The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked

[sunama]

There's a difference in the way City lose the odd game and we lose abysmally to fodder.

Let's get the difference between us and City - City lose to Wigan occasionally and maybe to a top team at times. We lose to both lesser teams and top teams quite frequently and can't string together more than a 3 game run of wins.

I thought you were going to say "can't string together more than 3 passes"....which actually wouldn't be too far off the truth.
I do wonder what the hell we are doing on the training pitch.

 

[Red_toad]

Like who? Those are the ones I know where speculated on we all heard about how desperate we were for a CB. Remember Jose clearly stated last season that he didn't need attackers? Who are these world class game changing signings we wanted but didn't get now ?

Dybala, Bale and Varane straight off the top of my head.
As we were linked to well over 60 players in the summer, who the heck knows what the club really pursued.

 

[Bilbo]

The right answers to lots of the questions being posed here are actually quite simple, but to really get to them is in many ways complex.

To start with, you don't need to be an expert in medicine to hire a good surgeon for your hospital. Just like you don't need to be the world's brightest mathematician to hire a good mathematics professor for your univerity. A basic knowledge in both fields helps, of course, but a little is sufficient.

What you do need to have is the right criteria when selecting for the best candidates. Things like general intelligence, a good ability to explain their work in the field, a good ability to explain their values and why they work the way they work and why that is the best way to operate within that field. Additionally, things like a generally pleasant attitude is important. Especially important in roles where that person is some sort of team leader, since their attitude will have a great impact on the team they are leading.

Our hiring process has been lacking any of those things, as far as I can tell. Since Sir Alex we first had a Scottish guy who seems like a decent fellow overall, but whom it doesn't take more than 10 minutes of listening to, to figure out that he does not posses the intelligence or leadership qualities needed to lead a top football club, no offense to him, it's just the harsh truth.

Then we hired a man whose insistence on a specific football "philosophy" was extremely rigid, outdated, and overall uninspiring to the team and limiting to our progress in the long run. These things should have also been painfully obvious if anyone at the club spent some time seriously discussing football with LVG.

Finally we hired Mourinho. Not a lot of description needed for him but, it suffices to say, it should have also only taken a short conversation, or a short youtube search, to figure out he was never going to be a good fit, in the long run, to manage our club. Anything further than letting him take over some training sessions during the summer for variety's sake was him being in the job for too long.

What I'm trying to say is - there has been a lot of conversation about what types of things bring success. Is it being a 'real man'? Is it praying to the football gods? Is it playing a certain style of football? Is it playing Fellaini up top? Is it being bald (like recent history suggests)? Is it being charismatic? Is it being likable? Is it being a legend in the sport?

There is an answer to this question here which is, and has been, there for anyone who has seriously tried to figure it out. And the answer goes something like this: While it is not easy to predict what the best attributes that lead to success are, there is one that stands out and is possessed by the vast majority of successful people, particularly when it comes to management and leadership positions: intelligence.

Jose certainly believes that he is extremely intelligent but watching him contradict himself every other week should be proof that he is in fact supremely confused. Going even further, his renowned reputation as a manager who understands psychology to a high degree is completely laughable. He doesn't even seem to understand his own emotions most of the time, with plenty of examples to point to since the beginning of this season.

I obviously don't know Jose in his personal life but in his managerial career, especially since his second sacking from Chelsea, he has too often behaved like a textbook narcissist. And they all think that they are much smarter than they actually are, and they all refuse to change their stubborn ways, and they all point to anything and everything around them to justify it when they begin failing at whatever it is they are supposed to be doing. They will especially do this with things that are true.

That's the tough part for people to understand - a cunning narcissist, when failing, will not just begin blaming the weather or the fact that he woke up in the wrong side of the bed that morning. He will instead blame things that are actually kind of true, but blow them out of proportion just the right amount so that you feel like you are losing your mind. This is also called gaslighting. The desired reaction is - well he can't be wrong because what he is saying kind of makes sense - our players do kind of suck, the board does seem to have been doing a bad job at managing the club since SAF retired, City do seem to have spent a lot of money, Pogba does seem to post a lot on Instagram, Martial does seem to always have a resting b*tch face on.

Anyone can point to problems. The best leaders and managers, and more specifically the most intelligent people and the most successful people at most things, have never, as a general rule, been ones to blame others. Imagine Mourinho being in charge of Spurs, for example, this season with all that has been happening there. It would be a total catastrophe. Poch, in contrast, has for the most part continued on being professional, with the understanding that he can only play his part and blaming others will serve as no help to anyone or to the club. This is not to say that he would never be critical. It is simply the case that it takes a deeper understanding of when to be critical and when not to be in order to make a great leader or manager. That understanding comes from being intelligent. Mourinho lacks this understanding and he has always lacked it.

I have said all of this, and I haven't even gotten on to perhaps one of the most essential aspects of Mourinho - his general outlook on football. Yes, he has won a lot, but like it has been said a thousand times, football has changed. It was always going to change. Just like the narcissistic traits in his personality, his outlook on football mirrors his outlook on life - it's negative, reactive, and regressive. He believes that the best way to win a game is to make less mistakes than the other team. That in itself is such a terrible line of thinking that I don't even know where to begin with it.

So I will conclude with this: we should all try to get past what is necessarily true and what isn't about Manchester United. I don't mean forget it or ignore it, I don't mean not to talk about whether Smalling is good enough or not, by all means we should keep talking about that. But we should primarily attempt to look beyond it for a second. There are a million things wrong with our club at the moment, and it is easy to send ourselves into a frenzy not knowing which thing to start with, or which thing contradicts another and needs no addressing. It is never any help to panic. We have, since SAF retired, panicked like crazy. It has led to many bad decisions and now we find ourselves where we are - with a million bad decisions and an inability to decide what to do next. The truth is - it doesn't matter where we start, we just have to start from somewhere. Sacking Mourinho seems like a good place.

Excellent post - I think that's the thing a lot of people don't see with Mourinho. He seems to be generally accepted by most as a very intelligent man, but he is far too controlled by his emotions (and as you say racked with narcissism) to ever really be in complete control.

We see periods of apparent control, followed by unnecessary outbursts, picking fights where there are none, then back to control and repeat. I really think that how he believes people perceive him is far more important to him than the success of our club. Any club.

 

[Random Task]

The right answers to lots of the questions being posed here are actually quite simple, but to really get to them is in many ways complex.

To start with, you don't need to be an expert in medicine to hire a good surgeon for your hospital. Just like you don't need to be the world's brightest mathematician to hire a good mathematics professor for your univerity. A basic knowledge in both fields helps, of course, but a little is sufficient.

What you do need to have is the right criteria when selecting for the best candidates. Things like general intelligence, a good ability to explain their work in the field, a good ability to explain their values and why they work the way they work and why that is the best way to operate within that field. Additionally, things like a generally pleasant attitude is important. Especially important in roles where that person is some sort of team leader, since their attitude will have a great impact on the team they are leading.

Our hiring process has been lacking any of those things, as far as I can tell. Since Sir Alex we first had a Scottish guy who seems like a decent fellow overall, but whom it doesn't take more than 10 minutes of listening to, to figure out that he does not posses the intelligence or leadership qualities needed to lead a top football club, no offense to him, it's just the harsh truth.

Then we hired a man whose insistence on a specific football "philosophy" was extremely rigid, outdated, and overall uninspiring to the team and limiting to our progress in the long run. These things should have also been painfully obvious if anyone at the club spent some time seriously discussing football with LVG.

Finally we hired Mourinho. Not a lot of description needed for him but, it suffices to say, it should have also only taken a short conversation, or a short youtube search, to figure out he was never going to be a good fit, in the long run, to manage our club. Anything further than letting him take over some training sessions during the summer for variety's sake was him being in the job for too long.

What I'm trying to say is - there has been a lot of conversation about what types of things bring success. Is it being a 'real man'? Is it praying to the football gods? Is it playing a certain style of football? Is it playing Fellaini up top? Is it being bald (like recent history suggests)? Is it being charismatic? Is it being likable? Is it being a legend in the sport?

There is an answer to this question here which is, and has been, there for anyone who has seriously tried to figure it out. And the answer goes something like this: While it is not easy to predict what the best attributes that lead to success are, there is one that stands out and is possessed by the vast majority of successful people, particularly when it comes to management and leadership positions: intelligence.

Jose certainly believes that he is extremely intelligent but watching him contradict himself every other week should be proof that he is in fact supremely confused. Going even further, his renowned reputation as a manager who understands psychology to a high degree is completely laughable. He doesn't even seem to understand his own emotions most of the time, with plenty of examples to point to since the beginning of this season.

I obviously don't know Jose in his personal life but in his managerial career, especially since his second sacking from Chelsea, he has too often behaved like a textbook narcissist. And they all think that they are much smarter than they actually are, and they all refuse to change their stubborn ways, and they all point to anything and everything around them to justify it when they begin failing at whatever it is they are supposed to be doing. They will especially do this with things that are true.

That's the tough part for people to understand - a cunning narcissist, when failing, will not just begin blaming the weather or the fact that he woke up in the wrong side of the bed that morning. He will instead blame things that are actually kind of true, but blow them out of proportion just the right amount so that you feel like you are losing your mind. This is also called gaslighting. The desired reaction is - well he can't be wrong because what he is saying kind of makes sense - our players do kind of suck, the board does seem to have been doing a bad job at managing the club since SAF retired, City do seem to have spent a lot of money, Pogba does seem to post a lot on Instagram, Martial does seem to always have a resting b*tch face on.

Anyone can point to problems. The best leaders and managers, and more specifically the most intelligent people and the most successful people at most things, have never, as a general rule, been ones to blame others. Imagine Mourinho being in charge of Spurs, for example, this season with all that has been happening there. It would be a total catastrophe. Poch, in contrast, has for the most part continued on being professional, with the understanding that he can only play his part and blaming others will serve as no help to anyone or to the club. This is not to say that he would never be critical. It is simply the case that it takes a deeper understanding of when to be critical and when not to be in order to make a great leader or manager. That understanding comes from being intelligent. Mourinho lacks this understanding and he has always lacked it.

I have said all of this, and I haven't even gotten on to perhaps one of the most essential aspects of Mourinho - his general outlook on football. Yes, he has won a lot, but like it has been said a thousand times, football has changed. It was always going to change. Just like the narcissistic traits in his personality, his outlook on football mirrors his outlook on life - it's negative, reactive, and regressive. He believes that the best way to win a game is to make less mistakes than the other team. That in itself is such a terrible line of thinking that I don't even know where to begin with it.

So I will conclude with this: we should all try to get past what is necessarily true and what isn't about Manchester United. I don't mean forget it or ignore it, I don't mean not to talk about whether Smalling is good enough or not, by all means we should keep talking about that. But we should primarily attempt to look beyond it for a second. There are a million things wrong with our club at the moment, and it is easy to send ourselves into a frenzy not knowing which thing to start with, or which thing contradicts another and needs no addressing. It is never any help to panic. We have, since SAF retired, panicked like crazy. It has led to many bad decisions and now we find ourselves where we are - with a million bad decisions and an inability to decide what to do next. The truth is - it doesn't matter where we start, we just have to start from somewhere. Sacking Mourinho seems like a good place.

I stopped reading there.

Excellent summary of events.

 

[VP89]

That was 6 years ago and he had Ronaldo at the height of his powers banging in 46 goals in the league alone. Football has evolved tactically too.

Has it? Pep had arguably the best side in history and his tactics were no different to what he applies TO City today.

He still lost La Liga to Jose though. Yeah Jose had Ronaldo but Pep has Messi & Co. too.

 

[CM]

I am at work and can't dig into articles right now, but do you remember some interviews post match (I think Juventus away was one and Bournemouth another) where the interviewer mentioned the constant slow starts?

Jose said something like how they practise all week in training and when the opposition score it looks like they haven't really prepared even though they work all week on it.

Looking back at a quick scan,

Post match vs Brighton which was a while ago "we didn't play like how I prepared for us to play"

Post match vs Bournemouth "it looked like we don't work tactically during the week, which is the worst thing for me as we work hard".

I can't find the other quotes but I'm sure when he was asked about making faster starts he agreed and said they work on it in training.

I know what I found doesn't specify pressing but I'm sure he's touched on it in one of his interviews.

If that is the case why does he regularly use Matic and Fellaini who have proven themselves incapable of playing in that way?

Souness can talk a lot of rubbish but his assessment of our midfield on Sunday was bang on. Mourinho's either got a blind spot the size of a small continent or he's stubborn beyond belief and refuses to change. Neither scenario reflects favourably on him.

 

[ash_86]

I was simply making the point that he attributed the defeats even to Brighton and West Ham constantly to his lack of signings. Absolutely took every chance to make that point. Does it matter if he played Herrera etc as CB in that game or others when his message was constant?

There is only reason to bash him and that is this - it is his tactics that are lacking and our defeats are not some off days like City's. Just trying to defend him by saying City lost to Wigan doesn't work, it's actually a pretty ridiculous comparison.

I said we played shit and that's down to him, that's not defending him. City example was of a big club loosing to smaller one. You could probably substitute it with Pool or Chelsea or other big ones i don't care.

 

[VP89]

If that is the case why does he regularly use Matic and Fellaini who have proven themselves incapable of playing in that way?

Souness can talk a lot of rubbish but his assessment of our midfield on Sunday was bang on. Mourinho's either got a blind spot the size of a small continent or he's stubborn beyond belief and refuses to change. Neither scenario reflects favourably on him.

He doesn't regularly start Fellaini. I agree on Matic though.

 

[Jed I. Knight]

The right answers to lots of the questions being posed here are actually quite simple, but to really get to them is in many ways complex.

To start with, you don't need to be an expert in medicine to hire a good surgeon for your hospital. Just like you don't need to be the world's brightest mathematician to hire a good mathematics professor for your univerity. A basic knowledge in both fields helps, of course, but a little is sufficient.

What you do need to have is the right criteria when selecting for the best candidates. Things like general intelligence, a good ability to explain their work in the field, a good ability to explain their values and why they work the way they work and why that is the best way to operate within that field. Additionally, things like a generally pleasant attitude is important. Especially important in roles where that person is some sort of team leader, since their attitude will have a great impact on the team they are leading.

Our hiring process has been lacking any of those things, as far as I can tell. Since Sir Alex we first had a Scottish guy who seems like a decent fellow overall, but whom it doesn't take more than 10 minutes of listening to, to figure out that he does not posses the intelligence or leadership qualities needed to lead a top football club, no offense to him, it's just the harsh truth.

Then we hired a man whose insistence on a specific football "philosophy" was extremely rigid, outdated, and overall uninspiring to the team and limiting to our progress in the long run. These things should have also been painfully obvious if anyone at the club spent some time seriously discussing football with LVG.

Finally we hired Mourinho. Not a lot of description needed for him but, it suffices to say, it should have also only taken a short conversation, or a short youtube search, to figure out he was never going to be a good fit, in the long run, to manage our club. Anything further than letting him take over some training sessions during the summer for variety's sake was him being in the job for too long.

What I'm trying to say is - there has been a lot of conversation about what types of things bring success. Is it being a 'real man'? Is it praying to the football gods? Is it playing a certain style of football? Is it playing Fellaini up top? Is it being bald (like recent history suggests)? Is it being charismatic? Is it being likable? Is it being a legend in the sport?

There is an answer to this question here which is, and has been, there for anyone who has seriously tried to figure it out. And the answer goes something like this: While it is not easy to predict what the best attributes that lead to success are, there is one that stands out and is possessed by the vast majority of successful people, particularly when it comes to management and leadership positions: intelligence.

Jose certainly believes that he is extremely intelligent but watching him contradict himself every other week should be proof that he is in fact supremely confused. Going even further, his renowned reputation as a manager who understands psychology to a high degree is completely laughable. He doesn't even seem to understand his own emotions most of the time, with plenty of examples to point to since the beginning of this season.

I obviously don't know Jose in his personal life but in his managerial career, especially since his second sacking from Chelsea, he has too often behaved like a textbook narcissist. And they all think that they are much smarter than they actually are, and they all refuse to change their stubborn ways, and they all point to anything and everything around them to justify it when they begin failing at whatever it is they are supposed to be doing. They will especially do this with things that are true.

That's the tough part for people to understand - a cunning narcissist, when failing, will not just begin blaming the weather or the fact that he woke up in the wrong side of the bed that morning. He will instead blame things that are actually kind of true, but blow them out of proportion just the right amount so that you feel like you are losing your mind. This is also called gaslighting. The desired reaction is - well he can't be wrong because what he is saying kind of makes sense - our players do kind of suck, the board does seem to have been doing a bad job at managing the club since SAF retired, City do seem to have spent a lot of money, Pogba does seem to post a lot on Instagram, Martial does seem to always have a resting b*tch face on.

Anyone can point to problems. The best leaders and managers, and more specifically the most intelligent people and the most successful people at most things, have never, as a general rule, been ones to blame others. Imagine Mourinho being in charge of Spurs, for example, this season with all that has been happening there. It would be a total catastrophe. Poch, in contrast, has for the most part continued on being professional, with the understanding that he can only play his part and blaming others will serve as no help to anyone or to the club. This is not to say that he would never be critical. It is simply the case that it takes a deeper understanding of when to be critical and when not to be in order to make a great leader or manager. That understanding comes from being intelligent. Mourinho lacks this understanding and he has always lacked it.

I have said all of this, and I haven't even gotten on to perhaps one of the most essential aspects of Mourinho - his general outlook on football. Yes, he has won a lot, but like it has been said a thousand times, football has changed. It was always going to change. Just like the narcissistic traits in his personality, his outlook on football mirrors his outlook on life - it's negative, reactive, and regressive. He believes that the best way to win a game is to make less mistakes than the other team. That in itself is such a terrible line of thinking that I don't even know where to begin with it.

So I will conclude with this: we should all try to get past what is necessarily true and what isn't about Manchester United. I don't mean forget it or ignore it, I don't mean not to talk about whether Smalling is good enough or not, by all means we should keep talking about that. But we should primarily attempt to look beyond it for a second. There are a million things wrong with our club at the moment, and it is easy to send ourselves into a frenzy not knowing which thing to start with, or which thing contradicts another and needs no addressing. It is never any help to panic. We have, since SAF retired, panicked like crazy. It has led to many bad decisions and now we find ourselves where we are - with a million bad decisions and an inability to decide what to do next. The truth is - it doesn't matter where we start, we just have to start from somewhere. Sacking Mourinho seems like a good place.

Great post.

 

[Oneunited26]

If that is the case why does he regularly use Matic and Fellaini who have proven themselves incapable of playing in that way?

Souness can talk a lot of rubbish but his assessment of our midfield on Sunday was bang on. Mourinho's either got a blind spot the size of a small continent or he's stubborn beyond belief and refuses to change. Neither scenario reflects favourably on him.

Just look at who he was fighting with last season, shaw, pogba and martial, and was hellbent on playing young, fellaini, and Sanchez has much has he could begging Fellaini to stay, look at the age differences. He’s been a lost cause since Sevilla in March.

But what this club will do they will hang onto mourinho, take the fans money, won’t sack him because it cost them such a horrible sum of 25 M which is walking around money for this club, the football gets worse and worse getting some lucky wins, when he’s sacked all the available options are taken by other clubs, and we will get conte, just like the other appointments.

The crazy old man will continue to play lukaku, matic, fellaini when fit, smalling, young, Valencia and Jones if giving him the chance, he can have has much money has he likes, he will continue to pick those slow or either ageing players who should be playing for mid table or MLS clubs by now, but they still here. We are in 2018 and we could play a 2012 back line of DDG, Valencia, Jones, smalling, young, and we are in 2018

 

[Treble]

Has it? Pep had arguably the best side in history and his tactics were no different to what he applies TO City today.

He still lost La Liga to Jose though. Yeah Jose had Ronaldo but Pep has Messi & Co. too.

Of course it has. Stats show that football is becoming more dynamic by the year. Every year players cover more distance and make more sprints than the previous one. Changes in dynamics and pressing patterns require new tactical systems. Old ones do not work as well as previously. It doesn't matter that Barca were great then. The other teams against which Real played didn't have a tactical answer to Jose and were a bit too open. Things changed the next season though when they were happy to sit back and Real's counter attacking style didn't work so well.

Guardiola has evolved too. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to win 100 pts with a team that is clearly inferior to Barca regarding individuals. He relied on Sterling last year, not on Messi. City use the flanks more than Barca. Barca 09-11 didn't have proper wingers. City seem better at fast transitions and counter attacking too. It's a bit of a myth that Guardiola knows only one way to play the game. Possession is central to his tactics but you can have a variety of approaches within possession based football.

 

[Random Task]

I said we played shit and that's down to him, that's not defending him. City example was of a big club loosing to smaller one. You could probably substitute it with Pool or Chelsea or other big ones i don't care.

Mourinho set us up to lose the game.

A midfield consisting of Matic, Herrera and Fellaini doesn't have the pace, the movement or the creative spark to compete with Bernado Silva, Fernandinho and David Silva. The very moment he picked the team was the very moment he conceded defeat. It was a case of damage limitation from the outset.

This is how far we have come as a team and a club under this mans leadership, yet still, somehow, he has your support. This whole situation defies belief.

 

[ZAGREB RED]

Mourinho set us up to lose the game.

A midfield consisting of Matic, Herrera and Fellaini doesn't have the pace, the movement or the creative spark to compete with Bernado Silva, Fernandinho and David Silva. The very moment he picked the team was the very moment he conceded defeat. It was a case of damage limitation from the outset.

This is how far we have come as a team and a club under this mans leadership, yet still, somehow, he has your support. This whole situation defies belief.

This.
Mourinho talks about United almost over-achieving by finishing second last year and the limit of his ambition this season seems to be scraping into the top four. His deluded ramblings are an an embarrassment to himself and just seem to get worse as time goes on.
People talk about his past record - Gary Neville did recently - and it is highly impressive, but I think he is rapidly becoming yesterday's man. Everyone has a shelf-life and I think Mourinho's has expired.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

He's been average for Spurs. If you've watched them this season you'll know. And with age and his injury record it wasn't worth it.

question was if he was better than what we have not if he was worth what spurs were asking for?

The club's explanation for not signing a better CB was cos they did not think those CBs (for various reasons) were worth their asking prices and the only ones we could get were comparable to our 5th choice CB i.e. we cant sign anyone better than jones!

 

[GreenHeron]

question was if he was better than what we have not if he was worth what Spurs were asking for?

The club's explanation for not signing a better CB was cos they did not think those CBs (for various reasons) were worth their asking prices and the only ones we could get were comparable to our 5th choice CB i.e. we cant sign anyone better than Jones!

Those talking about our failure to sign a centre half should also consider that Mourinho wanted to sign a left back to replace Shaw and a winger to replace Martial, both late 20s/early 30s, and the board blocked those as well.

And a good job they did in my opinion. They got 2 out of the 3 calls right, but got it wrong on the centre half.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Dybala, Bale and Varane straight off the top of my head.
As we were linked to well over 60 players in the summer, who the heck knows what the club really pursued.

We should be linked to Messi and Neymar as well while we're at it,hell some of us thought Ronnie was finally 'coming home'. There's no one that deluded to even thing we stood a chance signing any of them, not Ed,Jose or you as none of them want to come here in the first place. If Jose's ability to get us to play good football is totally reliant on getting unattainable players then we might as well sack him now and get someone who knows how to build a team without chasing after lost causes, like 99.9% of managers. For all the talk about Pep spending gazillion dollars his attack consist of 30-50m players some who I barely knew before they got here, but fecking Jose now needs Dybala and Bale. How have Liverpool,Chelsea and Spurs survived without being able to sign Dybala and Bale? It's not like we haven't spent $75m on a bloody striker. Now Jose suddenly wanted Dybala despite he himself saying he didn't need attackers, seems you guys are now tired of the Maguire/Toby crap and now uprading it to 'he wanted strikers too'.

 

[Red_toad]

We should be linked to Messi and Neymar as well while we're at it,hell some of us thought Ronnie was finally 'coming home'. There's no one that deluded to even thing we stood a chance signing any of them, not Ed,Jose or you as none of them want to come here in the first place. If Jose's ability to get us to play good football is totally reliant on getting unattainable players then we might as well sack him now and get someone who knows how to build a team without chasing after lost causes, like 99.9% of managers. For all the talk about Pep spending gazillion dollars his attack consist of 30-50m players some who I barely knew before they got here, but fecking Jose now needs Dybala and Bale. How have Liverpool,Chelsea and Spurs survived without being able to sign Dybala and Bale? It's not like we haven't spent $75m on a bloody striker. Now Jose suddenly wanted Dybala despite he himself saying he didn't need attackers, seems you guys are now tired of the Maguire/Toby crap and now uprading it to 'he wanted strikers too'.

Bit of a rant you’re having there. Simply answering a question. I wasn’t asked attainable players, nor was I stating we’d have signed any of them.
Not sure who these you guys are? I think the club should sack Jose. But that means nothing as they haven’t. So if they wish to retain him they need to back him.
Seems anyone who doesnt go on a rant about Jose is called one of them or those people. What a sad state of affairs.

 

[Mcking]

question was if he was better than what we have not if he was worth what Spurs were asking for?

The club's explanation for not signing a better CB was cos they did not think those CBs (for various reasons) were worth their asking prices and the only ones we could get were comparable to our 5th choice CB i.e. we cant sign anyone better than Jones!

Sanchez was supposed to be better than what we have until he turned up and the rest is history. Alderweireld would make little difference in this team if we had signed him. And for the price, age and quality, it was simply not worth it.

 

[ash_86]

Mourinho set us up to lose the game.

A midfield consisting of Matic, Herrera and Fellaini doesn't have the pace, the movement or the creative spark to compete with Bernado Silva, Fernandinho and David Silva. The very moment he picked the team was the very moment he conceded defeat. It was a case of damage limitation from the outset.

This is how far we have come as a team and a club under this mans leadership, yet still, somehow, he has your support. This whole situation defies belief.

Are you quoting the wrong person? I was not talking about the city game.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Bit of a rant you’re having there. Simply answering a question. I wasn’t asked attainable players, nor was I stating we’d have signed any of them.
Not sure who these you guys are? I think the club should sack Jose. But that means nothing as they haven’t. So if they wish to retain him they need to back him.
Seems anyone who doesnt go on a rant about Jose is called one of them or those people. What a sad state of affairs.

Sorry if that came off strong,you are definitely not one of the loonies. As for this back him or sack him thing I keep hearing what do you mean in this context? What is your definition of us 'backing' him this summer,getting him Bale,Dybala and Varane and since we couldn't that means we didn't 'back' him?

 

[Red_toad]

Sorry if that came off strong,you are definitely not one of the loonies. As for this back him or sack him thing I keep hearing what do you mean in this context? What is your definition of us 'backing' him this summer,getting him Bale,Dybala and Varane and since we couldn't that means we didn't 'back' him?

He wanted an unnamed defender. The club (as they wished to continue his tenure) should have pushed the boat out.

 

[Foxbatt]

High press or low press. We do not press at all. We let teams waltz through our forwards, our midfield and our defence. That is the problem. Not the question of pressing.

 

[fellaini's barber]

He wanted an unnamed defender. The club (as they wished to continue his tenure) should have pushed the boat out.

Like we did for Matic who is now looking like a waste after being good for half a season? Or most of his other signings?

 

[fellaini's barber]

High press or low press. We do not press at all. We let teams waltz through our forwards, our midfield and our defence. That is the problem. Not the question of pressing.

It really is what I hate most about us. We just all bloody stand there waiting for the opposition to gift us the ball. And when we finally get it we can't string 3 passes together. It's been driving me nuts since last season. But yea if we get Maguire it will be a thing of the past.

 

[Canagel]

question was if he was better than what we have not if he was worth what Spurs were asking for?

The club's explanation for not signing a better CB was cos they did not think those CBs (for various reasons) were worth their asking prices and the only ones we could get were comparable to our 5th choice CB i.e. we cant sign anyone better than Jones!

No.
It wouldn't have been a massive upgrade. Same with McGuire, Mina, Boateng and all the other average defenders we got linked with.

 

[Xixak17]

The main thing I blame the board/Woodward for is hiring Jose in the first place. We desperately need some kind of philosophy at this club. A United manager should meet some basic requirements. Barcelona and Bayern have criteria like these that they use to evaluate a potential manager's candidacy.

1.) Plays a fun style of attacking football
2.) Actively seeks to promote and develop youth
3.) Has a winning track record or demonstrated ability to win

A manager should meet these 3 requirements or they should not get the United job. Moyes met zero, Van Gaal arguably met all three when he was hired, Mourinho only met the 3rd one when he was hired and now meets none of them.

If a manager stops meeting more than one of these while in the job he should be sacked. Mourinho has to go and we need to go get a manager who will play attacking football, develop young talent and win football matches.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

No.
It wouldn't have been a massive upgrade. Same with McGuire, Mina, Boateng and all the other average defenders we got linked with.

Saying he wouldn't have been a massive upgrade implicitly admits he is an upgrade, just not massive i.e. better than what we currently had. Same with Maguire and Boateng. Even Mina would be better than Jones cos at least he is more likely to be available.

Those that are massive upgrades were considered unattainable. So our club's solution is to do nothing and keep with our mediocre group but its Mourinho's fault that we are leaking goals.

We either cough up the money for top quality or live with what mediocrity brings.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Sanchez was supposed to be better than what we have until he turned up and the rest is history. Alderweireld would make little difference in this team if we had signed him. And for the price, age and quality, it was simply not worth it.

He is better than what we had, his experience would have brought some organization to our defence and helped the development of Bailly, Lindelof and possibly tuanzebe.

Yes we can argue about his worth, depending on what we could have gotten him for and the risk of losing out to others when he becomes cheaper or possibly extends with spurs. If the asking price for Toby was truly inflated, then we should have been able to sign a cheaper but similar quality alternative or get better quality for same price. in reality we got nothing.

Those players will not get cheaper unless they start to decline in value. Selling clubs dictate market prices not buyers. Like Mourinho said, Pogba is looking quite cheap by current prices.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Those talking about our failure to sign a centre half should also consider that Mourinho wanted to sign a left back to replace Shaw and a winger to replace Martial, both late 20s/early 30s, and the board blocked those as well.

And a good job they did in my opinion. They got 2 out of the 3 calls right, but got it wrong on the centre half.

I disagree cos Shaw is still not good enough imo.

We have already spent two seasons waiting for shaw recover and to live up to his initial potential.

Even if we wanted to keep Shaw given his age, a new LB should have still been brought in and not have to rely on ashley young who for all his industry, like Valencia, is not a true LB/RB.

 

[Red_toad]

Like we did for Matic who is now looking like a waste after being good for half a season? Or most of his other signings?

The club continues to employ him, yet they’re unwilling to purchase the players he says he needs to succeed.
Like I said they need to either buy the players or sack the manager. Doing neither isn’t going to bring any positive outcomes.
Everyone is blaming certain players or Jose and it’s all just getting silly. People need to step back and see the bigger picture. If the owners have no vision on how they want the club ran, then we’ll just rotate managers and have huge ongoing transfer windows. It’ll be a never ending war in here!

 

[Reddy Rederson]

These Jose mentalists almost had me believe Pep has signed a full team, decided they were crap and bought a new one with the way they moan about Pep being allowed to 'replace' his mistakes while Jose hasn't. Till you look it up and find only Nolito and Bravo, who both cost about €30m or something combined.

But poor Jose who has already replaced a $30m dud with a 400k/w dud, needs to be allowed to replace Bailly(30m), Lindelof(30m), even Matic(40m), Fred(50m) etc to catch up.

Woodward made those deals, not Jose. Direct your anger to the right place.

 

[fellaini's barber]

The club continues to employ him, yet they’re unwilling to purchase the players he says he needs to succeed.
Like I said they need to either buy the players or sack the manager. Doing neither isn’t going to bring any positive outcomes.
Everyone is blaming certain players or Jose and it’s all just getting silly. People need to step back and see the bigger picture. If the owners have no vision on how they want the club ran, then we’ll just rotate managers and have huge ongoing transfer windows. It’ll be a never ending war in here!

Mate, like I said in the first post I replied this is not his first season,its his third and he's signed 10+ players worth $400m without having to sell anyone. Do you know any other manager apart from Pep who has had this much 'backing'?. Pep lost out on Jorginho,Sanchez and Fred, Poch signed feck all but they seem to be managing just fine.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Woodward made those deals, not Jose. Direct your anger to the right place.

Who said I was angry at any deal, I'm angry our football is trash and worse than Bournemouth though, should I direct that to the Glazers?

 

[fellaini's barber]

Woodward made those deals, not Jose. Direct your anger to the right place.

Who said I was angry at any deal, I'm angry our football is trash and worse than Bournemouth though, should I direct that to the Glazers?

 

[JohnnyLaw]

Woodward made those deals, not Jose. Direct your anger to the right place.

I've heard this attitude a few times now, what on earth is this?

Mourinho obviously asked for those players. You think that Woodward was drooling over the proposition of buying the likes of Bailly, Fred, Matic and Lindelöf? Most likely he had absolutely no clue who they were at the time we signed them.

Whatever Woodward payed for them is irrelevant, most of those players wouldn't have lived up to a fee of 15-20 million the way they've played under José. We clearly have a set budget anyway of what we can and cannot pay, don't you people think that Mourinho would be involved in planning for which positions/signings would take priority over others?

 

[fellaini's barber]

I've heard this attitude a few times now, what on earth is this?

Mourinho obviously asked for those players. You think that Woodward was drooling over the proposition of buying the likes of Bailly, Fred, Matic and Lindelöf? Most likely he had absolutely no clue who they were at the time we signed them.

Whatever Woodward payed for them is irrelevant, most of those players wouldn't have lived up to a fee of 15-20 million the way they've played under José. We clearly have a set budget anyway of what we can and cannot pay, don't you people think that Mourinho would be involved in planning for which positions/signings would take priority over others?

Don't even bother with this guy.

 

[el3mel]

I've heard this attitude a few times now, what on earth is this?

Mourinho obviously asked for those players. You think that Woodward was drooling over the proposition of buying the likes of Bailly, Fred, Matic and Lindelöf? Most likely he had absolutely no clue who they were at the time we signed them.

Whatever Woodward payed for them is irrelevant, most of those players wouldn't have lived up to a fee of 15-20 million the way they've played under José. We clearly have a set budget anyway of what we can and cannot pay, don't you people think that Mourinho would be involved in planning for which positions/signings would take priority over others?

You're missing an element in transfers which is the scouts job. Not each transfer comes with the manager scouting them themselves. It makes far more logical sense that the likes of Bailly, Lindelof and Fred were scouted and chosen by scouts and Mourinho said "Ok, go for it". Matic was his signings I agree, but it's not as simple as "manager or CEO" in choosing the targets.

 

[Red_toad]

Mate, like I said in the first post I replied this is not his first season,its his third and he's signed 10+ players worth $400m without having to sell anyone. Do you know any other manager apart from Pep who has had this much 'backing'?. Pep lost out on Jorginho,Sanchez and Fred, Poch signed feck all but they seem to be managing just fine.

He's made his case for further transfers numerous times. What's happened over the last few years or what the club has spent means nothing as long as they continue to employ him.
As for selling the club actively tried to offload Rojo, Darmian, sold Blind, Schlinderlin Depay etc etc etc.
Plus hate to say it but Jose has been way way more successful during his time at United than Poch has been in his entire managerial career.
United have way more issues than just who manages the first team. I cannot honestly think of a single manager who'd come here and turn this squad around. We'd still need major transfer investment and still have lots of players on fat contracts taking up spaces in the squad. It's a never ending circle.

 

[Borden]

Woodward made those deals, not Jose. Direct your anger to the right place.

I’m sure Woody decided all by himself to fork out a fortune on the likes of Lindelof, Bailly, Matic and Fred.

 

[Mcking]

He is better than what we had, his experience would have brought some organization to our defence and helped the development of Bailly, Lindelof and possibly Tuanzebe.

Yes we can argue about his worth, depending on what we could have gotten him for and the risk of losing out to others when he becomes cheaper or possibly extends with Spurs. If the asking price for Toby was truly inflated, then we should have been able to sign a cheaper but similar quality alternative or get better quality for same price. in reality we got nothing.

Those players will not get cheaper unless they start to decline in value. Selling clubs dictate market prices not buyers. Like Mourinho said, Pogba is looking quite cheap by current prices.

You don't really know why we didn't sign a CB. We don't have a DOF who makes signings, so the manager is the one that have to identify them. It gets tough for the ones making the negotiations if the targets cannot be gotten for a reasonable price. Maybe the prices quoted by the selling clubs were too high, they didn't want to join or the targets might be poor value for money, all factors considered. Sanchez, Matic were supposed to be better than what we had, but it didn't turn out that way and now we have to replace them, and we don't have the luxury of being patient with them or trying to groom them because of their age. It would be the same with Alderweireld (with Willian, with Perisic) and his experience would count for nothing if he does not really perform to the expected extent. The quality of the player in question also does not warrant paying such a high fee at that age and especially when he could be gotten for a cut-price in 12 months.
The club cannot keep spending blindly on a manager that might be an also ran. He won't be here forever, so the club have to think about the future too.