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Dirty Schwein

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All this GOAT talk and not one of you feckers have mentioned the actual GOAT Lord Artem Lobov? And you call yourself fight fans... Y'all should be ashamed of yourselves!
 

justboy68

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I think there's no real need to consider a GOAT talk of wmma yet. It's still too young and too thin. So far it's just better to say Nunes de facto GOAT as the only one with a clear case. Beyond that just consider divisional GOAT's.

Nunes - Clear BW and FW goat up to now. (+ only case for p4p GOAT that will stand test of time)
Valentina - Clear FLW goat up to now.
Joanna - Clear SW goat up to now. (Yes she lost to Rose twice but styles make fights, overall she's been by far the most successful strawweight)
 

Dirty Schwein

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A better way to do GOAT conversations is by weight class. Who you got?

Flyweight: Mighty Mouse
Bantamweight: Cruz
Featherweight: Aldo (although Holloway is close)
Lightweight: Khabib
Welterweight: GSP
Middleweight: Silva (although Izzy is getting close)
Light Heavyweight: Jones
Heavyweight: Fedor ( Could argue Stipe)

Women's Strawweight: Joanna (although Zhang with a few more defences will overtake her)
Women's Flyweight: Shevchenko
Women's Bantamweight: Nunes
Women's Featherweight: Nunes (or Cyborg)

Overall: Artem Lobov
 

sammsky1

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Khabib Nurmagomedov vs. Justin Gaethje Breakdown | A Detailed Look at the 2nd Round Finish


 

Dirty Schwein

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This is probably spot on. Khabib's affiliations with Kadyrov and Putin will remain with him over time and inform his overall legacy - just as Jon Jones' legal troubles and flirtations with PED use will for him.
I don't think it's the same as someone's political alignment is not relevant to their performance in the cage, but the use of PEDs directly influence a fighters performance. This of course only comes into discussion if you're discussing their place as an in-cage fighter and not the person overall.
 

sammsky1

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This is probably spot on. Khabib's affiliations with Kadyrov and Putin will remain with him over time and inform his overall legacy - just as Jon Jones' legal troubles and flirtations with PED use will for him.
My problem with the article is it is totally lacking in empathy and assumes a western moral supremacy.
How Khabib's affiliations with Kadyrov and Putin are perceived depends on your political beliefs, nationality or culture. Eg: Russians and Dagestanis will feel different about them than people who find it problematic.
And even then, it never affected his MMA popularity or ability to attract PPV customers.
 

sammsky1

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The author is Egyptian.
writing for The guardian. Which means he is obviously extremely liberal in his opinions.
There are many in Dagestan who love that Khabib has these affiliations. Perhaps the author should recognise this.
 

Raoul

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I don't think it's the same as someone's political alignment is not relevant to their performance in the cage, but the use of PEDs directly influence a fighters performance. This of course only comes into discussion if you're discussing their place as an in-cage fighter and not the person overall.
There's no evidence Jones fought better due to alleged PED use, but nevertheless it will still follow him around, as will his run ins with the law. In Khabib's case, his affiliations won't go unnoticed because one can argue that appearing with Kadyrov provided him with a degree of legitimacy that enabled him to continue being a more effective dictator. Ditto with Putin.
 
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Raoul

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My problem with the article is it is totally lacking in empathy and assumes a western moral supremacy.
How Khabib's affiliations with Kadyrov and Putin are perceived depends on your political beliefs, nationality or culture. Eg: Russians and Dagestanis will feel different about them than people who find it problematic.
And even then, it never affected his MMA popularity or ability to attract PPV customers.
Everything does get framed from within western norms - which are human rights, gay rights, women's rights, democracy, pluralism etc, which obviously means Khabib will receive a degree of scrutiny if he embraces dictators. Just look at the flack Mo Salah took after being photographed with Kadyrov. Also, look at the UFC's reticence in doing big events in Moscow because they are sponsored by a variety of brands in the US, which won't tolerate their products being affiliated with dictators sitting in the front row of official UFC events.
 

sammsky1

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Everything does get framed from within western norms - which are human rights, gay rights, women's rights, democracy, pluralism etc, which obviously means Khabib will receive a degree of scrutiny if he embraces dictators. Just look at the flack Mo Salah took after being photographed with Kadyrov. Also, look at the UFC's reticence in doing big events in Moscow because they are sponsored by a variety of brands in the US, which won't tolerate their products being affiliated with dictators sitting in the front row of official UFC events.
Everything in the west gets framed within western norms, which is fine for those living here.

But within investigative journalism, it's a useless context, because it doesn't help you understand the motives of the character from his point of view, and his motives impact in the world he lives within. Personally, I expect better from The Guardian.
 

Raoul

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Everything in the west gets framed within western norms, which is fine for those living here.

But within investigative journalism, it's a useless context, because it doesn't help you understand the motives of the character from his point of view, and his motives impact in the world he lives within. Personally, I expect better from The Guardian.
In the case of Kadyrov, he is a well known homophobic dictator, so obviously that sort of thing won't be well received in any culture with the exception of those who are ok with homophobia and totalitarian governments. Its objective reality that transcends just western audiences.
 

Dirty Schwein

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There's no evidence Jones fought better due to alleged PED use, but nevertheless it will still follow him around, as will his run ins with the law. In Khabib's case, his affiliations won't go unnoticed because one can argue that appearing with Kadyrov provided him with a degree of legitimacy that enabled him to continue being a more effective dictator. Ditto with Putin.
But there IS evidence that Jones fought having used PEDs. PED as an acronym suggests that any use of it enhances your performance. He used a banned substance (regardless if it was a picogram or a shovel load) and that in itself is cheating. When talking about his in-cage performances, that is something that people will use against Jones and rightly so.

His run in with the law, smashing pregnant women etc will shroud his character and Khabib's will be shrouded by his political stances in a similar way, which is fair enough. But in terms of in-cage discussions, Khabib hasn't got a single blemish in terms of PEDs/general cheating (like Lord Romero).
 

Raoul

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But there IS evidence that Jones fought having used PEDs. PED as an acronym suggests that any use of it enhances your performance. He used a banned substance (regardless if it was a pictogram or a shovel load) and that in itself is cheating. When talking about his in-cage performances, that is something that people will use against Jones and rightly so.
The incredibly small amounts it takes to come up positive aren't enough to make any difference. At the end of the day its still about hard work and tactics. If Jones was on a full on TRT program like Vitor and a few others were a few years back until the UFC put an end to it, then yes, I would concede that would be an unfair advantage.

His run in with the law, smashing pregnant women etc will shroud his character and Khabib's will be shrouded by his political stances in a similar way, which is fair enough. But in terms of in-cage discussions, Khabib hasn't got a single blemish in terms of PEDs/general cheating (like Lord Romero).
I think the article does a good job of looking at the complexities of Khabib's legacy. His is clearly one of the best ever and if people only looked at Octagon performances then that would be the end of the debate. Unfortunately, when you combine the dictator issue with the McGregor brawl, that will provide ample material for those criticizing him to work with.
 

Dirty Schwein

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The incredibly small amounts it takes to come up positive aren't enough to make any difference. At the end of the day its still about hard work and tactics. If Jones was on a full on TRT program like Vitor and a few others were a few years back until the UFC put an end to it, then yes, I would concede that would be an unfair advantage.



I think the article does a good job of looking at the complexities of Khabib's legacy. His is clearly one of the best ever and if people only looked at Octagon performances then that would be the end of the debate. Unfortunately, when you combine the dictator issue with the McGregor brawl, that will provide ample material for those criticizing him to work with.
In terms of the PED stuff, I guess we can agree to disagree. For me, the amount is irrelevant. Even if the picogram did nothing in the DC fight, why was it in his system in the first place? And nobody knows for sure if he had done stuff like that before (hiding under the octagon and things like that don't help his cause). It also doesn't help that his performances since that test after DC2 have been shite. But as I said, that's just my personal opinion on that matter and I understand if other people chalk it off to a negligible amount.

As for that second point, yes I agree that if you are discussing beyond just octagon performances then these political stances and attempting to beat the shit out of team McGregor do open up a can of worms as to why Khabib isn't this super amazing guy, added to push-up gate, there is an argument to be made that Khabib does have some huge character flaws.
 

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Meh, most UFC fighters have character flaws. I mostly take whatever they say or do with a massive pinch of salt.

Khabib has had an excellent career and has certainly owned his weight class. A part of me always hoped he would go up a weight class and perform there as well, but we can't have everything.
 

Oggmonster

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My problem with the article is it is totally lacking in empathy and assumes a western moral supremacy.
How Khabib's affiliations with Kadyrov and Putin are perceived depends on your political beliefs, nationality or culture. Eg: Russians and Dagestanis will feel different about them than people who find it problematic.
And even then, it never affected his MMA popularity or ability to attract PPV customers.
I think Khabib could shoot a perfectly innocent person in broad daylight in front of everyone and you'd find a way to defend him.
 

RobinLFC

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I think Khabib could shoot a perfectly innocent person in broad daylight in front of everyone and you'd find a way to defend him.
It's a useless example because it doesn't help you understand the motives of Khabib from his point of view, and his motives impact in the world he lives within.

Dagestan might be totally okay with it!
 

Oldyella

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I never knew Dana was so loose with his praise on this subject. But you agree he is one of the few people who could make this judgement?

Perhaps his view on GOAT is an evolving opinion, which by definition a GOAT would be as new fighters achieve amazing feats?
If Dana told me the sky was blue I would go outside and check tbh.
 

Oggmonster

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It's a useless example because it doesn't help you understand the motives of Khabib from his point of view, and his motives impact in the world he lives within.

Dagestan might be totally okay with it!
True.

We need a list of what is ok in Dagestan and Khabib's culture so we can make sure not to unfairly criticise the poor lad.

So far we've got it's ok for him to:

Be homophobic
Be sexist
Be mates with dictators
Take gifts and money off dictators
Asking for the release of criminals in a post fight interview
Not being bothered that someone got threatened with rape cos you don't like clubs and bars
Pay homeless people money to do degrading stuff for your own entertainment.

We don't get it though, need to respect the culture more and realise all that is ok.

It seems that any time you can (rightfully) criticise him peple will jump down your throat and say you're either salty for some reason (which is such a weird thing to say) or imply you're racist for not agreeing with the way he thinks. Can't have a sensible debate surrounding him.
 

Paxi

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In the case of Kadyrov, he is a well known homophobic dictator, so obviously that sort of thing won't be well received in any culture with the exception of those who are ok with homophobia and totalitarian governments. Its objective reality that transcends just western audiences.
The whole region and Russia as whole is homophobic. It's a bit unfair to single out Khabib, you could probably single out 90% of Russian citizens. It's a byproduct of their environment. Homosexuality is bad and people whom don't condemn it can get labelled as a homosexual. It has been that was through the ages in Russia. Of course I'm not condoning the behaviour of the majority of Russians but when you risk being ostracised by all of your family, friends and associates, you'd probably keep quiet too.

Also his links to Kadyrov? You know he'd be signing his own death warrant and worse potentially breaking a fragile relationship Dagestan and Chechnya have if he were to disrespect Kadyrov. Putin is the president who hands out commendations, medals and awards for sporting achievements, Khabibs isn't his buddy ffs. Article doesn't take in to consideration the way things are in Russia and Dagestan.
 

Paxi

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Anyway, came to post this. Judging by his quotes, it doesn't seem like he has totally shut the door on fighting. Khabib is asking what's left for him, well I see a Conor rematch after he trash talks him to shit. Possibly an Event in Russia or Saudi Arabia. I see Khabib fighting one - I'm certain of it.

 

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The whole region and Russia as whole is homophobic. It's a bit unfair to single out Khabib, you could probably single out 90% of Russian citizens. It's a byproduct of their environment. Homosexuality is bad and people whom don't condemn it can get labelled as a homosexual. It has been that was through the ages in Russia. Of course I'm not condoning the behaviour of the majority of Russians but when you risk being ostracised by all of your family, friends and associates, you'd probably keep quiet too.

Also his links to Kadyrov? You know he'd be signing his own death warrant and worse potentially breaking a fragile relationship Dagestan and Chechnya have if he were to disrespect Kadyrov. Putin is the president who hands out commendations, medals and awards for sporting achievements, Khabibs isn't his buddy ffs. Article doesn't take in to consideration the way things are in Russia and Dagestan.
The problem being he's the one in the spotlight and the one who is being discussed with a legacy. I don't think random Dagestani or Russian blokes are on the same level as Khabib in terms of fame. Rightfully he will be criticised and scrutinised cos of who he is. There is counter arguments that is the culture over there but that doesn't mean he has to share them views. The confusion of this thread with Khabib fans is you literally can't criticise the guy without being accused of hating him or like I said previously people imply you're racist cos you don't agree with his views.

Really worth watching: Khabib shares his fight strategy and insights he used against Poirier with Putin.

Quite a bromance developing between these 2 strongmen!



I've read elsewhere (also in post below) that Putin and Khabib's dad Abdulmanap are creating massive UFC infrastructure across Russia and especially in Dagestan to further develop the sport, with the initial stated aim to take over Brazil as no 2 nation in UFC within 3 years.

Khabib's California coach Javier Mendez is a key part of the strategy, and he will exactly replicate his Cali gym in Dagestan, and spend considerable time in the region.

Its obvious Dana White is wetting himself at the $$$ prospect: suddenly, he is all chummy with Dagestani fighters, and reneged on his threat that Zubaria and Islam would never ever fight in UFC after they punched Mcgregor during the McG/Khabib post fight bedlam: both fought in Abu Dhabi.
He has Putin on speed dial so that's never gonna happen :lol:

Re not Putin's buddy, I mean Khabib's biggest fan in these 2 posts implies they're pretty close to each other? People need to make their mind up on that one.

I just honestly don't get how people can't criticise his views without it coming back on them. We've not heard from since Saturday how much of an honourable man he is cos he promised his mum something (which he is now going back on) surely we can discuss the other side of the argument?
 

sullydnl

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The whole region and Russia as whole is homophobic. It's a bit unfair to single out Khabib, you could probably single out 90% of Russian citizens. It's a byproduct of their environment. Homosexuality is bad and people whom don't condemn it can get labelled as a homosexual. It has been that was through the ages in Russia. Of course I'm not condoning the behaviour of the majority of Russians but when you risk being ostracised by all of your family, friends and associates, you'd probably keep quiet too.

Also his links to Kadyrov? You know he'd be signing his own death warrant and worse potentially breaking a fragile relationship Dagestan and Chechnya have if he were to disrespect Kadyrov. Putin is the president who hands out commendations, medals and awards for sporting achievements, Khabibs isn't his buddy ffs. Article doesn't take in to consideration the way things are in Russia and Dagestan.

I think that's a fair response to that line of argument.

In general though I get that the context of Khabib's background matters when criticising him for the various bad things he's done. But if people are praising him and (in some cases) holding him up as an admirable figure then those bad things also have to be part of the context for that too.
 

Paxi

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The problem being he's the one in the spotlight and the one who is being discussed with a legacy. I don't think random Dagestani or Russian blokes are on the same level as Khabib in terms of fame. Rightfully he will be criticised and scrutinised cos of who he is. There is counter arguments that is the culture over there but that doesn't mean he has to share them views. The confusion of this thread with Khabib fans is you literally can't criticise the guy without being accused of hating him or like I said previously people imply you're racist cos you don't agree with his views.





Re not Putin's buddy, I mean Khabib's biggest fan in these 2 posts implies they're pretty close to each other? People need to make their mind up on that one.

I just honestly don't get how people can't criticise his views without it coming back on them. We've not heard from since Saturday how much of an honourable man he is cos he promised his mum something (which he is now going back on) surely we can discuss the other side of the argument?
I agree regarding your point that Khabib should know better as his views are shared across the world. Yeah, I'd say Khabib is probably as homophobic as much as Kadyrov is. If Russia is homophobic, the caucasus region is turned up to 11 in homophobia.

Khabib is no angel in terms of how he treats others in Dagestan and in US. I've seen the videos and he can be extremely arrogant.

Regarding Putin, I don't think apart from meeting him for publicity there is anything there at all.
 

Paxi

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I think that's a fair response to that line of argument.

In general though I get that the context of Khabib's background matters when criticising him for the various bad things he's done. But if people are praising him and (in some cases) holding him up as an admirable figure then those bad things also have to be part of the context for that too.
Hes not taking into consideration how tribal the region is, and a snub from Khabib could be perceived as a slight to his close friend Zubaira Tukhugov, or any other chechen. These people are very sensitive to these things, and the guy who's writing the article, whilst making decent points, should thrust himself into that region and really understand how they operate. There is a lot of Chechen and Dagestani refugees that relocated to the part of the country that I'm originally from and honestly, I didn't even feel comfortable talking to them and still dont because I feel like anything I say could potentially set them off. They tend to overreact in the extreme so when he says Kadyrov wouldn't kill Russias top athlete, I wouldn't be so sure.
 

Dirty Schwein

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The whole region and Russia as whole is homophobic. It's a bit unfair to single out Khabib, you could probably single out 90% of Russian citizens. It's a byproduct of their environment. Homosexuality is bad and people whom don't condemn it can get labelled as a homosexual. It has been that was through the ages in Russia. Of course I'm not condoning the behaviour of the majority of Russians but when you risk being ostracised by all of your family, friends and associates, you'd probably keep quiet too.

Also his links to Kadyrov? You know he'd be signing his own death warrant and worse potentially breaking a fragile relationship Dagestan and Chechnya have if he were to disrespect Kadyrov. Putin is the president who hands out commendations, medals and awards for sporting achievements, Khabibs isn't his buddy ffs. Article doesn't take in to consideration the way things are in Russia and Dagestan.
There is some truth to this. One my my closest friends is from that part of the world and says whilst he doesn't share the political beliefs or views of those leaders, he also said if they came to his house, he would let them in with open arms due to fear of safety if he refuses.

Anyway, came to post this. Judging by his quotes, it doesn't seem like he has totally shut the door on fighting. Khabib is asking what's left for him, well I see a Conor rematch after he trash talks him to shit. Possibly an Event in Russia or Saudi Arabia. I see Khabib fighting one - I'm certain of it.

He won't come back for McGregor. If he wanted that, he could have had that by now. He seems intent of legacy and I think a GSP fight could draw him back in. It wouldn't have a messy build up, a true hero in the sport is GSP and it would be something that Khabib may feel will enhance his legacy.
 

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The whole region and Russia as whole is homophobic. It's a bit unfair to single out Khabib, you could probably single out 90% of Russian citizens. It's a byproduct of their environment. Homosexuality is bad and people whom don't condemn it can get labelled as a homosexual. It has been that was through the ages in Russia. Of course I'm not condoning the behaviour of the majority of Russians but when you risk being ostracised by all of your family, friends and associates, you'd probably keep quiet too.

Also his links to Kadyrov? You know he'd be signing his own death warrant and worse potentially breaking a fragile relationship Dagestan and Chechnya have if he were to disrespect Kadyrov. Putin is the president who hands out commendations, medals and awards for sporting achievements, Khabibs isn't his buddy ffs. Article doesn't take in to consideration the way things are in Russia and Dagestan.
This is Khabib’s issue not that of people in the normal western world where Khabib earns his living and where homophobia is widely rejected. He had the option of fighting in Russian or Chechen MMA leagues but instead opted for the UFC, which was the right decision, but was never guaranteed to be absent of criticism for his political affiliations with dictators.
 

sullydnl

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Hes not taking into consideration how tribal the region is, and a snub from Khabib could be perceived as a slight to his close friend Zubaira Tukhugov, or any other chechen. These people are very sensitive to these things, and the guy who's writing the article, whilst making decent points, should thrust himself into that region and really understand how they operate. There is a lot of Chechen and Dagestani refugees that relocated to the part of the country that I'm originally from and honestly, I didn't even feel comfortable talking to them and still dont because I feel like anything I say could potentially set them off. They tend to overreact in the extreme so when he says Kadyrov wouldn't kill Russias top athlete, I wouldn't be so sure.
Tbf the author has written extensively on Khabib, Kadyrov and Dagestan in the past (more so than any other journalist I'm aware of), so I'm sure he's at least somewhat aware of the context.

You can see a list of his articles covering Kadyrov here.
 

Paxi

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Tbf the author has written extensively on Khabib, Kadyrov and Dagestan in the past (more so than any other journalist I'm aware of), so I'm sure he's at least somewhat aware of the context.

You can see a list of his articles covering Kadyrov here.
So why does he then not take into consideration the potential repercussions Khabib could face by snubbing Kadyrov. It could cause tension between Chechens and Avars too.
 

Paxi

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This is Khabib’s issue not that of people in the normal western world where Khabib earns his living and where homophobia is widely rejected. He had the option of fighting in Russian or Chechen MMA leagues but instead opted for the UFC, which was the right decision, but was never guaranteed to be absent of criticism for his political affiliations with dictators.
Fair point.
 

Paxi

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There is some truth to this. One my my closest friends is from that part of the world and says whilst he doesn't share the political beliefs or views of those leaders, he also said if they came to his house, he would let them in with open arms due to fear of safety if he refuses.


He won't come back for McGregor. If he wanted that, he could have had that by now. He seems intent of legacy and I think a GSP fight could draw him back in. It wouldn't have a messy build up, a true hero in the sport is GSP and it would be something that Khabib may feel will enhance his legacy.
I think most in Russia, regardless of their political beliefs would let someone very very powerful into their homes out of fear. Being rich and famous doesn't change that.

I just don't see it with GSP. I mean how old is GSP? What would Khabib gain by beating past it, retired fighter?
 

Paxi

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@sullydnl I looked through that journalists articles and one thing is clear to me, is how powerful Kadyrov is, how much he uses sport to sportsmanship his image. Nothing i didn't know but Khabib snubbing him would be a major issue for Kadyrov. I don't blame Khabib not wanting to look over his shoulder for an absolute psycho for a president.

Regarding homophobia, if Khabib has nothing good to say than he should keep his mouth closed at the very least. Though, like I said, he is a byproduct of social conditioning to hate gays. I don't mean name calling. I mean execution. So do you blame the society that he grew up in or the individual. Again, I'm not condoning homophobia or Khabib but he's been brought up in hate. I'm lucky I moved from Russia when I was 10 and I'm very tolerant and Liberal id say but if I haven't, the chances are I'd be the same.
 

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I think most in Russia, regardless of their political beliefs would let someone very very powerful into their homes out of fear. Being rich and famous doesn't change that.

I just don't see it with GSP. I mean how old is GSP? What would Khabib gain by beating past it, retired fighter?
I agree with you which is why I said Khabib may think this as he's mentioned GSP many times.