Not sure if you guys are serious but if you are. It's because they are not very subtle or gentle.
Ah, the subtlety thing, of course. Thank you.
I had actually never thought of that, though to be honest the link is a little bit tenuous. I'd prefer something like touch of a volcano - neither gentle nor subtle.
I'd prefer something like touch of a volcano - neither gentle nor subtle.
the feck does a volcano touch, big dormant bastards.When I desribe a bad touch, it's either the touch of a rapist, touch of an elephant or couldn't trap a bag of cement.
I suppose bad ball-control works also!
the team for next season should be build around mata-kagawa. i hope this game opens moyes' eyes about shinji.
I'd prefer something like touch of a volcano - neither gentle nor subtle.
I suppose I will try using that now. At least it's a little more family friendly.
....touch of a dinosaur? No?
Ppl forget that RvP is quite capable of this intricate kind of football - it was what he did at Arsenal for years until they sold Adebayor and amde him lead the lien teh alst 2 seasons there...hes better at it than Rooney. The caveat is that Rooney is the one with the brand new contract and is 2 years younger... I don't think RvP will be going anywhere as he has what 3 years left (?), so Moyes (or a better coach/manager) will just have to figure how to get him, Rooney, Mata AND kagawa into the team w/o stinking it up!
Rooney out right with kagawa on the other side (left) with mata in the middle, RvP up top and 2 VERY mobile CMs behind them would work in a 4-2-3-1...maybe. Plenty of lung-busting runs by the fullbacks up and down the flanks would sort it out.
Rooney out right with kagawa on the other side (left) with mata in the middle, RvP up top and 2 VERY mobile CMs behind them would work in a 4-2-3-1...maybe. Plenty of lung-busting runs by the fullbacks up and down the flanks would sort it out.
They do look very good linking up with each other.
I'm not sure where this idea that that RVP will ruin everything comes from though. He could easily play in the role Hernandez did today. The problem is we have Rooney, RVP, Welbeck, Hernandez, Mata, Kagawa, Januzaj and Nani...and only 4 positions to play them in. Even with two games a week that's difficult when you also need to find a combination that works.
For me, Rooney, RVP, Welbeck, Mata, Kagawa and arguably Nani are all too good to be sitting on the bench every other week. Januzaj will be in the same category soon enough. I don't know what you do about that.
There's also the issue that at the moment, our fullbacks and midfield just aren't good enough for us to leave both our flanks light, which is why we keep playing Young or Valencia.
It's really not as easy as "do this" and it works. Though Mata and Kagawa are making a good case for needing to be in the team together...but then Welbeck is making a good case of needing to be in the team. So is Rooney. RVP even when he's playing badly scores nearly every time he plays. Januzaj is too good to neglect...
I'm not sure where this idea that that RVP will ruin everything comes from though. He could easily play in the role Hernandez did today. The problem is we have Rooney, RVP, Welbeck, Hernandez, Mata, Kagawa, Januzaj and Nani...and only 4 positions to play them in. Even with two games a week that's difficult when you also need to find a combination that works.
For me, Rooney, RVP, Welbeck, Mata, Kagawa and arguably Nani are all too good to be sitting on the bench every other week. Januzaj will be in the same category soon enough. I don't know what you do about that.
There's also the issue that at the moment, our fullbacks and midfield just aren't good enough for us to leave both our flanks light, which is why we keep playing Young or Valencia.
It's really not as easy as "do this" and it works. Though Mata and Kagawa are making a good case for needing to be in the team together...but then Welbeck is making a good case of needing to be in the team. So is Rooney. RVP even when he's playing badly scores nearly every time he plays. Januzaj is too good to neglect...
Yep. Our attack on paper is devastating. I do understand attacking players win you games and titles but the signing of Kagawa, RvP and Mata in recent windows at the expense of fullback cover and CM options is terribly baffling. The squad is so unbalanced that we are constantly having to play players out of position (Jones, Valencia, Welbeck, Smalling) while there is an obvious lack of quality in midfield. Then you've got quality played like Nani and Hernandez who've been sitting on the bench all season.
Moyes seems to have half an idea of how to manage the squad now. He really needs to fix the imbalance in the squad in the summer.
I don't think placing the emphasis on attack is a mistake. Liverpool's defence is garbage, as is City's besides Kompany and Zabaleta actually, and they might win the league. While teams like Barcelona and Bayern are happy to play midfielders in defence rather than go out and buy world class centre-halves.
If you monopolise possession, if you win it back high up the field and if you're the one applying the pressure for most of the game defence doesn't matter. Moyes has been, for a United manager, uncharacteristically obsessed with defence. Last year our defence wasn't all that either, but as Liverpool are doing this season, we ignored that and just tried to outscore everyone (and it mostly worked!)
Centre midfield is the place we need to do the most business, the full back areas...that's just an excuse for Moyes' negativity. The likes of Jon Flanagan don't hold a candle to Gary Neville in his prime, that doesn't matter though cos Liverpool are such a difficult force to resist this season their error prone defenders e.g. Skertel and Toure aren't exposed. If Moyes had put more emphasis on attack this season the gaps in our side would seem much smaller than he's made them appear.
Oh, now I get it
Yet when we are linked to Seamus Coleman some people get their knickers in a twist. When in fact he'd be a great addition to our squad and challenge Rafael to right back and cover the right wing.
Imagine Don Juan Mata, his first touch is gentle, subtle, soft, romantic. He is the greatest lover of all time, with the most delicate of touches (no homo). And so he controls the ball with ease, immediately ready to flow into his next move, even when the pass has a lot of pace on it.
Imagine the rapist, his first touch is rough, heavy, hard, brutal. He fiercely forces himself upon women, with a very hard and strong first touch. And so he controls the ball with difficulty, often having to use his next move to get it properly under control, especially when the pass has a lot of pace on it.
If you want to learn more about Don Juan Mata: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan
Also I liked this film:
Ironically, if you want to get the woman under control then the first touch of a rapist would be the preference. For that reason I do not like the term, getting the woman under control and getting the ball under control are two different things. With the ball one must be gentle, subtle, soft and romantic but with the woman one must be rough, heavy, hard and brutal.
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The thing is, Liverpool or City might win the league, but they're both still terribly flawed teams. Neither can defend. Both can be got at by any team good enough to get hold of the ball. You throw Chelsea in aswell who have the opposite problem of not having enough variety or finishing power in attack.
The likelyhood is that one or more will address these problems in the summer, so for us to get back to being competitive we need to look at being better than any of these teams are this season. I think if Moyes can manage the squad properly next season, we are capable of being on the same level as where they are now with the squad we have. For me we have the best attack in the league and despite being light in defence and midfield, have misused what we have in those areas terribly all season.
For next season we have two problems. The first is sorting that out. We definitely need a midfielder and probably two fullbacks. Possibly two midfielders though I think with Fletcher and Fellaini, you can MAYBE get away with one good signing if Carrick gets his shit together, and then take a bit more time signing someone else. We need to stop playing people if they just aren't doing their jobs. Smalling and Jones would be my first choice CB pairing (Evans can debutise fine for eiither) and Carrick wouldn't be playing ahead of Fletcher unless he started performing properly again. Evra wouldn't be my first choice fullback even if we didn't sign another one.
The second problem is finding room for all of our attacking players. If it was me I'd probably be really harsh and use RVP more as a back up, Rooney as the main front man, Mata as the main man in behind him and then fit Welbeck, Kagawa, Januzaj, Nani etc. around that. The thing we have in our favour there is that a lot of those players can play well in more than one of the four positions. Rooney can play up top or as the no10. Welbeck can play anywhere except the no10 role. Kagawa or Januzaj in the right team can play in any of the three roles behind the striker. etc. It's not impossible to make it work but we really need to be in Europe next season or there just wont be enough games to share around...and we also by the start of next season REALLY need to be in a position where the rest of the squad is strong enough that we don't have to sacrifice one of our front 4 to cover our midfield/fullbacks. It's either that or we're going to have extremely talented players beiing wasted on the bench and then probably leaving.
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An opinion based on one game perhaps, but I'm excited about a team built around Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj playing together regularly. It feels like a good future to me. We just need to find the new Roy Keane to back them up.
This is what saddens me the most. I think we've already got some unhappy attacking players in the squad (RvP, Hernandez, Nani) and we really need to be playing four of the quartet, instead of sacrificing one of them and playing three in midfield. We really need to be in Europe (even Europa) to firstly have enough games for everyone, and two sign that world class CM that will allow us to play the quartet of attacking players.
I feel something is going to have to give and once you've got everyone fit in attack we've got maybe one too many players (even if you factor in Young as a non-entity). RvP, Rooney, Welbeck, Hernandez, Kagawa, Mata, Nani, Januzaj, Valencia, Young. Even if you discount the last two, you've still got 8 players 4 positions, which isn't too bad, but really those at least 6 of those players (excluding probably Hernandez and Januzaj) you would expect would be demanding to play every week.
This is the key for me. Our attack is good enough but we're not seeing that often enough because we don't have the foundations to support it. City have been able to accommodate Aguero, Negredo, Silva and Nasri at times because they have Toure and Fernandinho. We won't be able to match their quality in one summer of transfer activity but we should be able to rival their athleticism. Carvalho would go someway to address this it seems. We also need a consistent back four that can play further up the pitch.
Rafael Smalling Evans Shaw
Jones Carvalho
Something like that would enable us to play whatever front four we fancied.
Jones Carvalho
Something like that would enable us to play whatever front four we fancied.
I think however that Kagawa and Mata have both shown a willingness to track back, not as well as say Valencia/Young will but not so poorly that they leave their full back exposed. Additionally with them we get the benefit of being able to keep the ball better but also because we get more players closer together, if we lose the ball we have a better chance in the first instance to win the ball back, where as when we play a much wider formation in midfield one loose pass typically leaves us quite open to a counter.
In the bigger games you'd still probably want someone like Valencia/Welbeck playing, but even then thats due more to weaknesses centrally and with our fullbacks that can be addressed. I mean even with the players we have I'd much rather see Fellaini told to sit and cover his side rather than get pushed up to try and win an aerial battle and leave just one player holding back in midfield. Fletcher for me is showing increasing mobility/pace with each game and with Carrick could provide the base for the likes of kagawa/mata to the have the freedom to play with.
You'd hope that would be the focus in the summer, to solve the issues in midfield/defence properly because in kagawa/mata/januzaj/nani/rooney/rvp/welbeck we've got a great range of attacking options, with a good understanding forming with those first 3. You'd hope that given there's nothing to really play for in the league we really try to see how well they can do ahead of next season. Most of them are all at a great age to build the attack around.
In the bigger games you'd still probably want someone like Valencia/Welbeck playing, but even then thats due more to weaknesses centrally and with our fullbacks that can be addressed. I mean even with the players we have I'd much rather see Fellaini told to sit and cover his side rather than get pushed up to try and win an aerial battle and leave just one player holding back in midfield. Fletcher for me is showing increasing mobility/pace with each game and with Carrick could provide the base for the likes of kagawa/mata to the have the freedom to play with.
You'd hope that would be the focus in the summer, to solve the issues in midfield/defence properly because in kagawa/mata/januzaj/nani/rooney/rvp/welbeck we've got a great range of attacking options, with a good understanding forming with those first 3. You'd hope that given there's nothing to really play for in the league we really try to see how well they can do ahead of next season. Most of them are all at a great age to build the attack around.
Jones should never be a midfielder, being just a ball winning isn't enough any more. You look at the best teams in the world and their central pairing are both capable ball players, fernandinho & toure, kroos/Schwerin/Martinez,
/thiago they don't just have a destroyer. We need mobility and physicality back in our midfield but we can't substitute footballing ability.
No, just no.
Jones has probably had the most impressive performances out of any of our CMs this season.
I'm not his biggest fan but Fletcher has made a big difference since coming back, the best we've seen in midfield was the cameo from Kagawa yesterday. A player like Jones isnt conducive to a positive style of play, it invites pressure.
Not in a creative sense though. He's had some great games where his energy has been very important but ideally we'd have midfielders with a greater ability to control a game to not need that. Additionally for me he just doesn't have the passing level required. I'm not saying we need a Scholes type of passer but you look at Fletcher and personally I think his ability to patiently and sharply deliver the ball in central areas to the feet of mata/kagawa etc adds a lot.
I'd probably agree with this actually.
I like Fletcher and I think he does the job against 80% of the teams we face.
I'm not fully convinced he could deliver against the big boys though both domestically in Europe. He was famed for his engine and with his physical attributes not being the same as before, he has had to rely a lot more on his experience, reading of the game and passing. (which has improved a lot to be fair). But he still isn't Carrick or Pirlo in a sense, and isn't really reliable enough to dictate play in the biggest games.
Long story short Fletcher provides a good base for the likes of Kagawa and Mata but we really need that elusive world class CM.
indeed. that is why we may need him there against Bayern. Which may mean Smalling at RB and Rio and Vidic in CB
Smalling doesn't have the ability to play RB against Ribery. Would be suicide pretty much. He'd need a Buttner performance.
I think it's improved in last 18 months which was very necessary. But don't think it's ever going to be a strong part of his game, all about the movement and aggression
What? I want Smalling nowhere near the full back position but if we wanted a player to completely shut out Ribery and nothing else, he's the best option in the squad. What are you inferring by "ability?" Ability to defend? He's the best defender we have.
I'm inclined to agree there, I don't think any of our central midfielders are good enough for us to compete with the very best, if you add a gundogan or Vidal in there we would go up so many levels. Attackwise we are fine, we've got all the goal threat and creativity we need, we just need that foundation to allow them that freedom.