The shape of our midfield...

[Andersons Dietician]

I think that the imbalance of our midfield will be made obvious against Sevilla. They are going to apply constant pressure against our defence and with Bruno, Pogba and Matic in the team we will not have enough mobility to cope with it. In some respects I am looking forward to the game because I hope that this will be the tipping point for our management to see this. Strange though that they cannot see what we have all been seeing. Or perhaps they just don't trust any of our backup players to be able to improve the situation. But I agree with many other posters on here, we need to choose between Bruno and Pogba.

I don’t think we need to choose between either. Bruno just needs to drop back a little and play less as a 10 and more like an 8. Matic is just going to be Matic but I think Shaw is a big loss as he fills in as the other midfielder which allowed Pogba and Bruno more freedom.

Greenwood and Rashford are quite direct in how they want to play. They don’t particularly hold the ball or have the patience to work moves and move the team up The field. Martial seems quite happy to do either but when Mata came on someone who will get his foot on the ball and not rush things or try for the killer option all the time we improved in my opinion.

We just need Shaw back in my opinion to allow Pogba and Bruno to do more up field.

 

[Dante]

People need to realise that Matic dropping between the CBs is a perfectly reasonable tactic that teams have been playing for years. He's not the best player in the world, but he's doing okay at the role.

Busquets and Toure have been doing it for Barcelona since 2009: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/09...kes-modern-centre-half-role-a-little-further/

It was also a feature for the Spain national team: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/07/16/sergio-busquets-world-cup-final/

And there was also this article written about it in 2010: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/04/22/is-the-sweeper-set-for-a-return-to-prominence/

I know that there's a particularly prominent Pogba fanclub on here that thinks he walks on water. But he's human like all our other players with good points and bad points. Better than most, but not perfect.

In the system Ole is playing, it's been Pogba's responsibility as our most naturally gifted ball-player to be the first midfielder to offer himself for transitions. The problem is that he's doing a relatively poor job of it at the moment, even though his skillset should be well suited to the task. More coaching will improve him, I'm sure. But a lot of those errors are things he needs to sort out himself with his concentration. Those errors aren't going to disappear if we change system, either.

Maybe next season Ole will decide to change system again. But there's only so much a manager can do about accommodating players who are bad fits for each other. Perhaps Bruno could drop back. Perhaps we could buy a better ball-carrying DM. But I think there are fundamentally better fixes that can be made for zero money without sacrificing in other areas.

 

[thepolice123]

The double pivot midfield set-up favours Matic and Bruno, it masks their weakness and gives us more defensive stability. None of them are good in the triangle three man midfield. Matic has struggled to play the lone anchor man position ever since he lost his legs, this problem will be compounded with Bruno and Pogba in front of him in the 433 formation. Bruno is also unproven in that #8 role.

The only solution is to sacrifice Pogba and have him play deeper to support Matic and free Fernandes to play up front. He is the more proven player in his own weaker position (as seen for France) compared to his other midfield partners. His best position, as said many times here, is the left-sided CMF in a 433.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I think the issue is Ole. Barring the few games where it happens on its own, he doesn't seem care at all for possession football. And for me it's the most important aspect to get right for us on the pitch (other than important signings). We've always been good at counter attacking. These players know how to do in their sleep. But no top team can get away with being terrible at possession play and we are distinctly mediocre at it. I've always felt with Ole that the issue with him tactically is that he seems to place little emphasis on possession football. It's all quick quick get forward score goals football. The issue is that a really top team can't merely be based on that, as it'll get found out when the space isn't available.

So yeah, I'd love to see Ole's Manchester United develop into a team that can truly play possession but I've been hoping to see that for the last year and a half so im skeptical it'll happen under this manager. For example let's see if we can dominate the ball against Seville. Would be great to see that happen.

I fully agree with you.

People are on here seem strongly against possession, because of Van Gaal, but I would love possession with purpose.

The way Ole has shaped his midfield lends to the idea that it's all 'quick, get forward, rush forward and score goals'. I think it's a shame, because some of our link-up in the final 3rd is excellent. If we could portray that from the back and in midfield, we'd be a better team.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

People need to realise that Matic dropping between the CBs is a perfectly reasonable tactic that teams have been playing for years. He's not the best player in the world, but he's doing okay at the role.

Busquets and Toure have been doing it for Barcelona since 2009: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/09...kes-modern-centre-half-role-a-little-further/

It was also a feature for the Spain national team: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/07/16/sergio-busquets-world-cup-final/

And there was also this article written about it in 2010: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/04/22/is-the-sweeper-set-for-a-return-to-prominence/

I know that there's a particularly prominent Pogba fanclub on here that thinks he walks on water. But he's human like all our other players with good points and bad points. Better than most, but not perfect.

In the system Ole is playing, it's been Pogba's responsibility as our most naturally gifted ball-player to be the first midfielder to offer himself for transitions. The problem is that he's doing a relatively poor job of it at the moment, even though his skillset should be well suited to the task. More coaching will improve him, I'm sure. But a lot of those errors are things he needs to sort out himself with his concentration. Those errors aren't going to disappear if we change system, either.

Maybe next season Ole will decide to change system again. But there's only so much a manager can do about accommodating players who are bad fits for each other. Perhaps Bruno could drop back. Perhaps we could buy a better ball-carrying DM. But I think there are fundamentally better fixes that can be made for zero money without sacrificing in other areas.

That's not the problem people are having.

The problem is the distance between Pogba and Bruno.

 

[He'sRaldo]

People need to realise that Matic dropping between the CBs is a perfectly reasonable tactic that teams have been playing for years. He's not the best player in the world, but he's doing okay at the role.

Busquets and Toure have been doing it for Barcelona since 2009: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/09...kes-modern-centre-half-role-a-little-further/

It was also a feature for the Spain national team: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/07/16/sergio-busquets-world-cup-final/

And there was also this article written about it in 2010: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/04/22/is-the-sweeper-set-for-a-return-to-prominence/

I know that there's a particularly prominent Pogba fanclub on here that thinks he walks on water. But he's human like all our other players with good points and bad points. Better than most, but not perfect.

In the system Ole is playing, it's been Pogba's responsibility as our most naturally gifted ball-player to be the first midfielder to offer himself for transitions. The problem is that he's doing a relatively poor job of it at the moment, even though his skillset should be well suited to the task. More coaching will improve him, I'm sure. But a lot of those errors are things he needs to sort out himself with his concentration. Those errors aren't going to disappear if we change system, either.

Maybe next season Ole will decide to change system again. But there's only so much a manager can do about accommodating players who are bad fits for each other. Perhaps Bruno could drop back. Perhaps we could buy a better ball-carrying DM. But I think there are fundamentally better fixes that can be made for zero money without sacrificing in other areas.

The articles you gave are all from 2010, a decade ago. The pressing right now is more widespread and better implemented, and a wide 4-4-2 isn't as common now as it was back then. What that means is that the midfield is a lot more important.

Matic dropping back is fine if Fernandes also drops to give another option. The issue is when there's a player in the center by himself against more advanced pressing than what you would face in 2010. You're giving the impression you have something against Pogba, so I won't talk about him specifically. So let's say the player is Fred, Matic, or anyone else. They would most likely still struggle being the lone option in midfield.

Nowadays everyone presses and uses a pressing formation. Even the 4-4-2 is different as it's more narrow and compact. See Southampton's setup with a 4-4-2


They gave us a lot of trouble with that and we couldn't control the mdifield as they were setup to press high and disrupt. With Fernandes playing so far away from the rest of the midfielders we'll be seeing a lot more of that unless it's rectified.

 

[flappyjay]

People need to realise that Matic dropping between the CBs is a perfectly reasonable tactic that teams have been playing for years. He's not the best player in the world, but he's doing okay at the role.

Busquets and Toure have been doing it for Barcelona since 2009: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/09...kes-modern-centre-half-role-a-little-further/

It was also a feature for the Spain national team: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/07/16/sergio-busquets-world-cup-final/

And there was also this article written about it in 2010: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/04/22/is-the-sweeper-set-for-a-return-to-prominence/

I know that there's a particularly prominent Pogba fanclub on here that thinks he walks on water. But he's human like all our other players with good points and bad points. Better than most, but not perfect.

In the system Ole is playing, it's been Pogba's responsibility as our most naturally gifted ball-player to be the first midfielder to offer himself for transitions. The problem is that he's doing a relatively poor job of it at the moment, even though his skillset should be well suited to the task. More coaching will improve him, I'm sure. But a lot of those errors are things he needs to sort out himself with his concentration. Those errors aren't going to disappear if we change system, either.

Maybe next season Ole will decide to change system again. But there's only so much a manager can do about accommodating players who are bad fits for each other. Perhaps Bruno could drop back. Perhaps we could buy a better ball-carrying DM. But I think there are fundamentally better fixes that can be made for zero money without sacrificing in other areas.

We used to do it with Carrick during Lvg era. The teams that do it usually play a 4 3 3 or the fullbacks come in to help in midfield. In our situation Bruno is further forward and Matic is back with the cb's leaving Pogba alone in midfield. Xavi wasn't left alone in midfield when Busquets dropped in between the cb's was he?

 

[OldTrevil]

The reason one of our midfielders dropping into defence is not ideal for us right now is because our fullbacks, especially now that Shaw is out, are not adept and fearless on the ball to join the midfield and be close to Paul to build up play from there. Against pressing teams in particular, you will need at least three midfielders close together during build up to constantly form triangles and passing lanes that can evade the press. Even if Bruno dropped deep to join Pogba, we would still need another ball player close to them when we are being pressed.

 

[Bestietom]

I don’t like it. I know the Pogba/Bruno/Matic combination has a lot of admirers - but it still worries me, especially with how we set up.

I’m not a massive advocate of Pogba playing the role he’s playing. Firstly, I believe he can contribute more with more licence, and secondly, I have concerns about his defending. Not his 'attitude’ or ‘willingness’ to defend, but mainly his ability. I don’t think he’s good enough at it, not for want of trying, and we will be caught out against top pass and love teams.

Then there is Bruno. He’s nominally a midfielder at all, and plays 15/20 yards in front of Pogba. What this does is leaves us 2 against 3 more often than not, and in anything but very easy games, it is an issue. Not even the likes of City - but a game like Southampton at home last week showed this.

Personnel wise, we have a good trio, but the 4-2-3-1 won’t win us titles I don’t think. We are essentially playing two in midfield. I’d much prefer a more classic 433, with Bruno and Pogba both sharing offensive and defensive duties, but giving us 3 bodies and a little more control in the middle of the park.

I agree. I still don't think that Bruno and Fernandes works great for us in the middle.We need 2 workhorse box to box players behind Fernandes.
When the ball is lost up front we are caught in the middle of the field, and top teams will punish us.

 

[Beachryan]

Lots of good points on here, and I really just don't understand seeing that picture of Southampton above why Ole isn't coaching Bruno to come show and help out. It's not like we're trying to play direct to him, or he has any aerial ability whatsoever. Is it purely to conserve his energy?

It feels like we're using tactics that don't suit our players. We're at our most vulnerable right now from our own goal kicks. That's just terrible coaching, especially when it's been obvious for 10 straight matches. With our FBs limitations on the ball, combined with a complete lack of target players, we have to do something different. It's infuriating, the 'plan' at the moment appears to be pray that the opposition tire before we concede a stupid goal.

We have rapid wide players, and virtually never get them to come to the halfway line, and then race behind the defensive line. We have Fernandes who has great feet, and he never shows for Pogba. I have no idea what they're being told to do, except poor Pogba who seems to be in charge of the entire transition, alone, normally battling 3 midfielders and having AWB as a foil.

 

[mancan92]

People need to realise that Matic dropping between the CBs is a perfectly reasonable tactic that teams have been playing for years. He's not the best player in the world, but he's doing okay at the role.

Busquets and Toure have been doing it for Barcelona since 2009: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/09...kes-modern-centre-half-role-a-little-further/

It was also a feature for the Spain national team: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/07/16/sergio-busquets-world-cup-final/

And there was also this article written about it in 2010: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/04/22/is-the-sweeper-set-for-a-return-to-prominence/

I know that there's a particularly prominent Pogba fanclub on here that thinks he walks on water. But he's human like all our other players with good points and bad points. Better than most, but not perfect.

In the system Ole is playing, it's been Pogba's responsibility as our most naturally gifted ball-player to be the first midfielder to offer himself for transitions. The problem is that he's doing a relatively poor job of it at the moment, even though his skillset should be well suited to the task. More coaching will improve him, I'm sure. But a lot of those errors are things he needs to sort out himself with his concentration. Those errors aren't going to disappear if we change system, either.

Maybe next season Ole will decide to change system again. But there's only so much a manager can do about accommodating players who are bad fits for each other. Perhaps Bruno could drop back. Perhaps we could buy a better ball-carrying DM. But I think there are fundamentally better fixes that can be made for zero money without sacrificing in other areas.

Your completely ignoring the fact the teams yiur comparing flooded the midfield. Spain sometimes playing 6 midfielders and Barcelona having full backs dropping in to make extra midfielders. So even when busquets drops in between the two CB he had many options for a forward pass because they would often still outnumber the opposition with players in the middle.

Its got nothing to do with personnel. Especially when you can see we can't control the game even against lesser teams.

Its simple we are always outnumbered in the middle. It's clear as day.

 

[giggs-beckham]

I think the issue is Ole. Barring the few games where it happens on its own, he doesn't seem care at all for possession football. And for me it's the most important aspect to get right for us on the pitch (other than important signings). We've always been good at counter attacking. These players know how to do in their sleep. But no top team can get away with being terrible at possession play and we are distinctly mediocre at it. I've always felt with Ole that the issue with him tactically is that he seems to place little emphasis on possession football. It's all quick quick get forward score goals football. The issue is that a really top team can't merely be based on that, as it'll get found out when the space isn't available.

So yeah, I'd love to see Ole's Manchester United develop into a team that can truly play possession but I've been hoping to see that for the last year and a half so im skeptical it'll happen under this manager. For example let's see if we can dominate the ball against Seville. Would be great to see that happen.

I've been wanting that since the Bilbao games nearly a decade ago. We had a brief spell under LVG which was exciting, but it evaporated. Now under Ole weve gone back to pure counter attack from the good old days.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

The double pivot midfield set-up favours Matic and Bruno, it masks their weakness and gives us more defensive stability. None of them are good in the triangle three man midfield. Matic has struggled to play the lone anchor man position ever since he lost his legs, this problem will be compounded with Bruno and Pogba in front of him in the 433 formation. Bruno is also unproven in that #8 role.

The only solution is to sacrifice Pogba and have him play deeper to support Matic and free Fernandes to play up front. He is the more proven player in his own weaker position (as seen for France) compared to his other midfield partners. His best position, as said many times here, is the left-sided CMF in a 433.

Think it only favors Matic. Matic need partner to provide the legs essentially. But then what's the point with Pogba, the duo still a risk and get passed by easily.

Bruno is unproven but easy to play him as #8 as we know his workrate, football intelligence and actually his ability to listen and follow instructions if needed (he proved this when Ole deployed him as #6 in one game 2nd half before restart). It's not like he's going to create problems and fight with Ole if he's not put in CAM.

Basically it's on Ole for not daring enough to try a different system and as you've said he relied on proven but not really the best positions taking all three into considerations.

Isn't it easy to try 433 with the three of them against the small teams?
Or better yet, since Matic isn't sutable in solo pivot, try Fred or McTominay and couple that with Pogba's improved defensive abiities and Bruno's works, it'll be a good calculated risks in theory.

 

[Trigg]

There has been times when trying to break teams down that I’ve felt Pogba has been too deep.

Its still early days in that partnership though and it can develop and blossom over time.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I've been wanting that since the Bilbao games nearly a decade ago. We had a brief spell under LVG which was exciting, but it evaporated. Now under Ole weve gone back to pure counter attack from the good old days.

Yep same. The football Bilbao played was sensational and I think many of us have wanted us to go progressive for a long time. But I too think that direction ended post LVG.

 

[MikeKing]

If we don't get Sancho, I do think playing someone like Odegaard on the right could work to bridge the gap between AWB, Pogba and Bruno. He is a hybrid between a creative winger and a playmaker like Mata and could easily switch between working as a winger and a b2b midfielder to support Pogba and Bruno.

Triangles
Martial-Greenwood
Pogba-Bruno-Odegaard
Shaw-Matic-AWB

 

[E-mal]

I agree. I still don't think that Bruno and Fernandes works great for us in the middle.We need 2 workhorse box to box players behind Fernandes.
When the ball is lost up front we are caught in the middle of the field, and top teams will punish us.

I don't think Bruno is that special for us to change the personnel of our entire midfield for him. In fact I'd say Pogba is the most important member of our midfield because he is the only one that can do this job to a good standard while he had cover for Bruno stresslessly.


With regards to our midfield, it's very clear Bruno is playing as a second striker and that has affected our ability to play a bit in midfield. This wouldn't be a problem if we pressed high.

To remedy the situation, Bruno either has to play deeper or get full backs good on the ball to help Paul on midfield.

 

[OleTheGreat]

First of all i think we all need to take a tip from the great Barcelona side under Pep Guardiola because i think of that Barca team as the benchmark for all teams that should play basic beautiful football without any real tall players but creating havoc in the opposition half and also never tired of keeping the ball. I've watched the Henry video of YouTube explaining how exactly Guardiola wanted them to play and trust their team mates. They always stayed in their position, played zones where they always waited for the pass and trusted their teammates to make it and boy o boy did it happen every time. I've watched them a lot during the treble winning years and honestly Pep has never found another team of players who could do what that Barca team did. They had players who were clever and such unique players that created chances left right and center any day of the year all year long. I wish Ole had a look at that and stretch the field a little. We get so narrow and sometimes the pattern just gets all clumsy. Play 4-3-3 and do those triangles, play one touch and fast paced football. We are so lethargic on the ball, it makes me queasy. Plus we hardly go for the ball when we don't have it. It's always waiting for the opposition to make a mistake and that often gives opposition the freedom they need and they go on and score. We need to dominate the ball all the time and kill opposition much earlier in the game and only then do we have any chance of making an improvement from 3rd in the table.

 

[FootyGirl88]

I agree. I still don't think that Bruno and Fernandes works great for us in the middle.We need 2 workhorse box to box players behind Fernandes.
When the ball is lost up front we are caught in the middle of the field, and top teams will punish us.

What? They're the same person

 

[Dante]

I just rewatched the Copenhagen game, and one thing I noticed was how the positions Fred took up were different from the positions Matic takes up.

To wit, when Matic plays as the holding midfielder and drops back alongside the CBs, he sits centrally between them (with Maguire on the left of the 3):

But when Fred dropped back, he generally took up a position to the left of the CBs (with Maguire in the middle of the 3):

Clearly, Ole wants a left-footer on the left side when playing out from the back. I think this lends credence to the idea that United are prioritising a left-footed CB because Maguire largely seems to play there when we don't have another left-footer available.

Our transitions out of the back will be helped by having a left footer at LCB. That in turn will make our midfield shape a little bit less of a hindrance.

 

[georgipep]

I just rewatched the Copenhagen game, and one thing I noticed was how the positions Fred took up were different from the positions Matic takes up.

To wit, when Matic plays as the holding midfielder and drops back alongside the CBs, he sits centrally between them (with Maguire on the left of the 3):

But when Fred dropped back, he generally took up a position to the left of the CBs (with Maguire in the middle of the 3):

Clearly, Ole wants a left-footer on the left side when playing out from the back. I think this lends credence to the idea that United are prioritising a left-footed CB because Maguire largely seems to play there when we don't have another left-footer available.

Our transitions out of the back will be helped by having a left footer at LCB. That in turn will make our midfield shape a little bit less of a hindrance.

Interesting observation. Why do you think Matić plays in the middle while being left footed though? Is it because he lacks pace and thus if exposed he can be "rescued" by the CBs on either side of him?

And second question: do you think if we buy a left-footed CB it is for playing with 3 at the back or to displace Lindelof/Bailly and move Maguire to RCB?

 

[Dante]

Interesting observation. Why do you think Matić plays in the middle while being left footed though? Is it because he lacks pace and thus if exposed he can be "rescued" by the CBs on either side of him?

And second question: do you think if we buy a left-footed CB it is for playing with 3 at the back or to displace Lindelof/Bailly and move Maguire to RCB?

A left footer at LCB finds it easier to pass out from the back when he's being pressured.

When the ball is on the left side of the pitch, the right wing becomes relatively free. So a left footer will find that the long ball over the top is usually on. It's the same reason Pogba plays on the right of midfield two (so he can spray passes), but on the left of a midfield three (so he can cut in to take shots on goal).

If we buy a left footed CB, Lindelof would be dropped and Maguire would almost certainly play at RCB. I guess an alternative is to leave our two CBs as they are and buy a left footed holding midfielder to do the job that Fred tried to do against Copenhagen. I think either system could work.

If the new player has pace as well, then all the better. But it's not like we concede lots of goals on the break. Our lack of pace at the back gets overstated, imo. We concede more from set pieces than anything. A tall LCB or holding midfielder would give us more.

 

[He'sRaldo]

If the new player has pace as well, then all the better. But it's not like we concede lots of goals on the break. Our lack of pace at the back gets overstated, imo. We concede more from set pieces than anything. A tall LCB or holding midfielder would give us more.

We usually don't play a high line on defence, we drop back pretty quickly. I'd like to see us get a quick CB so we can press higher up the pitch without fear of being caught out.

Why do you think Ole gave Matic and Fred different instructions when both are left footed?

 

[georgipep]

A left footer at LCB finds it easier to pass out from the back when he's being pressured.

When the ball is on the left side of the pitch, the right wing becomes relatively free. So a left footer will find that the long ball over the top is usually on. It's the same reason Pogba plays on the right of midfield two (so he can spray passes), but on the left of a midfield three (so he can cut in to take shots on goal).

If we buy a left footed CB, Lindelof would be dropped and Maguire would almost certainly play at RCB. I guess an alternative is to leave our two CBs as they are and buy a left footed holding midfielder to do the job that Fred tried to do against Copenhagen. I think either system could work.

If the new player has pace as well, then all the better. But it's not like we concede lots of goals on the break. Our lack of pace at the back gets overstated, imo. We concede more from set pieces than anything. A tall LCB or holding midfielder would give us more.

I know the benefits of having a left-footed CB but was wondering of your view on why Matić goes in the middle and not on the left like Fred. Matić is left-footed as well. My guess is the lack of pace which means Maguire would have to bail him and he's not the quickest himself