The Mata-Kagawa Linkup today..

Annahnomoss

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What? I want Smalling nowhere near the full back position but if we wanted a player to completely shut out Ribery and nothing else, he's the best option in the squad. What are you inferring by "ability?" Ability to defend? He's the best defender we have.
Smalling is not our best full-back defensively in my opinion at least. I'd rather we let Jones out on Ribery again as he already has the psychological advantage there. Smalling is a bit too lanky/clumsy for the rapid changes of direction from Ribery. Like I said Smalling may well go out and have a Buttner performance and completely shut him out but I wouldn't expect it.

Centrally I think Smalling is brilliant defensively though, maybe that is what you meant.
 

mufcwarm92

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If we could sign someone the level of Kroos we'd have fantastic creativity in the side, which is obviously something we've lacked. Add to that a proper holding midfielder and a bit of pace on the right and we'd have a fantastic side.
 

bosnian_red

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I think if we bought carvalho and gundogan, it would be the perfect midfield pairing. Carvalho sheltering in front of the defence but also very good physically and can move around the pitch, then gundogan who is more all around and can play passes into the attacking players and also make runs on the ball. Would enable us to play our best players as well. Personally think we should be doing all we can to play something like this:

Striker
Kagawa mata winger
Carvalho gundogan
Rvp and Rooney fighting for the striker spot, but realistically 1 (rvp) will have to leave. Nani if he picks up form and gets past injuries would be perfect for the right wing spot, but januzaj would get plenty of games there and welbeck as well, along with Valencia coming in occasionally when needed. Young just has to go as he's taking up space. We really need to build around the tandem of mata and kagawa though as you can tell both work brilliantly together, and then in a few years januzaj can complete the trio. It would be criminal if we let kagawa leave though.
 

Technical flair

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What? I want Smalling nowhere near the full back position but if we wanted a player to completely shut out Ribery and nothing else, he's the best option in the squad. What are you inferring by "ability?" Ability to defend? He's the best defender we have.
Smalling defensive abilities are never much into question, however his passing ability is for a conference player. He's probably our worst passer in the sqyad. When you look at building attack from the back Smalling fails miserably at doing so. He even fails to make 5 yards passes and seems to be nervous on the ball at time and can't compose himself to start a ball from the back.

As much as we want to improve our midfield, we also have to look at our defenders and teach them to be composed on the ball and be brave enough to pass the ball to the midfield instead of hoofing it forward w/o much purpose. Obviously with midfielders like Fellaini who don't come to collect the ball from the defender this makes it even harder for them not to hoof but even in those moments when you see players like Kagawa or Mata drop a bit to collect the ball, our defenders are too scared to make that pass forward in between players and rather hoof it.

I've seen this done especially by Rio(who is the most guilty of doing it), Vidic and even our young defenders like Jones and Evans. Smalling just can't pass the ball at all, so not even worth mentioning when talking about passing. Hopefully they learn how to be composed and be brave enough to try those daring passes sometimes.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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It could work, but I would personally prefer us to have at least one direct player on the wings, who will give us natural width in order stretch teams, which would hopefully give players like Kagawa and Mata more space to work within.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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I think if we bought carvalho and gundogan, it would be the perfect midfield pairing. Carvalho sheltering in front of the defence but also very good physically and can move around the pitch, then gundogan who is more all around and can play passes into the attacking players and also make runs on the ball. Would enable us to play our best players as well. Personally think we should be doing all we can to play something like this:

Striker
Kagawa mata winger
Carvalho gundogan
Rvp and Rooney fighting for the striker spot, but realistically 1 (rvp) will have to leave. Nani if he picks up form and gets past injuries would be perfect for the right wing spot, but januzaj would get plenty of games there and welbeck as well, along with Valencia coming in occasionally when needed. Young just has to go as he's taking up space. We really need to build around the tandem of mata and kagawa though as you can tell both work brilliantly together, and then in a few years januzaj can complete the trio. It would be criminal if we let kagawa leave though.
Good post.
 

Crashoutcassius

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Rvp and Rooney fighting for the striker spot, but realistically 1 (rvp) will have to leave. Nani if he picks up form and gets past injuries would be perfect for the right wing spot, but januzaj would get plenty of games there and welbeck as well, along with Valencia coming in occasionally when needed. Young just has to go as he's taking up space. We really need to build around the tandem of mata and kagawa though as you can tell both work brilliantly together, and then in a few years januzaj can complete the trio. It would be criminal if we let kagawa leave though.​
Agree with all of your post but we need to find out what the problem is with rooney/kagawa/mata in the biggest games. we look infinitely better than the start of the season in smaller games going forward with these 3 + sometimes januzaj on the pitch, but vs big teams that falls apart and they can't string balls together. IMO the main problem is the CM in those biggest games, the inability to get the ball off the centre backs forcing mata to drop absurdly deep. also, mata/rooney/kagawa might be less ineffective vs well organised defences if they had some options behind them to recycle the play. I guess that's what we're all hoping, that two more solid ball players in the middle will make us the finished article
 

amolbhatia50k

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There's clearly the potential of something special between the two of them. They're both brilliant footballers who have similarities but also have subtle differences that make them compliment each other.
 

Blue always red

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It could work, but I would personally prefer us to have at least one direct player on the wings, who will give us natural width in order stretch teams, which would hopefully give players like Kagawa and Mata more space to work within.
Yep. Big problem Arsenal face when they use Cazorla - Ozil - Rosicky is the lack of out and out winger who can stretch teams. I wouldn't mind seeing Zaha and Januzaj out there. Kagawa showed he could also 'play' on the right last game.
 

bosnian_red

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Agree with all of your post but we need to find out what the problem is with rooney/kagawa/mata in the biggest games. we look infinitely better than the start of the season in smaller games going forward with these 3 + sometimes januzaj on the pitch, but vs big teams that falls apart and they can't string balls together. IMO the main problem is the CM in those biggest games, the inability to get the ball off the centre backs forcing mata to drop absurdly deep. also, mata/rooney/kagawa might be less ineffective vs well organised defences if they had some options behind them to recycle the play. I guess that's what we're all hoping, that two more solid ball players in the middle will make us the finished article
It has to be a mental thing at this point for both players and manager in the big games. Moyes always being more cautious, not starting Kagawa in them and being forced to sub him on once the game is pretty much lost. The midfield doesn't help, but Fellaini has basically froze from the start of every big game, amateur mistakes at the back also has us chasing the game early on. We don't look like we go out to win, or looking for an early goal in those games and so we've seen some really bad performances. My take on it at least.

It's mostly been moyes and players just freezing up until now, but I'm pretty confident in saying that when we play Everton for example we'll put in a much better performance and might even get a result. Something seems to have clicked with Kagawa for moyes, maybe it's just false hope though. I do think he'd be more adventurous though and try to still open up the opposition like this rather then picking young/Valencia and going for loads of crosses. Maybe it's just injuries forcing his hand but you can't deny that the performances overall have improved. Hell if moyes had us going for something like we saw vs Newcastle and the last month in general from the start of the season I probably wouldn't have been so against him as I have been.
 

Tibs

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RvP

Mata
Kagawa
Nani/Adnan

Rooney can shove his 300k/week up his ass and feck off
 

gza the genius

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It's not a conundrum because RVP is injured a lot and Rooney misses games too. We need both at the club.
Then what do you do when they are both fit? You can't sit Rooney or RvP long term while they are fit and I don't think Moyes has the confidence to do this anyway even if it is the right move for the team.
 

BW.k

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Kagawa was immense at Dortmund because he had technical players beside him who moved around consistently making it difficult to mark them. His job was to spray passes and move to the next best position where he can play a final pass or take a shot. In which he excelled. Till last couple of months he was played with players like Valencia/Young who's job is to go wide and cross the ball which didn't work.
Good thing about Kagawa is that he always makes himself available for passes and doesn't hide. We look static and sluggish when we play traditional wingers and our buildup play is predictable. With Kagawa you don't know whether he'll turn 360 and make a run to the box or quickly release his teammate to make him free.

With Mata he now has someone he can link with and consistently change positions and make the play unpredictable. I feel if we can get a creative midfielder we'll see Kagawa play even better.
Last night was an example of how good can this side can be with the right tactics. Even though it was against a struggling Newcastle but we haven't been half decent against the sides of their calibre more than a couple of times.
 

Blue always red

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From the few matches these two have played together, it can be argued that they seem to be on the same wavelength. However the midfield, bar Fletch and maybe Cleverley depending on his role, and the fullbacks are still entrenched in getting it out to the wing.

Against Newcastle on the counter, especially in the second half, there were times when Kagawa or Mata would burst out and play the ball to the fullback only for them to run into trouble instead of playing it back to either of them who would be in acres of space. Whilst I like when our fullbacks drive the ball toward the box, there are times when our counter is ruined because of this.

The midfield is also a problem. The first goal against Newcastle would not have come simply because Carrick would not have supported the attack so high up, like Fletcher. The Carrick - Fellaini partnership is not one that will support a counter-attack, whereas Fletch will. When we go against teams who actually defend properly and are well organised, we're going to have problems breaking them down if our midfielders are not supporting the attacks.
 

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He has to stay. It would be a massive stain on Moyes' credibility if he let a player of Kagawa's quality go because he didn't know what to do with him.
 

devilish

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In my opinion we should first strengthen the midfield before jumping the gun. Let us bring 2 quality defensive minded midfielders (Carvalho is a good candidate to that role) and add some real steel to this CM. Once we got that we can assess if we can play 4 between Mata, Januzaj, Rooney, RVP and Kagawa together.
 

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I don't find it hugely surprising but with Hernandez up top stretching the play, it created space for the likes of Mata and Kagawa to work with - leading to them playing much better.

With Rooney up front dropping deep, it allows the opponents defenders to push up and limits the space that our attacking players have to work with.

It's not rocket science particularly, but yeah.
Moreover, Rooney intrudes into the playing spaces of the attacking midfielders, more so in the case of whoever is playing on the left wing/attacking midfield position.
 

MDFC Manager

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In my opinion we should first strengthen the midfield before jumping the gun. Let us bring 2 quality defensive minded midfielders (Carvalho is a good candidate to that role) and add some real steel to this CM. Once we got that we can assess if we can play 4 between Mata, Januzaj, Rooney, RVP and Kagawa together.
This would be the logical way to go about things.
 

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He has to stay. It would be a massive stain on Moyes' credibility if he let a player of Kagawa's quality go because he didn't know what to do with him.
In the end it looks like Moyes and Kagawas critics were right about Kagawa. All we heard all season from people like Mad Winger is that he can't play on the left etc. The response was that he's not being played as an out and out winger and that it is up to him to step up. Now look. Nothing has changed apart from Kagawa upping his game.
 

Walrus

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In the end it looks like Moyes and Kagawas critics were right about Kagawa. All we heard all season from people like Mad Winger is that he can't play on the left etc. The response was that he's not being played as an out and out winger and that it is up to him to step up. Now look. Nothing has changed apart from Kagawa upping his game.
I read a post/article a while back explaining why apparently Japanese players take longer to adjust in new surroundings. I think to a degree, Kagawa has improved.

However, I also ready some interesting comments about Kagawa where he was referred to as a "multiplier" in the team - that he wasn't often a player who could be at the forefront of creating attacking opportunities, however he links up superbly with other like minded players (like Mata). I think Kagawa was crying out to play with someone like Mata, who is very happy to be the "lead" whilst Kagawa plays the supporting role.

I think having Mata has highlighted the shortcomings of Rooney in the #10 role (which people were becoming aware of this season), and that Kagawa couldn't link with Rooney in the same way he has with Mata.
 

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In the end it looks like Moyes and Kagawas critics were right about Kagawa. All we heard all season from people like Mad Winger is that he can't play on the left etc. The response was that he's not being played as an out and out winger and that it is up to him to step up. Now look. Nothing has changed apart from Kagawa upping his game.
I doubt Kagawa has upped his game much as he was barely afforded a chance to play earlier in the season.
 

#07

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I doubt Kagawa has upped his game much as he was barely afforded a chance to play earlier in the season.
Yup, and people are also ignoring the combination of players and how it impacts form.

Kagawa thrives on being able to play off other like minded players. Players who will come short, players who like a give and go, players who like to move it on in two touches. Mata is the same.

If you play them in a side where players are always running away from them you won't see their best. They want options, triangles, angles. Moyes' rigidity and cross it game plan has made these players look worse. It's only now they are playing together that we are seeing their true value.
 

Varun

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Yup, and people are also ignoring the combination of players and how it impacts form.

Kagawa thrives on being able to play off other like minded players. Players who will come short, players who like a give and go, players who like to move it on in two touches. Mata is the same.

If you play them in a side where players are always running away from them you won't see their best. They want options, triangles, angles. Moyes' rigidity and cross it game plan has made these players look worse. It's only now they are playing together that we are seeing their true value.
Pretty much.

Neither of Kagawa or Mata will perform at their best if we play a stupid system where players stand miles from each other waiting for them to perform individually. Play a system that involves movement, players close to each other, making runs etc and both will thrive.
 

quackattack

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Mata loves him.
ROFL. That is the look of a guy who is in love!:P

On topic. I have waited for this to show its true potential, and here it is. As some others have already stated, The understanding they show is something I haven't seen (at forst sight) since that of Cole and York, could this be our new super combo? Or even trio if Adnan takes new steps?

For the most part I agree with the posts here. And I have always been a fan of Kagawa's abilities, all the way back since he first was introduced to european football. I think we see some glimps of why these days.
 

Fergies Formula

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Mata Kagawa provided lovely interplay, Hernandez stretched the defence well and gave them space to operate - the only weakness they both share is the lack of real pace. This wouldnt be such a problem if we addressed other areas.

What I think needs to happen as we see in the other top teams in europe the attacking midfielders are no longer conventinal wingers they let their full backs provide the width. In the summer we need to buy 2 x new full backs with world class forward play, who can provide excellent crosses and be a constant danger on the wings. Suddenly we would look a lot more dynamic. Sometimes even Buttner looks decent as he has reasonable pace but his delivery is so up and down.

Ideally we would look something like this.

Rooney
Kagawa mata Nani
CM CM
LB Smalling CB RB
De Gea

So IMO we need 5 new players - A ready made dominant centre back who can partner Smalling (Jones doesnt seem to have developed enough to be relied upon. We need 2 new fullbacks, as much as I love Rafael, he is injury prone and a bit of a liability. And obviously 2 Centre midfielders who can feed to forwards, Carricks time is coming to and end, Fletcher is 2nd rate, Fellani lacks in every deparment to be a starter and Cleverly is just featherweight.

Kagawa and Mata need to be at the heart of it so we can create a team with an actual identity. I would like to stick Nani in that bracket as he has it in his locker its just the consistency which he hasnt found in his time here.
 

quackattack

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Mata Kagawa provided lovely interplay, Hernandez stretched the defence well and gave them space to operate - the only weakness they both share is the lack of real pace. This wouldnt be such a problem if we addressed other areas.

Ideally we would look something like this.

Rooney
Kagawa mata Nani
CM CM
LB Smalling CB RB
De Gea

So IMO we need 5 new players .
Very much agree on this. However, I think we MIGHT be ok if we only get another LB and CB. RB, I feel is quite well covered with Rafa as the firstpick and, in worst case Smalling, Jones, Valencia or a youngster to cover it. (I know they are not ideal on RB, but they work as backup/rotation).

I don't fully agree that we should have 2x CM. 1 would perhaps be enaugh as we have many "squad" CM's. I would imagine Carrick can keep a decent level for much of the games next season as well. Fellaini could possibly develop as a decent pick, and Fletch is solid enaugh for most games as well. But at least one, i agree.
 

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I like how Mata made a point of praising Shinji and saying how much he enjoyed playing with him.

Those two should start every game (bar CL of course) together for the rest of the season in my opinion,
 

Annahnomoss

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I think with Nani next to them we have all the players we need offensively. Unfortunately there aren't many wingers who are as fast, as good dribblers and have as good link up and off the ball movement as Nani these days.

So I'd stick with him and Januzaj as a back-up, Januzaj will get plenty of times as Nani is always injured a lot anyhow and Welbeck can step in at worst case.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I would not mind playing a 4-3-2-1 Christmas tree with them. Get Jones and Fletcher to shield defence and Fellani to contribute more to attack. He certainly is capable, but seems to have regressed in ball retention and passing since joining us :(
 

Pogue Mahone

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I doubt Kagawa has upped his game much as he was barely afforded a chance to play earlier in the season.
That's an exaggeration. He's started 19 games for United this season. Plenty of opportunities for him to show what he's got.

Recently he's been playing better (presumably in training as well as the games we get to see) and is being rewarded with more time on the pitch. That's the way these things work. What's really pleasing is that he's making a big contribution without playing in the number 10 position that so many people seem to think is the only way he should be fitted into our team. A position he's got a real uphill battle to ever make his own.

I quite like this article by @BeardedGenius on our two technomidgets.

www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/manchester-united-news-juan-mata-3384540

Serendipity is a heart-warming romantic comedy starring John Cusack and Kate Beckinsale about a couple who keep finding each other through a series of plot-friendly coincidences.

It is also a term coined from a Persian fairy tale about three princes who were “always making discoveries, by accidents and sagacity, of things which they were not in quest of”. It has come to describe instances of fortuitous happenstance and pleasant surprises. That’s right – I can use Google.

On Saturday afternoon Juan Mata and Shinji Kagawa also kept finding each other in an extremely heart-warming way.

The two miniature heroes combined in a manner that suggested each had finally discovered someone kindred in both skill and imagination to have wholesome family fun with. That the two have been given the playing time and freedom to flourish has more to do with limited options than a grand managerial master plan. It has been serendipitous.

But that's absolutely fine so long as David Moyes embraces his good luck and runs with it.
Gratefully accepting a gift horse rather than questioning its dentures is what good managers do. In fact two of the most symbiotic pairings of the Premier League era owe more than a little to fortuitous fluke. Neither Liverpool's SAS nor United's treble-winning Yorke-Cole axis happened completely by design. The key is that they were allowed to flourish and bloom.

Fergie had hoped to announce the double-swoop of both Dwight Yorke and Patrick Kluivert in August of 1998 but only managed to secure the less glamorous of the two; Daniel Sturridge was a consolation prize not of Brendan Rodger's choosing after his pursuit of Clint Dempsey came to nowt and he’ll forever be grateful it was so.

What both managers had the good sense to do was build upon the sensational unions that fell into their respective laps and the rest is - and may be - history.

Partnerships can’t be forced but they can be fostered. What Juan and Shinji showed against both Aston Villa and Newcastle United was an instinctive appreciation for each other’s games that hadn’t been afforded by more celebrated colleagues. They’re like the two quiet sensitive boys in nursery who don’t quite take to the raucous behaviour of the rest of the class but discover a friend for life in the other whilst neatly colouring within the lines…before going on to found Pixar or something.

What’s particularly exciting about Magawa (Juanji?) is that the Villa game that first gave fruit to their alliance was at home.

Despite Moyes’ team showing league-winning form on the road, their Old Trafford record is woeful in comparison. A large part of this will have to do with the understandable pressures of performing in front of an expectant crowd; it can both inhibit creativity and cause usually composed players to try and force the issue with half-baked results.

The way in which Kagawa and Mata combine is so natural and organic that it cuts through the tension and innately provides everything that the team was lacking – fluidity, movement and joyful unpredictability. Sometimes when two players of similar styles are partnered together they clash horribly as they both jostle to play the same role at the expense of the other. What the Asian and Iberian manage to do is dovetail their passing and movement to become better together.

Kagawa possibly deserves more credit than his more eye-catching partner. The Japanese international is the more tactically astute of the two and tailors his play more readily. It’s no coincidence that he struck up a similarly effective partnership with Robert Lewandowski at Dortmund. But whereas he openly criticised the Pole for what he felt was occasional selfishness that is not something he could ever accuse Mata of. The Spaniard is very appreciative and responds in kind. They’re like United’s Eric and Ernie – Juan provides the punch line but Shinji is the brains.

The only fear is that once everyone is fit and well David Moyes will revert to type and pick on reputation rather than merit, which means both Van Persie and Rooney at the expense of everyone else. Similarly it would be a horrible pity if Kagawa was shown the door at the end of a season in which he finally found someone on similar wavelength to his own. The hope is that the manager takes heed of Juan Mata’s gushing praise for his new friend and what seems like an interlude now could be the beginning of love.
 

Raoul

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That's an exaggeration. He's started 19 games for United this season. Plenty of opportunities for him to show what he's got.

Recently he's been playing better (presumably in training as well as the games we get to see) and is being rewarded with more time on the pitch. That's the way these things work. What's really pleasing is that he's making a big contribution without playing in the number 10 position that so many people seem to think is the only way he should be fitted into our team. A position he's got a real uphill battle to ever make his own.

I quite like this article by @BeardedGenius on our two technomidgets.

www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/manchester-united-news-juan-mata-3384540

He was obviously not used in the appropriate role until recently, as something has started to click, which many on here suspected if he was given a fair chance in a role that worked for him.
 

Raoul

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:confused: His "role" hasn't changed at all.
I just don't buy the idea that Kagawa has been poor and suddenly began playing well. Moyes obviously didn't rate him as highly as he did the likes of Young and Valencia early on, which probably affected his confidence. Obviously, Mata's arrival is also bringing out more from him.