The Modern Draft FINALS !!! - Theon vs Skizzo

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

...................... Team Theon ...................................................................... Team Skizzo ..........................................

Spoiler: Skizzo Sub 14-4

Team Theon

TACTICS

A balanced and complimentary 4-3-3 system - A devastating front three supported by an intimidating midfield filled with leadership, work-rate and technical ability and a world class defence capable of keeping a clean sheet against any attack.

ATTACK

The attack is multi faceted and well balanced, with the raw pace and trickery of Ronaldinho and Robben on the wings well supported by the physically dominant and technical Ibrahimovic - A 6 ft 5 colossus who has scored 128 goals in his last 157 games.

On the counter attack Zlatan will be the focal point, equally capable of running in behind himself or holding up the play to release Ronaldinho or Arjen Robben cutting inside. The Swede is capable of scoring from any type of position and the supply he has here is frightening – whether it is Robben attacking Evra on the outside to whip in a cross or Ronaldinho drifting behind Cambiasso to slip in a through ball.

MIDFIELD

Two industrious warriors in Schweinsteiger and Mascherano shield the defence whilst Wesley Sneijder adds a touch of quality and composure in the final third. The midfield is intimidating and physically dominating with players proven at the very highest level – All three have won national titles, all three have won the Champions League and all three have reached the final of the World Cup.

In Bastian Schweinsteiger the side has arguably the most complete central midfielder of the last decade - leading Bayern Munich to a historic treble in 2012/13 and winning the World Cup in 2014 in which Schweinsteiger was MOTM in the Final. Against an Xavi/Iniesta led Barcelona in 2013 Schweinsteiger dominated both legs – ensuring a historic 7-0 aggregate win in the semi finals of the Champions League.

DEFENCE

At the heart of the defence, Vidic and Thiago Silva form a lovely stopper/cover partnership with Silva's speed, athleticism and ball playing ability well complimented by Vidic's tenacity, bravery and dominance in the air. Albiol will play deep behind Robben and keep it secure on the right, while Ashley Cole will play more adventurously on the left and double up on the opposition with Ronaldinho. In goal David De Gea provides the last line of defence - not to be underestimated, particularly given his form this season.

[/QUOTE]

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Team Skizzo

The Team
Our team will be lining up in a 4-2-3-1 formation. Thibaut Courtois will be our man between the sticks. The back four is made up of three members of the great Athletico Madrid defence which has been so stingy over the last few seasons. Diego Godin and Miranda form the central partnership, a partnership which has been able to shut out opposing teams, and score quite a few themselves with set pieces. Patrice Evra and Juanfran take the full back spots.

In Midfield we have Estaban Cambiasso and Philipp Lahm. Cambiasso will be the slightly more withdrawn of the two, focusing more on the defensive side, looking to break up attacks and track runners. Kroos will use his fantastic positioning and reading of the game to look to close down passing lanes, and disrupt the flow of the opposition's attack.

The front four is made up of a fluid unit, consisting of Franck Ribery, Thomas Muller, Andres Iniesta, and Robert Lewandowski leading the line. The three attacking midfielders are all mobile, and will look to constantly be moving, causing a huge problem for the opposition. Lewandowski has been called the most complete forward in the World over the last few years, and he would thrive on the movement, passing, and ability of the men behind him.


Why we would win

On paper a star studded attack featuring Ibrahimovic, Robben, Sneijder and Ronaldinho looks virtually unstoppable, right? Upon further inspection from a holistic and tactical perspective, it wouldn't appear to be the case though. Imho, this is a classical case of shoehorning too many star names at the criminal cost of a cohesive team, which in turn, results in the said star names each not performing at their expected 100%. Let me make my case.

When you have a glorious match winner, you'd ideally wish to cater to their strengths, provide them with the tactical freedom and the right system to flourish. Which was what was done for the likes of Ibrahimovic, Robben, Sneijder and Ronaldinho in their respective teams. As much as they were sole match winners, they were also fairly difficult and rigid tactically, absolutely needing the right system and personnel around them to flourish (a worthy compromise).

All of them do their best work with the ball at their feet. Ronaldinho likes to drift centrally. Robben likes to drift centrally. Ibrahimovic likes to drop deep. Sneijder likes to operate in the hole. Four players who all need the ball to be at their best, and who all work in the same area.

On the flip side, our offense is balanced with three attackers who can all play selflessly, but also be clinical when needed. They've shown they can play and work together at one of the best club sides over the past few years (and this season). Iniesta thrives with movement ahead of him, and with Lewandowski, Ribery, and Muller, he has that in abundance. Iniesta will also add defensive work by dropping into midfield to press when we don't have the ball. An aspect that Sneijder won't be as effective with on the other side.

He has a fearsome attack with some gifted individuals but it is fragmented and I honestly can't see it performing as a sum of its parts to get the better of my defense. Two fantastic DM's shield my back four. My defense is comprised of the one of the best left backs in the World over the past seasons, and 3/4 of the best defense in club football over the past couple of seasons.

The teams are set up in similar styles, but the biggest difference is how everything works together. As stated, both defences are incredible, and both have great players shielding them. The difference is that our attack is set up to stretch the play and pull his defenders out of position, opening spaces to exploit. All of his best attackers do their best work in the same central area...which plays directly into the most congested area of the pitch, negating most of this threat.

Good luck Theon.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Theon @Skizzo

Game on. All the best!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Rado_N @Damien

Usual poll please.

At players career peaks , who will win the match?
- Team Theon
- Team Skizzo

Poll for 24hrs. Public Poll. View results without voting. Can change votes.

 

[Isotope]

Which team have the hottest WAGs?
Or maybe that's for the next draft? WAGs draft.

 

[Physiocrat]

First thoughts are that Ronaldinho is bad fit for Ibra dropping deep and playmaking. Robben and Sneijda are fine contra Skizzo. Mascherno though is a good upgrade on Khedira. I would have put Mascherno as the pivot in front of the back four to allow Schwiensteiger and Sneijda to start deeper and bomb on.

Skizzo has a well oiled machine but has much less creativity and Theon's defence is top notch.

Leaning towards Theon

 

[Theon]

Ronaldinho and Robben are the two best dribblers on the pitch and the two best at taking on their fullback on the outside, so I don't agree at all that its a centrally orientated attack. Both of them are multidimensional attackers and Robben for instance will often cut inside to have a shot at goal, but it's madness to imply that's what they do all the time or that they don't stretch the pitch out wide.

Ronaldinho is by a distance the best forward on the pitch and he'll take Juanfran on all game. His passing was excellent and I could see him assisting Ibrahimovic with a through ball of some sort, but Ronaldinho's best asset was always his agility and dribbling ability. Much like Robben, he's capable of beating his fullback and creating a chance out of nothing.

I disagree also that he can't play with other great players or that he'll get crowded out. Ronaldinho, Rivaldo and Ronaldo managed to play pretty well together after all and that's a more centrally orientated attack than this one.

 

[Theon]

Mascherno though is a good upgrade on Khedira. I would have put Mascherno as the pivot in front of the back four to allow Schwiensteiger and Sneijda to start deeper and bomb on.

Schweinsteiger will bomb on here - maybe should have mentioned it in the OP but for the sake of clarification Mascherano will now be the holder of the two.

That was actually the main reason I upgraded Khedira for Mascherano and not for Vidal. When partnered with Vidal/Khedira then Schweinsteiger would still have to be the positionally disciplined of the two, whereas Mascherano allows Schweinsteiger to play more box to box. It's more similar to Schweinsteiger's partnership with Martinez and IMO of all the upgrades available for that position Mascherano offered the most balance to the side, whilst also freeing up Schweinsteiger - the best central midfielder on the pitch by a distance - to take control of the game.

 

[NM]

Theon easily here. Better defense, midfield and attack IMO.

 

[Skills]

Swap Albiol for Lahm and Sneijder for Iniesta and Team Theon has achieved draft perfection.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Skizzo won't be here for a while, so I will cover for him.

but has much less creativity

Here is a post by Blackwidow on the assists data for the Bundesliga

I looked into the transfermarkt data for Germany...
They have even assists for the older days but I do not think that they are made in the same way it is today and that the data of that years are relieable.

The 20-top-players in assists of Alltime would be like this (the bold ones still playing in the Bundesliga)

Rank/Name/Country/Age/Games/Assists

1 Andreas Möller Deutschland 47 428 107
2 Gerd Müller Deutschland 69 427 106
3 Franck Ribéry Frankreich 31 193 99
4 Zé Roberto Brasilien 40 336 97
5 Mehmet Scholl Deutschland 44 392 91
6 Thomas Häßler Deutschland 48 400 85
7 Wolfgang Overath Deutschland 71 409 83
8 Mario Basler Deutschland 46 262 79
9 Dariusz Wosz Deutschland 45 324 77
10 Jürgen Grabowski Deutschland 70 441 76
11 Miroslav Klose Deutschland 36 307 76
12 Andreas Herzog Österreich 46 264 75
13 Stefan Effenberg Deutschland 46 370 74
14 Thomas Müller Deutschland 25 190 73
15 Sergej Barbarez Bosnien-Herzegowina 43 330 73
16 Günter Netzer Deutschland 70 230 71
17 Bastian Schweinsteiger Deutschland 30 336 70
18 Claudio Pizarro Peru 36 378 70
19 Franz Beckenbauer Deutschland 69 424 69
20 Bernd Schneider Deutschland 41 296 68

If I take the players older than 40 out of the list (I took the first 100 of the alltime list into my Excel) I get the following ranking - what should mainly include the data 2000 onwards - the bold ones still playing in Germany.

1 Franck Ribéry Frankreich 31 193 99
2 Zé Roberto Brasilien 40 336 97
3 Miroslav Klose Deutschland 36 307 76
4 Thomas Müller Deutschland 25 190 73
5 Claudio Pizarro Peru 36 378 70

6 Bastian Schweinsteiger Deutschland 30 336 70
7 Marcelinho Paraíba Brasilien 39 205 67
8 Lars Ricken Deutschland 38 302 59
9 Torsten Frings Deutschland 38 402 57
10 Zvjezdan Misimovic Bosnien-Herzegowina 32 157 57
11 Mehdi Mahdavikia Iran 37 255 56
12 Stefan Kießling Deutschland 31 337 56

13 Gonzalo Castro Deutschland 27 281 56

14 Marco Reus Deutschland 25 175 55
15 Hasan Salihamidzic Bosnien-Herzegowina 38 321 50
16 Paul Freier Deutschland 35 249 50
17 Diego Brasilien 30 161 50
18 Michael Ballack Deutschland 38 267 49
19 Juan Arango Venezuela 34 155 49

20 Jefferson Farfán Peru 30 162 49
21 Dedê Brasilien 36 322 48
22 David Jarolím Tschechien 35 318 48
23 Kevin Kuranyi Deutschland 33 261 48
24 Tranquillo Barnetta Schweiz 29 256 48
25 Philipp Lahm Deutschland 31 326 45

and another post on the impact of Thomas Müller

Müller had more match time than Robben and Ribery (but had to play with lesser players because of their injuries, too) - their by time ratio is better than his, but both were already in their prime years and Müller the talent. The data starts at the beginning of 2009/10

Müller 116 goal, 100 assists = 216
Robben 108 goals, 72 assists = 180
Ribery 71 goals, 109 assists = 180
all club competitions

I have a stats with the decisive goals/assists (lead or equalizer) somewhere, too. Müller was leading this with more than 10 goals/assists above Robben/Ribery prior to this season - and in this season he is with 13 ahead of Robben with 10 and Ribery with 7.

Basis is data from kicker - they are more generous when it means assists than whoscored is as a foul for a penalty is an assist, too.

Iniesta is a much better playmaker than Sneijder. Ronaldinho is a great playmaker but Ribéry is exceptional in this regard too as evidenced by those stats above. Müller is also better than Robben in this regard imo. Whilst Ibrahimovic is more creative than Lewandowski, Lewandowski compensates with graft, ability make constant decoy runs and better mobility. Schweinsteiger is a great passer of the ball but he does have a fairly limited Mascherano alongside him. Cambiasso and Lahm in combination is a more creative midfield duo imo. This in addition to Juanfran and Evra who are both significantly better than their full back counterparts. I agree that he has a more 'starry' attack and team but it isn't much more creative than ours.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Ronaldinho, Rivaldo and Ronaldo managed to play pretty well together after all and that's a more centrally orientated attack than this one.

I'l have to disagree with you on that one. Ronaldinho was the underdog in that trio and more often than not had to take the backseat and play a supporting role of sorts. It most certainly wasn't him at his prime. That is generally the case with most attacks. There will always be players playing supporting roles, making decoy runs and grafting. You can't just place 4 star players in attack and expect them all to play an equal match winning role, like they did for their respective club and national teams when they had the right set-up around them and the perfect supporting cast to bring out the best in them. I doubt that is the case here tbh.

Anyway the key flaws in your team imo. Long post incoming, so apologies on that but I won't be here much after Skizzo returns I promise you .

1) The issue of Sneijder

Sneijder was an immensely talented player but one who never came close to fulfilling his potential and has a very questionable peak. Apart from a good Euro 2008 and a fairly excellent 09/10 season he has never had a consistent or that great of a peak (his 09/10 treble campaign and 2010 WC performances whilst important for his match winning contributions have been grossly exaggerated). The likes of Lucio, Samuel, Cambiasso, Milito and Zanetti were more integral and on a more consistent basis as well. A couple of posts on his season which echo my view in general.


https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-...-cristiano-or-leo.397572/page-4#post-16594430 (a bit too harsh though!)

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/sneijder-to-galatasaray.342368/page-17#post-12859228

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/cristiano-ronaldo.348358/page-262#post-14481272

The Dutchman was a highly promising player at Ajax, but it was difficult to place him among the world's best in a relatively weak league. At Real Madrid, he tasted success with a league title but wasn't always a regular and rarely found himself at the center of the team. Only at Inter in the 2009-10 season was he a consistently world-class performer. To put it frankly, his dip in form since then has lasted longer than his spell of brilliance, so it's natural to assume that this is his "true" level of ability, rather than his 2009-10 form.


Sneijder's drop in performance shouldn't be underestimated. It seemed to start immediately after Mourinho's departure. One of the biggest fallacies in modern football is that Sneijder enjoyed a good 2010 World Cup, based almost solely on the fact that he scored five times. Analyze the goals, and they're a remarkable compilation of simple tap-ins and deflections, alongside one which was so clearly a Felipe Melo own goal that Sneijder must have been slightly embarrassed to have been credited with it. The Netherlands reached the final, but its No. 10 did very little playmaking for a playmaker.

So what can be construed as his peak? His very good 09-10 season which preceded an abysmal 10-11 campaign and was followed by a distinctively mediocre 08-09 season for Real where he struggled to be a mainstay in the first team?

There is also the issue of his compatibility in Theon's set up here. Sneijder was a fairly individualistic and rigid #10 who excelled best playing in between the lines is a 4-2-3-1 (or a 4-3-1-2 at times) with the team set up to get the best out of him with a classic spearheading striker in Milito and a wide forward in Eto'o and/or Pandev providing him with the ideal platform to shine. Here he has Ibrahimovic, in his creative free playmaking #9 role frequently dropping deep, Robben and Ronaldinho cutting inside regularly. All this in addition to the fact that the trident in front of him are well documented ball hoggers (which will be expanded on later). This could potentially lead to a clash of styles/ego between Ibrahimovic and Sneijder here who might find themselves in each others zone too often.

It is a debatable point as I've seen quite a few acknowledge him as a #8 but I personally do not buy that and can't see him functioning as the cog who will let his frontline flourish. If Theon had someone in the mould of Iniesta or Schuster capable of playing the supporting hybrid #8-10 role or a selfless #10 in the mould of Laudrup, then I could have seen his attack working. That is not the case right now though and I doubt if Sneijder will have the freedom here, to excel in between the lines.

He complained about his role after the World Cup: "I got frustrated under Benitez. … He wanted me to play as a striker," by which he meant high up the pitch behind another forward. But then, Sneijder doesn't want to play much deeper, either "I don't like playing in central midfield at all," he said elsewhere. "I like to be further forward closer to goal … better a second striker than a central midfielder." In fairness, Sneijder does say that his preferred position is behind two strikers, in a 4-3-1-2. That shape has been tried by Claudio Ranieri this season, but the problem with that system is that it places so much of the creative burden on one player, Sneijder

A few decent articles on Sneijder which in general echo my points

http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/story/_/id/7606073/wrong-wesley-sneijder-michael-cox

http://thinkfootball.co.uk/tactical-analysis-why-arent-top-clubs-keen-on-wesley-sneijder/

http://www.thefalsenine.co.uk/2013/01/24/wesley-sneijder-and-the-problem-of-10/


2) Too many cooks broth etc

Sneijder, Ronaldinho, Ibrahimovic and Robben all have a similarity, in that they were THE alpha dog of their respective club sides and countries at their peak, with the teams in general being built around them (exception of Robben) and they were provided with all the tactical freedom in the world and the right type of supporting personnel to bring out the best in them. Sneijder might not have been the best player of the 09/10 Inter season but he did have the ideal set-up and the supporting cast (as stated above) to cater to his specific needs. Simply put, the Barca of the mid noughties was built around Ronaldinho and he was their 'go to' man in general. Likewise for Ibrahimovic for Inter, PSG and Sweden. We all know what happened when he was asked to make a sacrifice positionally, to accommodate Messi in the middle .

Robben has improved his team ethic and toned down his individualistic instincts slightly under Guardiola but he generally has a perfect partner in crime (Ribery) who manages to balance the art of playmaking and individual play to perfection and also plays alongside several selfless forwards/attacking midfielders in Muller, Kroos, Mandzukic/Lewandowski etc. Can you imagine him playing the same way or expecting the same tactical freedom alongside Sneijder, Ronaldinho and Ibrahimovic?

Who in that forward line is going to play a supporting role or provide the graft, selfless link up play and decoy runs to balance out the individualism? I'm not doubting the playmaking talents or the link-up play of Ronaldinho or Ibrahimovic here though, they were great at it. However, you cannot just shoehorn a few great individuals into a team, without considering the tactical implications of said move, the individual roles that they will each carry out and the tactical freedom required to accommodate their glorious match-winning talents and just expect them all to function seamlessly.

 

[Physiocrat]

I don't doubt Muller's contribution but I have to say I'm surprised by how high Ribery is on that list. Muller may well get more assists but Robben certainly scores more goals- it would be interesting to see the combined goals and assists fro them both. However if you look at the central three Sneijder, Schweinsteiger and Mascherno is more variety than Iniesta, Cambiasso and Lahm. Also Lahm's assists figures will be primarily from him playing right-back so they'll be a little skewed.

 

[Theon]

I don't have time to go over all of that now Joga, though I think much if it is quite convoluted anyway.

Very briefly, Ronaldinho was excellent at the '02 World Cup and IIRC was in the team of the tournament. It certainly wasn't Ronaldinho at his peak but the reason for that is because he was 22 years old at the time and still playing in France. No one thinks it was him at his peak, it was three/four years down the line when he was winning the Ballon d'Or with Barcelona - what is indisputable though is that the trio of Ronaldinho/Rivaldo/Ronaldo worked very well. And if they had a peak Ronaldinho it would have worked even better.

We'll have to disagree on Sneijder as well - fair enough on quoting some Caf posts but for every one post you quote playing down Sneijder's ability, I could quote 100 posts on the Caf saying that we sign him. The Caf was obsessed with Sneijder when he was at his peak and he would have been a lovely signing for United. A few posters disagreeing doesn't mean much IMO when the majority rated him very highly.

And also, just on Sneijder, I've never suggested he's as good as Iniesta or anything like that because he isn't. He was a very good playmaker though and IMO would be in the top five to ten at his peak for the last decade. There's nothing wrong with him at this level at all and he's proven that at all levels - he took Holland to the finals of the World Cup and was one of the best players in Europe when Inter Milan won a historic treble.

 

[MTR]

Albiol still as a right back?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Raoul @Adzzz @jojojo @Wibble

Can anyone set up the poll in RadoN's absence please?

 

[Joga Bonito]

I don't doubt Muller's contribution but I have to say I'm surprised by how high Ribery is on that list. Muller may well get more assists but Robben certainly scores more goals- it would be interesting to see the combined goals and assists fro them both. However if you look at the central three Sneijder, Schweinsteiger and Mascherno is more variety than Iniesta, Cambiasso and Lahm. Also Lahm's assists figures will be primarily from him playing right-back so they'll be a little skewed.

Fair enough, but I don't rate Sneijder at all as should be obvious by my last post and I'm frankly surprised why Theon didn't go replace Sneijder with Ronaldinho and let Sanchez play on the left in his supporting role. Would have made more sense tactically imo. I'd rather have Müller's better link up play and assists and can see him complementing Theon's attack much more than Robben. Either that or Ribéry instead of Ronaldinho in that attack. You just can't have Ibrahimovic, Robben, Ronaldinho and Sneijder and idealise them to be the perfect attack. It most certainly the case 'on paper' but not in reality imo.

Anyway Cambiasso offers more variety than Mascherano and whilst Schweinsteiger is a better midfielder than Lahm, Lahm is a really intelligent passer who generally averages 90%+ in passing accuracy and is capable of providing the final ball when the occasion calls for it. That being said, it won't really be the requirement for him here, with creative geniuses such as Iniesta, Ribéry and Müller ahead of him. Another thing which is getting overlooked here is the impact of the both teams full backs offensively.

Theon has two full backs who aren't great going forward. With Ronaldinho and Robben instinctively looking to cut inside, you'd generally rely on your full backs to provide the width and balance out wide to prevent it from getting clogged up in the middle and becoming overly predictable. Cole whilst capable of decent link-up play, isn't great offensively (I actually remember him coming under a fair bit of scrutiny even with Czibor ahead of him on his flank in my last draft!) and Albiol is distinctively average in this regard. It makes it easier for the opposing team to shut the attack down by being tight and compact through the middle and harder for the inside forwards without adequate support from out wide. We definitely do have a cracking core in Godin-Miranda and Cambiasso-Lahm which is well supplemented by the likes of Iniesta, Muller and Lewandowski.

I don't have time to go over all of that now Joga, though I think much if it is quite convoluted anyway.

Very briefly, Ronaldinho was excellent at the '02 World Cup and IIRC was in the team of the tournament. It certainly wasn't Ronaldinho at his peak but the reason for that is because he was 22 years old at the time and still playing in France. No one thinks it was him at his peak, it was three/four years down the line when he was winning the Ballon d'Or with Barcelona - what is indisputable though is that the trio of Ronaldinho/Rivaldo/Ronaldo worked very well. And if they had a peak Ronaldinho it would have worked even better.

We'll have to disagree on Sneijder as well - fair enough on quoting some Caf posts but for every one post you quote playing down Sneijder's ability, I could quote 100 posts on the Caf saying that we sign him. The Caf was obsessed with Sneijder when he was at his peak and he would have been a lovely signing for United. A few posters disagreeing doesn't mean much IMO when the majority rated him very highly.

And also, just on Sneijder, I've never suggested he's as good as Iniesta or anything like that because he isn't. He was a very good playmaker though and IMO would be in the top five or so at his peak for the last decade. There's nothing wrong with him at this level at all and he's proven that at all levels - he took Holland to the finals of the World Cup and was one of the best players in Europe when Inter Milan won a historic treble.

A prime Ronaldinho wouldn't have made it better imo but rather much more individualistic and tactically flawed.

On Sneijder fair enough on the posts, but you could at least respond to the great article by Michael Cox? Btw what do you consider his peak to be? Just a single outstanding but overplayed 09/10 season and a Euro 2008 where he didn't have the greatest domestic campaign? I honestly think he stands out like a sore thumb both individually and tactically in your team. He most certainly wouldn't be the top 5 playmakers of the last decade based on a single season which wasn't all that as well.

 

[Raees]

I don't agree with the alpha dog point at all. Ronaldinho excelled alongside Rivaldo, Ronaldo .. Eto'o, Deco? Robben .. Ruud, Rvp, Sneijder and Ribery, Muller. Ibra is the only one who could struggle but even then. . He's with really complementary team mates here.

None of them want to be strikers. . It'll suit him well.

 

[Theon]

A prime Ronaldinho wouldn't have made it better imo but rather much more individualistic and tactically flawed.

Sorry Joga but I don't agree with that at all. I think you're just looking for things to criticise IMO because you're outclassed across the park.

This was Ronaldinho in 2002 - what would be different tactically by having a peak Ronaldinho there? He did all the same things just at a much higher level.

 

[Theon]

Anyway Cambiasso offers more variety than Mascherano and whilst Schweinsteiger is a better midfielder than Lahm, Lahm is a really intelligent passer who generally averages 90%+ in passing accuracy and is capable of providing the final ball when the occasion calls for it.

Mascherano is a better player than Cambiasso. The only thing Cambiasso is potentially better at is passing, but in truth I don't even think he has that. It's not like Cambiasso was raking 40 yard cross field balls and Mascherano has shown himself well suited to Barcelona's extremely possession orientated style of football. A style that Cambiasso never played for instance.

Off the ball Mascherano is just a superior Cambiasso, the latter is good defensively but Mascherano is on another level IMO.

And as you say, Schweinsteiger is a significantly better and more rounded midfielder than Lahm who really should be playing right back here. A prime Ronaldinho would roast Juanfran.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Ronaldinho excelled alongside Rivaldo, Ronaldo

He excelled alongside them playing a supporting role of sorts. If that is the incarnation of Ronaldinho on show here and not the peak Barca one, then I for one would be delighted. Eto'o was a fine spearhead type of forward who complemented Ronaldinho well and Deco was a terrific midfielder and a much more genuine #8 who is on a different plane to Sneijder both individually and tactically.

Robben .. Ruud, Rvp, Sneijder and Ribery, Muller.

Once again playing alongside a peak Ronaldinho, Sneijder and Ibrahimovic is a completely different proposition to playing alongside the likes of Ribéry who managed to blend wingplay, playmaking and individual play cutting inside, to perfection and brilliant teammates like Müller and Kroos. I'm not against great individualistic talents (love them myself) and don't mind one or two individualistic ball hogging talents but all 4 of them? Not for me.

Sorry Joga but I don't agree with that at all. I think you're just looking for things to criticise IMO because you're outclassed across the park

Nah . I'm fairly certain it's not just me with these views.

I actually don't think Ronaldinho should be Theon's next pick, although he'll probably go for it

Inclined to agree on Goofy though. He is the best in the draft and Theon has Ibra performing as the draft Golden Ball. Put the two together and you may lose your cake, let alone eat it.

BTW, when I say I don't like Sanchez left it's mostly that I prefer him right. The overall balance is right though with Ibra and Robben starring. The third man there needs to be a teamplayer that understands and accepts this, while also being able to pull his weight. Sanchez fits the bill to a T in that sense

Goofy-Ibra-Robben is worse than it may seem. They need a grafter there and Sanchez can play as one - and it would be a shame to downplay one of them as a support player to other too.

Imagine the final without Goofy though. It would be ridiculous yet, it makes no sense for Skizzo to replace his best player in Iniesta for anyone, while there are other issues in his team

So no, it most certainly isn't me just nitpicking and looking to criticise your team which is brimming with great individuals but lacking functionality and tactical realism esp on the attacking front. I still don't get how you think you can fill your attack with 4 individualistic talents and expect them all to play their match winning roles (which requires a great amount of tactical freedom and the right set up with the supporting cast catering to their needs) with none of them playing supporting roles.

Mascherano is a better player than Cambiasso. The only thing Cambiasso is potentially better at is passing, but in truth I don't even think he has that. It's not like Cambiasso was raking 40 yard cross field balls and Mascherano has shown himself well suited to Barcelona's extremely possession orientated style of football. A style that Cambiasso never played for instance.

Off the ball Mascherano is just a superior Cambiasso, the latter is good defensively but Mascherano is on another level IMO.

And as you say, Schweinsteiger is a significantly better and more rounded midfielder than Lahm who really should be playing right back here. A prime Ronaldinho would roast Juanfran.

I'd say Mascherano is slightly better from a purely defensive perspective and most certainly not on a different level. That being said Cambiasso was the more complete player and had other things going for him such as his technique, passing and link-up play.

Likewise Ribéry would roast Albiol here and I'd concede that Juanfran vs Ronaldinho is a mismatch but he does have Lahm covering for him and 3 of his Atleti buddies behind him whose chemistry has to count for something. Besides I don't think Ronaldinho has the ideal platform to shine here and I think my midfield would be better able to cover for Juanfran than yours would for Albiol.

Other than Sneijder failing to properly bridge the gap between midfield and offense on he ball, his off the ball work could tilt the midfield battle in our favour as well. Sneijder doesn't have the industry or the tactical nous to truly enhance your midfield when without possession. This is in direct contrast to Iniesta who can effectively function as a third midfielder of sorts off the ball with his tactical flexibility and work rate, resulting in a much more solid and cohesive midfield unit. This in turn gives the Cambiasso-Lahm duo much more freedom to work with (helping Juanfran for instance) knowing that Iniesta is right there ahead of them, instead of your midfield duo of Schweinsteiger-Mascherano who will have their hands full in midfield and won't be able to cover for Albiol (vs Ribéry) to the same extent for eg.

The lack of team ethic and industry in your forward line is exemplified by the phlegmatic Ibrahimovic and the apathetic Ronaldinho, when without possession. Whilst Robben has improved his work rate and team ethic under Guardiola, it is still nothing much to write home about in relative to say a Sanchez or a Di Maria for instance. This is once again in stark contrast with our forward line where Lewandowski and Müller can be expected to put in their fair share of work in off the ball, with Ribéry (capable of pressing though) being the only exception. It just further enhances my point about which midfield-forward line will function more fluidly and cohesively off the ball whilst also being harder to break down as an unit althogether.

 

[Damien]

@Rado_N @Damien

Usual poll please.

At players career peaks , who will win the match?
- Team Theon
- Team Skizzo

Poll for 24hrs. Public Poll. View results without voting. Can change votes.

Done.

 

[Rado_N]

@Rado_N @Damien

Usual poll please.

At players career peaks , who will win the match?
- Team Theon
- Team Skizzo

Poll for 24hrs. Public Poll. View results without voting. Can change votes.

@Raoul @Adzzz @jojojo @Wibble

Can anyone set up the poll in RadoN's absence please?

Sorry mate, heading home in a min will do it when I get in - you want the usual 'withdraw vote' option too?

Edit: never mind!

 

[Theon]

He excelled alongside them playing a supporting role of sorts. If that is the incarnation of Ronaldinho on show here and not the peak Barca one, then I for one would be delighted.

Sorry Joga but Raees is spot on with what he said - As I have just shown you a few posts above, Ronaldinho did all the exact same things at the '02 World Cup just at a lower level. Really, you're kidding yourself with this if you think he played some sort of reserved supporting role. He was just as flamboyant and offensive as he was in his prime - Not as good as the others due to his age, but well deserving of his place in the Team of the Tournament.

And most importantly it isnt the 22 year old Ronaldinho playing here - but the full fledged Ballon d'Or winning Barcelona version. He's quite comfortably the best attacker on the pitch and more than capable of giving Juanfran a torrid time.

I'd say Mascherano is slightly better from a purely defensive perspective and most certainly not on a different level. That being said Cambiasso was the more complete player and had other things going for him such as his technique, passing and link-up play.

Mascherano is comfortably better than Cambiasso defensively, that's not to say Cambiasso was poor because he was very good, but he lacks Mascherano's mobility which is what makes the latter such a good ballwinner. I don't have any doubts that Mascherano is better defensively than Cambiasso and he's shown that by thriving at centre back at the very highest level. It's not that close.

As I said about the only thing that you could say Cambiasso is better at is passing, but in reality I don't think there is anything in it. Mascherano has proven himself to be proficient on the ball and suited to a style of football in which ball retention is the overriding objective. Both are capable of keeping it tight and making short, accurate passes. Mascherano offers significantly more elsewhere though and IMO will have the better game here.

It's also important to note that Mascherano frees up Schweinsteiger (comfortably the best centre mid on the pitch) to play box to box.

 

[Theon]

Other than Sneijder failing to properly bridge the gap between midfield and offense on he ball, his off the ball work could tilt the midfield battle in our favour as well. Sneijder doesn't have the industry or the tactical nous to truly enhance your midfield when without possession. This is in direct contrast to Iniesta who can effectively function as a third midfielder of sorts off the ball with his tactical flexibility and work rate, resulting in a much more solid and cohesive midfield unit.

Seriously man, you need to catch yourself on with this stuff. It's just a game.

Sneijder always had a very good work rate for an offensive midfielder - the criticism you've put there is just not true. One of the reasons that so many of us thought that Sneijder could play in United's two man midfield is because he had a good work rate.

Here are the distance covered statistics from the 2014 World Cup - He seems really lazy indeed

1. Wesley Sneijder (558 min) 69,6 KM
2. Arjen Robben (600 min) 69,1 KM
3. Thomas Müller (562 min) 68,8 KM
4. Toni Kroos (570 min) 68,3 KM
5. Daley Blind (600 min) 67,4 KM
6. Philipp Lahm (570 min) 67,3 KM
7. Javier Mascherano (600 min) 67,2 KM
8. Benedikt Howedes (570 min) 66,3 KM
9. Pablo Zabaleta (600 minuten) 65,6 KM
10. Ron Vlaar (600 minuten) 64 KM

 

[Gio]

Who has Lahm replaced in midfield?

 

[Isotope]

Who has Lahm replaced in midfield?

Kroos. With Muller there, can't get more Germans.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Looks like blowout win for Theon. Match will definitely be closer than the vote spread.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Seriously man, you need to catch yourself on with this stuff. It's just a game.

Sneijder always had a very good work rate for an offensive midfielder - the criticism you've put there is just not true. One of the reasons that so many of us thought that Sneijder could play in United's two man midfield is because he had a good work rate.

Here are the distance covered statistics from the 2014 World Cup - He seems really lazy indeed

1. Wesley Sneijder (558 min) 69,6 KM
2. Arjen Robben (600 min) 69,1 KM
3. Thomas Müller (562 min) 68,8 KM
4. Toni Kroos (570 min) 68,3 KM
5. Daley Blind (600 min) 67,4 KM
6. Philipp Lahm (570 min) 67,3 KM
7. Javier Mascherano (600 min) 67,2 KM
8. Benedikt Howedes (570 min) 66,3 KM
9. Pablo Zabaleta (600 minuten) 65,6 KM
10. Ron Vlaar (600 minuten) 64 KM

Knew that stat would pop up sometime, hardly found Sneijder industrious tbh. Anyway I'll stop with the Sneijder bashing, just don't rate him at all apart from a very good 09/10 which was overhyped beyond belief. Anyway any particular reason why you replaced Sanchez instead of Sneijder to accommodate Ronaldinho?

Mascherano offers significantly more elsewhere though and IMO will have the better game here.

Nah Mascherano would have a much harder time dealing with the elusive Iniesta as opposed to Cambiasso who will be primarily up against Sneijder... I'd back Iniesta to help out my midfield much more than Sneijder would yours, not just in work rate but the tactical nous required to function as an auxilary central midfielder of sorts. and in no way is Mascherano comfortable better than Cambiasso defensively. He is slightly better from a purely defensive perspective ofc but the margins are minimal imo.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Looks like blowout win for Theon. Match will definitely be closer than the vote spread.

Well, we believed letting have Ronaldinho and potentially screwing up his attack's chemistry would have been a good tactical move as opposed to him getting Lahm and completing an almost impregnable defense.

I just can't see his attack functioning to its full potential and with Sneijder of all people as the linking cog. Looks like that isn't the case though .

 

[NM]

I reckon Cambiasso is underrated in this draft. Terrific player - shame he was great when nobody was really watching Serie A.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I reckon Cambiasso is underrated in this draft. Terrific player - shame he was great when nobody was really watching Serie A.

I rate both Cambiasso and Mascherano almost equally. Mascherano is a shade better defensively, but Cambiasso is a better ball player. Not much between them though.

 

[Gio]

Don't think Sneijder's 09/10 season with Inter was over-hyped. He was pivotal in most of the big games and was clearly the brains, vision and class behind their creative play. It's a fairer criticism of his World Cup though, on the same basis that folk assumed Messi had a great World Cup in 2014 or Zidane in 1998 due to their goal return rather than their actual performances. That said, he still played well and created the golden chance that should've put Spain behind in the final.

 

[Blackwidow]

Robben needs a dynamic center of the pitch to really be able to shine. He does not get that in this setup. Without it he might run riot on the flanks - without being efficient. A central midfield with Sneijder, Schweinsteiger and Mascherano - all far away from being dynamic - a striker like Ibra who has not invented workrate - are poison for Robben's play especially as he cannot even put crosses in from the right.
I watch his play (even a lot matches of the Elftal) since 6 years - both in the Elftal and at Bayern. I e.g. have seen Robben seldom or never shine with a Kroos/Schweinsteiger/Gustavo or Martinez midfield.

I would put Lahm as a right 8 in a 4-1-2-3 system. Like this you can shift him better onto the wing when Müller pushes into a (hanging) striker position - good for moves from the left as well as from the right.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Don't think Sneijder's 09/10 season with Inter was over-hyped. He was pivotal in most of the big games and was clearly the brains, vision and class behind their creative play. It's a fairer criticism of his World Cup though, on the same basis that folk assumed Messi had a great World Cup in 2014 or Zidane in 1998 due to their goal return rather than their actual performances. That said, he still played well and created the golden chance that should've put Spain behind in the final.

Fair enough, it was a controversial point no doubt, which I was sure quite a few would disagree with and I did acknowledge his match winning contributions. However, when considering a player's peak period Sneijder is extremely underwhelming in this sense. So much so that one could even call him a one season wonder which is more or less what Michael Cox does in the article I posted above.

Spoiler

A pattern throughout Mourinho's managerial career has been his ability to turn otherwise decent players into top-class performers. There are examples at each club -- at Porto, for example, Paulo Ferreira and Nuno Valente did passable impressions of Cafu and Roberto Carlos when flying down the flanks from full back, and while Ferreira's good form continued under Mourinho at Chelsea, his ability dipped after his compatriot's departure and he's been a backup ever since. Valente became a bit-part player for Everton, before retiring with little fanfare.


At Chelsea, Mourinho had money to spend, and was immediately working with a higher caliber of player. But he transformed Frank Lampard, for example, from a decent all-round midfielder into a player voted the second-best in the world in 2005. Eidur Gudjohnsen was a good forward, but Mourinho somehow got him playing excellently in a central midfield position. Joe Cole played the only good football of his career under Mourinho.



And then there is Inter, where the post-Mourinho dip has been suffered by almost the entire playing squad. But one man sums it up in particular: Wesley Sneijder. His speech at the 2010 Ballon d'Or ceremony showed that strong emotional bond. "It was a pleasure to work with Jose Mourinho, and I want to tell him this on stage, it was a pleasure to work with him," he said. "I feel that he is for me, the best coach in the world." It nearly reduced his former coach to tears
"With Jose, success always follows him, but it's not always because he has the best players; it's because he make you believe you are the best players," Sneijder later said. "The confidence and belief he gives you is amazing, and when he is at a club it is his players and staff against the rest of the world."



And though it seems ludicrous to place Sneijder in with some lesser talents who enjoyed a brief Mourinho-dependent spike in form, he hasn't disproved the theory. The Dutchman was a highly promising player at Ajax, but it was difficult to place him among the world's best in a relatively weak league. At Real Madrid, he tasted success with a league title but wasn't always a regular and rarely found himself at the center of the team. Only at Inter in the 2009-10 season was he a consistently world-class performer. To put it frankly, his dip in form since then has lasted longer than his spell of brilliance, so it's natural to assume that this is his "true" level of ability, rather than his 2009-10 form.



Sneijder's drop in performance shouldn't be underestimated. It seemed to start immediately after Mourinho's departure. One of the biggest fallacies in modern football is that Sneijder enjoyed a good 2010 World Cup, based almost solely on the fact that he scored five times. Analyze the goals, and they're a remarkable compilation of simple tap-ins and deflections, alongside one which was so clearly a Felipe Melo own goal that Sneijder must have been slightly embarrassed to have been credited with it. The Netherlands reached the final, but its No. 10 did very little playmaking for a playmaker.



Scoring slightly fortunate goals shouldn't be used to criticize Sneijder, but getting acclaim for his performances at the World Cup might have been the worst thing that could have happened to him. For one thing, he was told by so many people that he deserved to be in the top three for the Ballon d'Or, despite missing out, he probably started to believe the hype. In truth, he'd played well for roughly half of the year before struggling under Rafael Benitez. The Barcelona trio of Lionel Messi, Xavi Hernandez and Andres Iniesta had been more consistent.



But more importantly, Sneijder seems to have forgotten the type of player he is. In 2009-10, he was absolutely superb by pulling the strings between the lines, and creating chances for Diego Milito, Samuel Eto'o and Goran Pandev. When used further forward in European competition, he prompted the counterattacks, combining with Milito but leaving the goal scoring to the Argentine. Sneijder scored just four times in the league, and eight in all competitions. He was a playmaker, not a goal scorer.



After finishing joint top of the World Cup goal-scoring charts, Sneijder now seems to think he's a goal scorer. His shots-per-game rate has risen from 2.42 in 2009-10, to 3.38 in 2010-11, to 3.80 in 2011-12. Astonishingly, he's only managed five league goals since Mourinho left.



He complained about his role after the World Cup: "I got frustrated under Benitez. … He wanted me to play as a striker," by which he meant high up the pitch behind another forward. But then, Sneijder doesn't want to play much deeper, either. "I don't like playing in central midfield at all," he said elsewhere. "I like to be further forward closer to goal … better a second striker than a central midfielder." It all seems very confused, and the likelihood is that Sneijder is trying to shift the blame onto his managers when he's simply been playing poorly.



In fairness, Sneijder does say that his preferred position is behind two strikers, in a 4-3-1-2. That shape has been tried by Claudio Ranieri this season, but the problem with that system is that it places so much of the creative burden on one player, Sneijder. When he's off form, that's difficult to justify, which has resulted in Ranieri playing a 4-3-1-2/4-4-2 compromise, in which Sneijder drifts to the left wing when out of possession, with Javier Zanetti playing either as a right winger or a central midfielder on the opposite side. In truth, Argentine Ricky Alvarez seems more suited to the Sneijder role.



"Sneijder is not a problem but a solution," Ranieri protested on Italian TV this week. But he continued: "I think that an Inter coach is duty-bound to try and integrate players with a special quality, even though by doing that the team is now suffering a lot."



It's easy to read between the lines.



It's not so easy to play between the lines. There's a brilliant player somewhere in Wesley Sneijder, but his current form barely justifies a place in the Inter side, let alone at the heart of it.

 

[Blackwidow]

Seriously man, you need to catch yourself on with this stuff. It's just a game.

Sneijder always had a very good work rate for an offensive midfielder - the criticism you've put there is just not true. One of the reasons that so many of us thought that Sneijder could play in United's two man midfield is because he had a good work rate.

Here are the distance covered statistics from the 2014 World Cup - He seems really lazy indeed

1. Wesley Sneijder (558 min) 69,6 KM
2. Arjen Robben (600 min) 69,1 KM
3. Thomas Müller (562 min) 68,8 KM
4. Toni Kroos (570 min) 68,3 KM
5. Daley Blind (600 min) 67,4 KM
6. Philipp Lahm (570 min) 67,3 KM
7. Javier Mascherano (600 min) 67,2 KM
8. Benedikt Howedes (570 min) 66,3 KM
9. Pablo Zabaleta (600 minuten) 65,6 KM
10. Ron Vlaar (600 minuten) 64 KM

Müller's distance was 83957 m in 682 minutes
Snejder's 69,6 km in 585!!!! min

I have seen that wrong data before and corrected it. It was the kilometres after the semi final.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

do you guys have subs? didnt follow the drafting so dont now if you just added players or did you replace them....

 

[harms]

@Theon is simply better (or, at least, equal) everywhere bar RB (and Juanfran is not exactly a match-winner, especially against Ronaldinho) and n.10 (and Sneijder was very good at his peak). I don't like his attacking trio, I think that it don't get the best out of them all, but the gap in individual quality is just too big. Sorry, @Skizzo, you had a monstrous team from the beginning, but I feel that you didn't improve it this much in the later rounds and I just can't see how can you win this. On the other hand, Theon gambled with his god awful CB's and won (when he shouldn't have been, imo) - and from that crucial point he became almost invincible.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

theon has better players but i like the look of skizzo team more....
The biggest problem in theons team is Ibrahimovic, he needs a team built around him, needs to be the main guy and with Dinho in the team he wont be + he is the wrong type of striker you want in the team where Dinho is pulling the strings.
Albiol is the obvious weaknees and i never rated Mascherano that highly. The other players are simply brilliant, that defence + Schweini

As for skizzo team, love the look of the team, great balance and lot of connections(club-national teammates) on the field. Defence looks great with Atletico back 4 upgraded with Evra on the left, the only problem i have is that they basically have one great season.
Lahm - Cambiasso looks good but Lahm is much better player in fullback position, dont know if skizzo has any midfielder in the subs because Lahm on Ronaldinho would be fantastic move.
Not sure how would Iniesta look in this team but the front three is brilliant! Dont rate Lewa as many do but he compliments the other two. Absolutely love Ribery and Muller, fantastic players.

 

[Joga Bonito]

do you guys have subs? didnt follow the drafting so dont now if you just added players or did you replace them....

Aye, Skizzo's sub is Seydou Keita and Theon's is Khedira. We added 2 players per reinforcement round but had to drop 2 other players.

Here is the main thread.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-modern-current-players-draft.401628/

 

[Joga Bonito]

theon has better players but i like the look of skizzo team more....
The biggest problem in theons team is Ibrahimovic, he needs a team built around him, needs to be the main guy and with Dinho in the team he wont be + he is the wrong type of striker you want in the team where Dinho is pulling the strings.
Albiol is the obvious weaknees and i never rated Mascherano that highly. The other players are simply brilliant, that defence + Schweini

As for skizzo team, love the look of the team, great balance and lot of connections(club-national teammates) on the field. Defence looks great with Atletico back 4 upgraded with Evra on the left, the only problem i have is that they basically have one great season.
Lahm - Cambiasso looks good but Lahm is much better player in fullback position, dont know if skizzo has any midfielder in the subs because Lahm on Ronaldinho would be fantastic move.
Not sure how would Iniesta look in this team but the front three is brilliant! Dont rate Lewa as many do but he compliments the other two. Absolutely love Ribery and Muller, fantastic players.

Tbf, their defense has been generally good since Simeone took over in Dec 2011. They won the Europa League, UEFA Super Cup against Chelsea, in 12/13 they won the Copa Del Rey against Real in the Santiago Bernabeu of all places (they have a torrid record against Real, this match ended a 14 year and 25 match winless streak in the Madrid derby), finishing 3rd in the league in 12/13 and then the great season in 13/14.

Here are two posts on Godin, the star of our defense extolling his big match virtues and his ridiculous consistency, if you'd like to read up more on him.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-modern-current-players-draft.401628/page-18#post-17154097

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-modern-current-players-draft.401628/page-57#post-17237489