The Premier League is Crap

SER19

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Perhaps a slightly dramatic title, but despite United's enjoyable progress, I can't remember finding the Premier League as poor. There is an incredible hype machine behind it, and a massively successful one. I want to clear up too, that I love the Premier League and it certainly has all the criteria to be the best league, or even forget comparing with other leagues - to become something really special. But for a variety of on and off field reasons, I've probably never been less interested - and this comes at a time when I'm enjoying United.

What's happening is incredible. You have a team who is now dominating the PL to the same extent PSG dominate Ligue 1. They are almost certain to win the CL too. This season, they have actually won the title in second gear, comfortably behind for much of the season with a calmness that they'd win the league almost making a mockery of it. This can't be argued against- some Arsenal fans aside, I think about 95% of others have considered the title City's pretty much since gameweek 1.

At the same time, there are over 100 charges out standing, and an investigation of a scale never seen before in English football. It is without question the biggest story in the sport in England, and any conversation about the ongoing season and so on, should be taking place in the shadow of this murky, terrible sportswashing tale - and yet other than when the story broke, it's basically never mentioned. Not by pundits, journalists, interviewers or even fans- no banners from opposing teams, no chants, nothing. This is symptomatic of a media industry around it with too much to lose- so the only real criticism comes from voices outside the sport who are easy to dismiss. I dont have my head in the sand about how the world works and obviously football is part of an imperfect world, but it's quite a feat to have made it so utterly soulless. The detachment between players and fans is staggering (see the Leeds players video earlier this month), there is an endless face of marketing at every glance from the clubs to the symbolic gestures, protests, badges you name it every other week - which may often be worthy causes, but none of it rings true. Everything feels like a robotic forced march.

On the football side, I've touched on the title. So what else is around the top? Dross like Spurs and an ageing Liverpool midfield scrapping it out for 5th while a United team in transition is looking comfortable in 4th. The emerging new team in the top is a Saudi backed club who have leapfrogged clubs like Brighton and Brentford through Saudi money- and they're only getting started.

Speaking of Brentford and Brighton, they've been real bright spots among other teams this season - but what comes next? Clubs like City and United will hoover up their talent, in many cases consigning players weve all enjoyed this season to the bench. This has always happened to an extent, top clubs want the best players and so be it, but it has never been so stark. You could go on and on and on listing players integral to smaller teams who became bit part subs, stockpiled at 'top' teams.

As for the bottom half, what a terrible collection of teams - battling with the absurd overspending of the PL and wage structures, to see clubs like Everton descend so much.

The officiating is absolutely awful- it doesn't warrant talking about.

Sky Sports and their ilk have disproportionate influence on narratives that surround the game and bring absolutely no vigour or integrity to the way they approach managers and players and talk to them or challenge them. Who remembers the famous Clough interview on some talk show, engaging in such a spirited, honest, chat and argument?

Clough is a good place to move on to characters- where I'll finish. The league is almost completely absent of them now. The sport has removed pretty much any room for the maverick or creative, with players now interchangeable as parts of incredibly efficient, but sleep-inducing machines of teams. It deeply misses guys like Cantona, Di Canio, Zola, Le Tissier - even the likes of Bergkamp, for all his incredible technical abilitiy and moments to suprise, would likely be reduced to an incredibly functional cog in today's game. It is inarguable the players like De Bruyne, Salah (who is a good example of a counter argument to my point), Haaland, Kane are incredible players who would have slotted in to any fine PL team of years gone by. But they are ferociously boring characters. That's not a criticism of them as people, they are the product of the game now. And this is before I go full old-man-yells-at-cloud and talk about the tattoos, hairstyles, jewellery,headphones and general behaviour of football players projecting themselves as wannabee hip-hop stars or Love Island failures.

It's grim, and I'm interested to know if anybody thinks it's all as bleak as I do. Personally, I don't see any way the league will ever return to what I grew up knowing it as, and feel it's only going to get worse and worse.
 

Care_de_Bobo

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Yeah, it's only going to go downhill from here. There's not even a hint of criticism from the media because they're all profiting from it. The referees are discussed every single week, but it's just a deflection most weeks from the increasingly bland product.

Yesterday was genuinely a good time to dissect a referees poor performance yet it was glossed over because the game ended 4-3 and was apparently a fantastic advert for the league. Whatever happened to fairness and an even playing field in the sport? The defending in the league is the worst it has ever been and like you say most players are just robots as well as a desperate lack of imagination. I really do miss the likes of Rooney, Lauren Robert and Muzzy Izzet trying the spectacular almost every game.
 

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Perhaps not “Crap”… And there are many good stories in it (Brighton… Villa this season… Even Leeds revival when they came back with Bielsa). But we have to agree with most of your post. It is insane how little attention the charges against City get. The whole establishment wants things nice and quite about that ugly side of the game.
 
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Nou_Camp99

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The team that are dominant have arguably one of the best 2/3 managers of all time, a sheikh at the helm and have also been publicly outed by Uefa and now the PL as cheating toe rags.
 

11101

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I can only hope the media are keeping a lid on the charges for fear of legal repercussions; once they're found guilty they will go for the throat. There should be no mention of City without reference to their guilt.
 

Baxquux

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I think it's less exciting that back in the day (although 'back in the day' is also childhood for many of us, statistically, in terms of 90s and early mid 2000s, which also makes things generally more halcyon ) for many of the reasons mentioned. A number of the factors mentioned through are longer-standing and not confined to the premier league, which at least caveats the comparative dimension of analysis,

You had rampant corruption though going on in the Italian league, with match fixing, as well as oligarchs/media barons of some stripe using clubs as playthings around the 90s, and then (as with Juventus in particular) fixing in the 21st Century. Again, these are usually brushed under the carpet unless it becomes so egregious the italian fa is forced to do something like relegation. Spain has long been tainted with blood-doping allegations (as has Guardiola, I think correctly, throughout his managerial career), as well as Barca/Madrid hegemony, with clubs also being bailed out by the state, as in Madrid, or allowed to wrack up monstrous debt and just invent new ways of 'rationalizing;' or moving that debt on into the future as with Barca, at which later date it will again be written off or abolished because they're deemed too big to fail as cultural-political institutions. Mid 2000s Chelsea in this country, if we're honest, was backed by a more egregious sportswashing project than (in practice) SJ would be, given the relative connections to the state on the part of Roman and to the degree to which it was laundering plunder of state assets.

Man City cover up is, as people have noted, a combination of 'injunctions', bribery or indirect pressure ( I don't think people realize how compromised the print and tv media establishment is in this country when it comes to special interests - someone like Nick Davies and his Flat Earth News is one place to start with this) and public cynicism. I know it's easy to dismiss these perspectives as biased, but the negative scrutiny towards United that accompanies any prospect of same -or less extreme- is a product of previous success that bred resentment as well as not playing the same PR game, and united fans being bullied into disproportionate virtue for the 'shame' of earlier success and not giving other sides a 'chance', for being hegemonic.

At the risk of a diatribe here, other fan bases, including Liverpool's in reality, are far more 'united,' although not universally obviously, in welcoming the prospect of investment from wherever as long as it supports success: you can also make apologies or remanufacture some version of 'authenticity', including appealing to a partly real justification about sports washing being better for a club/community's health because it's based upon a less extractive principle of ownership, and invests in local communities. For United, harsh neoliberalism, for everyone else, paternalism. And too many fans here have internalized, without getting too pretentiously pseudo-Nietzsche, 'failure' as a virtue and projecting self-regard onto everyone else, even at the risk of United spiralling. Some people have indicated they'd prefer for the club, this old entity, to go into ruin than be owned by a Sheikh, which should give an indication as to their real loyalties. The best thing would be a universal fan-owned model, the second (lesser evil) thing, is an 'prestige' ownership model that acknowledges that not every institution is subject to the profit motive, something that even honest conservatives have owned up to in the past. The best thing would be get the strongest owner, openly recognizing how power really works in the here and now, and then to politically lobby and fight for the fan commission to essentially abolish any of these kinds of ownerships (a kind of quasi- eminent domain), offer all clubs to be majority fan owned. Implemented, this would, IMO, lead us back towards the kind of footballing climate many of us grew up in, for a start, by solving some of the structural issues you allude to
 

redshaw

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Yes the meekness and apathy in the game is very high much like the country as a whole.

To be fair I noticed a lull in football Europe wide around 2015/16 and posted about it here, I don't feel it's improved any, the CL quarters were so poor seven years on. So many teams lacking the quality of players.
 

Zen86

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The hype machine tries to convince everyone it’s better and more exciting than ever, it’s been on the downward slide for years though. The rest of European football is pretty much the same.

At a top level, the number of truly competitive teams has never been fewer. And for those that are in that tier, there’s very little that captures the imagination.
 

norm87cro

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Look man I get what your saying but behind the LA Liga it is the best league in the World and the PL really needs no hype. And unlike La Liga Southampton can beat City on a good day Getafe cant beat Real
 

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At the risk of a diatribe here, other fan bases, including Liverpool's in reality, are far more 'united,' although not universally obviously, in welcoming the prospect of investment from wherever as long as it supports success: you can also make apologies or remanufacture some version of 'authenticity', including appealing to a partly real justification about sports washing being better for a club/community's health because it's based upon a less extractive principle of ownership, and invests in local communities. For United, harsh neoliberalism, for everyone else, paternalism. And too many fans here have internalized, without getting too pretentiously pseudo-Nietzsche, 'failure' as a virtue and projecting self-regard onto everyone else, even at the risk of United spiralling. Some people have indicated they'd prefer for the club, this old entity, to go into ruin than be owned by a Sheikh, which should give an indication as to their real loyalties. The best thing would be a universal fan-owned model, the second (lesser evil) thing, is an 'prestige' ownership model that acknowledges that not every institution is subject to the profit motive, something that even honest conservatives have owned up to in the past. The best thing would be get the strongest owner, openly recognizing how power really works in the here and now, and then to politically lobby and fight for the fan commission to essentially abolish any of these kinds of ownerships (a kind of quasi- eminent domain), offer all clubs to be majority fan owned. Implemented, this would, IMO, lead us back towards the kind of footballing climate many of us grew up in, for a start, by solving some of the structural issues you allude to
What a crock of old shite. The only democratic power we have over how the club is run is our ability to boycott and hit their pockets. That's not possible under a state ownership.
 

Malkovich

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I don't find it crap, but the City thing is getting really boring. The yanks have a good system of salary capping and helping the poor, ironically, that I think would work for the PL
 

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City are in a league of their own. Obviously there will come a day when they don't win the title but they have set the benchmark and it is increasingly difficult to reach that level without a benefactor.

The race for top four last sesson was low quality and it's the same again this time around.
 

Baxquux

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What a crock of old shite. The only democratic power we have over how the club is run is our ability to boycott and hit their pockets. That's not possible under a state ownership.
How's that 'consumer democracy' been working for united fans the last few years... Boycott all you want, they'll still continue trading off the vestiges of old success and whatever ETH can do now, however hamstrung, to flog rights and merchandise to fans over the world, but at the cost of the club ultimately falling behind. There might be other objections to state ownership but this one isn't flying...
 

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How's that 'consumer democracy' been working for united fans the last few years... Boycott all you want, they'll still continue trading off the vestiges of old success and whatever ETH can do now, however hamstrung, to flog rights and merchandise to fans over the world, but at the cost of the club ultimately falling behind. There might be other objections to state ownership but this one isn't flying...
It hasn't really been carried out effectively but the potential is there. Your argument is essentially, if you can't beat them join them.
 

Lay

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The hype machine is getting louder but the overall quality is lacking. Just listen to the atmospheres or lack of it, most games seem to be played in a library. I remember it used to be one of the selling points but it seems a step behind some other top leagues.

Also no one seems to give a feck that the league is corrupt and that we’ve had an oil state cook the books for over a decade which has made them the dominant force in English football. Do other teams fans actually care?
 

Dancfc

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The sky marketing has been genius and many people have fallen for it.

For example Arsenal drawing to relegation battling Southampton at home was apparently further proof that the PL was so strong and this type of thing wouldn't happen elsewhere, but it has, just in April champions elect in Serie A Napoli have drawn at home to two relegation candidates while Dortmund have had the Bundesliga title taken out of their hands due to a draw vs the third bottom side. And that's before I get into to how La Liga has embarrassed the PL in Europe for a long time now (most recently a side flirting with relegation for a lot of the season beating a side comfortably top 4 in the PL, remember when 10th place at the time us beating 1st place in Bundi Dortmund was used as a stick to beat the Bundesliga with?).

The "by far the best league in the world" marketing is gaslighting. It has a strong case to be the best, but not by the distance sky and these cliche pundits make out.
 

wr8_utd

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Look man I get what your saying but behind the LA Liga it is the best league in the World and the PL really needs no hype. And unlike La Liga Southampton can beat City on a good day Getafe cant beat Real
Maybe take a look at some of the teams Madrid loses to in the league. You'll be surprised.
 

PSV

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Maybe if fans weren't so opposed to the Super League we'd have two good products instead of one disjointed by now.
 

mu4c_20le

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Bundesliga is nice and clean. no one stopping you from following them.
 

Lay

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Look man I get what your saying but behind the LA Liga it is the best league in the World and the PL really needs no hype. And unlike La Liga Southampton can beat City on a good day Getafe cant beat Real
Real Madrid have lost to: Rayo Vallecano, Girona, Mallorca, Villarreal x2 and Barcelona.

Man City have lost to: United, Tottenham, Liverpool and Brentford. They haven't lost to a team in the bottom half of the table this season.
 

Idxomer

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Football has been in decline for a while, the last World Cup has been the only saving grace in the last 5 years.
 

Baxquux

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It hasn't really been carried out effectively but the potential is there. Your argument is essentially, if you can't beat them join them.
Yes. And then beat them - as I said, I'm fully supportive (and would actively support) fan pressure to reform the entire system, although it's just one of various priorities that I don't see being addressed politically any time soon . I'm immensely sceptical of the power of boycotts because they've been proven not to work very well at scale, certainly not at the scale needed (in terms of bringing together a high enough % of fans to act in a specific way). It's like the virtuous consumption version of waiting for the 21st Century spontaneous proletarian revolution or something.

You can pressurize specific sponsors to withdraw, with enough leverage, or the club to stay away from specific players ( the Marko A non-signing, for instance; I think large-scale fan feeling will actually have some impact on MG coming back or not) but not on bigger, structural issues. There'll always be another sponsor, another revenue stream and ultimately, if you allow for-profit investment groups, let alone second-gen 'family' vulture enterprises like the Glazers to continue, a short-sighted ownership strategy that keeps pushing things down the line, until it suddenly can't (just like very smart MBA'd-up people in the finance sector deployed a lot of motivated reason, or lack of, prior to something like the financial crash, for instance), we'll be in a rut.

I'm very very skeptical of SJR for numerous reasons, although it could be anything from 5 -50% better than the Glazers and we'll see what his plans are if and when anything official is made public, if and in what form repayments are being drawn from the club's direct revenue rather than INEOS' profits, whether INEOS is lending at minimal interest to the club to maintain investment etc. You can do ok up to a point with Liverpool's more strategic model with the debt not directly crippling the club. But there's a reason why Man City are doing so well, or why Bayern, in their different way, because of monopolies allowed to develop, are able to do so well - because they're running off quite different models which will, in present circumstances, always win out longer-term...
 
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fezzerUTD

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The hype machine is getting louder but the overall quality is lacking. Just listen to the atmospheres or lack of it, most games seem to be played in a library. I remember it used to be one of the selling points but it seems a step behind some other top leagues.

Also no one seems to give a feck that the league is corrupt and that we’ve had an oil state cook the books for over a decade which has made them the dominant force in English football. Do other teams fans actually care?
Grates on me the way they (media/pundits) suck Pep off and not say a word about the money, hyper normalisation at its finest. Almost like they have fought their way through the divisions and got themselves to the top off being a pure club.
 

Oranges038

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Personally I think the quality of football in general is vastly over rated and over hyped. There's very little entertainment value in most games.

With the PL, there just seems to be games on all the time and over saturation is starting to creep in.
 

Lay

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Personally I think the quality of football in general is vastly over rated and over hyped. There's very little entertainment value in most games.

With the PL, there just seems to be games on all the time and over saturation is starting to creep in.
I agree actually. Re-watching a game shows it. Take away the emotional investment and the game seems a lot slower and poorer in quality. But that's possibly the same with most sports.
 

norm87cro

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All I was saying is that the La Liga is better player wise but the PL is still a bit more competitive. No need for nitpicking...
 

Dansk

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They are almost certain to win the CL too.
Are they really? That's rather premature. They're facing Real Madrid next. How did that go last year?

This is a highly knee-jerk take. "Almost certain"? Christ almighty. No, they most definitely are not. They have a reasonable chance. "Almost certain" is incredibly stupid and irrational. I'm not even convinced they deserve 50/50 odds at this point. They're facing the toughest team they could possibly face, and even if they do win, they still have to win the final as well.
 

(...)

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I agree actually. Re-watching a game shows it. Take away the emotional investment and the game seems a lot slower and poorer in quality. But that's possibly the same with most sports.
You guys don't know how good you have it. I watch Ligue 1 football, and let me tell you that PL is 10x more entertaining. Same can be said for Serie A games or Liga games.
Bundesliga games are quite entertaining too, but it's really the only league that comes close to PL standards.
 

mu4c_20le

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All I was saying is that the La Liga is better player wise but the PL is still a bit more competitive. No need for nitpicking...
I'd say that was the case 10-15 years ago, but they've declined quite a bit. Especially without Ronaldo/Messi anymore.
 

Zen86

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Are they really? That's rather premature. They're facing Real Madrid next. How did that go last year?

This is a highly knee-jerk take. "Almost certain"? Christ almighty. No, they most definitely are not. They have a reasonable chance. "Almost certain" is incredibly stupid and irrational. I'm not even convinced they deserve 50/50 odds at this point. They're facing the toughest team they could possibly face, and even if they do win, they still have to win the final as well.
They’re spending hundreds of millions to win it. They will certainly do it within the next few years, if not this. That’s the rather sad inevitability of modern day football.
 

Galactic

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The bubble will burst one day, inevitably. Nothing last forever and football is already unsustainable. FFP will never work. The rich will dominate and they’ll get away with it easily. City is a proof to it.
 

kaiser1

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All I was saying is that the La Liga is better player wise but the PL is still a bit more competitive. No need for nitpicking...
How is the PL more competitive? City is about to do 5 in 6yrs. Some of those titles while playing in 2nd gear all through. Some playing with no striker, Some playing with 3 defenders, Pep just does whatever and he is guaranteed the league. He is on course for another 90points season
 

SER19

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Are they really? That's rather premature. They're facing Real Madrid next. How did that go last year?

This is a highly knee-jerk take. "Almost certain"? Christ almighty. No, they most definitely are not. They have a reasonable chance. "Almost certain" is incredibly stupid and irrational. I'm not even convinced they deserve 50/50 odds at this point. They're facing the toughest team they could possibly face, and even if they do win, they still have to win the final as well.
Last year was last year. Last year Liverpool almost won the title.

Madrid are way off the pace in La Liga, 11 behind a terrible Barca side, have had a number of woeful losses this season and even in the CL, where they come alive, they were beaten by a Leipzig team that city ripped to shreds and drew with a Shaktar side humiliated in the Europa league. If city don't beat Madrid over 2 legs, it will be an even bigger shock than last year, when they managed a quite incredible comeback. Both Milan sides are europa league quality teams Im afraid. Ive a soft spot for both but they're just not very good. Inter were brushed aside by the only decent team they played in group then got a decent draw of 2 portuguese teams and now AC - who Chelsea beat 5-0 on aggregate in the group!

If City don't win the CL from here it's an enormous failure
 

FrankFoot

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PL is a bit overrated, it's the best league, but the difference isn't massive, as you can see in european competitions (aside City).

Obviously the hype coming from media will be there, they are literally payed to hype the league, they are just doing their job.

At his point City has cucked everybody in the league to just fight for european spots.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Perhaps a slightly dramatic title, but despite United's enjoyable progress, I can't remember finding the Premier League as poor. There is an incredible hype machine behind it, and a massively successful one. I want to clear up too, that I love the Premier League and it certainly has all the criteria to be the best league, or even forget comparing with other leagues - to become something really special. But for a variety of on and off field reasons, I've probably never been less interested - and this comes at a time when I'm enjoying United.

What's happening is incredible. You have a team who is now dominating the PL to the same extent PSG dominate Ligue 1. They are almost certain to win the CL too. This season, they have actually won the title in second gear, comfortably behind for much of the season with a calmness that they'd win the league almost making a mockery of it. This can't be argued against- some Arsenal fans aside, I think about 95% of others have considered the title City's pretty much since gameweek 1.

At the same time, there are over 100 charges out standing, and an investigation of a scale never seen before in English football. It is without question the biggest story in the sport in England, and any conversation about the ongoing season and so on, should be taking place in the shadow of this murky, terrible sportswashing tale - and yet other than when the story broke, it's basically never mentioned. Not by pundits, journalists, interviewers or even fans- no banners from opposing teams, no chants, nothing. This is symptomatic of a media industry around it with too much to lose- so the only real criticism comes from voices outside the sport who are easy to dismiss. I dont have my head in the sand about how the world works and obviously football is part of an imperfect world, but it's quite a feat to have made it so utterly soulless. The detachment between players and fans is staggering (see the Leeds players video earlier this month), there is an endless face of marketing at every glance from the clubs to the symbolic gestures, protests, badges you name it every other week - which may often be worthy causes, but none of it rings true. Everything feels like a robotic forced march.

On the football side, I've touched on the title. So what else is around the top? Dross like Spurs and an ageing Liverpool midfield scrapping it out for 5th while a United team in transition is looking comfortable in 4th. The emerging new team in the top is a Saudi backed club who have leapfrogged clubs like Brighton and Brentford through Saudi money- and they're only getting started.

Speaking of Brentford and Brighton, they've been real bright spots among other teams this season - but what comes next? Clubs like City and United will hoover up their talent, in many cases consigning players weve all enjoyed this season to the bench. This has always happened to an extent, top clubs want the best players and so be it, but it has never been so stark. You could go on and on and on listing players integral to smaller teams who became bit part subs, stockpiled at 'top' teams.

As for the bottom half, what a terrible collection of teams - battling with the absurd overspending of the PL and wage structures, to see clubs like Everton descend so much.

The officiating is absolutely awful- it doesn't warrant talking about.

Sky Sports and their ilk have disproportionate influence on narratives that surround the game and bring absolutely no vigour or integrity to the way they approach managers and players and talk to them or challenge them. Who remembers the famous Clough interview on some talk show, engaging in such a spirited, honest, chat and argument?

Clough is a good place to move on to characters- where I'll finish. The league is almost completely absent of them now. The sport has removed pretty much any room for the maverick or creative, with players now interchangeable as parts of incredibly efficient, but sleep-inducing machines of teams. It deeply misses guys like Cantona, Di Canio, Zola, Le Tissier - even the likes of Bergkamp, for all his incredible technical abilitiy and moments to suprise, would likely be reduced to an incredibly functional cog in today's game. It is inarguable the players like De Bruyne, Salah (who is a good example of a counter argument to my point), Haaland, Kane are incredible players who would have slotted in to any fine PL team of years gone by. But they are ferociously boring characters. That's not a criticism of them as people, they are the product of the game now. And this is before I go full old-man-yells-at-cloud and talk about the tattoos, hairstyles, jewellery,headphones and general behaviour of football players projecting themselves as wannabee hip-hop stars or Love Island failures.

It's grim, and I'm interested to know if anybody thinks it's all as bleak as I do. Personally, I don't see any way the league will ever return to what I grew up knowing it as, and feel it's only going to get worse and worse.
If the Premier League is crap, what are the other leagues you think we should be watching instead? And why are they superior to the Premier League?