The RedCafe Boxing Thread

mu4c_20le

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It’s true I am a huge Marquez fan. Marquez, though not excusable (or ever caught but still quite clearly juiced at the end) was 39/40 and up against Pacquaio who was quite clearly juiced.
Nate is that you?

 

ZupZup

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that could maybe apply to Pacquiao as well, when you think he started at fly weight and was knocking out fighters at welterweight
Yeah, somewhat true for Pacquaio, but it feels like too a slightly lesser extent...

I guess the slight difference for me is that Pacqiaio was considered a devastating puncher at the lower weights. Also, his power hasn't carried as much because although he has knocked out welterweights... he really isn't as devastating a puncher as he was at the lower weights. I think he's had one or two TKO/KO's in the last ten years.

Canelo almost seems more likely to KO fighters at super middleweight. We've got Callum Smith with a detached bicep... BJS with a broken orbital bone.
 

Inter Yer Nan

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I know you're a huge boxing fan and much more knowledgable than me (mainly MMA here) but don't you think they are all doing it? I mean didn't BJS himself have a similar incident to the Canelo 'tainted beed' thing? I'd honestly love to know what you think because for example in MMA I don't diminish Jones' achievements because as far as I'm concerned everyone he fought was juiced, including DC.

Couldn't, for example, the difference between Canelo and BJS be that they are both juiced but Canelo simply has more natural talent, a better coaching team and took his training more seriously? For me in MMA I think Jones was just more talented than his opponents so when he juiced and they did he simply was still better.

I'm not happy that BJS might be finished (although lets be clear he is a top level scumbag) but I can se the irony in the video he released on Dubouis claiming he 'quit' against Joyce.

Don't get me wrong, especially in combat sports (where someone's life can be altered by a contest) I wish it was fully clean but unfortunately it never will be. Fury is a drug cheat too and no one cries foul about him beating Wilder, who as far as I know has never failed a test.
From my understanding Saunders’ was something legal in UK but not on USADA. Something like that. His physical appearance hasn’t seen the change Canelo’s has either so it’s clear he’s (or anyone else) isn’t on quite so potent stuff as Canelo.

I definitely am suspicious at the sport as a whole but when see you physical growth at certain ages, improved power/speed while moving up, then those are the obvious ones. Lomachenko, for example, appears the opposite. Clearly not as potent higher up. When we talk of modern boxer in all-time senses I tend to look at them suspiciously like Roy Jones who gets an * for me because he popped dirty and clearly had the signs. Canelo oozes juice and he was not a great fighter while barely getting by Trout (in a fight he demanded smaller ring and open scoring and he was losing yet the scores were in his favor so Trout had to alter his tactics and Canelo knew to stay away), losing 12-0 to Floyd, losing to Lara (gift), losing twice to Golovkin, even an underwhelming win over the much smaller, shot Cotto, fairly close fight with a weight drained Jacobs who was made to agree to a rehydration clause (which Canelo lied about) so I can’t help but think he’s only getting to this level via juice. So for me I’ll never accept him as a great fighter and I won’t vote for him to get into the Hall of Fame but let’s face it he’ll get in so that’s moot.
 

mu4c_20le

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Yeah, somewhat true for Pacquaio, but it feels like too a slightly lesser extent...

I guess the slight difference for me is that Pacqiaio was considered a devastating puncher at the lower weights. Also, his power hasn't carried as much because although he has knocked out welterweights... he really isn't as devastating a puncher as he was at the lower weights. I think he's had one or two TKO/KO's in the last ten years.
Slightly lesser? In his prime, he had inhuman speed. Personally I always suspected something there but it was impossible to prove. He was also immensely popular, far more than Canelo ever was. So it's very odd that @Inter Yer Nan would feel so dramatically sick about Canelo and not Pacquiao, who was the darling of the boxing world back then. I suggest you go watch some of his highlights because the power he had at that size was unreal.
 

Oggmonster

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This whole debate shows that people will just turn a blind eye to favourites and make excuses whilst slating fighters they don't like.

Canelo most likely still uses PEDs but people are doing the classic now he "looks like he is" as if their opinion on how someone looks is now definitive proof someone is on something. He's a rich, professional athlete course he's going to look good!

I'm not saying he isn't on something (I'm saying the opposite) but the problem with all this is people are mindlessly speculating who is and isn't on PEDs and it always ends the same way.

The reality is none of us will know for certain until they get caught...as always it becomes a pointless debate.
 

ZupZup

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Slightly lesser? In his prime, he had inhuman speed. Personally I always suspected something there but it was impossible to prove. He was also immensely popular, far more than Canelo ever was. So it's very odd that @Inter Yer Nan would feel so dramatically sick about Canelo and not Pacquiao, who was the darling of the boxing world back then. I suggest you go watch some of his highlights because the power he had at that size was unreal.
I don't think you have understood me. I am talking about the fact that Pacquio's power has carried up through the weight classes to a lesser extent than Canelo's.

It's very possible that Pacquaio was juicing. I did say he was known for being a devastating puncher at the lower weights and a large part of that was from his speed. Amusing that you suggest I go watch his highlights... I suspect I may have seen more of his fights than you have!
 

mu4c_20le

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I don't think you have understood me. I am talking about the fact that Pacquio's power has carried up through the weight classes to a lesser extent than Canelo's.

It's very possible that Pacquaio was juicing. I did say he was known for being a devastating puncher at the lower weights and a large part of that was from his speed. Amusing that you suggest I go watch his highlights... I suspect I may have seen more of his fights than you have!
I know what you meant, I was just pointing out that his speed was more sus than his power. I've been a Floyd fan all my life, and also followed his career closely because his fans insisted he was the one who could destroy Mayweather ;) rivalry aside though, he was unreal.
 

Balljy

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I know what you meant, I was just pointing out that his speed was more sus than his power. I've been a Floyd fan all my life, and also followed his career closely because his fans insisted he was the one who could destroy Mayweather ;) rivalry aside though, he was unreal.
That's always going to be my biggest annoyance in boxing. Watching a one-armed Pacquiao fight Mayweather years after both their physical peaks was a joke. That fight could have been incredible at the right time.
 

Inter Yer Nan

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A big difference between Pacquaio, is that he was a much smaller man and was entering the ring roughly the same as he was weighing. It’s still wrong (if) he juiced but it’s not at Canelo’s egregious level. Canelo not putting in a rehydration clause for Saunders or Golovkin, for example, compared to fighting Jacobs, Kovalev, Smith so he could come into the ring well above around 180+ vs. Golovkin and what seems close to 190 for Saunders shows him using it to have a size and strength advantage and the ability to walk through shots of guys his own size. Pacquaio, clearly a better fighter than Canelo, actually saw his KO% dry up whereas Canelo’s has improved.

I’ll be honest too.Bias plays a part in how we treat them. I actually never liked Pacquaio (but respected him and considered him great long before he moved to welterweight where IMO he wasn’t as good) but I’ve never been able to stand Canelo who I find to be an arrogant prick who’s been protected and has always been enabled and entitled. I even rooted for Mayweather when he fought Canelo and that says something!! But seriously, he went from justifying avoiding a fight saying “I’m not a middleweight” to knocking out dudes at 175, crushing bodies and bones of guys at 168? That’s ridiculous. Though it could be noted his competition at 168has been very mediocre.
 

Inter Yer Nan

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That's always going to be my biggest annoyance in boxing. Watching a one-armed Pacquiao fight Mayweather years after both their physical peaks was a joke. That fight could have been incredible at the right time.
The styles would never mesh. Mayweather is a defensive fighter and he didn’t like southpaws. He’d always be too defensive to make a good fight with Pacquaio. Pacquaio doesn’t really do as well vs. counter punchers too.
 

Balljy

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The styles would never mesh. Mayweather is a defensive fighter and he didn’t like southpaws. He’d always be too defensive to make a good fight with Pacquaio. Pacquaio doesn’t really do as well vs. counter punchers too.
You're probably right, but at his peak Pacquiao wasn't someone who really seemed to care about style, he would just burst forward trying to throw constant punches for 12 rounds. It would have taken a lot of dodging by Mayweather. Pacquiao didn't really care about being punched at that stage too due to his speed.

It probably would have ended up with Mayweather nullifying the threat, but I would have liked to see it. The fight we got was just quite sad to see with his right arm just hanging for most of the fight.
 

Inter Yer Nan

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You're probably right, but at his peak Pacquiao wasn't someone who really seemed to care about style, he would just burst forward trying to throw constant punches for 12 rounds. It would have taken a lot of dodging by Mayweather. Pacquiao didn't really care about being punched at that stage too due to his speed.

It probably would have ended up with Mayweather nullifying the threat, but I would have liked to see it. The fight we got was just quite sad to see with his right arm just hanging for most of the fight.
I think Pacquaio could have won but by virtue of Floyd being too defensive and not committing to anything. Smart pick is Floyd being the bigger man, being the smarter fighter, edging it but it could have been that he was too defensive to win. Either way it would always be a dull fight.
 

Deery

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How good is Andrade?
He’s pretty good but loses focus midway through fights and let’s opponents back in but that’s usually because he’s already done enough to win.

He’s got power too and could cause anyone trouble but this version of Canelo beats him if you ask me.
 
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Adam-Utd

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At this point it's like Cycling for me, everybody is on steriods at the top. If you weren't you'd be paranoid your opponent probably is already.
 

Inter Yer Nan

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How good is Andrade?
He's got excellent talent. As an amateur, it was expected he'd be a great pro. I think his career has been mismanaged, and the marketing or lack thereof around him, has held him back. He does tend to look really, really good for a few rounds, then sleepwalks through a fight. Almost because it's too easy or he gets bored. He's like Saunders in that regard but he's much better in every category. Stylistically, he's a problem for Canelo. If he can be zoned in for a 12 rounds, he may be able to win more rounds, but I doubt he (or anyone) gets a decision over the redhead.
 

Inter Yer Nan

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Come on lads - lets start the Josh Taylor v Jose Ramirez hype. Leave the steroids alone!

Huge huge fight for me :drool:
Put in for a press credential. Will find out this week if I get it but not holding my breath. It's very limited attendance. I even tried to buy tickets last week, and like everyone else I know, they went to the site and it said "Not available right now" for about 10-15 mins and all of a sudden it's "sold out" which I think was BS. Sold them to the high rollers and re-sellers. I see some sites have them $750 for two seats right now and that's the cheapest seats.

It's a great fight. There's no doubt Taylor is the more impressive and talented of the two. He also has beaten the better opposition but Ramirez is a steady and determined guy. The fact Taylor has one round in 20 months, whereas Ramirez got 12 good championship rounds with a good guy like Postol, makes this even more interesting. I hope Taylor has had top sparring because I think he'll need his A game. I think he'll win but be made to work hard and win a close decision.
 

El General 1994

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Put in for a press credential. Will find out this week if I get it but not holding my breath. It's very limited attendance. I even tried to buy tickets last week, and like everyone else I know, they went to the site and it said "Not available right now" for about 10-15 mins and all of a sudden it's "sold out" which I think was BS. Sold them to the high rollers and re-sellers. I see some sites have them $750 for two seats right now and that's the cheapest seats.

It's a great fight. There's no doubt Taylor is the more impressive and talented of the two. He also has beaten the better opposition but Ramirez is a steady and determined guy. The fact Taylor has one round in 20 months, whereas Ramirez got 12 good championship rounds with a good guy like Postol, makes this even more interesting. I hope Taylor has had top sparring because I think he'll need his A game. I think he'll win but be made to work hard and win a close decision.
Wow! Good luck!

Do you think Ramiirez is the harder puncher out of the two? It's a 50/50 for me.
 

SambaBoy

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It’s true I am a huge Marquez fan. Marquez, though not excusable (or ever caught but still quite clearly juiced at the end) was 39/40 and up against Pacquaio who was quite clearly juiced. Canelo being in his 20s against opponents who don’t have any suspicions (Saunders but wasn’t that something legal in UK?) and looking more and more transformed physically than just about any boxer since Vinny Paz is the most egregious act of modern times. Not like he doesn’t have the judges on his side as well (Marquez for example got shafted against Pacquaio on cards in their fights) so to roid to his level is too much.

Seeing Canelo taunting and showboating after that punch on Saturday made me sick. Sick in him and disgusted by the fans that reveled in it. I wasn’t going to watch this fight but got forced to almost, I skipped Canelo’s last few fights. I’ll skip the next few I think.
You're coming across very bitter towards Canelo. 'Roid to his level' is subjective, we truly don't know how much BJS/Fury/Pac/Mayweather/Canelo or any other boxer has juiced. PEDs are used for different things. Some of more effective at muscle gain, power, endurance, fat loss etc. Maybe Canelo is on EPO, Clen, Nandrolone, and a host of other illegal PEDs. Maybe BJS was, who knows! But too say it's more excusable for Marquez because he was 39/40 is just silly.

I doubt any of the athletes taking PEDs will get to a certain level or a number of cycles and decide to not take it because it's unethical and unfair.

His status as the no1 p4p is due to his ability and talent, not due to his ability to avoid getting caught for PED use.
 

Oggmonster

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You're coming across very bitter towards Canelo. 'Roid to his level' is subjective, we truly don't know how much BJS/Fury/Pac/Mayweather/Canelo or any other boxer has juiced. PEDs are used for different things. Some of more effective at muscle gain, power, endurance, fat loss etc. Maybe Canelo is on EPO, Clen, Nandrolone, and a host of other illegal PEDs. Maybe BJS was, who knows! But too say it's more excusable for Marquez because he was 39/40 is just silly.

I doubt any of the athletes taking PEDs will get to a certain level or a number of cycles and decide to not take it because it's unethical and unfair.

His status as the no1 p4p is due to his ability and talent, not due to his ability to avoid getting caught for PED use.
Yep exactly it's all guessing by purely looking at people and deciding they do it more than others and whether you like the boxer in question or not. That's why I think it's best people just don't get that worked up about it because we're all just guessing at this point.
 

thepolice123

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GGG was washed up?!?! He was unbeaten going into the fights and has only lost once ever...to Canelo!
He was 35 in their first fight and 37 in their second. He's still in good shape but anyone who follows GGG will tell you he was already past his peak. He was visibly slower and very prone to getting tagged. The signs were there going as far back as the Brook match.



I definitely am suspicious at the sport as a whole but when see you physical growth at certain ages, improved power/speed while moving up, then those are the obvious ones. Lomachenko, for example, appears the opposite. Clearly not as potent higher up. When we talk of modern boxer in all-time senses I tend to look at them suspiciously like Roy Jones who gets an * for me because he popped dirty and clearly had the signs. Canelo oozes juice and he was not a great fighter while barely getting by Trout (in a fight he demanded smaller ring and open scoring and he was losing yet the scores were in his favor so Trout had to alter his tactics and Canelo knew to stay away), losing 12-0 to Floyd, losing to Lara (gift), losing twice to Golovkin, even an underwhelming win over the much smaller, shot Cotto, fairly close fight with a weight drained Jacobs who was made to agree to a rehydration clause (which Canelo lied about) so I can’t help but think he’s only getting to this level via juice. So for me I’ll never accept him as a great fighter and I won’t vote for him to get into the Hall of Fame but let’s face it he’ll get in so that’s moot.
TBF Jacobs is always full of excuses. But I think the Jacobs that fought GGG would have beaten Canelo. That was a legitimate cruiserweight in the ring. :lol:
 

Oggmonster

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He was 35 in their first fight and 37 in their second. He's still in good shape but anyone who follows GGG will tell you he was already past his peak. He was visibly slower and very prone to getting tagged. The signs were there going as far back as the Brook match.





TBF Jacobs is always full of excuses. But I think the Jacobs that fought GGG would have beaten Canelo. That was a legitimate cruiserweight in the ring. :lol:
But he wasn't washed up that's my point, he may of been older but he was still a high level fighter when they fought, it's not like Canelo dragged out Tyson/Roy Jones after their fight.

People can not like the guy it doesn't bother me in the slightest there's plenty of fighters I don't like that others do but some of the stuff in this thread on Canelo is madness...people deciding he's the biggest juice head ever with no evidence other than looking at him (he's not that big either, granted he has huge punch power but so do plenty of other boxers), saying his whole record is pretty much nothing etc.

In all honesty to me sometimes stuff like that comes across as trying to be the smartest in the room....one of my mates does it with music, any popular band are automatically shit and this band no one has ever heard of are the best thing since sliced bread. There's plenty of people who know more about boxing than me for example I just enjoy the spectacle of it and reading about it etc. As I said it's fine to dislike the guy and that's the beauty of opinion but some of the stuff in this thread is way OTT.
 

Abraxas

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It wouldn't be surprising if many of the top boxers were on something, really. It seems to be that Canelo has the advantage of being an unbelievable boxer on top of being something of a physical freak with some very unusual characteristics for somebody that moves up in weight that do not really tally with history and precedent.

He has already been associated with strange practices so wouldn't it be more of a surprise if it was demonstrable that the guy is completely clean? There is never going to be proof either way given there are so many reasons to conceal the truth so what can we really do as fans? It's all circular reasoning and plain guesswork. I think the gut feeling is many of these guys are on something now and that's about as far down the rabbit hole as it is worth going without being totally definitive and open to new data.
 

ShinjiNinja26

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Joshua v Fury confirmed by Hearn to be in Saudi Arabia. Watching or boycotting?
To the surprise of absolutely no one! This was always going to be the case, money talks unfortunately. It’s a joke this isn’t being held in Wembley, 90k capacity, two British fighters going at it for the title of undisputed champion in the biggest fight in British boxing history, there should be no other option.
 

pascell

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To the surprise of absolutely no one! This was always going to be the case, money talks unfortunately. It’s a joke this isn’t being held in Wembley, 90k capacity, two British fighters going at it for the title of undisputed champion in the biggest fight in British boxing history, there should be no other option.
Wembley won't be holding 90k fans for a long while, at least not this year, so that puts that option out the window.
 

Salt Bailly

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Wembley for the rematch then, you'd hope...

As for the SA bout, I'll be watching but I sure as feck won't be paying.
 

Deery

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I will be watching of course I will, think I might even pay for it as well just in case the stream messes up or something.

I’m not as hyped as I thought I would be though..
 

Inter Yer Nan

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That's 18 months of ring rust for Fury. He'll be favored but it's food for thought. Joshua got some solid rounds in about 5 months ago, so 8 months isn't bad for him. Realistically, this should have been happening in June, but I suppose August 14th isn't far off.
 

DixieDean

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I have to say I was really looking forward to Fury V Joshua. By far the biggest fight in UK history.

And then they go an ruin it by having it take place in SA. feck them both and Eddie Hearn.