The Mata-Kagawa Linkup today..

[RuudTom83]

It would be interesting to see how RVP played in front of these two, recently after 1 or 2 matches without him, the mood on the cafe was generally that RVP was stifling the free flowing play of Rooney and Mata/Shinji.

Now the next test would be to play a handful of games against different quality of opposition with Rooney on the bench and RVP playing with Shinji/Mata.

The problem with all this is that Mata/Shinji are not playing so great either...so the Manager would have to have a strong and clear way he wants to play, and manage the team with that in mind. DM being so indecisive and unsure about how to play is not helping at all!

 

[Gaeilge]

@Zak Smith - You are acting completely in knee-jerk and tbh, I'm worse for even responding to you...

Correct, neither are wingers and both are #10. This relationship is only taking baby steps and has been extremely impressive though. The two of them compliment each other and we have looked like the best side we are this season in recent weeks. We were dead as a door nail out left today because Seamus Coleman dominated everything.

It is hardly these twos fault when they have no striker making runs behind the defense and Rooney dropping out of position - in an attempt to alter the game. You are looking to lay waste to this partnership when IMO (and that of a lot of people), our lack of striker was the outstanding issue today.

 

[Dominos]

How is it unfair? Newcastle were/are rock bottom, and that's their only standout game where they have started together. I don't mind one of them starting, and I think they are both excellent players but the side becomes too unbalanced when they both start. And one will always have to play out wide, thats the main issue.

Both lack all the basic attributes of an effective winger [no surprise as they are No.10s]. It's no coincidence that our left side looked so exposed today. The same happened against Liverpool when Mata was played out wide. For me that was as pathetic as the fulham game, dominated possession but so one dimensional in attack.



It's not about how many times they've played together, it's about how often individually they have looked ineffective out wide. Which one always has to be when they play together.

Yet every time they've played together we've played our best football and they've given their best individual performances (which has involved one of them out wide). Today aside, of course.

 

[United22]

No plan B.

Mata + Kagawa + Rooney + Nani = 25inch Penis. 25inch Penis + Girl who won't put out (Everton) = no sex. Waste of a 25inch Penis.
Valencia = Drug. Girl who won't put out + (25inch penis + Drug) = sex.

We need at least 1 orthodox speedy winger whose no nonsense and direct. Look at Chambo, Sterling, Willian, Navas, Mirallas and the rest.

Worse than our performance today

 

[Sylar]

Play hernandez in front of them. It drags defenders back meaning Mata/Shinji have more time to do stuff. Having a striker who drops deep made it so simple for Everton. When we finally brought Hernandez on it created the one good chance for Rooney. Football can be a simple game but its overcomplicated at times.

 

[Zak Smith]

@Zak Smith - You are acting completely in knee-jerk and tbh, I'm worse for even responding to you...

Correct, neither are wingers and both are #10. This relationship is only taking baby steps and has been extremely impressive though. The two of them compliment each other and we have looked like the best side we are this season in recent weeks. We were dead as a door nail out left today because Seamus Coleman dominated everything.

It is hardly these twos fault when they have no striker making runs behind the defense and Rooney dropping out of position - in an attempt to alter the game. You are looking to lay waste to this partnership when IMO (and that of a lot of people), our lack of striker was the outstanding issue today.

Yet every time they've played together we've played our best football and they've given their best individual performances (which has involved one of them out wide). Today aside, of course.

And saying that their partnership is the future of the club after the Newcastle game isn't knee jerk? Give me a break. How many times have they actually started together? Can someone find out that info please?

For whats it worth this is more of a criticism of Moyes than either of the players individually. It's not knee jerk, I would have told you Kagawa is wank out wide a week ago, a month ago.

 

[Dante]

No plan B.

Mata + Kagawa + Rooney + Nani = 25inch Penis. 25inch Penis + Girl who won't put out (Everton) = no sex. Waste of a 25inch Penis.
Valencia = Drug. Girl who won't put out + (25inch penis + Drug) = sex.

We need at least 1 orthodox speedy winger whose no nonsense and direct. Look at Chambo, Sterling, Willian, Navas, Mirallas and the rest.

There are no redeeming qualities to that analogy.

 

[Ace of Spades]

We had a lot of possession and they were an important part to that as both kept dropping deep to collect the ball and move it forward, something that should be done by our CMs. There are going to be games where they won't click but the point is to make sure we learn from it and improve.

Rooney was dropping deep instead of playing on the shoulder of the defenders and making runs so that Mata and Kagawa could have someone to pick out. It did not help that he had one of his bad games that he has after an injury as well.

Mata had to adjust to Rooney dropping in his area, but he also had a bad game. Too careless and was dispossessed too easily at times.

Kagawa was fine in the attack, kept the ball well and actually tried some thing to create something. He was better than both Rooney and Mata. It was the defensive aspect that he needs to work on. That being said, even after his substitution we still were still exploited on that left hand side.

The problem for me is clear that when we have possession, we don't seem to have a clue how to open teams up. That comes from working on plays and tactics on the training field.

 

[pocco]

Kagawa wasn't fine in attack at all. His sole purpose seems to be to roll the ball to Mata and Everton were happy to allow us to do that. Whenever the time came for Kagawa to play that incisive ball he fecked it up, just as he has done on many occasions in recent weeks. It's no good being able to keep the ball but not do anything with it. He won't last here if these last few weeks are all he has to offer.

At the moment I'm struggling to see what the real purpose of the guy is. After last season I thought he'd get better, but he is exactly what the Dortmund supporters described - a multiplier. Were we to bring in a better player, such as Reus, we'd probably quickly realise how limited Kagawa is as we'd have a player that can do all that Kagawa can plus a whole lot more.

 

[hungrywing]

DM just fired a Rooney-shaped torpedo at his one chance to see if Kagawa-Mata could have developed into something big. Unbelievably amateur management.

 

[bosnian_red]

Kagawa wasn't fine in attack at all. His sole purpose seems to be to roll the ball to Mata and Everton were happy to allow us to do that. Whenever the time came for Kagawa to play that incisive ball he fecked it up, just as he has done on many occasions in recent weeks. It's no good being able to keep the ball but not do anything with it. He won't last here if these last few weeks are all he has to offer.

At the moment I'm struggling to see what the real purpose of the guy is. After last season I thought he'd get better, but he is exactly what the Dortmund supporters described - a multiplier. Were we to bring in a better player, such as Reus, we'd probably quickly realise how limited Kagawa is as we'd have a player that can do all that Kagawa can plus a whole lot more.

I know you hate Kagawa and you just don't see the point in him, that's fine, everyone has their opinions (though yours is wrong). But he wasn't the problem today by any means. He was the only person in our front 6, actually basically our only starter who was decent in any way. He keeps possession, links up play, offers an out ball always to pass to. He's probably the most important player when it comes to keeping the ball and controlling games. Not his fault that the manager is a useless sack of shite and doesn't know what to do. It's also laughable to claim that a player who is up there with anyone else in our squad technique wise, is limited. He doesn't need to make a chance every time he gets the ball you know, keeping the ball under pressure and passing it to a player actually instead of blindly crossing or hoofing it away should be encouraged.
I think you'd be severely disappointed if Reus came into our current team, as I doubt you actually watch them much. Sure he's a great player, he's one of my favorite players. Our style doesn't really encourage players to shine, because well everybody else plays crap too. What do you make of Mata today who was worse then Kagawa, easily?

 

[Mad Winger]

This thread after this game

I'm not surprised at all that pocco was the one to bump it.

 

[pocco]

I know you hate Kagawa and you just don't see the point in him, that's fine, everyone has their opinions (though yours is wrong). But he wasn't the problem today by any means. He was the only person in our front 6, actually basically our only starter who was decent in any way. He keeps possession, links up play, offers an out ball always to pass to. He's probably the most important player when it comes to keeping the ball and controlling games. Not his fault that the manager is a useless sack of shite and doesn't know what to do. It's also laughable to claim that a player who is up there with anyone else in our squad technique wise, is limited. He doesn't need to make a chance every time he gets the ball you know, keeping the ball under pressure and passing it to a player actually instead of blindly crossing or hoofing it away should be encouraged.
I think you'd be severely disappointed if Reus came into our current team, as I doubt you actually watch them much. Sure he's a great player, he's one of my favorite players. Our style doesn't really encourage players to shine, because well everybody else plays crap too. What do you make of Mata today who was worse then Kagawa, easily?

The problem is that we're sacrificing a left winger to allow Kagawa to do all that. Then we have Mata who is stood in similar positions to Kagawa but is the one that is actually there to create, or so it would seem from the way that Kagawa always feeds him the ball. I think as soon as we bring in midfielders that are mobile and good on the ball then that role that Kagawa is playing will no longer be needed.

To me it is quite obvious that we need more runners ahead of the ball and preferably some players out wide with individual skills. If we brought in someone of the Reus/Hazard ilk, what would be the point in Kagawa? Those two players can provide what he does but look at what else they bring to the table.

 

[RedStarUnited]

The problem is that we're sacrificing a left winger to allow Kagawa to do all that. Then we have Mata who is stood in similar positions to Kagawa but is the one that is actually there to create, or so it would seem from the way that Kagawa always feeds him the ball. I think as soon as we bring in midfielders that are mobile and good on the ball then that role that Kagawa is playing will no longer be needed.

To me it is quite obvious that we need more runners ahead of the ball and preferably some players out wide with individual skills. If we brought in someone of the Reus/Hazard ilk, what would be the point in Kagawa? Those two players can provide what he does but look at what else they bring to the table.

Hazard can bring a lot yes but Reus? Have you seen him play at all?

Rooney was the problem today, we started well enough and were fluod in possession etc, then got to the edge of the box and rooney was too busy coming out and trying to be involved in the build up. And we defended awfully bad too.

 

[JP77]

Not sure what some people on here were watching, they were both good together yet again today. Most moves in the final third didn't break down because of them either. And no width? That's not their fault, Moyes should of had it setup so that we got width from the full backs as well as Nani who was in the side.

The idea that these two can't play together is ridiculous, they've looked class together and I'm still not even convinced Moyes is even tactically getting it right either. They've shown good enough signs so far, they'll be even better with the right setup and team in full flow.

 

[bosnian_red]

The problem is that we're sacrificing a left winger to allow Kagawa to do all that. Then we have Mata who is stood in similar positions to Kagawa but is the one that is actually there to create, or so it would seem from the way that Kagawa always feeds him the ball. I think as soon as we bring in midfielders that are mobile and good on the ball then that role that Kagawa is playing will no longer be needed.

To me it is quite obvious that we need more runners ahead of the ball and preferably some players out wide with individual skills. If we brought in someone of the Reus/Hazard ilk, what would be the point in Kagawa? Those two players can provide what he does but look at what else they bring to the table.

Yes but they're also 2 of the best wingers in the world who we have no hope in signing. And Kagawa would be great alongside them, rather then them replacing him.

 

[pocco]

Hazard can bring a lot yes but Reus? Have you seen him play at all?

Rooney was the problem today, we started well enough and were fluod in possession etc, then got to the edge of the box and rooney was too busy coming out and trying to be involved in the build up. And we defended awfully bad too.

Of course I've seen him play. How do you not see what he'd bring to the table? He'd have a much better effect on Mata than Kagawa, though maybe in a different way.

Rooney wasn't great today but whenever he did make a run it was mostly ignored. In fact, Kagawa had a glorious chance to put him through but massively overhit the ball and Rooney struggled to keep it in play. It's just not good enough.

 

[Kakeru]

Rooney was dropping deep instead of playing on the shoulder of the defenders and making runs so that Mata and Kagawa could have someone to pick out. It did not help that he had one of his bad games that he has after an injury as well.

For me, that bit summed it all today. Rooney had absolutely zero positional discipline whatsoever, and it killed any plan we had of exploiting the Kagawa-Mata linkup. I don't think I can emphasize enough times on the fact that Rooney MUST be ordered to play the number 9 role (and eventually compete against RVP) and STFU if he has issues against putting himself in a position of scoring goals.

Please tell me how many times we said that on the CAF every time we want(ed) Rooney to focus on scoring goals. His ass should be in line with the last defender like a striker worthy of the title, end of.

 

[ivaldo]

Sorry I keep hearing about the lack of a pacey winger costing us (Nani?) But what would they have done today? I agree usually a bit of pace is required to stretch play but when teams sit inside their own box pace isn't going to get you a lot of return.

I think we started in the right way today, when teams defend in 2 banks like that it's always going to be frustrating. What we needed was to be patient, continue to work the ball and wait for the opening. We actually restricted Everton to playing long, what I couldn't understand though was why Jones was marking Lukaku and not Smalling, Smalling is a beast in the air and Lukaku wouldnt have gotten anywhere near the amount of success with him on his heels. If our midfield 2 had a bit of mobility about them then we wouldve picked up the lions share from any knockdowns and the constant possession/pressure wouldve eventually paid off.

Unfortunately once Everton went a goal ahead we were sitting ducks for the counter attack.

 

[pocco]

Yes but they're also 2 of the best wingers in the world who we have no hope in signing. And Kagawa would be great alongside them, rather then them replacing him.

Maybe we won't sign them, but you'd like to think that we could bring in players that have some of their qualities at least. Even if we could just add a bit of pace to our attack, it would make a huge difference. Neville and Carragher have been saying this a lot about us recently and I agree.

Kagawa might look good along side players of that ilk, but he's not as good as Mata in my opinion and we already have Mata. Kagawa would no doubt be the one to suffer if we had players like that on our books.

The situation with our play at the moment is a bit of a catch22 really. Mata/Kagawa look good in keeping the ball but then Mata has nobody to hit with that final ball because there's only 2 options ahead of him and only 1 that is actually in the box. We've sacrificed one player to include Kagawa.

 

[ivaldo]

Of course I've seen him play. How do you not see what he'd bring to the table? He'd have a much better effect on Mata than Kagawa, though maybe in a different way.

Rooney wasn't great today but whenever he did make a run it was mostly ignored. In fact, Kagawa had a glorious chance to put him through but massively overhit the ball and Rooney struggled to keep it in play. It's just not good enough.

You mean like when Kagawa DID put Rooney through but Rooney went too soon and fecked up his first touch anyway? Kagawa has been our best player over the last Month or so whereas Rooney has been dogshit these last 2 games. What do you have against Kagawa?

 

[Zak Smith]

Yes but they're also 2 of the best wingers in the world who we have no hope in signing. And Kagawa would be great alongside them, rather then them replacing him.

Jesus wept. I'd love to see how you would play them three together, Kagawa out wide on the right? I give up.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

Kagawa wasn't fine in attack at all. His sole purpose seems to be to roll the ball to Mata and Everton were happy to allow us to do that. Whenever the time came for Kagawa to play that incisive ball he fecked it up, just as he has done on many occasions in recent weeks. It's no good being able to keep the ball but not do anything with it. He won't last here if these last few weeks are all he has to offer.

At the moment I'm struggling to see what the real purpose of the guy is. After last season I thought he'd get better, but he is exactly what the Dortmund supporters described - a multiplier. Were we to bring in a better player, such as Reus, we'd probably quickly realise how limited Kagawa is as we'd have a player that can do all that Kagawa can plus a whole lot more.

"At the moment" You've never done anything but criticize him, so your opinion is extreme when it comes to Kagawa and should be ignored.

 

[pocco]

You mean like when Kagawa DID put Rooney through but Rooney went too soon and fecked up his first touch anyway? Kagawa has been our best player over the last Month or so whereas Rooney has been dogshit these last 2 games. What do you have against Kagawa?

I must have missed that one. I just remember the one where even John O'Shea could have rolled the ball into his path but Kagawa decided to cannon it and test Rooney's pace instead.

I have nothing against Kagawa. I loved the guy last season and thought he'd get better, but to say I've been underwhelmed by him this season is an understatement. The fact that we've now got Mata makes the situation even more bleak for Kagawa in my opinion.

 

[bosnian_red]

Jesus wept. I'd love to see how you would play them three together, Kagawa out wide on the right? I give up.

Them 3 rotating behind the striker? You know, they're all comfortable playing anywhere behind the striker. Not saying it's realistic, but I'd rather that then dropping Kagawa for inferior players.

Maybe we won't sign them, but you'd like to think that we could bring in players that have some of their qualities at least. Even if we could just add a bit of pace to our attack, it would make a huge difference. Neville and Carragher have been saying this a lot about us recently and I agree.

Kagawa might look good along side players of that ilk, but he's not as good as Mata in my opinion and we already have Mata. Kagawa would no doubt be the one to suffer if we had players like that on our books.

The situation with our play at the moment is a bit of a catch22 really. Mata/Kagawa look good in keeping the ball but then Mata has nobody to hit with that final ball because there's only 2 options ahead of him and only 1 that is actually in the box. We've sacrificed one player to include Kagawa.

I agree we need some pace. But Kagawa and Mata alongside someone like that and we'd make loads of chances (with a good manager). Even now it'd be good with the players we have. Also, we are using Rooney up top and he likes to drop back a lot, so that doesn't help either and is one of the main reasons Mata has nobody to hit with the final ball.
It's all a moot point as long as Moyes is manager because once RVP is fit, Rooney will drop back into the #10 role even though he's not that great there, forcing Mata out wide right, and as a result, our whole team will suffer.

 

[pocco]

"At the moment" You've never done anything but criticize him, so your opinion is extreme when it comes to Kagawa and should be ignored.

Based on what, your thorough research on my opinions on Kagawa? You should try looking harder. And I'm not the only one with this opinion of Kagawa. He's been criticised for his performances all season long.

 

[pocco]

Them 3 rotating behind the striker? You know, they're all comfortable playing anywhere behind the striker. Not saying it's realistic, but I'd rather that then dropping Kagawa for inferior players.

I agree we need some pace. But Kagawa and Mata alongside someone like that and we'd make loads of chances (with a good manager). Even now it'd be good with the players we have. Also, we are using Rooney up top and he likes to drop back a lot, so that doesn't help either and is one of the main reasons Mata has nobody to hit with the final ball.
It's all a moot point as long as Moyes is manager because once RVP is fit, Rooney will drop back into the #10 role even though he's not that great there, forcing Mata out wide right, and as a result, our whole team will suffer.

I just can't see it, I really can't. Even the best possession based and most creative teams of recent years have had some outstanding wide players and generally always set up with at least two of them. Get a good CM in that can link up with Mata, bring in a top wide player instead of Kagawa and we'll be better straight away in my opinion. Kagawa is effectively doing half the job of a CM whilst taking the place of a left winger/midfielder and it isn't working in my opinion.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

Based on what, your thorough research on my opinions on Kagawa? You should try looking harder. And I'm not the only one with this opinion of Kagawa. He's been criticised for his performances all season long.

Correct, there are two others. Three of you who spent months in the Kagawa thread posting comments that would make one think he raped your dog. The fact that I am aware of your name, just as I am aware of Mad Winger who is the polar opposite of you says it all.

But I do congratulate you for disappearing from the Kagawa thread when he began to play well, only to pop up today attempting to lay the blame at his feet. If anything, you're amazingly predictable.

 

[ivaldo]

I must have missed that one. I just remember the one where even John O'Shea could have rolled the ball into his path but Kagawa decided to cannon it and test Rooney's pace instead.

I have nothing against Kagawa. I loved the guy last season and thought he'd get better, but to say I've been underwhelmed by him this season is an understatement. The fact that we've now got Mata makes the situation even more bleak for Kagawa in my opinion.

Its easy to forget it when it complete goes against your point.

The strange thing for me is you seem to think its one or the other, I'm aware you don't beleive they can play in the same team together (I strongly disagree there and I think they've proved they can) but surely it would be in our best interest to keep both, it gives us strength in depth and they're both very different players giving us options.

 

[Zak Smith]

"At the moment" You've never done anything but criticize him, so your opinion is extreme when it comes to Kagawa and should be ignored.

Any opinion contrary to "Mata and Kagawa are great together" appears extreme to many in this ridiculous thread.

It's a pointless debate anyway as Kagawa will most likely be shown the door in the summer.

 

[Ace of Spades]

The problem today was not down to one single individual, and trying to blame anyone is useless. It is biased to somehow make Kagawa the problem, when Nani, Mata and Rooney were worse. Also, I don't think any one of Reus or Hazard would have impacted the result today nor changed our performance much either.

 

[pocco]

Correct, there are two others. Three of you who spent months in the Kagawa thread posting comments that would make one think he raped your dog. The fact that I am aware of your name, just as I am aware of Mad Winger who is the polar opposite of you says it all.

But I do congratulate you for disappearing from the Kagawa thread when he began to play well, only to pop up today attempting to lay the blame at his feet. If anything, you're amazingly predictable.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned in a few threads recently that Kagawa has been good and that I hoped he could build on it etc.

Well done.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned in a few threads recently that Kagawa has been good and that I hoped he could build on it etc.

Well done.

My opinion of remains.

So well done

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

Any opinion contrary to "Mata and Kagawa are great together" appears extreme to many in this ridiculous thread.

It's a pointless debate anyway as Kagawa will most likely be shown the door in the summer.

Notice I didn't respond to you. That means your opinion is valid. Except this post, of course.

 

[Zak Smith]

Notice I didn't respond to you. That means your opinion is valid. Except this post, of course.

I'm having a meltdown.

 

[freshibal]

kagawa was a bit meh the first 10 minutes and then settled down. i thought a few times that he and mata might have gotten in the way of each other, but i feel that was mainly because of rooney and nani clogging up the middle.

i feel mata and kagawa were the bright spots in the first half. and then Hernandez in the second.

rooney was terrible, there was one instance in the game where kagawa played rooney in perfectly, but rooney had some ridiculous touch and somehow managed to backheel it away from himself.

simple matter today was kagawa and mata didn't have their best performance today but were atleast good on some parts.

rooney was the weak link and terrible all throughout.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

I'm having a meltdown.

Well, that's understandable. You just watched a Manchester United that had zero ideas.

 

[Mad Winger]

Singling out the Kagawa - Mata combination today is meaningless.

Rooney and Nani were way worse. Smalling and Büttner offered nothing going forward as well. Combine this with the fact that we have the slowest and least mobile center midfield in the world, and you're basically asking Kagawa and Mata to perform miracles that could only happen under Fergie.

The jury's out on the rest of the team. We all know that Mata and Kagawa are class. We also know that we don't need a pacy runner on each wing. A pacy runner on one of the wings is more than enough if your fullbacks aren't completely useless.

 

[Zak Smith]

Singling out the Kagawa - Mata combination today is meaningless.

Rooney and Nani were way worse. Smalling and Büttner offered nothing going forward as well. Combine this with the fact that we have the slowest and least mobile center midfield in the world, and you're basically asking Kagawa and Mata to perform miracles that could only happen under Fergie.

The jury's out on the rest of the team. We all know that Mata and Kagawa are class. We also know that we don't need a pacy runner on each wing. A pacy runner on one of the wings is more than enough if your fullbacks aren't completely useless.

Thats true as well. I still stand by my opinion on Kagawa out wide, but the whole attack was made to look much worse by our fullbacks. Had Evra/Rafa started we would have looked a more balanced side.

 

[pocco]

This isn't just about Kagawa's individual performance, but also the role he plays in the team (or more the role we sacrifice to play him). The lack of width on the left is a part of the reason why the others played badly. Buttner was isolated whenever he moved forward and often found nobody to pass to. Rooney was in amongst a crowd of defenders because they weren't stretched at all horizontally. Nani often had 1 option in the box unless he made a move into the box himself, in which case he barely received the ball anyway.