Skizzo
Full Member
what ended up swaying you the other way?Agreed. Muller alone almost made a deciding factor for voting for you. I'm surprised with how underrated he is.
what ended up swaying you the other way?Agreed. Muller alone almost made a deciding factor for voting for you. I'm surprised with how underrated he is.
As much as I rate the Atletico defense trio I think only Godin is world class there, and although I rate your attack much higher, I don't think your midfield-defense will deal with it good enough. Gerrard will get a lot of freedom. Last match against Barney the whole concept of my plan was to deny him of space, and it seems like no one will do it here, and with players like Aguero and Ribery in front of him it could be costly.what ended up swaying you the other way?
Surely.@Skizzo think your being skrewed by the poll switch.
Cambiasso is there. He is guaranteed to be more of a nuisance to him, than anyone on the other team is to Silva.As much as I rate the Atletico defense trio I think only Godin is world class there, and although I rate your attack much higher, I don't think your midfield-defense will deal with it good enough. Gerrard will get a lot of freedom. Last match against Barney the whole concept of my plan was to deny him of space, and it seems like no one will do it here, and with players like Aguero and Ribery in front of him it could be costly.
Yeah that was a bit of a bitch@Skizzo think your being skrewed by the poll switch.
sack @Edgar Allan Pillow.Yeah that was a bit of a bitch
I thought about asking if we could just keep the votes and not have managers count double, that way it wouldnt matter who voted, just so we wouldn't have to start again...but this way is the way it's supposed to be done, so oh well.
I knew he'd get back at me somehow eventually.
The diamond was a possibility, but that would let his full backs off the hook. They're the weakest area of his team, and Sterling and Muller can do some damage there. Playing a diamond would make it easier to defend against our threats, whereas here, they would struggle and be on the back foot.Although Caceres is indeed a liability I think Crappy has better player for player (with few exceptions) and superior attack. I feel Skizzo may be better using a 4-4-2 diamond, but he couldn't accommodate Sterling.
Don't forget to vote as wellMüller is not on the peak with 25 now. And maybe we should tell that he completed the 25 CL goals last weeks - half a year prior to the time a CR7 did... And he scored a lot of them in final stages and/or against teams out of the top nations...
It sure wasn't me complaining about Silva and Müller, I had no issue with it whatsoever. I could see some of the points raised, but there was a good case either way.Last match we got all sorts of complaints about Silva playing as an IF on the right, and Muller playing centrally...and it was said they weren't in their preferred roles, even though both had played those positions and roles many times.
Now you suggest completely switching flanks, to where Muller hasn't played anywhere near as often is just inviting the same criticism.
No i didn't mean you necessarily. I usually feel you're able to look at a team sheet and see how it would work in actuality, rather than some who just look at a team sheet and spout some nonsense.It sure wasn't me complaining about Silva and Müller, I had no issue with it whatsoever. I could see some of the points raised, but there was a good case either way.
Pretty much what I've been saying.Very interesting match up. Both teams have ball playing midfields who would do great in an open match, Skizzo has the better set up defensively though for me in terms of the midfield. Skizzos attackers Muller/Lewandowski/Silva/Sterling would be very good defensively and would have so much hassling ability that it would cause problems for Carrick/Moutinho.
With that said Aguero-Gerrard looks dead certain to lead to goals and Ribery on the left will be doing great too with Coentrao who is really damn good offensively. Crappy's defense doesn't look too fun in my mind as I don't rate Varane too high at all - he's still a work in progress and his positioning needs a lot of work.
Coentrao/Caceres aren't top class either and Vidic has such a difficult job ahead of him to keep that defense from trembling. Vidic showed with his work with Rafael/Jones/Smalling/Evans that he'd be up for this job.
And the problem is you aren't exploiting it. For all the knee-jerk player switching you did at the back to deal with his strengths, you have chosen not to engage in that when it comes to exploiting his weaknesses.You have the two weakest fullbacks....arguably by a good distance.
You tell me, I was picking him before he won the World Cup. In fact, Balu has me as some form of reverse-jynx single-handedly responsible for Müller and Schweini's form, probably Götze's goal to boot.Agreed. Muller alone almost made a deciding factor for voting for you. I'm surprised with how underrated he is.
Pretty much what I've been saying.
Both teams have goals in them. No two ways about that. But the biggest difference, I feel, is that we're much better equipped to handle his, than vice versa. Wouldn't claim to keep a shut out, but definitely think we could outscore him based on attack vs defence of both teams.
How is Cambiasso tracking Gerrard if he is supposed to be supporting Juanfran against Ribery? And if he isn't supporting Juanfran, what the hell is he doing on the right of that midfield?Cambiasso is there. He is guaranteed to be more of a nuisance to him, than anyone on the other team is to Silva.
Switch the names around and you have the exact same issue with crappy's defence. Except his full backs and defence are more suspect than mine. You seemed to have failed to mention that at any point? Yet somehow Muller wouldn't be effective? His movement and runs are more than enough to cause trouble for Vidic if he's apparently just following Lewandowski around. Lewandowski runs all game, he'll be dragging Vidic everywhere if he's just supposed to be marking him.And the problem is you aren't exploiting it. For all the knee-jerk player switching you did at the back to deal with his strengths, you have chosen not to engage in that when it comes to exploiting his weaknesses.
@MDFC Manager made a very valid point, game-changing IMO:
- if Cáceres has pace but is positionally suspect, do you want him against Sterling or Müller?
You've got your wingers the wrong way around, that's why no one gives a toss about his fullbacks being weaker than yours.
- if Vidic seems to be the lynchpin of the defence and has Lewandowski in his pocket, what else do you want but a player like Sterling trying to unsettle him and drag him out of his comfort zone with his pace and incisiveness?
is that a good face? bad face? pudding face?
I looked back through this thread...can't see where you got the idea from what Cambiasso is working on Ribery. OP states what Cambiasso's job is.How is Cambiasso tracking Gerrard if he is supposed to be supporting Juanfran against Ribery? And if he isn't supporting Juanfran, what the hell is he doing on the right of that midfield?
With all your stronger defensive players focused on Ribery, Gerrard and Agüero will tear you a new one. You need to switch back one of Godín or Cambiasso, the latter IMO as Godín is already providing adequate support where it is most needed and you need to pick up Gerrard early before it is too late.
Whilst their whole team is industrious, you are heavily downplaying the individual quality of that Atleti defense. They did not need that much protection as you are making it out to be and neither are they just 'decent' individuals being carried by their team and their graft by any stretch of imagination.The reason behind Atheletico's defensive prowess is the whole team set up and as to how everyone defends from top to bottom. They do not have exception defensive quality (bar Godin perhaps) to otherwise account for it. That is missing from your team since neither Silva or Sterling are known for their graft nor have you set them up to play like Madrid
In every planet mate, every single planet. He's considerably a better CB than Varane. It's a blatant no contest.I mean on which planet is Miranda a better defender than Varane? He can't even get into the Brazilian team ahead of Luiz.
Like I said before, no way would that be possible.Varane-Vidic would not be a better partnership than them if they had gotten the chance to play together.
Once again Juanfran is a much much better FB than Coentrao and has shown much more throughout his career, being MOTM against Chelsea in the semi final at Stamford Bridge and consistently coming up trumps against the likes of Neymar, Hazard and Ronaldo on the right.I would have Coentrao ahead of him in terms of pure quality.
I don't see anything wrong in going for proven partnerships and our defense is hands down significantly better than yours both individually (bar Vidic) and collectively. I doubt if anyone would seriously contest that claim.reject your assertion that your defense is better. It is mainly founded on the fact that you have 3 of Athletico's defense together. But that is not the point of a "fantasy draft" at all.
Fair enough, they are different types of players and I think they are of equal quality but I can understand it if someone claims Gerrard is better or vice versa.But peak Gerrard > peak Silva for me.
- Match reportMadrid's defence screamed offside, but it was inattention from Varane that led to the striker being left all alone, and he (Lewandowski) made no mistake in punishing the error as he slammed past Lopez for his and BVB's second.
Exactly this, finally someone .The 10's are Silva finding gaps wide of and between Moutinho and Carrick might be a tad more promising than Gerrard having to deal with Cambiasso in his face all game
That's a fair point but you are forgetting Kroos's impact mate. Kroos's defensive work and esp his industry tends to be criminally overlooked. Tbf I initially did that too, given his lack of dynamism and he's extremely deceptive in this regard. I addressed his aptitude for putting a shift in comprehensively in this post.though Moutinho might be a key figure with Gerrard occupying Cambiasso's attention and Silva not really getting back to stop Moutinho from pulling strings.
While Kroos certainly kept the ball expertly – 91 touches of the ball and a 96% pass completion rate speak for themselves – he was also able to dictate the speed of the play at will, surprising the Portuguese defense over and over again by mixing up long diagonal balls with direct passing and dangerous crosses, one of which resulted in Müller’s second goal just before half-time. Add the corner that was directly converted via a Mats Hummels header and you’re looking at an all-round excellent attacking display.
Equally important, Toni Kroos has also made a significant leap in his defensive work rate and intelligence over the last two years and it was evident more than ever against Portugal. The 11,7 kilometres covered by the Bayern Munich midfielder represented a team high. While this stat reveals little about the actual purpose and quality of the runs, his willingness to track João Moutinho was admirable and ensured that the creative Portuguese midfielder never got a foothold in the game. Kroos’s determination to prove himself in the national team was there for all to see and his ability to keep up the tension may prove vital to Germany’s chances of winning the World Cup.
I'm surprised by that tbh. Moutinho has more mobility but in terms of quality I'd have Kroos over him. He was an integral player for the treble winning team and the WC winning German team (scoring 2 goals and 4 assists with a 9.79 rating and being rated as the best player if the WC by Castrol Index ratings).while moutinho edges out kroos. I
Fair enough but I really think Cambiasso would be able to contain Gerrard and likewise Kroos with Moutinho. So much so that I can see Silva (against Carrick) causing more problems than Gerrard would to our midfield.I think crappy's midfield would over-power Skizzo's midfield
Keep in mind that whilst Gerrard would do his fair share of tracking back, his forwards are going to do zilch in this regard. Contrast this with our forward line whereby Sterling, Müller and Lewa will put a shift in with only Silva being a passenger in this regard. That has to count for something in the grand scheme of things with his weaker defense needing much more protection than ours.i did forget Gerrard influence, I actually think with him you will win the midfield battle.
Müller has a free role, as always and will cut in when he sees fit. He isn't playing as a line hugging winger here mind.I don't think Silva will be that effective without Kroos also playing higher up/Muller playing closer and centrally.
I'd have to disagree with that and refer you to my reply to NoPace.as a duo Moutinho and Carrick offer better protection IMO.
I'm sure Varane wouldn't be comfortable with that as shown above with Lewa schooling him.I feel much better about either Varane or Vidic taking care of Lewandoski in similar circumstances.
Most certainly not to the extent of Varane. Sterling is the current European Golden Boy, was a key player for a title chasing Pool, is arguably Pool's most valuable player currently and has shown much more than Varane throughout his career. Just check out Varane's appearances record and you'll understand how grossly he's been overrated on the basis of a handful of good games (and a good WC tbf).Seldom has a player had to play on his wrong side in draft games as poor old Cambiasso. Reckon Sterling's getting over-rated in the context of this pool, for all his flourishing talents he's clearly the weakest winger / attacking midfielder on the pitch.
Not at all, because Müller is the sort of player whose movement and intelligence makes him unplayable for any defender who isn't fully aware and positionally sound. Differently from Sterling, by the time Cáceres works out what's up there's no amount of pace that will make up for it. I agree Müller also causes problems on the other side, sure, but Müller causes Cáceres far more problems than Sterling not just because he is better but because his strengths are were Cáceres' weaknesses lie. Likewise, Sterling will cause more problems to Vidic when Coentrao gets caught upfield, because Sterling's strengths are a better challenge to present to Vidic than to Cáceres.Switch the names around and you have the exact same issue with crappy's defence. Except his full backs and defence are more suspect than mine. You seemed to have failed to mention that at any point? Yet somehow Muller wouldn't be effective? His movement and runs are more than enough to cause trouble for Vidic if he's apparently just following Lewandowski around. Lewandowski runs all game, he'll be dragging Vidic everywhere if he's just supposed to be marking him.
Sterling has the pace to cause problems when Caceres is caught out positionally. Putting Muller there, your argument would be "well Caceres would just get back and outrun Muller".
Nobody said he can't play on the right, the point is he is a left-footed player who would be more comfortable and productive with his passing on the left. Furthermore, you need him on the left, because that's the side looking vulnerable. The only sensible explanation for him being right is the teamsheet marketing effect of making Ribery look like he is trapped in a cage.I looked back through this thread...can't see where you got the idea from what Cambiasso is working on Ribery. OP states what Cambiasso's job is.
As for Cambiasso not being able to play on the right of a defensive two? He played on the right with Motta on the left for Inter in the Champions League, notably when they knocked out Chelsea and Barcelona.
Yeah that was a bit of a bitch
I thought about asking if we could just keep the votes and not have managers count double, that way it wouldnt matter who voted, just so we wouldn't have to start again...but this way is the way it's supposed to be done, so oh well.
What? When the last poll was down, I recall the score was somewhere along the lines of 8-6 in your favour, iirc. There was no way of knowing who voted where and crappy wanted the rule to be enforced. And it was.I knew he'd get back at me somehow eventually.
Look at the bloody teamsheets. If Kroos is dealing with Moutinho and Cambiasso is dealing with Gerrard why the hell are they arranged the other way around. It's really not that bloody hard to work out.Fair enough but I really think Cambiasso would be able to contain Gerrard and likewise Kroos with Moutinho.
And the reason he plays on the right there @Skizzo is that he is the best DM and Zanetti is rock solid while Maicon was a complete spacker, so you play Cambiasso right for cover, but squeezing in to make the stronger Pedro/Messi flank run into a dead end. You can see it clearly on the picture above, they created a funnel of sorts with those three flanked by two either side and Lucio at the tip. They gobbled them up and spat them out.
Not to mention the norm is that only one out of manager or assistant (which should not exist in this draft in the first place) posts in match day thread. In any case I will be replying to posts by either one of @Skizzo or @Joga Bonito today. They can decide and nominate one as they please.G3 - No Assistant Managers. It wastes more time. But non-playing members can act as a 'scout' recommending players. Manager have the only say in teams. Scouts cannot vote for manager's games.
No, leave it as is. The thread was changed early, and Rado made the thread title clear. Whichever way it goes, we should only count the votes that are in the current poll.@Edgar Allan Pillow @Skizzo
We can try to find out who all voted for Skizzo in the first poll and if some votes are not accounted for we can add those to Skizzo's current tally.
The AM was banned to speed up the drafting process. I believe EAP said only one (either manager or "scout") can be posting in the thread at the time, as is the norm in drafts anyway. If you feel like we've ganged up on you, apologies. I'll make sure it's only one of us from here on out.As per the rules.
Not to mention the norm is that only one out of manager or assistant (which should not exist in this draft in the first place) posts in match day thread. In any case I will be replying to posts by either one of @Skizzo or @Joga Bonito today. They can decide and nominate one as they please.
Sterling is very good defensively? He plays as a pure forward for Liverpool, hard working winger who tracks back each time he is not. He is much more liable to hang up front, waiting for a break. Silva too does not provide better defensive support to midfield than Gerrard.Very interesting match up. Both teams have ball playing midfields who would do great in an open match, Skizzo has the better set up defensively though for me in terms of the midfield. Skizzos attackers Muller/Lewandowski/Silva/Sterling would be very good defensively and would have so much hassling ability that it would cause problems for Carrick/Moutinho.
That is a solid change and IMO Silva is now far more enabled, with movement much closer to him. Still missing a central runner from midfield but I'm now having to reconsider my vote.Fair enough @antohan and @MDFC Manager you do make some compelling points.
Not a sub, but a tactical update. Ball went out for a throw and the word was passed from the bench. Müller was instructed to swap with Sterling, looking to take advantage of the positional naivety of Caceres, and Sterling will be looking to drive at Vidic and unsettle him with pace, his kryptonite.
Cambiasso will swap with Kroos, still picking up Gerrard's runs from deep, while Kroos vigilantly keeps an eye on Moutinho potentially pushing forward.
Godín will still be looking to support Juanfran retaining his RCB role and cover in case Ribery cuts inside
@Edgar Allan Pillow
Cheers.
Underrated? No, I wouldn't say so. But i think you rate him higher than he is in this context. He's a good defender, who hasn't yet reached his peak, or shown his talents on the highest level consistently. No one said he was crap, just not quite as good as you made out. I think it was fair.Mega post in coming.. to lazy to quote I will take in some of the criticisms..
- I am shocked that Varane has been underestimated here. I have no plans to replace him before the final. Vidic-Varane is as good a pairing you can get in the draft.
I'll address these points together, since they somewhat go hand in hand. You've made comments about Coentrao pushing up to support the attack. Others have even made comments, talking in your favour about him attacking, and you never corrected that. So with Coentrao pushed up, it leaves spaces open to exploit. Also, on one hand you're talking about not using inverted wingers, even though you are? Not quite sure what you were getting at. I assume you mean you wouldn't want to use an IF on each side?- Coentrao being portrayed as a weak link. He was part of the Madrid team that faced Bayern in CL semis last year. He came up against an attack containing Muller, Ribery and Robben. Yet he he was part of the defense that kept a clean sheet away from home. Incidentally in the same match, Kroos started in a MF two with Schwein, something Pep acknowledged was a tactical blunder later on.
- I have never "underrrated" Muller here. I conceded he will have an impact. I stand by my statement that for my side I would rather have Joaquin on right than Muller. (I even had the option to get Robben in drafting last round but stuck with Joaquin). Robbery with Bayern and then Ronaldo+Bale for Madrid have led to people think that inverted wingers is the way to go. I don't agree with that and believe there is great value in playing a winger that would widen the attacking area rather than cutting in all the time. The other comment about him not skinning anyone is valid. His strength lies elsewhere than playing like Ribery or Robben against the fullback.
Did I say cheap shot? My point was that you're picking out one player in particular who gave him trouble. It was an anomaly more than anything. You know who else was never a shut out full back ala cole?- Why is brining up Lennon skinning Evra a cheap shot? It did happen, did it not? Evra was indeed the best left back in the world for period of 2 years at least. But even during his peak, he was never a shut out full back ala Cole. He would always give the winger against some chances. Part of it was concealed in the United team when we played Giggs in front of him and also due to Rio-Vida being there.
Never underrated Ribery. Made mention of it in the OP. I recognized your danger men, commented on them, and said how we would stop them tactically. I still don't think you've acknowledged my team would score, which is a ridiculous stance considering my attack. Oh..but then again...- Ribery against Juanfran is a better match up for me than any of his widemen against my fullbacks. Peak Ribery remains one of the most underrated players about. There is a reason why he won the UEFA player of the season award that season and came 3rd in Ballon'dor.
You have a one man brick wall in goal that has never conceded a goal. I could look at DDG's performances in goal and see him making saves, and I can see him in goal when we shipped 5 at Leicester.- Finally as much as Skizzo may wany to avoid talking about it. I simply have the much much better keeper here. And yes, that does help my defense more and increases my chances of conceding less goals or no goals. . Just look at DDG's performance at OT for an illustration of how a keeper can help his team win the match. Peak Cech was even better than current DDG's level.
Sterling is very good defensively? He plays as a pure forward for Liverpool, hard working winger who tracks back each time he is not. He is much more liable to hang up front, waiting for a break. Silva too does not provide better defensive support to midfield than Gerrard.