We definitely need a CDM more than anybody else, McT and Fred both are more of proverbial box to box midfielders and not naturally adapt that intercepting play, Matic is old and an't be relied upon to play throughout the season, we need a signing like Ndidi. If not Ndidi than VdB as he can play the deep lying play-maker role.
The shape of our midfield...
- Thread starter Rozay
- Start date
We've seen a lot of times recently Matic dropping between Maguire and Lindelof to start attacks from deep.
One of Maguire's biggest strengths is supposedly his distribution from deep. So why in the name do we need Matic dropping into the backline when we're building from deep? Lindelof is decent with the ball also. I think Matic dropping deep is just over complicating things, he needs to play 10 yards higher up the pitch alongside Pogba.
When we are playing out from the back, what I would like to see is Bruno to drop a little deeper, our full backs on the touchline stretching the game, and Pobga and Matic playing a little higher. Maybe one of Rashford or Greenwood should come a little deeper and narrower between the lines, to offer another option, while keeping the game stretched on the other side.
We should be hitting the flanks first time to AWB and Shaw, then pushing the ball back into the middle of the pitch, but having bypassed the original press, and are now maybe 15/20 yards up the pitch with Bruno, Rashford and Greenwood faced towards goal and running at pace, and Matic and Pogba with the game ahead of them instead of constantly receiving the ball in midfield facing their own goal, and having to get turned/beat a man before they can face the play and influence the game.
What we should not be seeing is the ball being pushed wide to AWB and Shaw on the back foot, receiving the ball under pressure just outside their 18 yard box time and time again. If we want to build from deep, you have to expect teams are going to press you and you need to be able to work your way around it.
City are the masters at it, watch how Walker and Mendy play so wide and receive the ball to beat the original rush, and push the ball into KdB and Silve between the lines, who are then able to turn and attack the opposition defense. It happens time and time again. Often you also see KdB into the RW position, allowing Bernardo Silva/Mahrez to drift into that inside forward position. In short, City play in such a way that they can bypass the press, but also are so good at setting up and filling spaces on the pitch that simply discourage the opposition from pressing. Of course, you need players with ability to pull of this high risk tactic.
My main concern is that we are too lethargic in our play to build from deep with intricate passing. Actually, Southampton is a brilliant example of why we set up poorly, but also what we need to do more often funnily enough. On Martial's goal, AWB pushes high and keeps his width, receives the ball and quickly pops it into Pogba, who pushes us up the pitch with a pass to Bruno, and out to Martial. Simple. If you keep your width, you are harder to press because there is more of the pitch for the opposition to occupy.
Basically, Matic is playing to deep, Bruno too high, and Pogba is isolated. I also think Greenwood and Rashford can improve on when to come short vs when to keep their width. Basically, we should look like we're moving forward with the ball as a team, and not see the huge gaps in midfield that we often see, and the distance between our forward line and midfield is shocking at times. We're so open when the ball is turned over against teams that transition quickly.
One of Maguire's biggest strengths is supposedly his distribution from deep. So why in the name do we need Matic dropping into the backline when we're building from deep? Lindelof is decent with the ball also. I think Matic dropping deep is just over complicating things, he needs to play 10 yards higher up the pitch alongside Pogba.
When we are playing out from the back, what I would like to see is Bruno to drop a little deeper, our full backs on the touchline stretching the game, and Pobga and Matic playing a little higher. Maybe one of Rashford or Greenwood should come a little deeper and narrower between the lines, to offer another option, while keeping the game stretched on the other side.
We should be hitting the flanks first time to AWB and Shaw, then pushing the ball back into the middle of the pitch, but having bypassed the original press, and are now maybe 15/20 yards up the pitch with Bruno, Rashford and Greenwood faced towards goal and running at pace, and Matic and Pogba with the game ahead of them instead of constantly receiving the ball in midfield facing their own goal, and having to get turned/beat a man before they can face the play and influence the game.
What we should not be seeing is the ball being pushed wide to AWB and Shaw on the back foot, receiving the ball under pressure just outside their 18 yard box time and time again. If we want to build from deep, you have to expect teams are going to press you and you need to be able to work your way around it.
City are the masters at it, watch how Walker and Mendy play so wide and receive the ball to beat the original rush, and push the ball into KdB and Silve between the lines, who are then able to turn and attack the opposition defense. It happens time and time again. Often you also see KdB into the RW position, allowing Bernardo Silva/Mahrez to drift into that inside forward position. In short, City play in such a way that they can bypass the press, but also are so good at setting up and filling spaces on the pitch that simply discourage the opposition from pressing. Of course, you need players with ability to pull of this high risk tactic.
My main concern is that we are too lethargic in our play to build from deep with intricate passing. Actually, Southampton is a brilliant example of why we set up poorly, but also what we need to do more often funnily enough. On Martial's goal, AWB pushes high and keeps his width, receives the ball and quickly pops it into Pogba, who pushes us up the pitch with a pass to Bruno, and out to Martial. Simple. If you keep your width, you are harder to press because there is more of the pitch for the opposition to occupy.
Basically, Matic is playing to deep, Bruno too high, and Pogba is isolated. I also think Greenwood and Rashford can improve on when to come short vs when to keep their width. Basically, we should look like we're moving forward with the ball as a team, and not see the huge gaps in midfield that we often see, and the distance between our forward line and midfield is shocking at times. We're so open when the ball is turned over against teams that transition quickly.
Matic is dropping much too deep for my liking.
If he can't receive under pressure and either beat his player or move the ball quickly, then he shouldn't be starting.
We've basically only got Pogba in the midfield at times.
Alot to do this summer. A right winger, a central midfielder and a centre back are all needed. Yet I don't know how we will find 3 players for our starting lineup with what is likely lesser transfer funds due to the economic enviornment.
It will be a test for our scouts.
If he can't receive under pressure and either beat his player or move the ball quickly, then he shouldn't be starting.
We've basically only got Pogba in the midfield at times.
Alot to do this summer. A right winger, a central midfielder and a centre back are all needed. Yet I don't know how we will find 3 players for our starting lineup with what is likely lesser transfer funds due to the economic enviornment.
It will be a test for our scouts.
Based on form it will beat most teams.
Why I dont get the massive debate to break it down based mostly on tonight.
Dont get me wrong, I've thought it need another midfielder, an upgrade, but as its stands not many teams in premier can match us, going by stats alone we dominate pretty much every team with ball.
No one needs to bring out the 'undefeated' card.
Midfield and forward line for me the strongest part of our game. We can bring in players of bench who can keep it tight as well if we need too.
Bruno's at his best operating high and between the lines in classic no.10 positions so I don't think changing the setup to have him deeper and with the play ahead of him more often is appealing. His energy and intelligence dovetailing with the attackers has been a breath of fresh air, he simply wasn't his usual self against Southampton and it affected our play badly. The main issue in that particular game was the movement of the front four overall - it was the worst I can recall since the 3-3 against Sheffield United.
Generally, in isolation there's nothing our midfielders do that isn't standard stuff - the holding player dropping alongside the centre backs in build-up and the most advanced player working in conjunction with the striker to press the opposition defenders is commonplace.
Generally, in isolation there's nothing our midfielders do that isn't standard stuff - the holding player dropping alongside the centre backs in build-up and the most advanced player working in conjunction with the striker to press the opposition defenders is commonplace.
It would be nice to bring in a midfielder that can run past a defender and pass the ball well.
Is that so much to ask?
Our current crop are either too immobile (matic) or just don't have a pass in them (Fred, Mctominay).
Is that so much to ask?
Our current crop are either too immobile (matic) or just don't have a pass in them (Fred, Mctominay).
You are right on the fact that Pogba is playing too deep for the liking. His game seems to be bery limited play such role. Unless ofcourse he starts raking fabregas like assists it would be a waste of his talent. I feel Ole doesn't trust his defense that much and hence has both Pogba and Matic play a deep role. Would not be surprised if buying another CB is priority for us this summer.
Have noticed this as well. I think Matic lacks the awareness and speed when receiving the ball on the half turn and therefore drops deeper to face the play.
It's interesting because this is one of the reasons we signed Fred because of his ability to break the lines from that position, but it's clear he hasn't got the ability or we don't fully trust him.
simple reason? which is..?
Even when we win in many previous games, the shape is still poor. Some posters did highlighted it before, but of course it get shot down quickly using the wins as a "cover" o "justification".
I don't agree. We do not rely on individual brilliance to build attacks. If anything our inability to build attacks in certain games seem to stem from too much individualism in certain players. It seems that we've been very successful both against the press and against teams sitting deep when our players instead of playing for themselves actually manages to play for each-other, stay close to each-other and create triangles to move up field. Lately, we've been too slow in midfield with both Maguire and Matic being slow and cumbersome on the left flank, and the same with Pogba and Lindelof on the right. Instead of passing quickly, receiving it back, then switch play and create massive space on the other side they now pass the ball, stop running so they aren't actually making themselves available to create more intricate play and it breaks down with our fullbacks being pressed hard.
However it has been an incredibly effective way of creating chances as we usually have loads each game. I think we suffer with complacency still like we did under Mou with some of these players becoming a shell of themselves under pressure, even Pogba, Matic, Lindelof. For instance, many would agree Pogba plays a vital role and was massively important the last few great games we had before this, yet his importance to this setup now that it's not working correctly seem to be ignored. I was wondering where is head was, he was always a bit late, didn't have his head up, slow decision-making, he didn't create triangles and didn't move actively to create space for others. It seemed random the way he moved, cluttered up our midfield, and our less creatively inclined passers didn't know what to do when he was unavailable in central positions. Same for our fullbacks, when Matic and Maguire especially takes forever on the ball the momentum is gone. They give the ball to the fullback who is now marked and has no good options from his limited angle to create something, he goes back but the defenders still takes forever in switching play, and Pogba is hiding from the responsibility of having to both play centrally and be in position to create triangles with fullback, striker and Bruno.
We might play 4-2-3-1 in attack but in defence is basically a 4-3-3. I swear I see more of Bruno in midfield areas than Pogba at times. Like he won the ball back a few times in defensive position. He is all over the pitch, and as our best attacker and best player he should have that freedom to stay higher up the pitch. If Pogba, Matic could move around, helping out our fullbacks in creating speed in our play, space would open up and when it does, Bruno is in that space, turning quickly with his eyes towards goal or flicking it on to Martial, Rashford or Greenwood and they score. It's been very effective in creating attacks and chances, but similar to Liverpool, our build up require a lot of energy from our midfielders to both play centrally as well as helping out as a passing option when create triangles out wide and sadly they just don't seem to have the legs for this at the moment. I think Fred and McTominay learned to do this effectively earlier in the season, but it does seem demanding. It's not working anyways if midfielders aren't moving and they make their pass and stop playing.
I don't want Bruno deeper in our build up. I want him in and around the box, when he can combine with our attackers and create play where it's most dangerous. I want to have two midfielders that is making themselves available in the build up, capable of quick passing, clever playing out from the back and eventually finding the pass to Bruno or a winger, who at that point should have other players in near proximity as well. Just look at the last goal we scored. Rashford carried the ball himself in that instance but having both Bruno and Martial in the build up created an advantage in a dangerous position. I think it's essential to keep our attackers on fire. If you ask Bruno to drop deep, pretty soon you'll ask Rashford and Martial to do the same and we're back to where we was of having a lot of meaningless possession but nobody in the box when we break through.
Against weaker teams, a MF consisting of Bruno + Pogba may not be a liability, but against good teams with 3 MF, they are doom. Particularly when our CB and keeper fail to take an extra gear, then all those offence is a better defence becomes BS. I still prefer the Fred+Matic partnership when we have better control in the middle.
I already covered them points.
Said we need an upgrade in centre mid. Covered the fact we dominate most teams we play with that midfield and pointed out that massive overreaction at same time based of 1 lose after a big run, must add against a team we beat 3 teams this season with less of a midfield as we currently showed tonight 2nd half
Leaving aside the players, is the actual shape functional for you? In attack and defence, especially when pressing high up the pitch? Does it look well drilled?
My answer to all these is no, which is why I think individual brilliance helps us in key moments of the buildup, and even with the pressing shape. The formation being inefficient and being poorly drilled are two separate issues.
The elephant in the room is that a midfield which contains BOTH Pogba and Bruno cannot work unless each of them adapts their games significantly to allow it to happen. Nobody could get it to work consistently for the Galacticos and it won't work for us.
Passing the buck on to the DM isn't going to change the weaknesses of the system in front of him.
Passing the buck on to the DM isn't going to change the weaknesses of the system in front of him.
I think it's functional I said as much when I alluded to it being the main reason behind our ability to create so many chances in games. I can't ignore the players as what would be the point of that? I think we press very well high up the pitch, as a unit most games, which we didn't do well at all before Ole came so I can't really put the blame on us not pressing great every game on 4-2-3-1 formation. We usually look something like 3-4-1-2 when pressing successfully and we've scored quite a few goals ourselves by forcing mistakes with that setup. For instance Martial was close to scoring from a mistake once again if he wasn't kicked down right outside the penalty area.
Individual brilliance. How do you calculate which action is down to individual brilliance in this equation, and which actions is part of a functional set up? I just don't see a clear connection and think that a further explanation is warranted. How can you leave aside the players, and explain how individual brilliance helps the pressing shape? I certainly don't get what that means. Anyhow, It's just an opinion it's fine either way, but I just don't see it.
This has definitely been a big question mark with Ole - whether he can genuinely build a team that can play possession football. In general I've always felt that he cared little for it and the focus had been firmly on quick snappy attacks and that saw us be at home on the counter and poor when we had most of the ball. Since the Pogba and Bruno partnership came together even our possession play has been very good. But issue is, whether the above system can work against teams that press as well. It just looks really lopsided in these sortof games.
Essentially against the better sides who will press us, we need a playmaker alongside the DM, or Pogba and Bruno both need to fall back into a real midfield. That's why many of us have said for a long time that we need a real playmaking CM which should be a priority.
The formation isn't the issue there. I think you made the wrong timing of screen shot. Maguire can receive a pass from Lindelof if Lindelof is passing the ball to him. There are lot of spaces for Maguire there. Ideally, you want both of the centre back to be more compact with Matic/Fred drops back to cover for Shaw who is going for overlap. With one of our front 4 to drop deep to ask for the ball in the midfield area. If you look at images below, good example how it's supposed to work.
Maybe Mejbri pulls off a Fabregas? 
Mejbri's profile is exactly what this midfield needs IMO. Pogba, Mejbri and a DM would be the most balanced.Maybe Mejbri pulls off a Fabregas?
I agree strongly with this. Our midfield look awful, and I actually think it has been for awhile. A lot longer than our results would indicate. And while you might be right that Pogba is not a good defender, I also think the setup hurts him. In fact, I think it hurts every midfielder. Its very difficult to play in midfield for Man Utd. Its difficult for one of the most gifted players in the world, it is difficult for a very experienced player like Matic and it is difficult for a rookie like McTominay and a player like Fred.
I also think that Bruno really has the ability to play a bit deeper. He seems to be a very intelligent midfielder, and I remember one of his former coaches saying that he in reality was more of a midfielder (probably a bit controversial). I also remember his first game and how well he did against a good side like Wolves.
I also think the shape of our midfield is the solution to a few other threads in here (how we build from the back, how do we beat high press etc). I’m also glad this happens when we have a midfield of Matic, Pogba and Bruno as it would be much easier to blame the players if they were of lower quality. This is not the players. It is the coaching.
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Thanks for tagging me, good read this thread. I will get back to it later today. While I definitely see the points being made for the non-existent midfield, there is another side to that but before I make my case I want to find backing info and evidence. In the words of one famous ex-Mr. Olympia: I'll be back!
I agree for the most part with this, but I do think it's got a lot to do with his defensice attitude too. A few times after coming on yesterdayband losing the ball he doesn't sprint back to try and recover possession. He just trots around expecting someone else to win the ball back.
For some reason he seems to get really viaibly affected when we're losing/having a bad spell in games.
I feel like rather than being able to pull the side up by the scruff of the neck, defensively he seems to sink into a lazy pattern if we're not on the front foot.
We need him for Wednesday. We don’t need him sprinting back in a game that was meaningless and already lost.
4-3-3 has been the way forward for years, yet we constantly have managers playing a 4231 or an absolutely abysmal 352/343.
I agree, I’ve always hated the 4231 it’s so unbalanced. 433 would suit us much better.
Would you drop Bruno for another CM? I ask this because I don't think both Pogba and Bruno would work in a 4-3-3
Agree with the OP the structure of our midfield is terrible and i don't see how we haven't spotted and fixed it already. Worse thing is it seems an intentional tactic.
Bruno needs to play deeper than he is so we're not just relying on Pogba to do the midfield transition.
Bruno needs to play deeper than he is so we're not just relying on Pogba to do the midfield transition.
Worrying about Pogba due to his defensive abilities or lack thereof - we used to play a midfield two which included Paul Scholes!!!
Ole has a difficult job ahead with getting the right players in, we know we need Sancho for RW but the GK, CB, CDM spine really needs an upgrade in order to play the tactics he wants.
I'd personally like an Ndidi type CDM to partner Pogba, even though I prefer Neves, I think Ndidi would partner Pogba better.
Then there is the issue of CBs and GK. GK needs to have much better distribution than De Gea.
Lindelof needs replacing for a player with more pace to compliment Maguire who although not world class is the better of the two and harder to replace.
And finally Ole needs to tell Maguire to hurry the F up and pass the ball!!! He should stand there and scream it everytime Maguire receives it, or have a button he presses that makes it ring round the stadium.
I'm a Maguire apologist to some extent but no player annoys me more with the ball at their feet.
I think it is wrong to complain about Matic dropping deep though, its a good tactic. It allows the CBs to step forward with the ball when required and most importantly spreads the pitch by allowing the Fullbacks to really push up.
The midfield three is tactically fine, but upgrades are required in the positions mentioned to take us to that next level.
Ole has a difficult job ahead with getting the right players in, we know we need Sancho for RW but the GK, CB, CDM spine really needs an upgrade in order to play the tactics he wants.
I'd personally like an Ndidi type CDM to partner Pogba, even though I prefer Neves, I think Ndidi would partner Pogba better.
Then there is the issue of CBs and GK. GK needs to have much better distribution than De Gea.
Lindelof needs replacing for a player with more pace to compliment Maguire who although not world class is the better of the two and harder to replace.
And finally Ole needs to tell Maguire to hurry the F up and pass the ball!!! He should stand there and scream it everytime Maguire receives it, or have a button he presses that makes it ring round the stadium.
I'm a Maguire apologist to some extent but no player annoys me more with the ball at their feet.
I think it is wrong to complain about Matic dropping deep though, its a good tactic. It allows the CBs to step forward with the ball when required and most importantly spreads the pitch by allowing the Fullbacks to really push up.
The midfield three is tactically fine, but upgrades are required in the positions mentioned to take us to that next level.
We used to do a lot of things. Scholes played in a two when it was 2v2 in midfield. Admittedly, Leicester won the PL with a 442, but their two were both defensive midfielders.
Rather than dropping him, would it not make more sense to play him in a different role? I've never really seen him play for his country or previous team, but did he always play as a real attacking midfielder? He has all the qualities to play as an actual midfielder, it's just a question of discipline and surely that's something that can be instilled, with the right coaching.
Agreed but Pogba is playing in a three, and isn't bad defensively, although obviously not strong in that department.
My point was simply that its hardly a concern, we have more defensive fullbacks that really should offer us that security defensively and both Pogba and Bruno put in a shift defensively and pressure forces mistakes.
Scholes and Carrick played as midfield 2 when teams started playing 3 midfielders. I have no idea how they made it to work btw. Most of the time in SAF time we played with 2 CMs with Rooney as #10.
I couldnt disagree more. Pogba plays that role for France with Kante, we need that type of CDM next to him to make it work. The other role is then generally a free role and Bruno's work rate make the point moot.
Pogba, Bruno, Matic doesnt work.
Pogba, Bruno, Ndidi + a better quality CB works best.
We've started talking about players again...
@MikeKing this great post from the pressing thread sums up why our midfield buildup is subpar and regularly relies on individual brilliance.
I'm surprised at the consideration of Matic as the weakest link in the shape of the midfield. In fact, I find it quite reassuring that he takes the ball away from Maguire who, despite being decent on the ball, can actually severely hamper the speed of build up. For all those considering Matic to be slowing down our play, please remember his role in our beautiful counter-attacking goal against Brighton.
Coming to the original point of the thread, I feel that the formation towards 4-2-3-1 has become quite rigid for our midfield. While it has worked brilliantly against the smaller sides, but in tough matches, when we're pressed, we're short by a few numbers. We need to become more flexible towards our shape and I hope Ole has paid attention to that. It seems quite an obvious solution that Bruno should drop back and we need to break the press by having players who are good on the ball to be closer so we can break the press and quickly release any of our front 3. In fact, I was expecting us to learn from the initial part of the Southampton game and utilize it in the second half. I know that we will get there eventually but I feel these are the situations which separate Ole from the best tactical coaches.
Coming to the original point of the thread, I feel that the formation towards 4-2-3-1 has become quite rigid for our midfield. While it has worked brilliantly against the smaller sides, but in tough matches, when we're pressed, we're short by a few numbers. We need to become more flexible towards our shape and I hope Ole has paid attention to that. It seems quite an obvious solution that Bruno should drop back and we need to break the press by having players who are good on the ball to be closer so we can break the press and quickly release any of our front 3. In fact, I was expecting us to learn from the initial part of the Southampton game and utilize it in the second half. I know that we will get there eventually but I feel these are the situations which separate Ole from the best tactical coaches.
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I don't think Bruno has all the qualities to play as an 'actual midfielder'. His ball retention is a big problem, for a start, and his erratic game makes him suited for nowhere but the final third.
That's horrible. We are meant to be playing four in defence, two in midfield, and four in attack which isn't a good set-up as it is.
But when Matic keeps dropping into defence, it becomes five in defence, four in attack and literally only Pogba in midfield - that's a recipe for disaster in my eyes.
We've faced two decent teams in Southampton and Chelsea since we started using the current set-up, and no wonder we folded in both games. The defenders had no one to pass to. A central midfielder in a pivot should never be coming as deep and as wide as Matic does.
The Bruno/Pogba/Matic is effective against teams who sit back, and we have seen this since the restart. Against teams that press us however, we end up playing a one man midfield of Pogba while Matic is playing as a third CB and bruno is too further forward. No team can successfully build up play with that set up. If Matic cannot receive the ball and start play from midfield, he should not be starting against high pressing teams. If that is an actual strategy from the coaching staff, as I have seen McT comically attempt the same positioning, I don't even know what to say. Also, our defensive partnership is supposed to be good on the ball, so why does a midfielder have to go and help them build play, and then none of the three moves further ahead to actually provide a progressive passing option to reach the midfield. Ultimately I believe our issues with the press begin and end with Maguire and Matic.
We had Hargreaves/Park or even Fletcher on the wing very often.
Not very often. Park is not a 3rd CM. He was winger/AM. We had Ronaldo Nani/Giggs Rooney Tevez in the attack. Later we had Valencia Nani Welbeck Rooney RVP/Berbatov/Hernandez in the attack.