The RedCafe Boxing Thread

[fergies coat]

What was the dx tribute celebration about?

 

[pocco]

Can’t tell if that performance was caused by too much fear, a lack of match fitness, getting used to a new style or clever tactics of waiting to exploit the difference in fitness.

That performance is nothing new. Since getting beat up by Ruiz he's been completely gun shy because he knows he can be hurt. It's resulted in him trying to become more of a boxer but he looks completely lost.

I said for many years he'd get beat by both Fury and Wilder, even in his better days when he was more aggressive. This new AJ is scared and will be 10x more nervous when put in front of Wilder who won't come to feel him out, but take his head off. If he fights Wilder like he has done in any of his fights over the list few years, he will get eaten alive. If he fought how he used to then he'd have more of a chance but I'd still fancy Wilder.

But he's not going back to that now because reality has dawned on him that he's not a great fighter like everyone built him up to be, and nowhe doubts himself and that's a problem. I'm just glad that more people and pundits are calling a spade a spade with AJ and the charade is over. He's a sitting duck for Wilder.

 

[goalscholes]

That performance is nothing new. Since getting beat up by Ruiz he's been completely gun shy because he knows he can be hurt. It's resulted in him trying to become more of a boxer but he looks completely lost.

I said for many years he'd get beat by both Fury and Wilder, even in his better days when he was more aggressive. This new AJ is scared and will be 10x more nervous when put in front of Wilder who won't come to feel him out, but take his head off. If he fights Wilder like he has done in any of his fights over the list few years, he will get eaten alive. If he fought how he used to then he'd have more of a chance but I'd still fancy Wilder.

But he's not going back to that now because reality has dawned on him that he's not a great fighter like everyone built him up to be, and nowhe doubts himself and that's a problem. I'm just glad that more people and pundits are calling a spade a spade with AJ and the charade is over. He's a sitting duck for Wilder.

I’ve never, even at his peak, thought he could lay a glove on Fury. Different class entirely.

He had a chance against Wilder, but not much of one anymore, especially if he boxes as he has recently.

 

[Red_toad]

If he cracks Wilder he’s done, goes for both of them. Will be a short lived fight regardless of who wins. Should be an exciting match up. Have a feeling Wilder is finished as Fury pummelled him in 2 long hard fights and boxers aren’t usually the same after taking such beating. Hard to say as his last fight didn’t really get started.
Will be a good final payday for the loser.

 

[simonhch]

The Ruiz fight was the ending of Joshua. Didn’t know it at the time but it completely changed him as a fighter. From the guy that fought like a lion against Klitschko, into a meek lamb.

From what I heard behind the scenes, AJ caught a hit in training for the Ruiz fight and had a mild concussion. They should’ve cancelled. But he fought anyway, and he unsurprisingly lost. As soon as he took one hit against Ruiz he was toast. A hit on top of a concussion, however mild, is devastating. That decision cost him his career.

Before that, he was a raw fighter but he had talent and heart, and he hit hard. He was aggressive. That’s the only way to play to his strengths. The old AJ would demolish Wilder, who is a terrible boxer; but this version is just a walking heavy bag. He’s going to get battered by a guy who is a clown.

 

[Jam]

That performance is nothing new. Since getting beat up by Ruiz he's been completely gun shy because he knows he can be hurt. It's resulted in him trying to become more of a boxer but he looks completely lost.

I said for many years he'd get beat by both Fury and Wilder, even in his better days when he was more aggressive. This new AJ is scared and will be 10x more nervous when put in front of Wilder who won't come to feel him out, but take his head off. If he fights Wilder like he has done in any of his fights over the list few years, he will get eaten alive. If he fought how he used to then he'd have more of a chance but I'd still fancy Wilder.

But he's not going back to that now because reality has dawned on him that he's not a great fighter like everyone built him up to be, and nowhe doubts himself and that's a problem. I'm just glad that more people and pundits are calling a spade a spade with AJ and the charade is over. He's a sitting duck for Wilder.

This is bang on and I’ve been saying it for years.

Joshua chewed through the earlier ranks and even in doing so he never demonstrated great technical boxing or versatility. I said he’d go far but would be completely found out at the top end of the division and that is exactly how his career laid out.

I really don’t understand why his trainers and advisors didn’t build him up better during those climbing years; it was pretty evident what would happen. By the time you get to the Ruiz fight and it’s too late for him to truly adapt his style it’s done.

A later stage fighter trying to completely alter their fighting, and on the back of all lost confidence because he spent the majority of his career having smoke blown up his arse by fans and his inner circle.

It wasn’t as if he was a monster like Wilder where he could rely on brute force to the top, he’s a level below that in KO-merchant regards. And he is miles off being a great technician like Fury.

AJ could have been something special but he was completely let down by an inadequate inner circle and media hype. Of course we’re talking like he’s a bum; when he clearly wasn’t and he did reach the top of the sport which can’t be taken away, but he could have been a lot more. He should have had title-longevity and a unifier.

 

[Judas]

Yeah before the Ruiz defeat, maybe even a fight or two after that I'd still have fancied AJ to beat Wilder, due to being just so much better at boxing overall, but now? Could be an ugly way for AJ to go out, which he probably should. He looks cooked.

I'm still gutted we didn't get Fury/AJ years and years ago, and it one of the many reasons to hate how Boxing operates.

 

[cyberman]

Yeah before the Ruiz defeat, maybe even a fight or two after that I'd still have fancied AJ to beat Wilder, due to being just so much better at boxing overall, but now? Could be an ugly way for AJ to go out, which he probably should. He looks cooked.

To be fair all Wilder has done in his last 3/4 fights is get absolutely destroyed and barely win a round

 

[Judas]

To be fair all Wilder has done in his last 3/4 fights is get absolutely destroyed and barely win a round

True, he's always been an average fighter who relies simply on a punch. So who knows, but with the way AJ boxes now like a scared rabbit, feels like a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[SilentWitness]

To be fair all Wilder has done in his last 3/4 fights is get absolutely destroyed and barely win a round

I wouldn't say that but despite that, he still hasn't looked worse than AJ in his last 3/4 fights which is pretty shocking.

 

[cyberman]

I wouldn't say that but despite that, he still hasn't looked worse than AJ in his last 3/4 fights which is pretty shocking.

But it is true? Fury dominated him for three fights and before that he fought Ortiz who had won every single round until Wilder landed the shot
If people can point to 4 rounds he’s won in the last four fights Id be shocked
(Edit I don’t include his last comeback fight to be fair, same way I don’t really count Joshua’s knockout last night)

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

What was the dx tribute celebration about?

He’s such a weird guy, every time I watch him do or say anything there’s always something where you come away thinking what was that about

 

[SilentWitness]

But it is true? Fury dominated him for three fights and before that he fought Ortiz who had won every single round until Wilder landed the shot
If people can point to 4 rounds he’s won in the last four fights Id be shocked
(Edit I don’t include his last comeback fight to be fair, same way I don’t really count Joshua’s knockout last night)

I'd say he won a couple of rounds in each of the fights against Fury and most of the rounds he won it was when he was really putting it on Fury. Let's not forget he's probably been the closest man thus far in Furys career to beat him. Convincingly beaten in both by a better boxer but wouldn't say absolutely destroyed.

 

[Withnail]

He’s such a weird guy, every time I watch him do or say anything there’s always something where you come away thinking what was that about

That my back is sore bit was almost as bad McGregor's egg boxing factory quip.

Pair of gobshites.

 

[DixieDean]

You're all talking like wilder is some flawless HW phenom who looks unbeatable. The dude has a all time great punch. But technically he's miles behind AJ. And it' not like he has a iron chin himself. I've seen him dropped/rocked multiple times. If AJ lands clean, he'll stop him. That fight is not going more than 4 rounds and is a toss up.

 

[pocco]

I don't think you can hold getting dominated by Fury against him, he is clearly the best right now and technically excellent for such a big guy. And I was impressed by Wilder for periods of those fights, dare I say it but I thought in one fight (can't remember which) he showed decent boxing ability. Let's not forget he even nearly KOd Fury. Personally I think Wilder is better than AJ comfortably.

 

[Leg-End]

If I’m in AJ’s camp there is no way I’m letting him get in a ring with Wilder. He can still have a solid few more pay days to pad him out but Wilder is all wrong for him.

AJ is a very average “boxer” which is his style now, he’s still leagues ahead of Wilder on that front though. But Wilder can hit harder than anything AJ has ever taken, I just think Wilder would blast through this tentative AJ we have now and I doubt AJ is willing to fight fire with fire anymore.

 

[pocco]

You're all talking like wilder is some flawless HW phenom who looks unbeatable. The dude has a all time great punch. But technically he's miles behind AJ. And it' not like he has a iron chin himself. I've seen him dropped/rocked multiple times. If AJ lands clean, he'll stop him. That fight is not going more than 4 rounds and is a toss up.

AJ honestly looks amateur still to me when he's trying to box. Like, actually amateur level. I used to train and he moves the same way guys moved that were just starting out. Even last night, saying he can't find the right hand. That's because he doesn't know how to box well. How he is still learning on the job at this stage is ridiculous.

 

[SilentWitness]

You're all talking like wilder is some flawless HW phenom who looks unbeatable. The dude has a all time great punch. But technically he's miles behind AJ. And it' not like he has a iron chin himself. I've seen him dropped/rocked multiple times. If AJ lands clean, he'll stop him. That fight is not going more than 4 rounds and is a toss up.

For me, it's more that Wilder doesn't appear to be as mentally troubled by the defeats to Fury as AJ is to Ruiz/Usyk. They're both limited but Wilder doesn't seem to have that nervous energy that is absolutely radiating with AJ currently.

 

[DixieDean]

AJ honestly looks amateur still to me when he's trying to box. Like, actually amateur level. I used to train and he moves the same way guys moved that were just starting out. Even last night, saying he can't find the right hand. That's because he doesn't know how to box well. How he is still learning on the job at this stage is ridiculous.

Well, he started boxing late and that will always hold him back to some extent. The fundamentals were not there at a young age. But! Wilder was also a late starter and has some massive holes in his game. Of course, he has the equalizer which could knockout anyone so it's always going to be tough against him for that reason. If Wilder had a iron chin he would be a nightmare match up. I'm on the fence in that fight.

Thinking about it, this fight is the biggest who lands clean first fight I've seen in a long time.

 

[DannyCAFC]

Agree with most that I can't see him beating Wilder at this point. Looks like he's having to completely relearn basics at the moment and doesn't look natural / nothing is slowing. Combined that with him looking more upright and stiff and a bit slower, and his defense has never been great, I'm confident Wilder will find a home for the right hand early. There's a big gap mentality wise there at the moment and Wilder will sense that and pounce.

 

[T00lsh3d]

For me, it's more that Wilder doesn't appear to be as mentally troubled by the defeats to Fury as AJ is to Ruiz/Usyk. They're both limited but Wilder doesn't seem to have that nervous energy that is absolutely radiating with AJ currently.

This is absolutely on point.

 

[Dan_F]

For me, it's more that Wilder doesn't appear to be as mentally troubled by the defeats to Fury as AJ is to Ruiz/Usyk. They're both limited but Wilder doesn't seem to have that nervous energy that is absolutely radiating with AJ currently.

I’m assuming you must be talking about out of the ring, because the Fury fight was almost two years ago and we’ve seen Wilder boxing for all of three minutes since.

There’s obviously way more evidence to judge AJ on since his knockout.

 

[pocco]

Well, he started boxing late and that will always hold him back to some extent. The fundamentals were not there at a young age. But! Wilder was also a late starter and has some massive holes in his game. Of course, he has the equalizer which could knockout anyone so it's always going to be tough against him for that reason. If Wilder had a iron chin he would be a nightmare match up. I'm on the fence in that fight.

Thinking about it, this fight is the biggest who lands clean first fight I've seen in a long time.

Yeah neither are particularly great boxers. I think Wilder can get by a bit when he does fight behind the jab, which I've only seen him do against Fury once. Like others have said, normally it would be a bit of a toss up, but I just don't think AJ ever had the fundamentals to deal with Wilders wild "swing for the hills" approach and it'd put him on the back foot where he really withers. But now, this current AJ, I just think he's too scared to go toe to toe and make it a toss up. I reckon he'll only let his hands go when Wilder has him hurt, and it'll be curtains for him.

 

[SilentWitness]

I’m assuming you must be talking about out of the ring, because the Fury fight was almost two years ago and we’ve seen Wilder boxing for all of three minutes since.

There’s obviously way more evidence to judge AJ on since his knockout.

AJ has fought three times since the last Wilder/Fury fight and looked rubbish and nervy in all three aside from last nights knockout which has been the only glimpse of the 'old' AJ. Wilder looked far less nervous against Helenius and also I don't think he looked nervous in any of the Fury fights, at least not to the standard AJ has in his past few. Wilder was and always has been known for his power and he had no problem in trying to unleash that in his last fight right from the off.

 

[Kazi]

If I’m in AJ’s camp there is no way I’m letting him get in a ring with Wilder. He can still have a solid few more pay days to pad him out but Wilder is all wrong for him.

AJ is a very average “boxer” which is his style now, he’s still leagues ahead of Wilder on that front though. But Wilder can hit harder than anything AJ has ever taken, I just think Wilder would blast through this tentative AJ we have now and I doubt AJ is willing to fight fire with fire anymore.

It’s very clear they’re cashing out AJ. Everyone knows it except probably AJ himself.

 

[Plastic Evra]

The commenters I was listening on recently wondered how many fights AJ still had in him and I think they said something like 3 tops. Seems that was too optimistic still.

I wish they'd finally get on with that mirage of the Saudi mega-event. I know it's slowly happening (Usyk signed some deal over there, right ?) maybe once everyone cashed out their final checks the heavyweight division can finally move on.

 

[Lay]

He's one loss away from retirement I reckon, which will probably be against Wilder.

 

[DixieDean]

Heavyweights can fight for a long time. 33 would be no age to retire but AJ is mega rich so I dunno if he would if he loses the next fight.

For the wilder fight, AJ must be aggressive from the off and go for the KO from the first minute. He'll have to take a huge risk, but I've seen Wilder backed up by weaker punches than AJ. And if they tie up, the uppercut could be huge for him.

 

[TwoSheds]

He always looks worried when he steps into the ring. Combined with the shit banter and some of the cryptic remarks about injuries over the years it makes me wonder if AJ suffered some proper brain damage against Ruiz or something. If so, I have to really question why he wants to fight, he must have earned untold millions over the years, just retire.

 

[SambaBoy]

Who do you think would have won the fight if Whyte didn't fail his drug test?

I feel Whyte would have put it on him and eventually broke him down as I can't see AJ taking the risks and I don't think he's good enough to keep Whyte at arms length with his boxing ability.

 

[Gentleman Jim]

I think Whyte would have beat him.

A prime Whyte would have.
He doesn't have enough left to get it done now

 

[pocco]

Who do you think would have won the fight if Whyte didn't fail his drug test?

I feel Whyte would have put it on him and eventually broke him down as I can't see AJ taking the risks and I don't think he's good enough to keep Whyte at arms length with his boxing ability.

Whyte is in a similar position to AJ now in that he's a bit damaged. But he certainly could have beat AJ on that display.

 

[Gentleman Jim]

If I’m in AJ’s camp there is no way I’m letting him get in a ring with Wilder. He can still have a solid few more pay days to pad him out but Wilder is all wrong for him.

AJ is a very average “boxer” which is his style now, he’s still leagues ahead of Wilder on that front though. But Wilder can hit harder than anything AJ has ever taken, I just think Wilder would blast through this tentative AJ we have now and I doubt AJ is willing to fight fire with fire anymore.

Agree.
Fairly sure Wilder is good enough to hang with him until he puts the lights out finisher on AJ.
Joshua should be hoping for more domestic dust ups against the likes of Dubois, Clarke, Fisher and maybe Joyce rather than running with the big dogs.
His time has been and gone.

 

[Leg-End]

Someone said it earlier, AJ just radiates nervous energy in the ring now, Wilder would pounce all over it. AJ pre-Ruiz probably accepts it’s a connect first fight and just goes for it, my fear is AJ now thinks he could box to a win like Fury and he doesn’t have it in his locker.

If AJ dodged Wilders big punches for 12 rounds and gets a decision it would be a miracle.

 

[JP77]

But it is true? Fury dominated him for three fights and before that he fought Ortiz who had won every single round until Wilder landed the shot
If people can point to 4 rounds he’s won in the last four fights Id be shocked
(Edit I don’t include his last comeback fight to be fair, same way I don’t really count Joshua’s knockout last night)

Wilder is no world class boxer but he's an absolute warrior with insane power that's capable of taking shots as well. And most importantly like somebody pointed out before, it's a confidence thing. Wilder may not have fought much but his whole demeanour and personality oozes confidence, he clearly believes in himself. He won't come to box Joshua, he will come to take his head off. Meanwhile I honestly believe Joshua will come to try to box Wilder instead of fully going toe to toe, which is a terrible strategy because he's not technically good enough to make it work. Joshua is going in against guys like Helenius and Franklin and trying to outbox them, he's stepped away from what actually made him successful in the first place. Wilder meanwhile knows his strength and goes in at lightning speed. He did get out boxed for the most part against Ortiz but still survived and beat him twice. Joshua's face looked beat up against Helenius ffs because he's trying to box with him instead of going in there and putting it on him. If Wilder get's the openings that the likes of Helenius and others have, he'll have a field day and it's clear Joshua's chin is probably the most suspect out of every top heavyweight.

It just feels like a huge fall from grace. A guy that was being marketed by Eddie Hearn as some great olympic athlete and 'good' all around guy to make millions and millions for Hearn, who was protected quite a lot in the media. As soon as he got knocked out all of that changed. Bizarre interviews, doesn't give a shit about what the fans think, atmospheres at the fights getting worst and worst, no longer 'mr nice guy' and is being marketed completely different, completely stepped away from the style that got him to the top and so on. At least with the likes of Wilder it's what you see is what you get, with Joshua it felt fake and a complete money grab and marketing con from day one which has now gone down the shitter which is why we are seeing more and more mental post fight interviews and more and more crazy comments from him, the mask is off and he doesn't give a shit anymore.

 

[The Cat]

Didn't he say he was gonna be boxing's first billionaire?

Not happening now.

 

[Abraxas]

What a mouthpiece Frank Warren is. Just seen ol' fisheyes coming out with nonsense about how if Joshua beats Wilder it doesn't matter. Then in the same breath he suggests Joshua isn't going to win. Apparently he's a bit too dense to realise the inconsistency of his own internal logic there. Oh alright Frank let's not bother with Wilder/Joshua then, rubbish fight - why don't we see Joshua v Stipe Miocic.

He has some cheek even coming out with that to be honest as his man fights a cage fighter in what is essentially a glorified exhibition.

Stop talking a good game and put the fecking fights on that we want to see in the first place. If these fellas were half as good at putting on the fights (i.e. Fury/Joshua which should have been made aeons ago) as they are at trying to discredit rivals and talk rubbish we'd have a thriving sport.

 

[M15 Red.]

What a mouthpiece Frank Warren is. Just seen ol' fisheyes coming out with nonsense about how if Joshua beats Wilder it doesn't matter. Then in the same breath he suggests Joshua isn't going to win. Apparently he's a bit too dense to realise the inconsistency of his own internal logic there. Oh alright Frank let's not bother with Wilder/Joshua then, rubbish fight - why don't we see Joshua v Stipe Miocic.

He has some cheek even coming out with that to be honest as his man fights a cage fighter in what is essentially a glorified exhibition.

Stop talking a good game and put the fecking fights on that we want to see in the first place. If these fellas were half as good at putting on the fights (i.e. Fury/Joshua which should have been made aeons ago) as they are at trying to discredit rivals and talk rubbish we'd have a thriving sport.

Uber drivers. Rock climbers. Sand miners.

We sent contracts to em all.

 

[LDUred]

Got to give Dubois credit, he looks in the best possible shape for this fight. He usually comes in at 240 but being closer to 230 seems a much wiser move than coming in heavy.

Usyk didn't look as ripped as he has looked since stepping up. Complacency might play a part here because there is no real hype around this fight.