The Modern Draft QF1: Skizzo vs crappycraperson | Votes have been reset - vote again

[crappycraperson]

I have never said that you won't score. I have said that there is only one keeper who can come up with a performance to keep everything out. Top tier keepers pull out such performances all the time. There is absolutely nothing wrong in that statement.

- Regarding Coentrao. The classic case of either full back will defend or attack. I have said that my right back will play a more defensive role while Coentrao will play like a normal full back not ultra attacking or just defensive. That would mean at times that he may be upfield and others have to cover for him, that is how full backs in football work. My simple point about him is that he is not a liability in any sense, he has proven himself in Madrid and Portugese team. Now that he is up against Sterling, he will probably have the upper hand in that battle.

- Godin-Miranda is simply not better than Vidic-Varane. Both of my defenders are better than their counterparts. Neither need to play in a defensive team to perform at their peak.

- Only reason why you believe that your midfield is better set up defensively is because of Cambiasso. If we look it on the whole - Gerrard, Moutinho and Carrick is a better defensive unit than Cambiasso with Kroos and Silva.

 

[Skizzo]

That is a solid change and IMO Silva is now far more enabled, with movement much closer to him. Still missing a central runner from midfield but I'm now having to reconsider my vote.

Thanks. We looked at the point you made, and we don't lose anything by switching Muller and Sterling as far as goal threat and graft...and they match up much better against the opposite full backs. And, as you point out, Silva can have much more of an impact on the game now, which will lead to chances being created.

 

[Skizzo]

I have never said that you won't score. I have said that there is only one keeper who can come up with a performance to keep everything out. Top tier keepers pull out such performances all the time. There is absolutely nothing wrong in that statement.

- Regarding Coentrao. The classic case of either full back will defend or attack. I have said that my right back will play a more defensive role while Coentrao will play like a normal full back not ultra attacking or just defensive. That would mean at times that he may be upfield and others have to cover for him, that is how full backs in football work. My simple point about him is that he is not a liability in any sense, he has proven himself in Madrid and Portugese team. Now that he is up against Sterling, he will probably have the upper hand in that battle.

- Godin-Miranda is simply not better than Vidic-Varane. Both of my defenders are better than their counterparts. Neither need to play in a defensive team to perform at their peak.

- Only reason why you believe that your midfield is better set up defensively is because of Cambiasso. If we look it on the whole - Gerrard, Moutinho and Carrick is a better defensive unit than Cambiasso with Kroos and Silva.

Well if you want to argue about your keeper possibly keeping a clean sheet, sure. Let's argue all the points like that shall we? Lewandowski might score 4. Muller might score 2. Godin might score from a corner. He's only as good as the defence in front of him, and the attackers he's against.

Why do you feel he has a better chance against Sterling? I'm sure this will be good

Godin-Miranda is better than Vidic-Varane. Not much else to argue there, so I'll leave that one.

Why do you suddenly start talking about units, when everything before this was comparing individuals? Cambiasso is the best defensive midfielder on the pitch, so yes, along with Kroos' intelligence and positioning, we have a better defensive set up, including our defence, compared to yours.

 

[Balu]

@Balu - Can you point out how often Muller plays on the left for Bayern? I understand there is a narrative surrounding him that he can play across the offensive line, just want to see the merits of the same.

Not too often. Maybe 2-3 times each season. Van Gaal played him on the left for a longer period while Robben was fit and Ribery injured in 09/10 if I remember correctly. I prefer him on the right or in the middle and don't think Skizzo should have made the swap. That being said, if you don't want him to provide width and let him do his free roaming runs towards the middle, then he's still an excellent choice on the left. On the right, he adds more traditional wingplay to his game, which is kinda obvious for a right footed player. It adds another dimension (to the countless other ones) to his play that you don't really get on the left.

 

[Skizzo]

Not too often. Maybe 2-3 times each season. Van Gaal played him on the left for a longer period while Robben was fit and Ribery injured in 09/10 if I remember correctly. I prefer him on the right or in the middle and don't think Skizzo should have made the swap. That being said, if you don't want him to provide width and let him do his free roaming runs towards the middle, then he's still an excellent choice on the left. On the right, he adds more traditional wingplay to his game, which is kinda obvious for a right footed player. It adds another dimension (to the countless other ones) to his play that you don't really get on the left.

The reasoning behind it was that he's an intelligent player (like most of the current Bayern squad) and can play multiple positions. I remember him being frustrated because he played all across the front 4, and felt he wasn't nailing down a position for his own. Here, he's up against a full back who can be error prone and rash in the tackles. Muller's ability to find space against a full back who's already sometimes found out of position, will give him a lot of joy in behind.

 

[crappycraperson]

Well if you want to argue about your keeper possibly keeping a clean sheet, sure. Let's argue all the points like that shall we? Lewandowski might score 4. Muller might score 2. Godin might score from a corner. He's only as good as the defence in front of him, and the attackers he's against.

Why do you feel he has a better chance against Sterling? I'm sure this will be good

Godin-Miranda is better than Vidic-Varane. Not much else to argue there, so I'll leave that one.

Why do you suddenly start talking about units, when everything before this was comparing individuals? Cambiasso is the best defensive midfielder on the pitch, so yes, along with Kroos' intelligence and positioning, we have a better defensive set up, including our defence, compared to yours.

- I think you are deliberately being obtuse regarding Cech since you do not want the gap between the keepers being highlighted. I have never claimed I will keep the clean sheet. It is like me claiming that Gerrard is most likely to score a screamer in this game, a perfectly valid statement again.

- Coentrao came up against Robben last year and did as well any one. Why would he struggle against Sterling? He has been the most over estimated player in this match up. He is not even reliable when it comes to creating or finishing chances when in good positions.

- Where have I discounted units? I have frequently pointed out that you do not have the same organized unit as Athletico and hence you can't claim to have similar defensive solidarity. There is no question in my mind that Kroos is not in his favoured role here. It could easily be a rehash of failed Kroos-Shwein MF pairing.

 

[crappycraperson]

The reasoning behind it was that he's an intelligent player (like most of the current Bayern squad) and can play multiple positions. I remember him being frustrated because he played all across the front 4, and felt he wasn't nailing down a position for his own. Here, he's up against a full back who can be error prone and rash in the tackles. Muller's ability to find space against a full back who's already sometimes found out of position, will give him a lot of joy in behind.

There is zero merit to claiming that he will performing at his best against a full back on the left. As Balu pointed out above, that at best he will be playing as a inner left forward here. You can't expect him to working the left wing like a winger. I know you are desperate to have him line up against Carcares but don't see it happening here.

 

[Skizzo]

- I think you are deliberately being obtuse regarding Cech since you do not want the gap between the keepers being highlighted. I have never claimed I will keep the clean sheet. It is like me claiming that Gerrard is most likely to score a screamer in this game, a perfectly valid statement again.

There is only one keeper on the park that can potentially keep everything out

..increases my chances of conceding less goals or no goals.

In the opening post you say he's potentially keeping a clean sheet. Then mention it again later on.

You can put "potentially" in front of anything in the draft. Handanovic has kept clean sheets before too...he could potentially keep one here as well

 

[Skizzo]

There is zero merit to claiming that he will performing at his best against a full back on the left. As Balu pointed out above, that at best he will be playing as a inner left forward here. You can't expect him to working the left wing like a winger. I know you are desperate to have him line up against Carcares but don't see it happening here.

Where did I ask him to be a winger? I said he'd take advantage of Caceres poor positioning, which he would.

 

[Balu]

The reasoning behind it was that he's an intelligent player (like most of the current Bayern squad) and can play multiple positions. I remember him being frustrated because he played all across the front 4, and felt he wasn't nailing down a position for his own. Here, he's up against a full back who can be error prone and rash in the tackles. Muller's ability to find space against a full back who's already sometimes found out of position, will give him a lot of joy in behind.

Yeah, I get that. But then, Müller will escape anyone with his runs at one point anyway. And I'd rather have him find his space in a position where he's comfortable when receiving the ball, than wide left where he's less effective than anywhere else in the final third.

Don't get me wrong, it's not really bad or means that Müller becomes useless or anything like that. If he finds open space, he will do something great. I just think that the move doesn't get the best out of him, just because he's up against a weaker fullback on paper. The beauty of playing Müller is that I don't give a feck about who he's up against. He's smarter and finds his moments anyway. If that move really helps Silva or Sterling to excel, then I'd understand it. If it's about Müller getting the better of Caceres, then I don't really like it.

At this point, you're probably frustrated that everyone has a different opinion how to line-up your versatile attackers, right?

 

[crappycraperson]

In the opening post you say he's potentially keeping a clean sheet. Then mention it again later on.

You can put "potentially" in front of anything in the draft. Handanovic has kept clean sheets before too...he could potentially keep one here as well

Jesus.. let me break it down for you.

If either defense is breached .. would you back Cech or Handovic to pull off a save?
Does Cech not provide a better cover to my defense?

Keepers are a big part of a great defenses over the year. Just because they are always ignored in draft game, does not mean that has to continue.

 

[Skizzo]

Yeah, I get that. But then, Müller will escape anyone with his runs at one point anyway. And I'd rather have him find his space in a position where he's comfortable when receiving the ball, than wide left where he's less effective than anywhere else in the final third.

Don't get me wrong, it's not really bad or means that Müller becomes useless or anything like that. If he finds open space, he will do something great. I just think that the move doesn't get the best out of him, just because he's up against a weaker fullback on paper. The beauty of playing Müller is that I don't give a feck about who he's up against. He's smarter and finds his moments anyway. If that move really helps Silva or Sterling to excel, then I'd understand it. If it's about Müller getting the better of Caceres, then I don't really like it.

At this point, you're probably frustrated that everyone has a different opinion how to line-up your versatile attackers, right?

it's the pro's and con's of versatile attackers.

I agree with you that he's much preferred on the right, and even centrally, than on the left. Him being up against Caceres negates somewhat of his "less effectiveness" since Caceres would be very uncomfortable trying to deal with him. It then puts Vidic on the backfoot on the opposite side because Sterling has the pace to cause him a real problem.

 

[crappycraperson]

Where did I ask him to be a winger? I said he'd take advantage of Caceres poor positioning, which he would.

His job is much easier now. He will just tuck in with the 2 CBs to reduce the space Muller can target and allow Muller to go wide if he wants to.

 

[Skizzo]

Jesus.. let me break it down for you.

If either defense is breached .. would you back Cech or Handovic to pull off a save?
Does Cech not provide a better cover to my defense?

Keepers are a big part of a great defenses over the year. Just because they are always ignored in draft game, does not mean that has to continue.

Jesus...let me break it down for you.

My defence is better than yours to start with, therefore less likely to get broken down. So says I think about 90% of the people that have commented in here.

 

[Skizzo]

His job is much easier now. He will just tuck in with the 2 CBs to reduce the space Muller can target and allow Muller to go wide if he wants to.

Of course. Why has no one thought of that. That's how you stop him.

 

[Balu]

His job is much easier now. He will just tuck in with the 2 CBs to reduce the space Muller can target and allow Muller to go wide if he wants to.

They might confuse the shit out of your defense in the end though. Lewandowski actually prefers to drift left and Müller could end up going all the way to the right, while Sterling runs on a wonderful through-ball by Silva through the middle ...

... and misses.​

 

[Skizzo]

They might confuse the shit out of your defense in the end though. Lewandowski actually prefers to drift left and Müller could end up going all the way to the right, while Sterling runs on a wonderful through-ball by Silva through the middle ...

... and misses.​

white text the last part

 

[crappycraperson]

They might confuse the shit out of your defense in the end though. Lewandowski actually prefers to drift left and Müller could end up going all the way to the right, while Sterling runs on a wonderful through-ball by Silva through the middle ...

... and misses.​

Where have they mentioned that Muller has a free role and would be popping up on either wing? If Muller wa splaying through the middle I could see him trying to channel both wings but not when is stationed on the left to target the full ack

 

[crappycraperson]

Thanks @Balu

Skizzo leads 19-16

 

[Skizzo]

Gonna watch the Walking Dead. Check back in a bit.

 

[Balu]

Maybe I'll write more later, but I really like crappy's team. His attack is fantastic, Ribery is probably underrated as usual. Gerrard could have a great influence in this game and cause some problems.

I think you're overrating Varane though @crappycraperson . He needs to be replaced for the next game in my opinion and he really lives off the reputation of a good 3 months run and one fantastic game against Messi in the worst form of his career. He hasn't done anything to justify the hype since in my opinion, as talented as he is. He has been good for France though, which is why I gave him the benefit of the doubt here.

 

[Mani]

Skizzo's team movement in front of the box is brilliant,those front 4 can unlock any defense.
Getting into MF I would prefer crappy's,Vidic is my favorite player,but i doubt he'd right support from varane.Overall i like team skizzo.

 

[Skills]

Skizzo's over aggression spreads into his team, by half time they have a player sent off and another 3 on yellows. Easy win for crappy here.

 

[crappycraperson]

Plenty of managers left to vote - @Snow @Theon @MJJ @Physiocrat

 

[Skizzo]

Skizzo's over aggression spreads into his team, by half time they have a player sent off and another 3 on yellows. Easy win for crappy here.

What over aggression?

 

[Joga Bonito]

As per the rules.



Not to mention the norm is that only one out of manager or assistant (which should not exist in this draft in the first place) posts in match day thread. In any case I will be replying to posts by either one of @Skizzo or @Joga Bonito today. They can decide and nominate one as they please.

I always assumed the norm was that the manager posts mostly but the assistant manager could pop in with a few posts now and then, so long as they both don't post together. That was what EAP alluded to last time when we he asked us to coordinate our posts. I've also tried to post as little as possible and condensed my posts into extremely long ones so as to avoid any ganging up and dissuade scan voters from reading them but rather just the ones whose concerns/opinions that I was addressing.

Anyway if you are unhappy with it I'll stop posting in this thread anymore.

Godin-Miranda is simply not better than Vidic-Varane. Both of my defenders are better than their counterparts.

For my last contribution I'd just say this, I really don't see how you can rate Varane higher than Miranda. Varane has plenty of potential and will probably become a top class CB one day but I'm curious to see if there's anyone else who'd back that claim of yours.

Anyway I'm out, good luck for the rest of the match.

Skizzo's over aggression spreads into his team, by half time they have a player sent off and another 3 on yellows. Easy win for crappy here.

Skizzo's on the sidelines

 

[Balu]

What I wanted to add and why I believe that Crappy has a slight edge in this game. I can see Ribery and Gerrard really excelling with each other. It's something about Ribery, that I fought a lot for after our treble winning season when all of a sudden everyone claimed that Robben is the best player in the team.

As long as we played that 3man midfield with Kroos, Ribery was a fantastic final third player, did his most damange one on one with fullbacks and in and around the box. Once Robben came into the team and Müller played central, we lost that connection between midfield and attack that Kroos provided, so Ribery played a bit deeper and more central, giving it back to us. I can see both versions working here in this game and making crappy's attack incredibly unpredictable. Gerrard staying deeper, keeping Cambiasso from helping out on the wing and therefore giving Ribery the chance to go 1on1 against Juanfran is just as dangerous as Ribery cutting inside, getting away from Juanfran and dragging Cambiasso towards him, wich opens up space for Gerrard to exploit. Mixing both is a nightmare to defend against.

It's a wonderful combination and while Skizzo has all that versatility in his attack it's still somehow difficult to say how he gets the best out of his players. In crappy's team it's clear that his two best attacking players will have a fantastic game.

Sorry if my posts here were mostly in favour of crappy's team, but rarely used someone Ribery to his full potential in a draft game and more often than not he was just shoehorned into the team, often even on the right. It's great to see that he's a key player here.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

You tell me, I was picking him before he won the World Cup. In fact, Balu has me as some form of reverse-jynx single-handedly responsible for Müller and Schweini's form, probably Götze's goal to boot.

No beer though.

I had money on him finishing with the WC golden boot and he disappointed me late on

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

@Joga Bonito I agree with crappy, you shouldn't be participating in the arguments.

 

[Gio]

I have never said that you won't score. I have said that there is only one keeper who can come up with a performance to keep everything out. Top tier keepers pull out such performances all the time. There is absolutely nothing wrong in that statement.

- Regarding Coentrao. The classic case of either full back will defend or attack. I have said that my right back will play a more defensive role while Coentrao will play like a normal full back not ultra attacking or just defensive. That would mean at times that he may be upfield and others have to cover for him, that is how full backs in football work. My simple point about him is that he is not a liability in any sense, he has proven himself in Madrid and Portugese team. Now that he is up against Sterling, he will probably have the upper hand in that battle.

- Godin-Miranda is simply not better than Vidic-Varane. Both of my defenders are better than their counterparts. Neither need to play in a defensive team to perform at their peak.

- Only reason why you believe that your midfield is better set up defensively is because of Cambiasso. If we look it on the whole - Gerrard, Moutinho and Carrick is a better defensive unit than Cambiasso with Kroos and Silva.

Agree with your points on Coentrao and the collective defensive effort of the midfield. Both central defences are strong: Varane and Vidic complement one another very well, while Godin-Miranda has been the best central defensive partnership for 3 seasons now.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Sterling is very good defensively? He plays as a pure forward for Liverpool, hard working winger who tracks back each time he is not. He is much more liable to hang up front, waiting for a break. Silva too does not provide better defensive support to midfield than Gerrard.

Gerrard is as good as Silva defensively no doubt, was trying to point towards the fact that Silva has been a huge part for a high pressing Spain and he always does his job and his pressing game is great when that's whats asked from him.

Sterling I think also gets very underrated defensively. I think that Sterling/Sturridge are the only reason Liverpool can play at such a high intensity when they want too. Two lightning bolts defensively and even if they don't press all game Sterling has showed he's tactically capable of pressing well.

 

[antohan]

Yeah, I get that. But then, Müller will escape anyone with his runs at one point anyway. And I'd rather have him find his space in a position where he's comfortable when receiving the ball, than wide left where he's less effective than anywhere else in the final third.

Don't get me wrong, it's not really bad or means that Müller becomes useless or anything like that. If he finds open space, he will do something great. I just think that the move doesn't get the best out of him, just because he's up against a weaker fullback on paper. The beauty of playing Müller is that I don't give a feck about who he's up against. He's smarter and finds his moments anyway. If that move really helps Silva or Sterling to excel, then I'd understand it. If it's about Müller getting the better of Caceres, then I don't really like it.

At this point, you're probably frustrated that everyone has a different opinion how to line-up your versatile attackers, right?

The point is he will find them more regularly, not out in the wing "facing Cáceres", but exploiting any uncoordinated efforts between Cáceres and Varane. Varane effectively ends up having to mind Müller full time, and at the other end Sterling is occasionally dragging Vidic away from the pole, and Silva/Lewandowski will love that gaping centre. If Varane plugs the hole, he will do so knowing somewhere around/behind him Müller is up to his tricks, and that Cáceres is completely the wrong man to be minding him.

Christ, I don't mean to make him sound as a total liability. He has been excellent for us, particularly in that he affords us that flexibility of switching between back four and back five. I think it was against Italy that he ended up palying three different roles over the course of the game. That lets us adapt tactically, and in a back five positioning isn't my biggest concern, particularly in a defence which lacks pace. Positionally Godín and Lugano were absolutely fine, and Cáceres an ideal foil for them. Müller is just about the worst possible player he can be set against, the defence will turn into a complete shambles as a result.

 

[crappycraperson]

Agree with your points on Coentrao and the collective defensive effort of the midfield. Both central defences are strong: Varane and Vidic complement one another very well, while Godin-Miranda has been the best central defensive partnership for 3 seasons now.

And yet voted for Skizzo... booo..

 

[Annahnomoss]

This draft has had so many even games. Some very good discussion and participation as well. Fourth page now and it feels like positive and even discussion.

 

[crappycraperson]

Come on folks.. there are more votes in this.

 

[Physiocrat]

This is a mighty close game.

I see Skizzo having marginally more possession and has a very tasty forward line although Sterling is the weakest of any of the forwards on display in either team. Also Coentrao is perfectly capable of keeping him quiet. Muller on Caceres is another matter but Varane is solid and mobile so can cover reasonably well. Vidic is a rock especially as he won't be exposed by serious pace here. That said a Silva through ball or a deeper one by Kroos to Muller or Lewandowski will result in a goal.

Crappy's main danger man in Ribery who will feed the live wire Aguero supported by Stevie G bombing into the box. Despite a good game against Hazard I don't think Juanfran is all that defensively especially against more of a wide attacking midfielder. Also Aguero at his best can turn any defender inside out. Joaquin will provide excellent width although Evra at his peak was a quality defender. I do like the balance of Crappy's set up though especially with Gerrard providing grit in midfield.

I think both teams will score but Crappy will shade it. Aguero is a worse striker for Godin and Miranda than Lewandowski is for Vidic and Varane. Also the extra grit provided by Gerrard will aid Crappy defensively.

 

[Gio]

Gerrard is as good as Silva defensively no doubt, was trying to point towards the fact that Silva has been a huge part for a high pressing Spain and he always does his job and his pressing game is great when that's whats asked from him.

Even acknowledging Silva's role as part of Spain's shape, Gerrard will offer a lot more defensively in terms of his energy, ability to cover ground, ball-winning, marking, tackling, etc.

 

[antohan]

Agüero is a worse striker for Godin and Miranda than Lewandowski is for Vidic and Varane. Also the extra grit provided by Gerrard will aid Crappy defensively.

A very good point this. Far more important than the silly discussions about Miranda><Varane.

 

[MJJ]

Am refraining from voting as while I believe crappy will win, as I said before the poll change wasn't fair to Skizzo.

 

[crappycraperson]

Am refraining from voting as while I believe crappy will win, as I said before the poll change wasn't fair to Skizzo.

Come on, that is bogus. There is very little chance that those folks have not re voted