In particular it shows how much Scholes could control games. Rarely did it feel like we were being overrun in midfield in those days.
The shape of our midfield...
- Thread starter Rozay
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Didn't we have a discussion about this pre Spurs game and I told you nearly the same, that this combination will be flawed defensively against any team that's willing to attack or press ?
Unfortunately both Bruno and Pogba can't be good in defensively to play them in flat 4-3-3. The only way is to drop one of them against any team who wants to press and inserts more workaholic midfielder.
Unfortunately both Bruno and Pogba can't be good in defensively to play them in flat 4-3-3. The only way is to drop one of them against any team who wants to press and inserts more workaholic midfielder.
Precisely. It is not the quality of the individuals, but the ridiculousness of the system. I don't think I have ever seen a team be successful playing with one CM stuck in the middle all alone. There is no need for Matic to drop deeper than the CBs which I have seen all too often in the past few games.
The best sides constantly move and give the guy in possession options. The dilly dallying on the ball from Pogba is mostly down to there being no immediately visible option. The trio are well balanced but tactically this approach is just asking to be overrun.
This has more to do with Matic not being as mobile as a player in that position should be. Put Ndidi there for example and look how stable the midfield would look.
Honestly, Fernandes likes to play so high up the pitch that he'd probably be best suited to a false 9 role. Something like this could work next season:
https://www.buildlineup.com/shared/5f15ae8c4e5ac404cc46c3d8
https://www.buildlineup.com/shared/5f15ae8c4e5ac404cc46c3d8
Could be on the coaches, but looks to me like Matic is actively retreating from pressure. He's the most stiff and the least nimble footballer I have ever seen.
Getting him out of the team for a mobile midfielder could indeed go a long way.
If the CM was of the required standard I would against the stronger teams.
The movement on the team depends on coaching yes, it also relies on the players ability to move. While the shape of the midfield in it self is essential, the players ability to move within those frames is what makes or break it. I'm saying it's not totally dependant on the quality of an individual player, but their ability to learn and work within that system. Norwich manager can get a workhorse to press and push and buy into the collective effort, but can he get Lukaku or Berbatov to do it? If one or two players can't keep up with the collective, the first press will struggle and it'll have a knock on effect throughout the team.
I do think we're not the finished article in terms of our shape and tactics, but it's so many things I like about our intention and I really enjoy it when it works, so I wont pretend I know the reasons for when it's not working. It might be coaching, shape, or any other reason or a combination of those but when it works we do have a nice shape because our press works, our players like Wan Bissaka has more time to pick a decent pass and contribute in building up play despite him struggling heavy recently under pressure, and at the same rate our attackers ability to win the ball high up the pitch increases with our shape when it works, which further gives them incentive to keep running around pressing. When the team isn't pushing up to support their pressure, they basically run for no reason which probably feels unnecessary and inspire them to drop their head.
Which is why I said that I like Bruno and the attackers higher up the pitch in attack, it's not like he isn't helping out defensively. We just need our defenders to get through the first line of pressure, then create a triangle with the receiving midfielder and a fullback, and one of the attackers to build. We have done it successfully and I like it, but against Chelsea we never created triangles. Pogba didn't move in the right spaces at the right time, missed his passes, played with his head down and Matic and our defenders were horribly slow, pondering on the ball. Without quicker transitions it doesn't work, without switching play it doesn't work, so having players with certain qualities is essential to the system working on a regular basis. I just don't agree it's something inherently wrong with our shape in it self. It's different than others sure but don't think it's clear it's inferior.
1. Both of those players are so good at positioning, quick passing, keeping possession and tempo control. Natural even.
2. Carrick had intelligent defending abilities namely screenings, reading of passes and interceptions.
3. Rio and VDS at the back to organise defense and help them defensively, possession and build-up. VDS is really good at this which is often not credited.
4. Later on, soon enough Vida and Evra cavalries arrived + Brown later on meaning it's fine if the midfield is bypass, fortress is at the back to stop attacks.
5. Energy and combative inputs from Park and Rooney especially, and Fletcher + Hargreaves at RM to help centre midfield.
6. Giggs is more of a semi-CM at those times even if he play on the wing, he'll moved centrally at times acting as 3rd CM more than winger. He's too fit to do both roles.
7. Scholes vision and tempo control are world-class levels so much so it's ridiculously good.
Not that hard to see how they made it works vs any midfield of 3.
Also later on, the play deeper and deeper, double-pivot CDM which helps. Earlier on, they're more of dual CMs.
Overall, the system is efficient -- shape of midfield and structure of team are really clear and consistently good. They really work on the team positioning and team play aspects, and had the individual talents and self-organisation skills to boot.
When we are under pressure matic drops to deep. He needs to hold his position.
Its up to the defenders to find him. When he drops in there is no one for the cbs or him to pass to.
He has to stay up in MF and bruno needs to drop a bit to allow us to beat the press
Agreed.
I would like to see Fred to be given a few chances to play with the first team which hasn't yet happened since the restart.
Exactly this.
For some reason they're all ignoring that Bruno works pretty hard tracking back.
It was a lineup that was ok when we were drilling teams 3-0 every game.
Surely watching Fred now, when we see how Pogba and Bruno play, shows how much we'd made do before.
A bit unfair on Fred after what he's shown before lockdown.
Since the restart he has started against Norwich, Spurs and Chelsea where the latter are two of the strongest sides we faced, it doesn't help that he's been in and out of games, whilst trying to gain match fitness he's had to play with reshuffled teams.
Bruno’s average position is too high up, Matic’s is too low.
What abut the position of Pogba? Is he supposed to not be closer to both Bruno and Matic? Seems he just keeps his position where the average is, which means he can't get the ball from the defenders and can't give passes to attackers.
He's done well this season, but the big issue is he doesn't score any, doesn't create any, and isn't good at holding, or defending.
That's hard to feature regularly for our aspirations.
A midfielder in the middle of the field? Matic slots into the worlds slowest back 3 a lot, and Bruno goes into false striker mode. Pogba’s positioning might not be brilliant, but at least he’s still the only where he should be. There or thereabout, at least.
Yea, Matic spends most of the match running away from midfield. It leaves us one man short in the middle.
The sooner he is replaced by someone more comfortable in the middle, the better for the team as a whole.
. I could do with a kitchen fitter, maybe he'd be good at that. As he clearly isn't any good at football.Gets around a bit and has some pashun.
But it's when you see the main three guys see that he's a real step down unfortunately.
We need midfielders who don't cough up the ball the moment they're put under a slight bit of pressure. We need to be controlling the ball, and not against weaker teams, but against the big boys too. We may be capable of beating the best teams, but we need to do it when it matters most, like the game against Chelsea. They totally dominated us all throughout the game other than for short periods here and there. This shite hitting teams on the break has to stop. we need to dominate or at least go toe to toe against the bigger teams to win.
This season Fred and Pogba have been dispossessed 26 times in the EPL. The difference is Fred has played 29 games and Pogba 14!.
People will say that is because Pogba is more creative, dispossessed is actually someone taking the ball of the player. Which happened in the Southampton game, I'm not saying drop Pogba for Fred I'm just adding a perspective.
It's strange people are blaming this on the Pogba/Bruno/Matic partnership, when it is what happened when Fred was on the field and it is actually what was a core problem in our torrid experience against Norwich in the FA Cup. Then Southampton and Palace did as well once they realized the weakness.
Bar Pogba and McTominay, our midfielders almost never, ever hold position centrally. Fred always seems to end up wide on the left, Bruno is too deep or too high, and there is so much space in the center.
I've not been the biggest fan of Pogba in the past, but for all his ill discipline, he actually holds his position and plays to his role. I'm not sure what he's supposed to do when he's being pressed by a triangle of players and without a passing option. To be fair, he tries to play his way out instead of passing it backwards.
Matic, as has been realized, sits basically as a CB, and Bruno has a habit of going too far forward or too far back. Against Chelsea, there were a few times at the end that he was pinging balls forward from in between left and center back when we were deep.
This left us with one midfielder centrally against three. What?
Personally, and I could be wrong, Bruno's best moments from open play have come from sitting further behind Martial and Co. Lately, he's got closer and closer to Martial and Rashford on that left side and it's just causing congestion. When he sits a little further back and makes runs across attacking midfield is when he's been a real threat(and this could arguably be because teams have sat so deep, that he's forced to find space, which isn't a requirement against top teams).
As for Fred, he tends to vacate his position a ton of times to either chase the player on the ball or shift out to the left, and I cannot fathom why.
Another problem is a lot of our players simply just like to ball watch, and simply not offer anything to the player on the ball.
I'm of the opinion that Paul Pogba has enough about him to dictate play in central midfield but he needs to be coached properly. I feel like all our problems can be solved with better coaching and disicipline, tbh. That's not an attack on Ole. I'm just wondering why we're still having this issue when it's been a concern for a while now.
Bar Pogba and McTominay, our midfielders almost never, ever hold position centrally. Fred always seems to end up wide on the left, Bruno is too deep or too high, and there is so much space in the center.
I've not been the biggest fan of Pogba in the past, but for all his ill discipline, he actually holds his position and plays to his role. I'm not sure what he's supposed to do when he's being pressed by a triangle of players and without a passing option. To be fair, he tries to play his way out instead of passing it backwards.
Matic, as has been realized, sits basically as a CB, and Bruno has a habit of going too far forward or too far back. Against Chelsea, there were a few times at the end that he was pinging balls forward from in between left and center back when we were deep.
This left us with one midfielder centrally against three. What?
Personally, and I could be wrong, Bruno's best moments from open play have come from sitting further behind Martial and Co. Lately, he's got closer and closer to Martial and Rashford on that left side and it's just causing congestion. When he sits a little further back and makes runs across attacking midfield is when he's been a real threat(and this could arguably be because teams have sat so deep, that he's forced to find space, which isn't a requirement against top teams).
As for Fred, he tends to vacate his position a ton of times to either chase the player on the ball or shift out to the left, and I cannot fathom why.
Another problem is a lot of our players simply just like to ball watch, and simply not offer anything to the player on the ball.
I'm of the opinion that Paul Pogba has enough about him to dictate play in central midfield but he needs to be coached properly. I feel like all our problems can be solved with better coaching and disicipline, tbh. That's not an attack on Ole. I'm just wondering why we're still having this issue when it's been a concern for a while now.
Also pressing when Scholes was playing was nowhere near as sophisticated as it is today. That's not to devalue his abilities, just noting that midfield 2 setup almost certainly wouldn't work in 2020.In particular it shows how much Scholes could control games. Rarely did it feel like we were being overrun in midfield in those days.
Bruno simply has to play in front of the opposition midfield as opposed to behind them. Then it'll be easier to consistently get him on the ball. Once play develops the he can move into attacking areas. It's pretty much what took Zidane's football to the next level back in them days.
Not blaming one player over the other. They all stroke the ball so well....until they are put under the slightest bit of pressure. We as a team lose our balls and cough up the ball to the opposition like a Sunday league team.
It's doesn't work with Matic, Pogba and Bruno at all. No midfield control whatsoever.
Not necessarily saying it's a Bruno, Matic, Pogba issue. Once again, we can't be sure.
Our midfield almost always looks disjointed and disorganized. None of them seem to have any tactical role in the side.
Bruno was all over the place, Pogba camped the halfway line for around 60-70 minutes, as he has for a while now and Matic was getting ahead of Pogba and giving the ball away.
Is there an actual plan or tactical setup to the way we play?
Our midfield almost always looks disjointed and disorganized. None of them seem to have any tactical role in the side.
Bruno was all over the place, Pogba camped the halfway line for around 60-70 minutes, as he has for a while now and Matic was getting ahead of Pogba and giving the ball away.
Is there an actual plan or tactical setup to the way we play?
The midfield too pedestrian, and Pogba has just been average for a while now.
Noble had the freedom of the midfield, neither of Matic or Pogba could deal with his energy and running power, dominated the game. Our trio are fine when they can dominate the game, but against teams who can put them on the back foot we really miss the more combative qualities of Fred/McTominay.
Couldn't agree more. We were winning midfield battle with Fred and McTominay in midfield. Now we are struggling against anyone who is having any energy in midfield, because we've lost ours.
At this point Fred would be a better option than Pogba as Paul seems too heavy and slow. Matic and Bruno are undroppable imo.
I think more people are starting to take notice of the midfield shape now.
Now that it's confirmed that Fred makes the same movements in possession as Matic, we can be sure it's a tactical instruction as opposed to a problem with Matic.
Either way, I'm not a fan of it at all.
Now that it's confirmed that Fred makes the same movements in possession as Matic, we can be sure it's a tactical instruction as opposed to a problem with Matic.
Either way, I'm not a fan of it at all.
I don’t agree personally, I think Fred gets a lot closer to Pogba than Matic does. He of course also has the added benefit of being able to cover more ground than Nemanja, which is a huge plus, as Pogba isn’t particularly mobile over short-distances.
In the 1st half, Fred was constantly going back to form a back 3 with Maguire and Bailly. That changed a bit in the 2nd half and he started to get much closer to Pogba.
It's definitely a tactic and my suspicion this is Carrick's idea as he has gone on record before praising LVG for doing the same with him.
It's definitely a tactic and my suspicion this is Carrick's idea as he has gone on record before praising LVG for doing the same with him.
I’m not a massive fan of the current system. We are really struggling to get consistent balls into Martial and Greenwood and I think that is because the spaces between our lines are too far apart. Ideally the defence push higher to allow us ball further up the pitch but I imagine we are trying to prevent balls over the top of Maguire and Lindelöf. Personally I would try inverting the fullbacks to cover the midfield while asking Pogba and Bruno to move further to the flanks and inside channels in more of a 4-3-3. At the moment we are creating overloads which are falling to our fullbacks and they just don’t have the ability to hurt he opposition. We have seen previously that Pogba can operate on the left hand side effectively and form triangles with Martial and Rashford and I think Bruno and Greenwood could do the same on the right.
I just hope this can be put down as growing pains into an evolution of a new tactical system by Ole and his team as he surely knows we can improve this further. With our quality up top it’s a shame we aren’t able to get them in more dangerous positions regularly.
I just hope this can be put down as growing pains into an evolution of a new tactical system by Ole and his team as he surely knows we can improve this further. With our quality up top it’s a shame we aren’t able to get them in more dangerous positions regularly.
We've now seen Fred, McTominay and Matic drop between the CBs in the build up though, that much must be a tactical instruction. It almost led to a colossal error last night too, I wish we'd stop doing it.
And only then we started to play proper football. No idea why Ole doesn't let us play that way from the start. Very irritating.
Of course, I just feel that positionally on the whole, Fred seems to be closer to Pogba than Matic is during a game.
This is also before we discuss the Bruno situation. He is alongside Martial for the main. Ole needs to sort it out. We are outnumbered centrally, and Pogba is being expected to spend large parts of the match alone in the middle. We will get destroyed against a decent and tactically astute side like this. A good continental team like Sevilla, if we play them, will play through us.
I have the same feeling. The way our midfield is shaped up simply doesn't work, at least since we've been figured out. Teams have figured that pressing us makes us struggle because of how far apart our midfielders are from each other udring our building phase from the back and we're supposed to rely on our fullbacks as outlets for our build up but they aren't suited for that.
Pogba is basically left as a sole midfield while Fred drop to form a back 3. Meanwhile Bruno is staying up close to Martial but galaxies away from Pogba leaving him alone in midfield and constantly finding himself against 2 players pressing him when they try to get the ball to him from the back.
This system has been a nightmare for our front players because they struggle to get into games due to lack of service. Since our midfield players stand far apart from each other and our fullbacks who are supposed to assume a major role in our build up aren't really good at that, it means we struggle to play the ball to out front players and resort to either long balls from Maguire to one of our fullback who's pushed up(because they can't build from down back) and these are low probability passes(Though to be honest yesterday Maguire was quite successful with his long balls to fullbacks who'd pushed up).
Either way, this shape simply isn't working. We should play a 433. Bruno drops deeper which will allow Pogba a bit more freedom and less restraint while the front 3 play on the same line. This however will need a more mobile midfield player alongside Pogba than Matic and in this case we could try Fred.