If either you or skizzo drafts any combo with those three in the future you are going to regret this post
The Road Trip Draft Grand Finale: Indnyc vs Skizzo/Pat_Mustard
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If either you or skizzo drafts any combo with those three in the future you are going to regret this post
Imo that is debatable.. I don't disagree with your general point but we aren't really comparing apples to apples.. Beckenbauer is a great player and his link up with Muller is brilliant but in Charlton you have someone who can (and has done) slow him down quite a bit
Between Law and Best you could have off games but in general the goal scoring between the two has been pretty consistent even though it dipped a bit in 1966/67.. Add the fact that Charlton's output really didn't dip and he is consistent in scoring goals, assisting and defending imo makes the sum greater than the parts.
On the Rivaldo part, the 2002 world cup was 1 tournament while we are comparing 5-6 seasons of Best and Law together.. Again imo not a completely fair comparison
@Pat_Mustard I don't think we are recreating that exact United side here. For draft purposes, we always assume they were at their peak...which would vastly inflate the stats that they achieved in real life.
I do agree that they had interpersonal problems, but I don't see it as significant enough to bring any question on their ability to work together at highest levels.
I do agree that they had interpersonal problems, but I don't see it as significant enough to bring any question on their ability to work together at highest levels.
If either you or skizzo drafts any combo with those three in the future you are going to regret this post
Yeah, I'll give it a few years now before I attempt a Trinity-based team myself
To be fair there is some merit in your arguments but I don’t think it’s too bad.. There is enough evidence that they should work togetherYeah, I'll give it a few years now before I attempt a Trinity-based team myself
That season Milan played a narrow system (usually 4-3-2-1 or 4-3-1-2) with Rivaldo operating centrally, so the head-to-head probably isn't relevant.
Gone for SkizzoPat here. As good as the trinity+Giggs looks, their frontline has real heavyweights of the game which would absolutely get on like a house on fire IMO.
Rivaldo-Laudrup is a lovely combo, unplayable really with Carlos securing the width and ruling out any unwanted constraints on their best game. Muller fits extremely well with both, and then Matthews provides a more traditional outside play... and he gave Nilton hell when already an OAP.
Both defensive setups sport excellent individuals but, again, see theirs as more nuanced and fit-for-(multiple)-purpose.
And the oft overlooked keeper nails it. I rate Fillol, but Schmeichel is a different cup of tea altogether.
Rivaldo-Laudrup is a lovely combo, unplayable really with Carlos securing the width and ruling out any unwanted constraints on their best game. Muller fits extremely well with both, and then Matthews provides a more traditional outside play... and he gave Nilton hell when already an OAP.
Both defensive setups sport excellent individuals but, again, see theirs as more nuanced and fit-for-(multiple)-purpose.
And the oft overlooked keeper nails it. I rate Fillol, but Schmeichel is a different cup of tea altogether.
I think I was fair enough in my initial post but as ever as I've doubled down on my point I've lost a lot of the nuance. They'll form a lethal and multi-faceted attacking unit together without a doubt, just as they did in real life. All I wanted to get across is that it wasn't quite as flawless as us Utd supporters would like to believe, or quite as seamless a fit as the absolute best proven combos.
There’s always the element of imagining how things would play out, and obviously the recreating of teams and certain setups takes players at their peak.
That being said, you can’t always just factor that in and take it for granted. On the flip side, as Pat and @antohan pointed out, we have Matthews who, as way past his peak, tore one of those opposition GOAT full backs a new one. Those should factor in just as heavily into the debate as what Best may or may not do against Carlos. Especially when Matthews being a creative outlet has more ends to the means in terms of Rivaldo getting on the end, or, the absolute GOAT finisher in Muller.
Big game player who would thrive having service wide from Matthews, through balls linked in from Laudrup, and another high level finisher to draw some attention for him to find space.
Matthews against Nilton and feeding Muller is arguably a greater threat than Best facing Carlos and trying to supply Law. Especially when you then have to consider how Beckenbauer would effect the game going forward, taking Sir Bobby away from the attacking third and making him focus elsewhere.
Just to add to the point about head to heads, let's not forget that Rivaldo has good pedigree against a Maldini-led defence, scoring a typically blistering big-match hat trick here and outfoxing Maldini himself to create room for the late equaliser:
Two stunning free kick goals there too, and as the best set piece specialist on the pitch here by a distance could you really rule out him scoring the winner here from a free kick?
Just using up my few allowed posts to respond to a few critiques.
Best vs Carlos is an avenue, but as Pat has pointed out, Nilton has been ACTUALLY given a torrid time by the winger he’s facing here, and that was when Matthews was well beyond his prime.
I think it’s not outlandish to say that a better route to goal is Matthews beating Nilton again, and supplying the assists for (arguably) the greatest goal scorer of all time to finish in the box, esppecislly as Maldini would need to come cover for Matthews, leaving Mcgrath to try and stop the runs of Muller or Rivaldo lurking.
With Carlos able to offer width, Rivaldo working the inside left and playing Off a goat striker, Laudrup playing off the attackers, and Matthews proven against the full back he’s up against, we have a much more multi-faceted attack and routes to goal. That’s not even taking into account Neeskens and his impact, or Beckenbauer popping up all over the field as he was famous for.
Taking into account all of those attacking angles, I feel we’re better versed to break it open, and better equipped to shut things down with our central spine f necessary.
On top of that, Neeskens and Rivaldo, as well as Roberto Carlos would all be fancying having a pop at goal from distance when the opportunity arises.
And in a game of small margins, having the better keeper between the sticks, especially when it’s a colossus like Schmeichel, doesn’t hurt either. Especially with his distribution to set us on the front foot by throwing it out side to an advancing Carlos, Neeskens Et al.
And, God forbid I forget to mention Beckenbauer/Muller for more than a few hours, another obscure demolition job by Muller with Beckenbauer heavily involved as well. There's actually a goal from a free kick by Beckenbauer inexplicably culled from the footage 
And just a quick last post so it’s not a double team, and I really don’t want to critique Indy too much as he has plenty of our favorites.
For the comments about matchups and focusing on what Best might do to Carlos...there’s actual matchups we can look at that would potentially swing a close match in our favour.
1. Matthews vs Nilton. Past his prime he was still twisting and turning Nilton and giving him a torrid time.
2. As Pat posted just above, Rivaldo showing his stuff against a Milan led defense.
3. Dear Kaiser and Muller against Sir Bobby. Obviously a slightly different set up and circumstance, but as Indy pointed out..Charlton almost exclusively tracked Beckenbauer, taking away from his own game in the process. With Charlton not running the midfield and creating, a lot falls onto the shoulders of just Best. Yes he can have an impact, but compared to the multi-faceted attack we have, we can count on our head to head battles, as well as Neeskens/Laudrup/Matthews/Beckenbauer all to have a hand in being able to create.
4. Lastly, in a game of fine margins, we have the greatest goal scorer, and the better keeper, as well as the best pure DM to keep things locked up.
For the comments about matchups and focusing on what Best might do to Carlos...there’s actual matchups we can look at that would potentially swing a close match in our favour.
1. Matthews vs Nilton. Past his prime he was still twisting and turning Nilton and giving him a torrid time.
2. As Pat posted just above, Rivaldo showing his stuff against a Milan led defense.
3. Dear Kaiser and Muller against Sir Bobby. Obviously a slightly different set up and circumstance, but as Indy pointed out..Charlton almost exclusively tracked Beckenbauer, taking away from his own game in the process. With Charlton not running the midfield and creating, a lot falls onto the shoulders of just Best. Yes he can have an impact, but compared to the multi-faceted attack we have, we can count on our head to head battles, as well as Neeskens/Laudrup/Matthews/Beckenbauer all to have a hand in being able to create.
4. Lastly, in a game of fine margins, we have the greatest goal scorer, and the better keeper, as well as the best pure DM to keep things locked up.
Sorry haven't been able to contribute in the last couple of hours.. On the bolded part when Charlton man marked Beckenbauer he still had pretty decent offensive contribution including an assist for the first goal.
I would expect him to continue to have a good contribution offensively in this game..
Running into a meeting now and most likely the game will be done by the time i am back... Good luck for the last 30-40 minutes...
Congratulations @Indnyc ! Great drafting and nice to see some well overdue appreciation for some of our club legends, even if I'll forever forth be the bastard that donned the black hat to slate the Trinity .
.You always were. So no change.
But still very good selling of Matthews. You nearly had me changing my vote. Hard luck.Fantastic build around the Trinity @Indnyc Congratulations!
Also, some of our more crackpot ideas for the final, both based around all-out attack and pressing Indy back as far as possible. Both basically conceived as a a result of Neeskens ability to play at RB/RWB, and our muppet cravings to squeeze another big name into the team
Bring in Tigana as our final reinforcement:
Bring in Gento instead and go full mentalist:
I kind of regret not just trying that one
Bring in Tigana as our final reinforcement:
Bring in Gento instead and go full mentalist:
I kind of regret not just trying that one
You always were. So no change.
Fantastic build around the Trinity @Indnyc Congratulations!
And now to devote my energies full-time towards screwing you in the sheep draft Congratulations @Indnyc
Congratulations @Indnyc ! Great drafting and nice to see some well overdue appreciation for some of our club legends, even if I'll forever forth be the bastard that donned the black hat to slate the Trinity
You always were. So no change.
Fantastic build around the Trinity @Indnyc Congratulations!
Cheers guys.. I had a blast drafting the team and so many times i wanted to change the team but just stuck with tried and tested formula..
Also, i really should get an AM next time.. Both Semi Finals and in the Finals i had no idea about the Santos record with Garrincha and Matthews
Shouldn't have started him@Moby great draft idea and really good moderating. Thanks for setting it up.. I had a lot of fun
Also, some of our more crackpot ideas for the final, both based around all-out attack and pressing Indy back as far as possible. Both basically conceived as a a result of Neeskens ability to play at RB/RWB, and our muppet cravings to squeeze another big name into the team
Bring in Tigana as our final reinforcement:
Bring in Gento instead and go full mentalist:
I kind of regret not just trying that one
Speaking of mental tactics.. I almost played this one.. England 1966 Final
Also.. I think @harms was incredibly unlucky to lose the quarter finals.. I was dreading playing him and feel that match i should've lost
Cheers guys.. I had a blast drafting the team and so many times i wanted to change the team but just stuck with tried and tested formula..
Also, i really should get an AM next time.. Both Semi Finals and in the Finals i had no idea about the Santos record with Garrincha and Matthews
That's the second match that I've had that Matthews vs Nilton record going in my favour and I've lost them both...I'm going to have a fecking meltdown if I ever end up with Nilton in my team vs Matthews and it loses me the match
. Speaking of mental tactics.. I almost played this one.. England 1966 Final
I quite like that tbh. Giggs, especially as he matured, would have been a good fit as an attacking LCM who could still drift wide, and I rated his defensive contribution highly. Best seems a more awkward fit in that uber-industrious Alan Ball role, but I think he was more capable and keen defensively in his earlier career than he's given credit for from what I've read.
Well done @Indnyc ! First time I see Uniteed homage wins a draft. Done a grand job assessing our usual weaknesses as full backs.
That's the second match that I've had that Matthews vs Nilton record going in my favour and I've lost them both...I'm going to have a fecking meltdown if I ever end up with Nilton in my team vs Matthews and it loses me the match
I quite like that tbh. Giggs, especially as he matured, would have been a good fit as an attacking LCM who could still drift wide, and I rated his defensive contribution highly. Best seems a more awkward fit in that uber-industrious Alan Ball role, but I think he was more capable and keen defensively in his earlier career than he's given credit for from what I've read.
Yeah it would have been a hard sell for Best.. The others fit perfectly
Thanks mate
Congrats buddy. Great team!
Congrats @Indnyc felt a bit dirty trying to pick holes at your team when @Pat_Mustard and I have picked so many of them in the past
Enjoy the sheep you have coming your way now
Enjoy the sheep you have coming your way now
@Pat_Mustard Didn't want to influence the managers contribution earlier, but I don't think that match video you posted was that much relevant to this game.
Brazil was playing a back 3 with Nilton as LCB when they faced Stanley Matthews. Both teams were playing the WM and it was not really peak Nilton. He still was good enough to handle Hamrin who is still a GOAT winger. It was only in 1958 when Brazil switched to 4-2-4 that he came into peak form. Before then, he still was the captain and an astute defender, but what made him a GOAT of the position was really 1958 when he pioneered the role of a attacking fullback. The whole 4-2-4 formation was in itself quite novel at that time and a quantum leap ahead of the WM and many teams were not equipped to handle attacking defenders. Santos was one of the few who really came into his being and made that formation a success.
Hypothetically had he faced Matthews in a back 4, he'd not be that exposed as he was in that video between Matthews and Haynes. Imo Matthews will still have been the better player, but it would have been far closer and not a one sided drubbing as in 1956. I'm leaning towards that game being a aberration against Nilton and not really indicative of a pattern of superiority by Matthews.
Brazil was playing a back 3 with Nilton as LCB when they faced Stanley Matthews. Both teams were playing the WM and it was not really peak Nilton. He still was good enough to handle Hamrin who is still a GOAT winger. It was only in 1958 when Brazil switched to 4-2-4 that he came into peak form. Before then, he still was the captain and an astute defender, but what made him a GOAT of the position was really 1958 when he pioneered the role of a attacking fullback. The whole 4-2-4 formation was in itself quite novel at that time and a quantum leap ahead of the WM and many teams were not equipped to handle attacking defenders. Santos was one of the few who really came into his being and made that formation a success.
Hypothetically had he faced Matthews in a back 4, he'd not be that exposed as he was in that video between Matthews and Haynes. Imo Matthews will still have been the better player, but it would have been far closer and not a one sided drubbing as in 1956. I'm leaning towards that game being a aberration against Nilton and not really indicative of a pattern of superiority by Matthews.
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Forgot to thank you for running this mate, and also @harms @Enigma_87 and even that unsavoury @Edgar Allan Pillow fellow for helping set up the matches. Drafting concept was intriguing as feck and there were some great match threads too.
Congrats @Indnyc felt a bit dirty trying to pick holes at your team when @Pat_Mustard and I have picked so many of them in the past
Enjoy the sheep you have coming your way now
Nah man.. Absolutely fair comments.. I really enjoyed the back and forth.. There weren’t too many shenanigans
I am sure I am getting a sheep in the current round
Also, some of our more crackpot ideas for the final, both based around all-out attack and pressing Indy back as far as possible. Both basically conceived as a a result of Neeskens ability to play at RB/RWB, and our muppet cravings to squeeze another big name into the team
Bring in Tigana as our final reinforcement:
Bring in Gento instead and go full mentalist:
I kind of regret not just trying that one
I think the Gento option is a good one. I'd just have him instead of Rivaldo in your current formation. That probably just a personal choice though as I'm not a big Rivaldo fan.
Great post mate. I appreciate you not wanting to prejudice the game against us by bringing this up earlier but always feel free to post away - anything that leads to fresh discussion and good debate is all good in my book. Where are you finding that Brazil only switched to a 4-2-4 in 1958? I've been reading through various sources and it seems to me like a gradual shift towards that formation rather than something that can be pinponted exactly like Conte changing Chelsea from 4-3-3 to 3-4-3 mid-match then promptly romping to a league title.
Rob Sweeney said:
In any case, I flip-flop between the relative importance of individual duels versus formation and tactics, but I think it's obvious that if Matthews was able to beat Nilton at will then it will destabilize any formation, and maybe the tactical issue becomes how do you stop Matthews getting the ball in the first place, and when he does is it better to have pressed high and kept him further way from goal, or dropped back to allow for a more compact shape with less room behind the defence. And that's when I realise afresh that I basically know feck all about football
We were worried about the reduction in goal threat and big match gravitas there. Gento was a fine goalscorer himself but not on Rivaldo's level, and the more I look back at Rivaldo's career the more he seemed to step up in big matches, even if it didn't necessarily result in a win for his team like those great performances I posted in the 3-3 draws vs Utd and AC Milan. It's strange how contributing to these drafts makes you constantly reassess players. I'd have carved out my own kidney for Utd to sign him around 2000, then I think I subsequently underrated him for a while simply as I didn't/don't think he's quite on the level of his predecessor as world's best SS Roberto Baggio, and now I'm right back to thinking the sun shines out of his arse again.
They didn't switch in 1958, but rather 1958 was the earliest successful version of the formation. It started early 50s by the likes of Bukovi and Guttman (who took this to Brazil) at Sao Paolo FC. Palmeriras and Santos were also trying out rudimentary version of the formations. Again 1958 Brazil did not field a flat back 4. In 1958 Bellini was a midfielder who dropped back but moved up as necessary (kind of a quasi libero role) and this meant Didi who was a IF dropped back as pure midfielder. Santos had more authority to move up which was assisted by having Zagallo who dropped back at his side. Between them they probably established the first true flank attack that didn't have true outside forwards at that time. It was a assymetrical formation made possible by balance of players.
Anyway, tactics history aside, Nilton when facing Matthews was purely in a back 3 of a WM and Matthews was just too hot to handle as he was on form. So was Haynes. Between them they roasted Nilton. Matthews imo is probably the 2nd best RW of all time after Garrincha and the gap between them is not that big too. In a back 4, Nilton would have had more cover and not left as exposed as you can see in the videos. Post 1958 Nilton's game changed more to resember modern version of fullbacks and he'd have been better placed to handle Matthews in that version. Again, I expect Matthews to have upper hand...but it won't be a rout.
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Cheers Pat. Excellent drafting from you and @Skizzo as usual.
Really enjoyed different strategies from the managers as this format had the room for drawing your own path. The result in the end being pretty interesting that it wasn't the ones who went from the SA riches up front or the ones who straight away hit the European big hitters from that concentrated talent pool of Germany, Holland, France, Italy etc but the one who decided to go with the usually underrated British big names was victorious in the end.
Congratulations. Well deserved.
Cheers! It was a very strong team, but quite a boring one (and I wholeheartedly agree with the point that @Invictus made after the game regarding most of the Maradona's teams on here). The only downside is that I've lost my biggest motivation to finish a few compilations (Schuster, Blokhin, Elkjær) in time
And thanks to @Moby for the idea, I really enjoyed it.