The MMA thread

[sullydnl]

Alvarez was a weak champion who was never going to be able to hold the belt for long. He lost his first UFC fight to Cerrone (who is the definition of a journeyman fighter), then eeked out two split decisions. That was enough to get him a title shot in which he was a 3 to 1 underdog. Having managed to win in what was by far the best result of his UFC career, he promptly got demolished by McGregor. He then followed that with a no contest, a win and a loss.

Those aren't the results of a world class fighter.

 

[Maluco]

He just about squeaked past Nate in that second fight. Remember, Nate is also a 155 fighter, so they were both going up in weight, not just McGregor. Nate is also a journeyman, not some Goliath that had to be conquered. Look what Masvidal and Rory did to him at 170.

Alvarez isn't a bum, but he was one of the weakest 155 champions of recent memory. His win against RDA was good but look at his run up to that fight. Apart from the Pettis fight, he was pretty lucky in most of them. Nowhere near his peak I'd say.

McGregor was good but should be nowhere near the top 10.

Haha, I can see I am outnumbered here, but I will say again, it’s very easy to go through everyone’s records and take away fights where certain fighters weren’t at their best, or have been discredited since. I just don’t think you can do that. You have to see it for what it was at the time, and they were incredible, explosive wins over the best on offer at they time.

I won’t defend him anymore, but my initial point was that he would destroy Amanda Nunes, not really to open a top 10 debate. Opinions are just opinions as far as that goes. Everyone will value different aspects differently, so peoples lists will always be varied.

 

[Maluco]

I didn't use their records so I don't really know where your first sentence come from. And funnily enough in the next sentence that's exactly what you do, Aldo wasn't at his peak and he was around for a while, he was an old 28 years old, he was losing steam in his last fights.

But the important part is your last sentence, that territory is arguably not top 10, you could squeeze one of them in there but that's about it.

My point was that you can’t go back and talk about what fighters were and weren’t like at the time. They were fantastic wins then and that’s all that matters. Aldo was seen as the best in the world then and the win and the style of it shocked the world.

I don’t think we are far away in opinion anyway, Miocic and Hughes are hall of fame fighters who would certainly be battling it out for top 20, so it’s all opinions at that stage. Miocic has an argument as the best HW of all time, especially if he beats Cormier again, so that’s good company.

 

[JPRouve]

My point was that you can’t go back and talk about what fighters were and weren’t like at the time. They were fantastic wins then and that’s all that matters. Aldo was seen as the best in the world then and the win and the style of it shocked the world.

I don’t think we are far away in opinion anyway, Miocic and Hughes are hall of fame fighters who would certainly be battling it out for top 20, so it’s all opinions at that stage. Miocic has an argument as the best HW of all time, especially if he beats Cormier again, so that’s good company.

I can't agree with that if we are ranking fighters then we have to look at what the fighters were and weren't at the time otherwise it makes no sense and we are essentially doing what you criticized which is simply looking at records. No one said that they weren't fantastic wins or that McGregor isn't a fantastic fighter but keep in mind that you talked about top 10, they are all fantastic fighters and they all have fantastic wins, what separate them is the level of competition and longevity otherwise we put Weidman in the top 10 because he beat the arguable GOAT and add Rockhold because he beat Weidman.

In my opinion McGregor only beat two very good fighters Aldo and Mendes, neither make him top 10. And to be honest, Khabib made sure to keep him out of that conversation until he beats someone actually good, that is in his prime.

 

[Maluco]

I can't agree with that if we are ranking fighters then we have to look at what the fighters were and weren't at the time otherwise it makes no sense and we are essentially doing what you criticized which is simply looking at records. No one said that they weren't fantastic wins or that McGregor isn't a fantastic fighter but keep in mind that you talked about top 10, they are all fantastic fighters and they all have fantastic wins, what separate them is the level of competition and longevity otherwise we put Weidman in the top 10 because he beat the arguable GOAT and add Rockhold because he beat Weidman.

In my opinion McGregor only beat two very good fighters Aldo and Mendes, neither make him top 10. And to be honest, Khabib made sure to keep him out of that conversation until he beats someone actually good, that is in his prime.

If you do that, you start to make excuses and discredit so many wins for different and varied reasons. That’s why it’s so variable, different people will put different weight on different wins, accomplishments and fighting styles. It’s what makes the sport so interesting, but it also makes definite lists impossible to agree on, even between 2 or 3 people.

In my opinion, his accomplishments, influence and the style and impact of his finishes have him in the conversation. It’s no problem to disagree and it’s a valid opinion to have and I wouldn’t bat an eye at him being outside the Top 20 for some. It’s all a case of perspective.

 

[Raoul]

That’s the nature of MMA though isn’t it? Look what happened to Holloway after his loss, to Aldo, to Garbrandt, to Rousey, to Anderson Silva, to Fedor and the list goes on.

Many fighters who go on streaks have patchy records after the big loss eventually comes. The pressure ramps up, doubts set in and it can be hard to get it back.

It doesn’t take away from how good Alvarez was at that time. He even beat Gaethje after that.

Honestly, sounding more and more like a mega Conor fan, I’m not! I just think that he has had a remarkable career and is certainly in the conversation for top 10, in my opinion. He is a lethal, clinical striker and has had some magic finishes. His win over Cerrone shows just how far he is above the gatekeepers of that division. He was only beaten by the very, very best (that he wasn’t able to redeem)

Alvarez has won 5 of his past 10 fights dating back to before the Conor fight. Literally no one thinks he was great. Conor also lost to Nate, who was smoking weed on a boat in Cabo when he got the short notice call from Dana to fight. In Conor's defense, he's easily the promotion GOAT.

 

[Maluco]

Alvarez has won 5 of his past 10 fights dating back to before the Conor fight. Literally no one thinks he was great. Conor also lost to Nate, who was smoking weed on a boat in Cabo when he got the short notice call from Dana to fight. In Conor's defense, he's easily the promotion GOAT.

Alvarez was fighting real quality around that time, a guy who rose to the top in any promotion he fought in, I just think it’s harsh on Alvarez. It’s a great win against a guy who has had a great career and has never been made to look as bad as he was that night. It’s one of THE great performances in my opinion.

Like I said before though, I am not going to die on the Conor sword. I can easily accept that some don’t rate him as much.

 

[Luke1995]

Gustafsson to take on Werdum in fight island

 

[2cents]

Best thing about McGregor is that he’s a real pleasure to watch when he’s in the mood. That loose, fluid style and movement he has is very easy on the eye, coupled with the explosive finishes it’s easy to understand his popularity as a fighter (putting aside the outside the cage stuff). Obviously doesn’t necessarily make him an all-time Top 10 fighter, but he’s certainly left his mark on the sport.

 

[Berbaclass]

Best thing about McGregor is that he’s a real pleasure to watch when he’s in the mood. That loose, fluid style and movement he has is very easy on the eye, coupled with the explosive finishes it’s easy to understand his popularity as a fighter (putting aside the outside the cage stuff). Obviously doesn’t necessarily make him an all-time Top 10 fighter, but he’s certainly left his mark on the sport.

He's got that ability to make people invested one way or another, that's what I think it boils down to. People either want to see him KO somebody or get KO'd himself. You either love him or hate him.

He's responsible for the top 5 UFC PPV buys of all time.

I watch UFC now myself because I got interested in it because of him. The first proper fight I watched live was Khabib v McGregor.

 

[Tel074]

He's got that ability to make people invested one way or another, that's what I think it boils down to. People either want to see him KO somebody or get KO'd himself. You either love him or hate him.

He's responsible for the top 5 UFC PPV buys of all time.

I watch UFC now myself because I got interested in it because of him. The first proper fight I watched live was Khabib v McGregor.

Yeah love or hate Conor he is the mega star of MMA . He obviously isn't near the best fighter ever in MMA but he is the biggest star . I'd rather watch Conor fight and win some lose some than watch a Khabib hugging borefest

 

[Berbaclass]

Yeah love or hate Conor he is the mega star of MMA . He obviously isn't near the best fighter ever in MMA but he is the biggest star . I'd rather watch Conor fight and win some lose some than watch a Khabib hugging borefest

That's one thing I have found interesting.

Like I said I got into UFC in the build up of the Khabib fight and I went back and watched Conor fight Nate/Aldo/Alvarez etc so when the fight happened and I experienced Khabib's wrestling style I found that interesting.

All the fights I have watched since I have not really enjoyed it when fighters wrestle more than standup.

 

[Berbaclass]

I think we'll get

Justin v Khabib - Justin wins
Conor v Justin - Conor wins
Conor v Khabib II - ???

 

[Raoul]

He's got that ability to make people invested one way or another, that's what I think it boils down to. People either want to see him KO somebody or get KO'd himself. You either love him or hate him.

He's responsible for the top 5 UFC PPV buys of all time.

I watch UFC now myself because I got interested in it because of him. The first proper fight I watched live was Khabib v McGregor.

Most people who have been watching UFC for a decade or more are less enthusiastic about hype merchants like McGregor and more interested in proper fighters who approach the game with a bit more humility. If he’s going to stay at 155, he is going to need to go through Gaetjie and Ferguson if he ever wants another chance at Khabib.

 

[Maluco]

Most people who have been watching UFC for a decade or more are less enthusiastic about hype merchants like McGregor and more interested in proper fighters who approach the game with a bit more humility. If he’s going to stay at 155, he is going to need to go through Gaetjie and Ferguson if he ever wants another chance at Khabib.

To be fair, I’m not an expert by any means, but I watch almost every event, listen to various podcasts regularly and started watching back when Arlovski was champion, on a regular basis.

I think it’s a bit unfair to say that serious fans are interested in “proper fighters”. Or that anyone who rates Conor has just bought into hype. There would be plenty of picks you would agree with were I to do a top 10/20.

It doesn’t make someone less of a fan or less knowledgeable to rate someone who has been hyped. It also doesn’t mean that someone understands or knows less if they give weight to certain styles.

I much prefer watching Justin ahead of Khabib for example. That doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate how good Khabib is.

 

[Berbaclass]

Most people who have been watching UFC for a decade or more are less enthusiastic about hype merchants like McGregor and more interested in proper fighters who approach the game with a bit more humility. If he’s going to stay at 155, he is going to need to go through Gaetjie and Ferguson if he ever wants another chance at Khabib.

I'm not sure Dana sees it that way.

 

[Raoul]

I'm not sure Dana sees it that way.

Dana cares about money, which every Conor fight makes. He got about 2m PPVs against a washed up Cowboy, so he would do the same against Gaetjie or Ferguson.

 

[George Owen]

Most people who have been watching UFC for a decade or more are less enthusiastic about hype merchants like McGregor and more interested in proper fighters who approach the game with a bit more humility. If he’s going to stay at 155, he is going to need to go through Gaetjie and Ferguson if he ever wants another chance at Khabib.

Nah. IF Khabib fights Gathje, Conor would fight the winner right away.

And I say big IF, because I wouldn't be surprised at the slightest, if somehow Conor fights Khabib next right away. ("Justin need to take care of some "injuries", but no worries, Conor has stepped up!!! What a man!!!")

 

[cyberman]

Nah. IF Khabib fights Gathje, Conor would fight the winner right away.

And I say big IF, because I wouldn't be surprised at the slightest, if somehow Conor fights Khabib next right away. ("Justin need to take care of some "injuries", but no worries, Conor has stepped up!!! What a man!!!")

Its weird how Conor fighting the greatest 155er of all time is spun as Conor taking the easy route.
Wouldn't he wait for the easier fight in the hope Justin wins?

 

[Berbaclass]

Dana cares about money, which every Conor fight makes. He got about 2m PPVs against a washed up Cowboy, so he would do the same against Gaetjie or Ferguson.

I'm not disputing that. I think you're right but Conor will fight the winner of Justin v Khabib 100%, Dana want's that live gate money from Conor.

 

[Berbaclass]

Nah. IF Khabib fights Gathje, Conor would fight the winner right away.

And I say big IF, because I wouldn't be surprised at the slightest, if somehow Conor fights Khabib next right away. ("Justin need to take care of some "injuries", but no worries, Conor has stepped up!!! What a man!!!")

This. I think there's possibly too much money to be lost out on. It would be the biggest money fight in UFC history, it would surpass the first one IMO.

 

[Raoul]

Nah. IF Khabib fights Gathje, Conor would fight the winner right away.

And I say big IF, because I wouldn't be surprised at the slightest, if somehow Conor fights Khabib next right away. ("Justin need to take care of some "injuries", but no worries, Conor has stepped up!!! What a man!!!")

Frankly I don't get the fascination over Conor getting a rematch v Khabib. He humiliated him in the first fight (as he does all of his opponents).

 

[George Owen]

Its weird how Conor fighting the greatest 155er of all time is spun as Conor taking the easy route.
Wouldn't he wait for the easier fight in the hope Justin wins?

Not having to earn a title shot is the easy route, obviously. Dana won't risk Conor fighting (and losing) any top lightweight outside a title fight. The money wouldn't be anything closer to what he would make if he fights Khabib.

While losing to the GOHT (Greatest of his time), Khabib, wouldn't be seen as such a big loss to Conor. He could still fight and make a lot of money after that.

 

[George Owen]

Frankly I don't get the fascination over Conor getting a rematch v Khabib. He humiliated him in the first fight (as he does all of his opponents).

Hey but he won a round while high on cocaine. That's a first (Khabib losing a round).

Easier to hype that rematch than hyping the guy who lost to Eddie Alvarez and Dustin Poirier to beat Khabib.

Outside Tony, who sadly is way past his prime now, I can't think of any fascinating match up for Khabib. He gonna smesh them all. At least with Conor, everybody will make a shit load of money (And money is what fascinates Dana).

 

[Berbaclass]

Hey but he won a round while high on cocaine. That's a first (Khabib losing a round).

Easier to hype that rematch than hyping the guy who lost to Eddie Alvarez and Dustin Poirier to beat Khabib.

Outside Tony, who sadly is way past his prime now, I can't think of any fascinating match up for Khabib. He gonna smesh them all. At least with Conor, everybody will make a shit load of money (And money is what fascinates Dana).

Surely that's not true. He's the most tested fighter there is IIRC.

 

[George Owen]

Surely that's not true. He's the most tested fighter there is IIRC.

I mean of course not during the fight, but for those 2 years period going between the Eddie Alvarez fight and Khabib fight.

He was definitely abusing substances, plus Mayweather scrambled his brain so bad he would never be the same again.

 

[Berbaclass]

I mean of course not during the fight, but for those 2 years period going between the Eddie Alvarez fight and Khabib fight.

He was definitely abusing substances, plus Mayweather scrambled his brain so bad he would never be the same again.

Yeah, undoubtedly.

 

[George Owen]

Early prelims starting in 4 hours.

UFC 250 fight card

• Amanda Nunes (c) -650 vs. Felicia Spencer +475 -- Women's featherweight title
• Cody Garbrandt -150 vs. Raphael Assuncao +125 -- Bantamweights
• Aljamain Sterling -120 vs. Cory Sandhagen +100 -- Bantamweights
• Neil Magny -150 vs. Anthony Rocco Martin +125 -- Welterweights
• Sean O'Malley -490 vs. Eddie Wineland +370 -- Bantamweights
• Chase Hooper -170 vs. Alex Caceres +145 -- Featherweights
• Ian Heinisch -125 vs. Gerald Meerschaert +105 -- Middleweights
• Cody Stamann -280 vs Brian Kelleher +230 -- Bantamweights
• Charles Byrd -180 vs. Maki Pitolo +155 -- Middleweights
• Alex Perez -135 vs. Jussier Formiga +115 -- Flyweights
• Alonzo Menifield -220 vs. Devin Clark +180 -- Light heavyweights
• Herbert Burns -220 vs. Evan Dunham +180 -- 150-pound catchweights

Pumped as feck for the Sterling vs Sandhagen fight. I think Sandhagen is the better fighter overall, but Sterling maybe too strong for him if he can close the distance? The smaller cage might benefit him.

 

[stevoc]

I can't agree with that if we are ranking fighters then we have to look at what the fighters were and weren't at the time otherwise it makes no sense and we are essentially doing what you criticized which is simply looking at records. No one said that they weren't fantastic wins or that McGregor isn't a fantastic fighter but keep in mind that you talked about top 10, they are all fantastic fighters and they all have fantastic wins, what separate them is the level of competition and longevity otherwise we put Weidman in the top 10 because he beat the arguable GOAT and add Rockhold because he beat Weidman.

In my opinion McGregor only beat two very good fighters Aldo and Mendes, neither make him top 10. And to be honest, Khabib made sure to keep him out of that conversation until he beats someone actually good, that is in his prime.

Harsh on Holloway, Poirier and Alvarez.

 

[George Owen]

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Of course it is...

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Frankly I don't get the fascination over Conor getting a rematch v Khabib. He humiliated him in the first fight (as he does all of his opponents).

They'll spin the narrative that McGregor won a round and also that he is great at rematches (because he won ONE rematch ). The rivalry is there already and more people have eyes on it ever since Khabib jumped that cage. Pure bad blood equals big big numbers.

 

[JPRouve]

Harsh on Holloway, Poirier and Alvarez.

Not really. Alvarez was an average fighter, while Poirier and Holloway were young fighters learning their trades, he didn't face prime Holloway or the current Poirier.

 

[Raoul]

Not really. Alvarez was an average fighter, while Poirier and Holloway were young fighters learning their trades, he didn't face prime Holloway or the current Poirier.

Spot on. He was definitely mediocre by champion standards.

 

[stevoc]

Not really. Alvarez was an average fighter, while Poirier and Holloway were young fighters learning their trades, he didn't face prime Holloway or the current Poirier.

Alvarez was average but Chad Mendes was a very good fighter?

McGregor wasn't in his prime either when he beat both those guys, both are now very good fighters. Holloway being one of the best ever at 145. McGregor's actions over the last 2 years have resulted in me losing any respect i had for him really. But theres some serious underrating of his career going on in here lately and i get why. Going off the last few pages everyone he's beat was either average, a journeyman or he beat them before they were in their prime. Someone reading it who doesn't follow MMA would wonder how he managed to win 2 world titles in 3 weight divisions while beating everyone he's fought bar Khabib.

It happens with others fighters too like Cejudo, but if people took a step back and looked at it objectively they might think they are being a bit biased in rating McGregors career. (which i understand given his behaviour) I don't think he's the best ever, or even one of them until he does a lot more. But he's had a cracking career so far and beat a lot of good and very good fighters.

 

[JPRouve]

Alvarez was average but Chad Mendes was a very good fighter?

McGregor wasn't in his prime either when he beat both those guys, both are now very good fighters. Holloway being one of the best ever at 145. McGregor's actions over the last 2 years have resulted in me losing any respect i had for him really. But theres some serious underrating of his career going on in here lately and i get why. Going off the last few pages everyone he's beat was either average, a journeyman or he beat them before they were in their prime. Someone reading it who doesn't follow MMA would wonder how he managed to win 2 world titles in 3 weight divisions while beating everyone he's fought bar Khabib.

It happens with others fighters too like Cejudo, but if people took a step back and looked at it objectively they might think they are being a bit biased in rating McGregors career. (which i understand given his behaviour) I don't think he's the best ever, or even one of them until he does a lot more. But he's had a cracking career so far and beat a lot of good and very good fighters.

The problem here is that you do'nt seem to get the context of the posts, someone made the point that he was definitely a Top 10 fighter of all time, all the posts are in that context and I explicitely stated that he was a fantastic fighter like all the fighter that I mentioned, at the exception of Alvarez who is rated by no one.
For me Mendes was a better fighter in his division than Alvarez, the difference is that one had Aldo at the top. McGregor beating Mendes and Aldo was a great feat but it doesn't put you in the top 10 because all the other candidates did the same type of things but with more quantity and longevity.

And I love McGregor the fighter, I'm perfectly able to separate the fighter and the man when I judge his career.

 

[Raoul]

The problem here is that you do'nt seem to get the context of the posts, someone made the point that he was definitely a Top 10 fighter of all time, all the posts are in that context and I explicitely stated that he was a fantastic fighter like all the fighter that I mentioned, at the exception of Alvarez who is rated by no one.
For me Mendes was a better fighter in his division than Alvarez, the difference is that one had Aldo at the top. McGregor beating Mendes and Aldo was a great feat but it doesn't put you in the top 10 because all the other candidates did the same type of things but with more quantity and longevity.

And I love McGregor the fighter, I'm perfectly able to separate the fighter and the man when I judge his career.

Also worth mentioning Mendes took the McGregor fight on short notice and completely manhandled Conor before gassing. You have to wonder how he would've fared with a proper camp.

 

[George Owen]

Early prelims about to start.

 

[George Owen]

What a slick choke by Herbert Burns.

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Wasn't even under the chin. Must have helluva grip.

 

[Raoul]

Menifield looks like a roided up Nani

 

[Raoul]

Wow....didn't expect that result.