The Mata-Kagawa Linkup today..

[Walters_19_MuFc]

How often has Moyes started both Young and Valencia in the same game in the last 3-4 months?

Because these kind of posts are getting more and more boring by the day.

To be honest Moyes can't win. He starts Young and Valencia against Man City at the Etihad and we lose 4-1. We then go with Januzaj and Mata against Liverpool and we lose 3-0.

It's just about finding the right balance, especially when we play the top teams. So far, Valencia and Kagawa seem to give us a nice balance.

I think once we add some dynamism into our midfield, we can probably get away with playing Mata on the wings. That said, i'd much prefer him in the no.10 role.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I couldn't even work out what game he was talking about.

So, yeah, since we've signed Mata, I'm fairly sure that Young and Valencia have started together just once, as you say, in a game where Mata was ineligible.

And yet certain posters STILL think it's funny to post snide comments about Moyes picking Young and Valencia over Mata and Kagawa in dozens of threads across the forum.

Just like the famous Osman jokes. *yawn*

 

[Twisted with Power]

Its a funny one. If you were to ask me I'd say that Young had probably played twice as often as Kagawa this season. But when you actually look the stats are quite different. Kagawa 19 starts + 7 sub. Young 16 starts + 12 sub. Its probably because Young was so obvious when we were in a tailspin after Xmas, but he's actually given Kagawa a fair crack this season.

I just hope that playing him vs Bayern is a sign that he'll keep him next season.

I think he'll keep him. Kags seems to winning him over as the season goes on.

Incidentally...i wonder what the difference is in terms of result.

How many games with Kagawa playing did we win/lose?
How many games with Young playing did we win/lose?
How many games with both playing did we win/lose?

Be funny if Young had the better success stats.

Hmm...anyone fancy doing some research? ....pretty please?

 

[Cal?]

Answer the question or don't bother replying.

Young and Valencia have started together in Chelsea (A), Man City (A) and Olympiakos (A) and we lost all 3 convincingly.

 

[Cal?]

I think he'll keep him. Kags seems to winning him over as the season goes on.

Incidentally...i wonder what the difference is in terms of result.

How many games with Kagawa playing did we win/lose?
How many games with Young playing did we win/lose?
How many games with both playing did we win/lose?

Be funny if Young had the better success stats.

Hmm...anyone fancy doing some research? ....pretty please?

Kagawa started 16 games in the PL/CL this season and we lost 3: West Brom (H), Everton (H), Bayern (A)
Young started 14 games in the PL/CL this season and we lost 5: Liverpool (A), Man City (A), Chelsea (A), Stoke (A), Olympiakos (A) [Also the calamitous Fulham (H)]

They have started 5 games together in the PL/CL and we won all 5.

 

[Rowem]

Young and Valencia have started together in Chelsea (A), Man City (A) and Olympiakos (A) and we lost all 3 convincingly.

So the answer to the question then is ONCE

You could arguably include the Chelsea game as it was borderline to the date limit I set but:

a) it was obvious I meant since the signing of Mata
b) In that game Rooney, Van Persie and Nani were all out


Since then Moyes has clearly favoured Kagawa, and obviously Mata is one of the first names on the team sheet.

Instead of making snarky comments about Moyes picking Young over Kagawa how about putting your money were your mouth is. I previously issued a challenge on here that I'd bet posters that Kagawa will stay this summer whilst Young will be sold. If you think vice versa, then put your money on it. Otherwise do everyone a favour and kindly keep quiet.

 

[Cal?]

So the answer to the question then is ONCE

You could arguably include the Chelsea game as it was borderline to the date limit I set but:

a) it was obvious I meant since the signing of Mata
b) In that game Rooney, Van Persie and Nani were all out


Since then Moyes has clearly favoured Kagawa, and obviously Mata is one of the first names on the team sheet.

Instead of making snarky comments about Moyes picking Young over Kagawa how about putting your money were your mouth is. I previously issued a challenge on here that I'd bet posters that Kagawa will stay this summer whilst Young will be sold. If you think vice versa, then put your money on it. Otherwise do everyone a favour and kindly keep quiet.

That game away at Olympiakos was our biggest game of the season at that point, he had a full selection available (except Nani) and he went with the combination that everyone knows doesn't work (which was proven in our 2 biggest games in the league beyond a shadow of a doubt)

Mata was signed for a club record fee, it'd be pretty retarded if he wasn't played all the time.

If you condition your bet to exclude what happens with a Moyes sacking , I'd take you up on it.

 

[Rowem]

If you condition your bet to exclude what happens with a Moyes sacking , I'd take you up on it.

Yes, bet void if Moyes is not our manager, and bet also void if both or neither leave this summer. How much would you like to bet?

 

[bosnian_red]

The thing is, Young's appearances shouldn't be compared to Kagawa's. Kagawa should be a key player in the team and an automatic starter, whereas Young should be no more then a squad player. They might have played a similar amount this season, but the problem is that Kagawa has been criminally underused until the start of March, whereas Young was getting more games then he should have got.

 

[Cal?]

Yes, bet void if Moyes is not our manager, and bet also void if both or neither leave this summer. How much would you like to bet?

Don't mind, GBP100? To be settled Sep 1, 2014?

 

[Rowem]

Don't mind, GBP100? To be settled Sep 1, 2014?

I don't know you so would prefer a smaller amount (no offence intended, but you never know). Say £30?

 

[Twisted with Power]

Kagawa started 16 games in the PL/CL this season and we lost 3: West Brom (H), Everton (H), Bayern (A)
Young started 14 games in the PL/CL this season and we lost 5: Liverpool (A), Man City (A), Chelsea (A), Stoke (A), Olympiakos (A) [Also the calamitous Fulham (H)]

They have started 5 games together in the PL/CL and we won all 5.

(Cheers Cal? I was expecting someone to tell me to F off TBH )

It's interesting that when they both start...we win. Not sure what to make of that. Could be in the grand scheme of things mean we're better with one converted no:10 style winger and an old school flyer type winger giving us variation.

...or it could be coincidence meaning we weren't just plain sh*te for once.

 

[Cal?]

I don't know you so would prefer a smaller amount (no offence intended, but you never know). Say £30?

Sure thing, it's more bragging rights anyway.

 

[Cal?]

(Cheers Cal? I was expecting someone to tell me to F off TBH )

It's interesting that when they both start...we win. Not sure what to make of that. Could be in the grand scheme of things mean we're better with one converted no:10 style winger and an old school flyer type winger giving us variation.

...or it could be coincidence meaning we weren't just plain sh*te for once.

Those 5 games are Shakhtar (H), Norwich (A), West Ham (A), Aston Villa (H) and Newcastle (A), not sure what to make of that...

Incidently, we've also won all the games Kagawa and Mata have started together.

 

[Rowem]

Sure thing, it's more bragging rights anyway.

Excellent, that's booked in then. It'll make the transfer window more fun at least. And I guess it's a win-win for you (you either win the bet, or we sell Young and keep Kagawa!)

I tried finding that thread where people keep track of inter-forum bets but I couldn't find it anywhere. I'll just bookmark this thread instead.

 

[Cal?]

Excellent, that's booked in then. It'll make the transfer window more fun at least. And I guess it's a win-win for you (you either win the bet, or we sell Young and keep Kagawa!)

I tried finding that thread where people keep track of inter-forum bets but I couldn't find it anywhere. I'll just bookmark this thread instead.

Tiny consolation if we sell Kagawa and keep young.

 

[pocco]

We don't need them both in the same team. We sacrifice too much and all Kagawa does is hand the responsibility over to Mata. fecking Danny Welbeck or Antonio Valencia could constantly roll the ball 3 yards to Mata whilst actually offering something going forward.

 

[Sylar]

It works better when we have an actual striker in the team like Hernandez who runs in behind and creates space for the two. Instead we've had Rooney drop meaning theres no obvious ball to put in, and of course Rooney giving the ball away every time.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

No plan, they are almost running in to each other most of the time. And Kagawa is terrible at defending and has left Buttner exposed all the time.

 

[Varun]

No plan, they are almost running in to each other most of the time. And Kagawa is terrible at defending and has left Buttner exposed all the time.

I've seen the commentator say that countless times but it works both ways. He's giving us an additional attacking option in space playing the way he has. That said, the problem is we have no clue what to do with the possession.

 

[Annahnomoss]

It works better when we have an actual striker in the team like Hernandez who runs in behind and creates space for the two. Instead we've had Rooney drop meaning theres no obvious ball to put in, and of course Rooney giving the ball away every time.

Indeed, all the through-balls from Kagawa/Mata last game with Chica in the side is now gone.

 

[Zak Smith]

Ridiculous that people won't accept that Kagawa and Mata is not effective against a team of any decent quality.

Prefer to blame Rooney/anyone else, I don't disagree that Rooney has been awful/not created space but that doesn't make Mata and Kagawa blameless. When two of your attacking four are incapable of creating even one chance they are not blameless. No pace, no movement, no width. Bobbins.

If young and Valencia had played liked them two today they would be getting slaughtered.

 

[JP77]

Bollocks.

Look quality together. Rooney was the link fecking up every single thing in the final third today, likely still not match fit. These two together with somebody ahead of them will be lethal, absolutely lethal.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Kagawa and Mata is not effective against a team of any decent quality.

What an extreme conclusion to make out of any one game. It is the first time they fail to perform when they have been played together.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Ridiculous that people won't accept that Kagawa and Mata is not effective against a team of any decent quality.

Prefer to blame Rooney/anyone else, I don't disagree that Rooney has been awful/not created space but that doesn't make Mata and Kagawa blameless. When two of your attacking four are incapable of creating even one chance they are not blameless. No pace, no movement, no width. Bobbins.

If young and Valencia had played liked them two today they would be getting slaughtered.

Agreed, Rooney has been shit today but so have kagawa and Mata.

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

I said before they are pretty players but against a well organized defense they'll struggle to break open sides.

We have room only for one of them in our side. That guy is Mata IMO. Mata has to play as a no.10 with pacy wide men who'll create space for him and stretch team.

 

[Rowem]

Poor today.

If we are to play both of them then we need the other attacking players to provide an outlet - to stretch the play and run in behind.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Absolutely no width and no pace in our play today.

 

[Lawman]

Poor today.

If we are to play both of them then we need the other attacking players to provide an outlet - to stretch the play and run in behind.

Yep spot on but instead we have Rooney dropping deep and Nani wanting it at feet. Nobody makes runs in behind. Our centre mids can't run or tackle and our centre halfs are sub standard. Our fullbacks are the worse full backs to play there in modern times.

 

[Zak Smith]

What an extreme conclusion to make out of any one game. It is the first time they fail to perform when they have been played together.

Its extreme, but its true as well. I'm not saying that either one is a poor player, I'm saying that both of them together doesn't work. They don't offer the pace, width or defensive cover required when shifted out wide. Which one of them will always be when played together.

 

[Ekeke]

Not sure it works with Rooney up front on his own. We instantly had a bit more threat again with Hernandez up front

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Both went completely missing today when we needed someone to take control of the ball

 

[Theon]

Its extreme, but its true as well. I'm not saying that either one is a poor player, I'm saying that both of them together doesn't work. They don't offer the pace, width or defensive cover required when shifted out wide. Which one of them will always be when played together.

You can play one technical player out wide, lots of teams do it.

The problem is that you then need complementary pace and directness elsewhere in the side, which we didn't have today. Rooney was terrible in the role and dropped too deep, too often. Playing Kagawa and Mata becomes a problem when this happens, but if you do it properly and have a pure striker up top making penetrative runs and pushing the defence back then playing two number 10's is not an issue.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Its extreme, but its true as well. I'm not saying that either one is a poor player, I'm saying that both of them together doesn't work. They don't offer the pace, width or defensive cover required when shifted out wide. Which one of them will always be when played together.

Don't think it is true though. I prefer them in a 4-1-4-1 where they can both play centrally as they don't offer width, pace and goal-scoring as much as we need.

But they have the skill to pull it off against most if not all sides in the league. The issue today was Rooney who should have spent the entire game making runs behind the defense and never/rarely step down in to the Kagawa/Mata area.

In Rooney we not only played Kagawa and Mata in the same area, but Kagawa-Mata and Rooney. With Chicarito there we looked brilliant even with Januzaj who also likes moving centrally.

Of course Nani and Chicarito would have been ideal, plenty of goal-scoring, shooting and runs behind the defense from both. Nani looked a bit off today as well compared to what he can perform in terms of making off-the-ball runs which is one of his best traits when he has some games.

 

[thepolice123]

Very poor today. Felt like both of them had no plan, weren't following any tactics and just playing according to instincts.

 

[Annahnomoss]

You can play one technical player out wide, lots of teams do it.

The problem is that you then need complementary pace and directness elsewhere in the side, which we didn't have today. Rooney was terrible in the role and dropped too deep, too often. Playing Kagawa and Mata becomes a problem when this happens, but if you do it properly and have a pure striker up top making penetrative runs and pushing the defence back then playing two number 10's is not an issue.

This. Plenty of teams does it these days with success.

 

[George Owen]

They are a joy to watch, getting better and better, but we had no one to run into space to get the best of their passing range.

Nani can't sprint anymore. He just can't. Valencia would have been better.

Rooney goes deep everytime he can...

Buttner and Smalling can't attack and when they do, they are rubbish. Rafael + a good left back would make the difference.

 

[sdb4884]

Kagawas done

 

[Ash_G]

They weren't on it today particularly Mata. I think though they struggled with Rooney being well of his game and both fullbacks struggling a lot. They need the other players around them to be on their game, or at least more of them. I think there is potential there with Nani. For the first part of the game they all came a bit narrow, when Nani stayed a bit wider it was getting better. I think had Rooney gone off and those three had stayed on we would have finished the game a lot stronger.

 

[Phil]

Need movement from a striker (Not Rooney) wingers and full backs. We don't have any of that.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

I thought they both did okay today. Rooney was the one at fault for me. He doesn't stay up front, so who are the playmakers supposed to play in? They involved Rooney in the link up play, and Rooney continued to give the ball away. He looks several classes below players like Kagawa and Mata at times. A better focal point with technique (RVP) would have been beneficial.