The [non] use of Van de Beek - Ole's player?

GBBQ

Full Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2012
Messages
4,160
Location
Ireland
Could be fitness, could be getting used to the style of play or working alongside Bruno. Could be that he was bought a season early to replace Pogba. Could be that he's homesick. Who knows. What we do know is that VDB said that Ole was the one who convinced him to join and had followed him since his days as a manager for Molde. So i don't buy that the signing was foisted upon him or that he's surplus to requirements.

Lets see the lay of the land at the end of the season but I don't think that people outside the team should be commenting publicly on whether or not he made the right decision to join.
 

Stretender

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
582
Great post, shows that neither Donny or Ole would be worried about him starting, its all fan pressure and some fans thinking they know a player better than the manager and trying to play a player against his strengths on the wing.

Ole has shown, he can introduce players into teams well.




This literally shows a total lack of footballing knowledge. It is fans like these who see nothing other than Ole out that are part of the problem at the football club.

I get it, you do not like the manager, support the team properly at least. It is clear that you want us to fail just so you can say "I knew he is a shit manager".
I don't want United to fail, we are failing already. We are 15th. Do you think that's acceptable?

I have seen enough of Ole and his counter attacking football to tell me he is not the way forward here.

You can pretend to be a top red but it's a fact that he is not producing the required results here is he?

We came top 4 last season, Spurs and Arsenal under perfomed. Have you seen anything in our football that suggests we will finish above Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea? That is the main worry for me.
 

Gasolin

Full Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
5,126
Location
NYC
Having a mare for what? I have put my points accross whether you agree with it or not is not my problem.

Which position was Pogba bought for? Does he play in that position all the time?

I can tell you I don't know which position Pogba was bought for but he plays mostly for United.

I don't have to repeat myself but Van De Beek will be better for the team in the positions played by McTominnay, Mata and James.

If you seriously think those 3 are better than Van De Beek, just stop watching football.
It is a problem if they are based on nonsensical points presented as undisputable facts.

Pogba plays as an 8. For France, and for United. That's his best position right now, unless you want to go back to a left sided CM a la Juventus with 5 midfielders.
He loves the role, he has won a WC with it. The fact he doesn't play is purely down to what he says himself, and same for Ole: physical intensity. He needs to build up his intensity so that we can use him there without getting overran in the midfield.

You compare VdB to McTominay, Mata and James.

Scott: Is a DM/CM with defensive duties, was tried as a 6 to replace Matic and couldn't reproduce his tactical awareness with the defense splitting the CBs, and still has difficulties to pass the ball forward when he is not instructed to (lack of initiative, inuitive thoughts). We solved it by slotting him on the right side of the CBs instead of splitting them as we do with Matic. That allows Scott to be a little more further down on the pitch, it gives him time to face the ball and pass forward. As a result, this improved our progression of the ball in recent games. Alternatively, it helps to push up AWB to put him in a position to challenge the other side full backs.

Mata: He's 33, and now plays on the wings. His current role is a free role with duties to come in the middle and distribute the game, especially providing the right side to left side passes that allow us to go and challenge the GK for the top right corner. You can see how Rashford would drift on the left and Mata passes in diagonal. One control and we are in position to score. Martial would play similarly, as he also likes to drift. In the middle, the front line is expected to provide runs for Mata to distribute when it's not Bruno.

James: Deployed as a RW but his role is a LW. We have repositioned him on the left, he is asked to carry the ball whenever he can, otherwise, he is expected to run forward by providing options for our passes.

None of those roles correspond to VdB's role, neither do they correspond to the roles he wants to play. He has always played centrally, and he said it himself, he wants to be in the box, he wants to be the #10!!! Also, he has played wide once in his whole career. In fact, in his 265 games for clubs and country, he has played even as RM or LM (on the sides) once! Once!!!

The guy is not going to play in lieu of James or Mata as it's not his position on the field even, and he does not wish to be a DM, so he's not replacing Scott.
His competition is Bruno Fernandes. He either beat him, or he tries to play as much as possible by providing rotation for this role that is critical for us as of now.

Furthermore, as the thread was explaining, we play more games than Ajax in general. Over 3 seasons, Ajax played 138 games for 826 days, United played 171 games for 835 days. That's 33 games more for only 9 more days.

It means that we play between 55 games to 60 games each year in function of our cup results. Bruno is probably starting around 40, the rest can be VdB. Also, minute wise, he has played 50% of the time Bruno has played. We are getting him up to speed and it's up to him to show us he deserves to play. Not the other way around.
 

united_99

Takes pleasure in other people's pain
Joined
Jul 4, 2012
Messages
5,907
Ajax has played in the Semis of the CL much later than us. They are a very good side. Or were last season before the sold most of their players. Dutch players from their top clubs can go and play in the Serie A or tha La Liga without trying to be "broken in". We are not talking about a top club in England anyhow. There is no way DVB is a lesser player than some of the players currently playing or starting for United. Ziyech played more than DVB in the two matches he played. DVB may have over all more because he has been coming on as a sub all the time. He has even scored a goal for United.
Others have already corrected your bizarre points. So just to add to the CL semi Ajax reached. Great achievement for them, but doesn’t matter at all in terms of VdB starting for us. Equally the amount of European cups Ajax have won in the past is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
Otherwise as Spurs reached a CL final only a couple of years ago they should be seen as a better side now than all teams which haven’t reached a CL final since?
And as Milan have 7 European Cup wins they should be better now than any other team bar RM?
 

GenZRed

Full Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2019
Messages
563
I don't know what Patrica Evra's issue is with VdB. Everyone knew that our midfield needed greater strength in depth. If anyone thinks that play Fred and Scott for 30 plus games a season can result in a Premiership title charge then they are navie. Those two players are efficient, yes. They aren't elite level midfielders though.

Edit: Matic is a good DM, not a creative force in midfield. So not fair to compare him to DvB.
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
3,206
Location
Ireland
I don't want United to fail, we are failing already. We are 15th. Do you think that's acceptable?

I have seen enough of Ole and his counter attacking football to tell me he is not the way forward here.

You can pretend to be a top red but it's a fact that he is not producing the required results here is he?

We came top 4 last season, Spurs and Arsenal under perfomed. Have you seen anything in our football that suggests we will finish above Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea? That is the main worry for me.
What a god awful post. Yes we're 15th but we are only 5 games in and have a game in hand. If we don't get top 4 this season we can talk. I expect something resembling a title challenge next season.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
6,399
I don't want United to fail, we are failing already. We are 15th. Do you think that's acceptable?

I have seen enough of Ole and his counter attacking football to tell me he is not the way forward here.

You can pretend to be a top red but it's a fact that he is not producing the required results here is he?

We came top 4 last season, Spurs and Arsenal under perfomed. Have you seen anything in our football that suggests we will finish above Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea? That is the main worry for me.
Is the season finished? Have we played 38 games? Have we played the same number of games as everyone else?

Counter attack football gets you 3rd? If we won the league playing counter attacking football I would not give a feck.

I am not pretending anything, his target was top 4 last season, he produced that no?

We came top 4 because teams with better managers under performed? So if we won the league when other teams underperfomed would it mean we dont deserve the league?
 

Gasolin

Full Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
5,126
Location
NYC
I dont' know what Patrica Evra's issue is with VdB. Everyone knew that our midfield needed greater strength in depth. If anyone thinks that play Fred and Scott for 30 plus games a season can result in a Premiership title charge then they are navie. Those two players are efficient, yes. They aren't elite level midfielders though.
Evra has already clarified that what he meant by "We do not need him" does not literally mean, we do not need him.
He respects Fred, Scott, Matic, they always deliver when we need to play big games.
VdB is not better than Pogba, and he's different.
Also he's not better than Bruno.

He's a good player, but he didn't start. But of course, we need players on the bench.
He does feel sad for the player, but he trusts Ole, VdB needs to trust Ole, and he will get chances to prove he deserves to play for Manchester United.

So we move on.

 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
79,783
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
Don't start me on the money bit. No club has 40 million to waste and just treat it like its 40 pounds change from buying a replica shirt in a club shop.

To suggest 40 million is nothing is simply a symptom of the football fan of today. We couldn't sell Smalling to Roma on the cheap, refused to sell Romero on the cheap and refused to pay Dortmund 120 million for Sancho and you get people saying 40 million is nothing. That is an argument of a spoilt fan who thinks all this is football manager.

Secondly, Van De Beek is a player who is intelligent enough to play different positions. He is not a limited specialist footballer and that's what sets him apart.

If Van De Beek could not play where Mata, McTominnay and James were playing then he is of no use here. My point is that in all those 3 positions Van De Beek is a better player.

If Ole is struggling to play Van De Beek, how would he have fitted in Sancho among Greenwood, Martial and Rashford? To me he is a simpleton of a manager and hopefully this is his last season here. He is one dimensional and that is not good enough for Manchester United.
And yet plenty of them do every season. You're an idealist man, time to open up your eyes. Our club has wasted so much money on so many players over the years, 40m is nothing in the grand scheme of things. VDB will get his opportunities and he will need to grasp them when the time is right.
The season is barely starting and I still don't understand why any of you people are blowing things way out of proportion like this :lol: Talk about a bunch of real drama queens...
 

James Peril

Full Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
2,826
I find this a bit ridiculous, we haven’t played a lot of games yet, and the defenders of our manager say we are doing pretty well too? I would say our position in the league is a disgrace, but VdB is probably not the solution to anything right now.

Perhaps he just isn’t as good as they hoped he was? Which is intirely fair, he does come from a Mickey Mouse-league and the transition is huge. Time will show, he’ll get his chances. Certainly no need to create threads or articles about this, it’s nonsense as Keane would put it. We’ve played only five games in the league and he was never good enough to challenge as a starter from day 1.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
6,399
If Van De Beek could not play where Mata, McTominnay and James were playing then he is of no use here. My point is that in all those 3 positions Van De Beek is a better player.

If Ole is struggling to play Van De Beek, how would he have fitted in Sancho among Greenwood, Martial and Rashford? To me he is a simpleton of a manager and hopefully this is his last season here. He is one dimensional and that is not good enough for Manchester United.
I asked you this yesterday, I will ask you once more. Show me evidence of how VDB is better on the right and left when he has never played there?

Let me tell you how he would have fitted him in... Martial has a red card, he would have played Rashford top, Greenwood right and Sancho top.
 

R77

Full Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2017
Messages
381
Good thread, that. Thanks. Should be stickied at the top of every page.

Have a great respect for any one trying to dispense reason in Ole-related threads from either side at this point. You're all correct one way or another. You can admire the semblance of 'winning mentality' from fans and all, but it seems many people just aren't really paying attention. It's all been said/written a million times and we live in the age of information.
 

Marcus

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 1999
Messages
4,078
Ole himself spent a lot of time on United's bench watching games and knowing how to make an impact. I think he would expect the same of DVB. Which is not a bad thing.
 

monosierra

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
297
It's a non-issue outside those hot-take merchants trying to grab a headline. He only just got here and competition is fierce. Whether he plays at #10 or deeper, he will get his chances as the season progresses - we all saw how knackered Bruno got in run-in last season. Heck, the other attacking midfield spot is up for grabs too.
 

RUCK4444

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
3,849
Location
FIFA Headquarters
Having a mare for what? I have put my points accross whether you agree with it or not is not my problem.

Which position was Pogba bought for? Does he play in that position all the time?

I can tell you I don't know which position Pogba was bought for but he plays mostly for United.

I don't have to repeat myself but Van De Beek will be better for the team in the positions played by McTominnay, Mata and James.

If you seriously think those 3 are better than Van De Beek, just stop watching football.
That last line sums your posts up nicely.

Your sentence before it asking him to be played on the wing to replace Mata and James is, well, I don’t have a response for it really...

As many have pointed out VDB is a no 10, so he won’t be putting shifts in on the wing (sadly for you) anytime soon.

Likewise, whatever your thoughts on McTominay, him and Fred are the most secure base for us in the tricky games. Scott is much more combative and natural in that position than VDB (shock horror, because the latter is a no 10)

Pogba plays the same position for France so it’s again a more natural position for him than it is for VDB. Not to mention he’s our most expensive player.

The penny will drop eventually, keep going though.
 

Ferguson’s Hairdryer

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
72
Considering how easily we got him I honestly doubt that claim, not that VDB is a bad player by any means.
I suppose if COVID 19 hadn’t had happened we’d be looking at him playing for Real Madrid and wondering why United never sign midfielders like that.
 

Red4Life_#7

Full Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2014
Messages
825
It is a problem if they are based on nonsensical points presented as undisputable facts.

Pogba plays as an 8. For France, and for United. That's his best position right now, unless you want to go back to a left sided CM a la Juventus with 5 midfielders.
He loves the role, he has won a WC with it. The fact he doesn't play is purely down to what he says himself, and same for Ole: physical intensity. He needs to build up his intensity so that we can use him there without getting overran in the midfield.

You compare VdB to McTominay, Mata and James.

Scott: Is a DM/CM with defensive duties, was tried as a 6 to replace Matic and couldn't reproduce his tactical awareness with the defense splitting the CBs, and still has difficulties to pass the ball forward when he is not instructed to (lack of initiative, inuitive thoughts). We solved it by slotting him on the right side of the CBs instead of splitting them as we do with Matic. That allows Scott to be a little more further down on the pitch, it gives him time to face the ball and pass forward. As a result, this improved our progression of the ball in recent games. Alternatively, it helps to push up AWB to put him in a position to challenge the other side full backs.

Mata: He's 33, and now plays on the wings. His current role is a free role with duties to come in the middle and distribute the game, especially providing the right side to left side passes that allow us to go and challenge the GK for the top right corner. You can see how Rashford would drift on the left and Mata passes in diagonal. One control and we are in position to score. Martial would play similarly, as he also likes to drift. In the middle, the front line is expected to provide runs for Mata to distribute when it's not Bruno.

James: Deployed as a RW but his role is a LW. We have repositioned him on the left, he is asked to carry the ball whenever he can, otherwise, he is expected to run forward by providing options for our passes.

None of those roles correspond to VdB's role, neither do they correspond to the roles he wants to play. He has always played centrally, and he said it himself, he wants to be in the box, he wants to be the #10!!! Also, he has played wide once in his whole career. In fact, in his 265 games for clubs and country, he has played even as RM or LM (on the sides) once! Once!!!

The guy is not going to play in lieu of James or Mata as it's not his position on the field even, and he does not wish to be a DM, so he's not replacing Scott.
His competition is Bruno Fernandes. He either beat him, or he tries to play as much as possible by providing rotation for this role that is critical for us as of now.

Furthermore, as the thread was explaining, we play more games than Ajax in general. Over 3 seasons, Ajax played 138 games for 826 days, United played 171 games for 835 days. That's 33 games more for only 9 more days.

It means that we play between 55 games to 60 games each year in function of our cup results. Bruno is probably starting around 40, the rest can be VdB. Also, minute wise, he has played 50% of the time Bruno has played. We are getting him up to speed and it's up to him to show us he deserves to play. Not the other way around.
Someone speaking sense!! Thank you!! You know your team :)
 

Hugh Jass

Shave Dass
Joined
Apr 16, 2016
Messages
6,447
What a god awful post. Yes we're 15th but we are only 5 games in and have a game in hand. If we don't get top 4 this season we can talk. I expect something resembling a title challenge next season.
Agreed.
 

Red4Life_#7

Full Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2014
Messages
825
The media are trying to create a narrative to sell papers.

' Van de Beek has played just 59 minutes of Premier League football since joining from Ajax for £39m in the summer '

He joined the club 3 weeks ago fgs!! He needs time to adapt and also play his way into the team of top mids. Pogba and Bruno are his competition, they would start for most teams around the world including the elite sides.

Good signing as he brings depth and something different. We can already see how quickly he moves the ball (1 touch) and presses.
 

R77

Full Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2017
Messages
381
'The topic at the moment is Donny van de Beek'
“When players come into a new team, a new league it’s always going to be a time that he adapts.

When Donny has played, he’s played really well. It says a lot about our depth of quality in the squad that we don’t have to use him every game. It also says everything about our ambitions.

Donny is going to play a big big part this year. I know at the moment the topic is Donny van de Beek.

It’s nice for some players and commentators and redcafe posters to have a little go, but you have to know that you don’t have to start the first three games to be a very important player in the squad. He’s going to be important, don’t worry about that.”
*he may not have said the redcafe posters bit
McTominay: No panic over Van de Beek
“You see Donny come into training every day with a big smile on his face. I’m so confident Donny will become a big figure in this team.

Along with Alex and Edinson they have lifted the dressing room. You can see that with how Alex played in Paris and what Donny’s done when he’s been on the pitch. There’s no panic with Donny. Let him settle into the league, settle into his new house and the season.”
There you go folks. He's obviously telling porkies somewhere ;)

Come back in a couple of weeks.
 

tomaldinho1

Full Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
5,114
Such a non issue that it annoys me we've even responded with more than a couple of words.

I also think Ole should steer clear of any comparisons between a young talented CM, who 100% wants as much first team football as possible and his role as a player at United. As much as I love Ole, no player wants to be known as a super sub & can only think this will just lead to more headlines about VdB's future being on the bench and then some Dutch pundits will pile in again.
 

Champagne Football

Full Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Messages
3,691
Location
El Beatle
The overdramatic reaction from the media to Van de Beek not playing is the classic anti-Utd agenda with sections of the press. Nobody is complaining about Bale sitting on the bench at Tottenham, or Minamino mostly on the bench at Liverpool.

Van de Beek will play a huge part soon. Ole will lose his job if he concedes cheap goals in the next games and loses. He needs Fred and McT in there for now until we get some easier games and can slowly integrate Van de Beek.
 

mu4c_20le

Full Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
18,295
There you go folks. He's obviously telling porkies somewhere ;)

Come back in a couple of weeks.
Straight from the BVB playbook of asking random players for their backing.

VdB to Madrid 2021
 

Renegade

Full Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2009
Messages
4,305
Evra has already clarified that what he meant by "We do not need him" does not literally mean, we do not need him.
He respects Fred, Scott, Matic, they always deliver when we need to play big games.
VdB is not better than Pogba, and he's different.
Also he's not better than Bruno.

He's a good player, but he didn't start. But of course, we need players on the bench.
He does feel sad for the player, but he trusts Ole, VdB needs to trust Ole, and he will get chances to prove he deserves to play for Manchester United.

So we move on.

Evra seems to have forgotten he spent the first 6 months of his United career in the stands and on the bench.

His made this a bigger issue than it needs to be. How have people forgotten how many games Lingard/Andreas played last season.

Man City had Bernado when David Silva and KDB were starters.

Liverpool just signed Thiago For 30m while having Henderson,Keita and Gini as they CM options.
 

reddevil80

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Messages
539
Imo, Evra hasn't said we don't need vdB as a negative, he's just highlighted we needed other areas strengthened first.

Plus the vdB on the bench thing?; again, only my opinion, but it will be making Donny hungrier to get on the pitch and contribute positively and help create a more cohesive, while operationally different, team ethic.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
53,708
I can't help thinking that there's plenty of agendas going on in the VDB case. For example Ole doesn't want to expose the fact that his defence is crap, not after spending 145m on it. Which explains why Telles (attacking wingback) and VDB aren't playing that much. VDB's team are causing issues, which in my opinion, are a bit premature and make the player look bad. Meanwhile the likes of Evra would rather see VDB on the bench as that means more game time to Pogba. Pogba is for Evra what Philip Nev or even worse Paul Scholes is for Gary Neville. He literally loves the guy.

VDB will get games. Pogba will soon feck off to Spain or Italy, Matic is growing old, Bruno will need to rest and soon enough United will finally buy that quality CB that will be able to carry Maguire. That means we will be less reliant on two defensive midfielders with zero creativity. It's only a matter of time. It's a shame though as I think VDB could be an important player NOW. He might not be a mule like McT but he's quite hardworking and he compensate to that teeny weeny lack of workrate with superior technique, creativity, an eye for goal and of course football intelligence and passing ability that Savag erm McT has. It's up for Ole to notice that. He'll get there eventually.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
53,708
The overdramatic reaction from the media to Van de Beek not playing is the classic anti-Utd agenda with sections of the press. Nobody is complaining about Bale sitting on the bench at Tottenham, or Minamino mostly on the bench at Liverpool.

Van de Beek will play a huge part soon. Ole will lose his job if he concedes cheap goals in the next games and loses. He needs Fred and McT in there for now until we get some easier games and can slowly integrate Van de Beek.
Minamino is nowhere near to VDB talent while Bale is an ex player in all but name. VDB is at the cusp of greatness and yet we're playing two donkeys instead of him. I get why we're doing that but don't expect people not to ask about it
 

SoCross

Full Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Messages
2,406
Can’t believe this is a 13 page thread just 8 games into our season :lol:

Can’t this thread be revisited if it’s January and he hasn’t started a game?
 

Gasolin

Full Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
5,126
Location
NYC
I can't help thinking that there's plenty of agendas going on in the VDB case. For example Ole doesn't want to expose the fact that his defence is crap, not after spending 145m on it. Which explains why Telles (attacking wingback) and VDB aren't playing that much. VDB's team are causing issues, which in my opinion, are a bit premature and make the player look bad. Meanwhile the likes of Evra would rather see VDB on the bench as that means more game time to Pogba. Pogba is for Evra what Philip Nev or even worse Paul Scholes is for Gary Neville. He literally loves the guy.

VDB will get games. Pogba will soon feck off to Spain or Italy, Matic is growing old, Bruno will need to rest and soon enough United will finally buy that quality CB that will be able to carry Maguire. That means we will be less reliant on two defensive midfielders with zero creativity. It's only a matter of time. It's a shame though as I think VDB could be an important player NOW. He might not be a mule like McT but he's quite hardworking and he compensate to that teeny weeny lack of workrate with superior technique, creativity, an eye for goal and of course football intelligence and passing ability that Savag erm McT has. It's up for Ole to notice that. He'll get there eventually.
I give up... you won't listen to the player himself, you won't listen to Ole... it's just your fantasy about that agenda that seems to drive that narrative. Playing without a creative midfield is not the end of the world if the team is shaped in a certain way, for example, it would actually be perfect for Telles, or even AWB, who spend now a lot of time upfront. It's OK since your strong midfield without creativity will block any counter attack against us, etc... you know very well which team in the league does that exactly this way, without a creative midfield.

We can have a creative midfield, we've been trying to build one and it will come. You underestimate Pogba but him being match fit to be able to provide full intensity is going to be key for us. Don't worry about VdB not featuring right now. Ziyesh, who some view as even more talented, is not featuring right now for Chelsea. And many other players coming fresh are not featuring right away. That's OK. It took Vidic and Evra 6 months to settle in. Not everyone is Bruno, with the context to wait for Bruno (as the whole team was designed to basically wait for a 10 that can make vertical passes). It's OK. VdB will still end up being a fantastic player for us.

And I don't get that way of looking at Scott. We always have had big games player, players who do not let anything go through. Players like Park or Fletcher who have won us games by working for the team, very hard, and making us very hard to beat. Scott is of the same caliber. I am not sure why you would ignore such a big game player just because you somehow don't seem to rate him. He has flaws, and they are improving him, you will see that a lot of his games has improved gradually. Ole is someone who can spot issues and fix them. If by now, you have not seen that, that's... surprising. Anyway, stop worrying for VdB, this has been discussed and agreed with the player and he loves the idea of the challenge.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
6,399
. Not everyone is Bruno, with the context to wait for Bruno (as the whole team was designed to basically wait for a 10 that can make vertical passes). It's OK. VdB will still end up being a fantastic player for us.
The difference is that Bruno came into a team with no CAM. Donny is coming into a team that has a CAM doing well.

Some fans who cry about VDB baffle me because when Ole played Bruno, they said Bruno took him to the CL not him as a manager, so they have a pop at the manager for playing a new signing too much and blame the manager when he makes a new signing earn his place in the team.

VDB will get his chances, if he is the player we all believe he is, he wont be dropped, like all good players, you come in do your job and you wont get dropped.
 

Nou_Camp99

Full Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
5,063
Only way I see him starting a game any time soon is if Bruno is deployed as a right winger and he then takes the CAM role.

But there's Pogba too to factor in. I think he'd be next in line to that role.

Really like Donny but feel that money should have been spent on other area of the team. Just feels excessive to have him when other areas of the squad are badly lacking.
 

Snow

Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
32,094
Location
Lousy Smarch weather
Well that's how I've seen Ajax fans describe his role with at the club with their players when the press claimed he was his agent and they know much more on the subject than I do.

His actual agent said as much as well when he called him a mentor and advisor to Donny when he refuted the public reports but what do they know I suppose...
That just sound like words of respect rather that an actual description of a relationship to me.
 

Cerberus

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 10, 2014
Messages
69
Only way I see him starting a game any time soon is if Bruno is deployed as a right winger and he then takes the CAM role.

But there's Pogba too to factor in. I think he'd be next in line to that role.

Really like Donny but feel that money should have been spent on other area of the team. Just feels excessive to have him when other areas of the squad are badly lacking.
Is it truly excessive considering Pogba's probable move next summer? Van de Beek won't get a lot of starts this season, sure, but it's prudent to already have Pogba's replacement acquired before everyone goes into panic-mode next summer due to the loss of our most dynamic player. Also, what if Pogba is out injured for months at a time again and Bruno is burnt out with exhaustion? We'd effectively have no reliable playmakers left in the squad. His signing is a smart decision.
 

Okey

Full Member
Joined
May 11, 2017
Messages
1,163
This VDB issue is being blown way out of proportion. Especially with everyone knowing the kind of insanely congested season this is going to be.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
53,708
I give up... you won't listen to the player himself, you won't listen to Ole... it's just your fantasy about that agenda that seems to drive that narrative. Playing without a creative midfield is not the end of the world if the team is shaped in a certain way, for example, it would actually be perfect for Telles, or even AWB, who spend now a lot of time upfront. It's OK since your strong midfield without creativity will block any counter attack against us, etc... you know very well which team in the league does that exactly this way, without a creative midfield.

We can have a creative midfield, we've been trying to build one and it will come. You underestimate Pogba but him being match fit to be able to provide full intensity is going to be key for us. Don't worry about VdB not featuring right now. Ziyesh, who some view as even more talented, is not featuring right now for Chelsea. And many other players coming fresh are not featuring right away. That's OK. It took Vidic and Evra 6 months to settle in. Not everyone is Bruno, with the context to wait for Bruno (as the whole team was designed to basically wait for a 10 that can make vertical passes). It's OK. VdB will still end up being a fantastic player for us.

And I don't get that way of looking at Scott. We always have had big games player, players who do not let anything go through. Players like Park or Fletcher who have won us games by working for the team, very hard, and making us very hard to beat. Scott is of the same caliber. I am not sure why you would ignore such a big game player just because you somehow don't seem to rate him. He has flaws, and they are improving him, you will see that a lot of his games has improved gradually. Ole is someone who can spot issues and fix them. If by now, you have not seen that, that's... surprising. Anyway, stop worrying for VdB, this has been discussed and agreed with the player and he loves the idea of the challenge.
Unless a manager wants out then he won't be stupid enough to air any dirty laundry in public. I remember Sir Alex going full hairdryer mode at a journalist who questioned whether JSV had a future with Man United. Less then a month later Veron was sold.

Regarding your second comment there are reasons why managers utilise a strong midfield with zero creativity

A- He lacks the quality players to play a different style of football
B- He's a defensive manager or a coward
C- He's protecting other areas of the pitch

A & B doesn't apply in our case. So C is the most obvious here. Its evident that the defence is not good enough. Ole can barely complain about that having spent 145m in that defence. So we need to protect that defence which means Fred, McT and James will be utilised more up until we bring in the personnel we need to be able to play with more creative players in. That would be understandable if we didn't had VDB. Unfortunately I can't help thinking that VDB brings enough work rate to the table NOT to be needing both Fred AND McT in

I also find fascinating about the new generation calling McT a 'big game player'. Back in my day big game players were game changers who would give the team that teeny weeny advantage against the top clubs. Baggio, Maradona and Giggs were among those big game players. People with lots of heart and zero talent to match were called water carriers (Cantona's favourite), mules or if you wish to be more political correct squad players. That's what we used to call 'big game players' such as Phil Nev, Nicky Butt and John OShea. I wonder which game these big game players had influenced so much to be called like that. It would possibly be that game vs Romania

PS AWB is a defensive fullback while Telles had played just 1 game.
 

Borys

Full Member
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
3,572
Location
Bielsko Biala, Poland
Posted in Pogba thread. I thought it's worth to watch. Harris says at one point van de Beek with Bruno ahead of someone with legs will be our best midfield, but we need to keep clean sheet for a couple of games to gain more confidence defensively. Makes sense to me. Don't think there is a place for Donny in double pivot. Same goes for Pogba really.
 
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
7,354
The overdramatic reaction from the media to Van de Beek not playing is the classic anti-Utd agenda with sections of the press. Nobody is complaining about Bale sitting on the bench at Tottenham, or Minamino mostly on the bench at Liverpool.

Van de Beek will play a huge part soon. Ole will lose his job if he concedes cheap goals in the next games and loses. He needs Fred and McT in there for now until we get some easier games and can slowly integrate Van de Beek.
the media feed on it, because our fans lap up the hysteria and negativity.

If our fanbase weren’t so reactionary, fragile and glass half empty, then it wouldn’t be a story.
 

Gasolin

Full Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
5,126
Location
NYC
Unless a manager wants out then he won't be stupid enough to air any dirty laundry in public. I remember Sir Alex going full hairdryer mode at a journalist who questioned whether JSV had a future with Man United. Less then a month later Veron was sold.

Regarding your second comment there are reasons why managers utilise a strong midfield with zero creativity

A- He lacks the quality players to play a different style of football
B- He's a defensive manager or a coward
C- He's protecting other areas of the pitch

A & B doesn't apply in our case. So C is the most obvious here. Its evident that the defence is not good enough. Ole can barely complain about that having spent 145m in that defence. So we need to protect that defence which means Fred, McT and James will be utilised more up until we bring in the personnel we need to be able to play with more creative players in. That would be understandable if we didn't had VDB. Unfortunately I can't help thinking that VDB brings enough work rate to the table NOT to be needing both Fred AND McT in

I also find fascinating about the new generation calling McT a 'big game player'. Back in my day big game players were game changers who would give the team that teeny weeny advantage against the top clubs. Baggio, Maradona and Giggs were among those big game players. People with lots of heart and zero talent to match were called water carriers (Cantona's favourite), mules or if you wish to be more political correct squad players. That's what we used to call 'big game players' such as Phil Nev, Nicky Butt and John OShea. I wonder which game these big game players had influenced so much to be called like that. It would possibly be that game vs Romania

PS AWB is a defensive fullback while Telles had played just 1 game.
I am certainly not who you would call new generation. Scott is a player for big games then, because he has the character. He’s exactly like Park and Fletcher. We don’t win many of our big games without their ability to cover for our forwards.

AWB is very high on the pitch. He’s very good with tackles and he’s very good going forward. His problem has been the progression of the ball, the transition. That’s why the team has solved it by making someone else progress the ball and that’s why we find it more often up there on the right. I’m sure you have noticed it.

I like all the big players you mentioned but for big games, we need people to cover the ground defensively for us. Évra calls them big game players, those Fred, Scott, Matic. Why? Because they remind him of those kind of players. I wouldn’t consider them simple squad players.

I’m sure you know very well you do not win games and titles with all those big games only.

You dislike Ole. Sure. But for me, he’s doing the right things and giving the right direction to the club. As of now, it’s about getting the results.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
53,708
I am certainly not who you would call new generation. Scott is a player for big games then, because he has the character. He’s exactly like Park and Fletcher. We don’t win many of our big games without their ability to cover for our forwards.

AWB is very high on the pitch. He’s very good with tackles and he’s very good going forward. His problem has been the progression of the ball, the transition. That’s why the team has solved it by making someone else progress the ball and that’s why we find it more often up there on the right. I’m sure you have noticed it.

I like all the big players you mentioned but for big games, we need people to cover the ground defensively for us. Évra calls them big game players, those Fred, Scott, Matic. Why? Because they remind him of those kind of players. I wouldn’t consider them simple squad players.

I’m sure you know very well you do not win games and titles with all those big games only.

You dislike Ole. Sure. But for me, he’s doing the right things and giving the right direction to the club. As of now, it’s about getting the results.
As said my generation used to call the likes of McT squad players to sound politically correct and mules when they don't. Fletcher btw had 27 assists under his belt. Savage (who was less talented but he probably played more first team games) had 25. Do you know how many assists the big game player has? 1. That's 6 less assists then Maguire, 5 less then Phil Jones and at par with Lindelof. Big game player indeed

I don't dislike Ole. I absolutely adored him as a player and I can understand why he's doing what he's doing now (which I had explained). I just find it funny how people are trying to embellish the reason behind this parking of the bus done. Its quite evident why we're doing it. He can't rely on that defence of his.