You're talking about missing elements of grey and doubt, whilst categorically stating what happened in a way that suits your opinion. Stretching out with your studs is reckless behaviour whether it connects or not. It's more often than not a concession that you've lost the race and is a last ditch attempt to salvage something by knocking the ball as the landing with your leg way out in front of you stops your run in its tracks. Unfortunately on this occasion he landed on someones leg with his full weight behind his studs, and could have inflicted serious damage. Whether he intended it or not is not relevant. There's nothing hyper bollocks about it. It's hyper bollocks to spend hours analysing something and coming up with gifs and videos from different angles that nobody had access to at the time or could have reasonably used to make their decision in the short space of time that the referee had. All that's relevant when looking at this decision is what the referee could possibly have seen at the time. Drafting a thesis on the approach and Bellerins body position and how he set his knee over his foot and all the rest of it is not what the referee would have had on his mind or even had time to think about.
The Pogba red card
- Thread starter Yorkeontop
- Start date
I'm not. I just don't understand why people completely eliminate intent from the equation.
If you do that then why doesn't every single clash of heads lead to a red card? It's as if we've skimmed over the whole intention thing. Theoretically players can simply throw themselves. It seems to have been decided that intention doesn't matter.
Pogba was stretching for the ball and landed on Bellerin. The only way he could have avoided that would be if he developed the ability to fly. Players are routinely forgiven handballs if deemed unintentional. It's not beyond the wit of football to make these distinctions. I'm irritated by people pretending the distinction doesn't exist and that it's cut and dried because a still photo can show Pogba standing on Bellerin's leg.
People are blaming Bellerin’s position but I personally believe it is the position that would give him the higher chance of intercepting the ball without endangering Pogba.
If he stuck his foot up he would have less cover area and higher chance of hitting Pogba’s ankle/shin.
Pogba also didnt get the ball as some are claiming, Bellerin did first and it bounced off Pogba then.
It was not intentional, but it was a red card in my opinion.
Very different than that Feghouli challenge. On first viewing I thought it was a red card for Jones!
He got the ball first but it was actually him who launched into Feghouli’s body, so rescinding it was the right decision.
If he stuck his foot up he would have less cover area and higher chance of hitting Pogba’s ankle/shin.
Pogba also didnt get the ball as some are claiming, Bellerin did first and it bounced off Pogba then.
It was not intentional, but it was a red card in my opinion.
Very different than that Feghouli challenge. On first viewing I thought it was a red card for Jones!
He got the ball first but it was actually him who launched into Feghouli’s body, so rescinding it was the right decision.
The presence of intent only makes the end result worse. The absence of intent doesn't make it better. The same outcome still happened. You gloss over 'Pogba was stretching for the ball' like that's a nothing thing. Stretching for the ball is reckless, and often ends badly. It's a desperate act, and if you're going to do something desperate then accept the consequences if it ends up wrong.
So if a player accidentally stands on a players foot during the match it's a straight red regardless of intent?
And again, why isn't every clash of heads a red card offence? The intent only makes the end result worse. Absence of intent when you've a player near concussed on the floor doesn't make it better. The same outcome still happened.
Right?
No, and now you're just being obtuse for the sake of it. The potential for injury is massively different between accidentally stepping on somebody's foot and desperately stretching for a ball and ending up driving all your weight and momentum through somebodies leg.
There's no doubting it is a comical leg though. Bellerin has so thoroughly fecked up his own positioning he basically presents his calf, sans silver tray, for Pogba to stand on.
Of course he does, and it's unfortunate and unavoidable, and still a red.
Its a red card because that is how ridiculous the game has become. Bellerin was more responsible for that red card than Pogba, but it was Pogba's stud that hit his leg that was planted on the floor. Therefore Pogba walks.
Similar to the John Terry incident where he tried to head a low ball and got kicked in the face, if that happened today the player that kicked him would be sent off even though it was Terry that was putting himself in danger.
Similar to the John Terry incident where he tried to head a low ball and got kicked in the face, if that happened today the player that kicked him would be sent off even though it was Terry that was putting himself in danger.
He landed. You're arguing for a red card for a player who succumbed to gravity. If a keeper jumps to claim a cross from a corner and ends up landing on someone and putting all of his weight and momentum on top of them, including perhaps even his studs, would that be a red card too?
It’s not end of story though is it? As lots of people, including experts, disagree wth you.
No I'm not, and it's pretty clear I'm not. If you're going to go to such extremes to try and highlight an absurdity that isn't there then it's pointless to continue and is frankly pathetic. At the end of the day, most people, pundits, players commenting and fans don't have an issue with it. Take from that what you will. They could all be wrong and you just be the enlightened one, though.
It's a red card but an unfortunate one. If Bellerin continues to dive about like that he might end up a litte worse off in future.
I've said many times here that I have no issue with the red being given and I was fuming with Pogba when it happened. I also don't think an appeal would succeed because that's just the way these things are.
With that said though, I think that if the appeals process was completely fair and had no political element, United would have grounds to appeal it if they highlighted Bellerin's role in the incident and questioned what Pogba was supposed to do in the fraction of a second it happened. It made no sense for Bellerin to move away from the ball into Pogba's path and it made even less sense for him to fold his leg in such a way that it's the top of his calf that made the connection.
So you agree with the strategy to have players all diving underneath City next week. City will be down to 4 men by the time we're thru falling over!
The answer to that would be to not desperately stretch your leg and studs out. That's the reason that most of these challenges are red cards because they have the potential to be career ending, whether you intend it or not. You can't do something desparate and then ask what you were meant to do after it. I seriously doubt that in the same fraction of a second that you're giving Pogba to react to what happened, Bellerin had time to run through his head how he should position his body, or even think about his leg let alone think about folding it in such a way that his calf did anything. You can't absolve Pogba of doing anything because he only had half a second to react but then blame Bellerin for something that he'd need 10 seconds to plan through in his head in a fraction of a second. That's a little disingenuous.
Pogba touched the ball alright, with the outside of his right foot, not the toe, but as I said it bounced off him after Bellerin’s interception.
Also watch the challenge again, he does get a toe on the ball.
Or are you suggesting Pogba touched the ball before Bellerin?
Because if you are, and can prove that, I will transfer you a bitcoin right now!
It's the end of the story because there won't be an appeal and it's a red card .People can moan about it all they want but it's a dead issue
'Studs out'
Are players supposed to run with their leg perpendicular at all times just to make sure their studs don't show? Are they supposed to march like they are in the army?
Are players supposed to run with their leg perpendicular at all times just to make sure their studs don't show? Are they supposed to march like they are in the army?
Actually yes they are, at least when they are about to enter a challenge.
I'd love for you to show me the part of the rule book that says that. Not some interpretation of the rules, but that under no circumstances can a play tilt his foot to less than 90 degrees when going into a challenge. I know for a fact that players go into challenges with their 'studs out' many degrees more than Pogba and nothing happens. If Pogba missed Bellerins leg and hit the ground it wouldnt be a red card even though his foot wasnt at a perfect 90 degree angle.
If you can then fair play, because I'm not aware of such a rule.
6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
I'm of the opinion it was slightly harsh, Pogba was evidently attempting to dribble, Bellerin placed his leg in a unnatural position..
I don't think there was malicious intent. Granted it was slightly dangerous but I think the replays have some way to accentuating that.
I'm of the opinion it was slightly harsh, Pogba was evidently attempting to dribble, Bellerin placed his leg in a unnatural position..
I don't think there was malicious intent. Granted it was slightly dangerous but I think the replays have some way to accentuating that.
He doesn't. Watch it again, his toe is pointed to nick the ball until it connects with Bellerin's leg and his weight follows through. He was leading with his toe rather than his heel before that point.
As I said above, it's not one of those challenges he's leading toe first.
Bellerin's action was proactive, he was standing his ground with Pogba motoring towards him and knew all Pogba needed to do was touch it around him and he was in trouble so he made the decision to focus on obstructing Pogba's path rather than the ball. Pogba was moving towards the wing and Bellerin was on the inside of him so he moved wide to block him and the best he could do to challenge for the ball was wave a leg at it which is why despite being in good shape and balance to make a normal tackle he ended up in a weird position with only his leg making any connection.
Look at the caps below and bare in mind this is slowed down x3. Bellerin throws himself past the path of the ball and into Pogba's Path. He made that decision with far more time to think about it than Pogba.
Pogba could only realise where Bellerin was going to land by 2.31 and he connected at 2.93. In real time that would have given him about 0.2 of a second to react and change his whole momentum.
The last caps show he was leading with his toe and connected with Bellerin toe first before his body weight followed and forced the rest of his boot to land. Avoiding a collision after Bellerin moved to body check him would have been impossible and why shouldn't he try to toe the ball when a player is trying to check his path?
Fact is, if Bellerin doesn’t drop like that, Pogba doesn’t step on him. He was closer to the ball iirc and could’ve simply gone for a normal tackle or kick.... instead he drops his leg flat on the ground as Pogba reaches for the ball, causing Pogba to step on him in the process....
He is so clearly going for the ball. Where is his foot meant to go? If anything it's Bellerin who is in the unnatural position. The thing is, the contact that was made is very dangerous. No chance of the FA overturning it.
I'm not entirely sure on the specfics of it all, but I'm positive that studs must not be shown at any time upon entering a challenge. That is mandatory.
This whole situation essentially comes down to your interpretation of the terms "careless" and "reckless" in relation to the rules of the game. The ref clearly opted for the latter as he chose to send Pogba off, I would have done the same thing personally. Reckless endangerment.
The video of the incident does Pogba no favours either (in fact it looks rather damning upon close inspection - truth be told) which is why I would decide against an appeal in case of further retrospective action. You never know how the FA will react.
I dont have much of an issue with the Red card, the referees are there to apply the rules of the game as they see fit, not to create new ones by themselves. The way the rules are set up and applied, the impact of a challenge will often have more importance than the challenge itself. In this case the challenge itself was not particularly dangerous, but because Bellerin put himself in a low position the challenge became more dangerous.
The rules also create a situation where refs are inconsistent, and a sin bin type of punishment would have been perfect for this type of challenge IMO. Pogba's foot wasn't high, the angle of his foot wasnt sharp, he simply took an extra stride which caused him to collide with Bellerin's low leg.
@GifLord thank you so much. But sadly, this is not the clip i was talking about. I think there was another incident just before the red card where Mourinho/Rui Faria was giving instructions to Pogba and he seemed not happy with it.
Of course he did, the twit.
Just spot on and agree 100%.
The only decent analogy I can think of is if you go lie on the road and get run over, it's hardly the driver's fault you've done something that stupid.
West Ham' s Antonio should have seen red for a stamp on the goalie....if Pogba was a red...
Well thank feck it wasn't otherwise West Ham wouldn't stand a chance at making City dropping points now would they.
If this red card is overturned I will eat Fellaini's hair.
I doubt United will even be silly enough to go for a, completely futile, appeal.
I doubt United will even be silly enough to go for a, completely futile, appeal.
Well it was pretty harsh.. I think he deserve it.
Stupid is what he did , not what I wrote - he is a pro player and bearing in mind the result and next fixture must have been careful with trying to show how long his legs are
Do we know if United are appealing yet?
It's an unfortunate red, but a red nonetheless. Classic 'whataboutism', but if Bellerin does that to Pogba we'd want him tarred and feathered.
This post is melting my brain