The relative strength of the Premier League

Wumminator

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The league as a spectacle is far stronger than the others and the level of competition each week is higher. That's at the expense of overall quality though as the top teams in the other major leagues can run away with their leagues and focus their attention on preparing for European competition. Just look at the goal differences year on year, which is a better indicator than points imo of how strong/weak competition is in a league. For example its a joke in Spain how much difference there is between some of the teams. Barcelona and Madrid frequently get into the 70s and 80s. That just couldn't happen now in the Premier League.
Finally a thoughtful post, I'm not sure that I agree goal difference is a better measure that points, but the fact that teams can relax before playing in Europe is a massive help.
 

Cina

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The league as a spectacle is far stronger than the others and the level of competition each week is higher. That's at the expense of overall quality though as the top teams in the other major leagues can run away with their leagues and focus their attention on preparing for European competition. Just look at the goal differences year on year, which is a better indicator than points imo of how strong/weak competition is in a league. For example its a joke in Spain how much difference there is between some of the teams. Barcelona and Madrid frequently get into the 70s and 80s. That just couldn't happen now in the Premier League.
Barca and Madrid would do the exact same in the PL because they're amazing teams. Just like we used to do the same when we were a great team.
 

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I think the PL is strong. Too strong almost. You may be able to attribute the poor performances in Europe of our top sides down to the fact that for the most part the top clubs in Germany, Italy and Spain get relatively easy rides each weekend. Our top clubs don't often have than luxury, unless they're playing Aston fecking Villa.
Yeah I'm coming to that in a minute. The fact that we've got such a competitive league is of course a detriment in a cup competition.
 

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Barca and Madrid would do the exact same in the PL because they're amazing teams. Just like we used to do the same when we were a great team.
We have never ever ever ran away with the league like they are doing on a consistent basis.
 

soap

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Barca and Madrid would do the exact same in the PL because they're amazing teams. Just like we used to do the same when we were a great team.
Either of them would win the league easily, I doubt they'd rack up as big a GD though.
 

hubbuh

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It's insanely competitive and very entertaining. Don't watch foreign leagues so can't comment on that, but their top teams blow us out of the water at the moment. Wouldn't swap though.
 

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It's insanely competitive and very entertaining. Don't watch foreign leagues so can't comment on that, but their top teams blow us out of the water at the moment. Wouldn't swap though.
That's an interesting point, I am guessing the majority of football fans wouldn't swap.
 

Cina

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Yeah I'm coming to that in a minute. The fact that we've got such a competitive league is of course a detriment in a cup competition.
Barcelona won it by 2 points last season and Atetico won it on the last game of the season the previous year.

Are you implying that despite that, these clubs can simply afford to prioritize Europe?

"Hey, guys, we're two points clear, don't worry about the league, easy feckin' peasy"
 

Wumminator

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Barcelona won it by 2 points last season and Atetico won it on the last game of the season the previous year.

Are you implying that despite that, these clubs 'take it easy' in the league?

"Hey, guys, we're two points clear, don't worry about the league, easy feckin' peasy"
I'm implying that most of the games are over by half time and thus the team can relax more for the remainder of the game.

Edit: Which would be supported by the fact that lower league clubs have weaker squad.
 

Rado_N

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We have never ever ever ran away with the league like they are doing on a consistent basis.
Barca are currently 7 points ahead of second place, whilst Real are third.

We won the league by 18 points in 2000 and 10 points in 2001.
 

Cina

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I'm implying that most of the games are over by half time and thus the team can relax more for the remainder of the game.
Are you though Twigg, are you really? Cause that's not actually what you said, is it Twigg? What you said was:

We have never ever ever ran away with the league like they are doing on a consistent basis.
Which you were wrong on, cause we did the last time we won the thing. You're also saying 'ran away with', not 'took it easy in the second half cause they were winning comfortably'. I can see how you'd mix up the two, though, it's hard to grasp such complex things.
 

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Barca are currently 7 points ahead of second place, whilst Real are third.

We won the league by 18 points in 2000 and 10 points in 2001.
That

a) Isn't consistent
and
b) Doesn't take into account the teams who are in third and fourth as well.
 

Dante

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The Premier League has weakened because of the current obsession with 'modern football'. I'll make a thread about it in the next couple of days and school everyone on why I'm right.
 

Wumminator

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Are you though Twigg, are you really? Cause that's not actually what you said, is it Twigg? What you said was:



Which you were wrong on, cause we did the last time we won the thing. You're also saying 'ran away with', not 'took it easy in the second half cause they were winning comfortably'.
That's not consistently doing it is it? Had we consistently placed above other teams relatively easily?

Again it's always black and white with you. Looking for clever little snippets to get :lol:. If you look at our relative performance to second place, third place and fourth place we have never been as far ahead of the pack as Barce and Real in Spain as of the last decade or so.
 

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I'm implying that most of the games are over by half time and thus the team can relax more for the remainder of the game.

Edit: Which would be supported by the fact that lower league clubs have weaker squad.
Or that their top clubs have incredibly talented attackers who never stop looking to ad more goals. You cannot just look at it from your POV.
 

Rado_N

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That

a) Isn't consistent
and
b) Doesn't take into account the teams who are in third and fourth as well.
You said we've "never ever" run away with it like they do.

You need to stop making statements that are fundamentally wrong.
 

Cina

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That's not consistently doing it is it? Had we consistently placed above other teams relatively easily?
But you didn't say consistently. You said we never have.

We did three years ago!
 

Cina

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Results 1: Posted by Cina.

I said we never have on a consistent basis. Why even argue about something so small?
No you didn't. You said we never have, and that they do it on a consistent basis.
We have never ever ever ran away with the league like they are doing on a consistent basis.
Hell, even that statement is just plain old wrong if it is what you meant!

Barca ran away with it once (2012/13) in the last five years. Is that consistent? Although if you consider that consistent it does explain why you love Welbeck so much, to be fair.
 

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Results 1: Posted by Cina.

I said we never have on a consistent basis. Why even argue about something so small?
Ffs you disingenuous irritant, you said we've never done what they do consistently.

You're quickly shown to be wrong (again) so are now trying to say you meant we haven't don't it consistently.
 

Wumminator

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Or that their top clubs have incredibly talented attackers who never stop looking to ad more goals. You cannot just look at it from your POV.
I'm not just looking from my point of view. Let's compare some of the talented attackers who have played in both leagues:

Ronaldo goals for Manchester United:

50 apps 9 goals
47/12
53/23
49/42
53/26

Real Madrid
35/33
54/53
55/60
55/55
47/51

Do we think he got better, or he joined a better team or the standard he was facing dropped?
 

Hostekule

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I'm not just looking from my point of view. Let's compare some of the talented attackers who have played in both leagues:

Ronaldo goals for Manchester United:

50 apps 9 goals
47/12
53/23
49/42
53/26

Real Madrid
35/33
54/53
55/60
55/55
47/51

Do we think he got better, or he joined a better team or the standard he was facing dropped?
He became more focused on and better at scoring goals.
 

finneh

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I do agree that the strength of the mid - low teams in the Premier League means nowadays the top teams struggle to rotate to the same degree, which causes some problems in Europe. It'd be interesting also to know the amount of injuries in Spain compared to the Premier League, as I don't tend to see Real/Barce/Atletico with 10+ players out injured. Whether that's due to the intensity and the aforementioned fatigue I'm not sure.

I think in terms of players from 4th to 20th place the teams in the Premier League are clearly miles ahead. Not only the following players who would be the best players at their respective continental teams: the likes of Martial, Smalling, DDG, Schweinsteiger, Mata, Shaqiri, half the City team, Lukaku, Stones, Barkley, Butland, Payet etc. Also the level of players below them that are still very good would become standout players in the comparative team across Europe (the likes of Schneiderlin, Mane, Darmian, Otamendi, Depay, Coleman, Baines, Bojan, Arnautovic etc).

It's somewhat irrelevant though, but what is certain is that the harder and more grueling the domestic campaign is, the harder it is to compete strongly in another competition as well. When the Premier League had 4 strong teams and 16 ranging from awful to mediocre it was far easier to manage a squad to fight on 2-3 fronts.

The top teams are nowhere near the likes of Bayern, Barcelona and Real Madrid, though. Although again the goal difference that those teams amass every season is a level never before seen in the PL, that along with the regularity that you see teams winning by 5 or 6+ goals...
 
Last edited:

Balu

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I expect this thread to have:
- at least 3 users saying 'this stuff goes in circles'
- someone claiming that the competitivness of the PL is the reason why the teams struggle in Europe
- someone to expose the above as bullshit
- 2 users bringing up the missing winter break
- 5 users asking why the missing winter break didn't hinder the PL from 2005-2011
- a lot of angry Bundesliga fans
- a lot of laughing smileys directed at Twigginater
It seems as if by now more than enough United fans get angry, so the Bundesliga fans can relax. It's a bit of a shame though that I can't make any 'lack of winterbreak' jokes more now that we're in March. In September and October it was quite hilarious when some people used it as an excuse for the underwhelming performances by English clubs in Europe.
 

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I'm not just looking from my point of view. Let's compare some of the talented attackers who have played in both leagues:

Ronaldo goals for Manchester United:

50 apps 9 goals
47/12
53/23
49/42
53/26

Real Madrid
35/33
54/53
55/60
55/55
47/51

Do we think he got better, or he joined a better team or the standard he was facing dropped?
Of course he got better when he joined Real Madrid. Only a blind man would deny it. Are you fecking serious when you take into account his goals when he was a youngster at Utd and didn't transform into a goalscoring player ?
 

Wumminator

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It seems as if by now more than enough United fans get angry, so the Bundesliga fans can relax. It's a bit of a shame though that I can't make any 'lack of winterbreak' jokes more now that we're in March. In September and October it was quite hilarious when some people used it as an excuse for the underwhelming performances by English clubs in Europe.
Honest question.

Are you worried about the future state of your league getting left behind massively?
 

Cina

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Of course he got better when he joined Real Madrid. Only a blind man would deny it.
The most hilarious thing about those stats is that they show how he got much better for us, too. As if somehow that was suddenly going to stop when he moved to Real Madrid, aged 24.
 

senorgregster

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I'm not just looking from my point of view. Let's compare some of the talented attackers who have played in both leagues:

Ronaldo goals for Manchester United:

50 apps 9 goals
47/12
53/23
49/42
53/26

Real Madrid
35/33
54/53
55/60
55/55
47/51

Do we think he got better, or he joined a better team or the standard he was facing dropped?
Take a look at his goals in European competition. Same trend.
 

Wumminator

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I'm gonna stoop to your dumb level. Yes he got better as he became the best player in the world 2 more times.
I don't think he improved as a player that much. Certainly not to an extent those records show. I believe he joined a team who would go on to dominate games more than United ever did
 

Amethyst

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Regarding Twigginator's point about La Liga teams running away with the league:

La Liga 14/15: Barcelona 94, Madrid 92, 2 point gap
La Liga 13/14: Atletico 90, Barcelona 87, 3 points gap
La Liga 12/13: Barcelona 100, Madrid 85, 15 point gap
La Liga 11/12: Madrid 100, Barcelona 91, 9 point gap

La Liga 10/11: Barcelona 96, Madrid 92, 4 point gap
La Liga 09/10: Barcelona 99, Madrid 96, 3 point gap
La Liga 08/09: Barcelona 87, Madrid 78, 9 point gap
La Liga 07/08: Madrid 85, Villarreal 77, 8 point gap

La Liga 06/07: Madrid 76, Barcelona 76, 0 point gap
La Liga 05/06: Barcelona 82, Madrid 70, 12 point gap

Premier 14/15: Chelsea 87, City 79, 9 point gap
Premier 13/14: City 86, Liverpool 84, 2 point gap
Premier 12/13: United 89, City 78, 11 point gap
Premier 11/12: City 89, United 89, 0 point gap
Premier 10/11: United 80, Chelsea 71, 9 point gap
Premier 09/10: Chelsea 86, United 85, 1 point gap
Premier 08/09: United 90, Liverpool 86, 4 point gap
Premier 07/08: United 87, Chelsea 85, 2 point gap
Premier 06/07: United 89, Chelsea 83, 6 point gap
Premier 05/06: Chelsea 91, United 83, 8 point gap

Bold is where a team won by more than 5 points.
 

11101

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Barca and Madrid would do the exact same in the PL because they're amazing teams. Just like we used to do the same when we were a great team.
Even in 2008 arguably our best ever season we only managed +58. Last year both Barcelona and Madrid broke 80, Barcelona almost 90. The relatively poor season before both were still in the 60s. The season before that, both in the 80s again.