The theory that Jose Mourinho doesn’t ‘allow’ our players to attack...

[Rozay]

@Rozay further to my point. I don't think there's anything wrong with being compact. We are just not very good at it either .
And it kills us in games we have responsibility to attack.

Not at the moment we’re not. We have had an excellent defensive record on the whole in recent years though. We just have no ideas going forward. Jose must take responsibility for that, I just don’t see it all down to a simple desire to defend. He’s just not good enough offensively.

 

[Sky1981]

I for once didnt believe that a manager can restrict someone so much that they become robot.

Positional discipline? Probably
Covering another player? Probably
Not bombing too far ahead? Probably

But a manager wont rationally and even if they're that dumb they can't and won't specifically instruct their players to hold the ball until the defender closes in, or not passing to your team mates, or make a deliberate back pass all the time, or you need to maintain 3second on the ball rule.

No manager is that dumb to not want to attack, or dont score goals. They too want their team to win, as much as mourinho isn't a full flair attacking coach the notion that he puts a handbrake on the team he managed is rubbish

 

[Irish Jet]

Ronaldo and Hazzard fell out with him. I wonder why?

Maybe the former didn't ask for consent?

 

[Mainoldo]

That Hazard has scored more in a season under Mourinho than anyone else. That he coached a Real Madrid that scored by the bucketload.

Of course he did. Go and bore somebody else.

I don’t think you know what boredom is? You sit and enjoy watching Mourinho teams! Flying fullbacks and sintilating attacking play.

 

[Adisa]

Not at the moment we’re not. We have had an excellent defensive record on the whole in recent years though. We just have no ideas going forward. Jose must take responsibility for that, I just don’t see it all down to a simple desire to defend. He’s just not good enough offensively.

I agree. I don't think he can adapt to the attackers he has. We even struggle in games you can't say we are being defensive. The reasons in my opinion are numerous. And I can't see it being resolved.
Apart from the big no 9s up front, every single attacker at this club has struggled in the last 27 months. Including the ones he's signed. It's not a coincidence.

 

[Rozay]

I don't think I'm in an argumentative mood. I just don't understand your finger wagging in this thread and in your op you looked to shift the blame on the players. The overriding point is offensively United look terrible and at this point the onus is on the manager find solutions. Arguing against hyperbole (which is essentially what you're doing) seems odd and fruitless.

You also mention that United only line up cautiously against bigger sides, but that the use of 2 DMs constantly seems to contradict that point (Matic and McTominay yesterday)

I didn’t shift responsibility to the players at all. I said that Jose is not good at setting up an attack, many times, in this thread. That’s on him. The simple observation is just to say he just cares about his defence. This is what i disagree with. He just has no idea offensively.

You saying it’s ‘hyperbole’ that JM restricts his players from attacking is all well and good, but that doesn’t mean others don’t see it as fact. That goes from posters to ‘experts’. I’ve seen us line up many times with many attacking players and still not look cohesive. This is JMs task, as opposed to him being overly defensive. I’m not sure that’s semantics either tbh, these are very different problems.

And we don’t constantly line up with two DMs. We started the season with Fred in there, and we only had anything resembling a functioning midfield when Fellaini came intothe side. Last season, it was Matic and Pogba in from the beginning, and first season it was Pogba and Fellaini. Perhaps due to a lack of a plan, we have looked worse in these scenarios, and he has reacted to find better balance. Also, he played 3 strikers from the start yesterday, in Rashford, Lukaku and Martial. Perhaps he wanted them to go all out and attack, and played the two sitters to allow that? Again, let’s not downplay the importance of defending well. With 2 DMs we still conceded 2 goals in 10 mins to Newcastle!

 

[Rozay]

I agree. I don't think he can adapt to the attackers he has. We even struggle in games you can't say we are being defensive. The reasons in my opinion are numerous. And I can't see it being resolved.
Apart from the big no 9s up front, every single attacker at this club has struggled in the last 27 months. Including the ones he's signed. It's not a coincidence.

Agree with this all.

 

[Patrick08]

The team can hardly keep the ball more than a few seconds with his absolutely pathetic long balls to no where tactics, and when they do, the players does not pass the ball forward either, its sideways most of the time. When you are shit at stringing few passes together as a team, the natural result is you are shit at attacking as well with little possession and midfield control in the middle of the park, as a result players are slated when found out of position as well which they don't dare to. They can be found out of position while on the attack, Mourinho will not slate the player on those instances but not on defensive occasions , thus they fail to perform those roles together.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

No more so than the excuses offered to players for not moving. Yes Mourinho is a defensive manager, I doubt many would argue that. Do you think he really tells them not to work as hard as other teams or not make off the ball moves?

If we run less it would most likely be a tactical choice. A manager doesn't spend 400 million to be unable to get his team run as much as he wants. When you press less you tend to run less so I assume that plays a part if we are weak on this metric.

As for excuses, the manager needs them moreso than the players do. The buck stops with him. The team is his - not Pogba's or Martial's, but his. He picks the team. He spends a fortune. He decides the tactics. Hence he bears the final responsibility.

 

[acnumber9]

If we run less it would most likely be a tactical choice. A manager doesn't spend 400 million to be unable to get his team run as much as he wants. When you press less you tend to run less so I assume that plays a part if we are weak on this metric.

As for excuses, the manager needs them moreso than the players do. The buck stops with him. The team is his - not Pogba's or Martial's, but his. He picks the team. He spends a fortune. He decides the tactics. Hence he bears the final responsibility.

I’d say it is to an extent. He clearly doesn’t want his teams pressing high up the pitch but I refuse to believe that extends to the half arsed way our players go for loose balls or make off the ball runs. One of the big culprits of that is Lukaku and he was exactly the same at Everton. Though it’s Mourinho’s fault for wanting him and playing him in every single game.

He does bear the greatest responsibility but not solely. The lack of effort at times has been appalling and that’s on everyone. Manager and players.

 

[Denis79]

I think a lot of that could be down to him trying to do too much since the people around him aren’t moving around to help him.

That's true. He works really hard and gets alot of stick for his poor use of the ball. He always tries a offensive opening pass and the lack movement makes that really difficult for him but he should at times choose the lesser option.

 

[JG3001]

No one believes he’s telling the players not to attack. As everyone else has said the team is set up with safety first in mind which stifles the attack. Static sideways passing, little off the ball movement, no running between the lines, 2/3 holding mids.

It’s about the hundredth time I’ve said this but if Van Gaal is gonna get slated for it, how can Mourinho get a free pass from people, especially at this point where it’s so so obvious this system is outdated and unsuited to the players at the club.

I also believe there are a number of players who also need to be made accountable for our crap play, but a lot this stems from the negativity emanating from the manager.

 

[Carolina Red]

That's true. He works really hard and gets alot of stick for his poor use of the ball. He always tries a offensive opening pass and the lack movement makes that really difficult for him but he should at times choose the lesser option.

Yep. I definitely agree that he forces too much and that leads to lost possession.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

That makes sense to a point but we cover the least ground of all PL clubs, I’m sure tactics play a part but you can’t deny the players need to give a bit more.

Um yeah and the reason why I’m telling you we covered this least ground is due to tactics. Who needs to give more in your opinion?

 

[arthurka]

He will. Think he is more relaxed there as well.

It’s the players! They should be able to play under any manager, he doesn’t control the ball for them. If he can do it for Martinez he can do it for Mourinho lol.

I get so fed up of these comments I’ve actually converted myself. Seriously though he’ll probably score a hattrick even with his baggy touch.

Tactics and motivation are two of the biggest things managers can bring to a squad of players .

Just go watch Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Chelsea. There they implemented their style and vision and its there for everyone to see.
Hell even Emery has gotten Arsenal winning 9 games straight with almost the same team that struggled badly under Wenger.

Jose has implemented his style alright its there for everyone to see. It just isnt pretty .

 

[singhters]

I'm starting to think maybe he's right not to attack, the defence is a shambles so maybe if we attack too much and get hit on the break we would have no real defence as its shite and leak goals hence why he's asked for some defenders.

We can all say he's had the money and bought shit yes he has had the money and bought some shit but so did ferguson he bought a lot of crap.

 

[M Bison]

Um yeah and the reason why I’m telling you we covered this least ground is due to tactics. Who needs to give more in your opinion?

I think all the players need to give more and need to shoulder some of the responsibility.

 

[Mainoldo]

I'm starting to think maybe he's right not to attack, the defence is a shambles so maybe if we attack too much and get hit on the break we would have no real defence as its shite and leak goals hence why he's asked for some defenders.

We can all say he's had the money and bought shit yes he has had the money and bought some shit but so did ferguson he bought a lot of crap.

The defence is only shambles because he’s made you and them think they are crap. I’m quite sure Lindelöf can pass a ball out from the back as good as McTominay and guess what if he can’t there was a Dutch guy LVG turned into a Barca type CB who we sold in the summer who could have.

He goes on like he’s always had ball playing centre halves.. this is the guy that loves a destroyer.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I think all the players need to give more and need to shoulder some of the responsibility.

What do you mean by that give more tho? Ignore Jose’s instructions and fight and press higher up the Pitch, make more swaps of position and more small runs in to other zones? You can’t cover more distance if it goes against what the manager is asking you to do as part of his tactical set up.

I think there are certain players who need to risk more. Matic for whatever reason kills more moves than Ashley Young did on the left, there was a point yesterday where momentum built Matic was on the ball, people were breaking and there were multiple options for him to hit to continue the momentum and put Newcastle on the back foot. Instead he checked out and played it backwards/sideways which killed it and this happens game after game after game.

 

[The United]

That Hazard has scored more in a season under Mourinho than anyone else. That he coached a Real Madrid that scored by the bucketload.

Of course he did. Go and bore somebody else.

To be fair, Hazard scored the least in a season under Jose (well half a season) too. In fact, his scoring rate in a season is more or less similar for most seasons except for that one.

Some people bringing up Madrd's season under him to highlight that he is some kind of attacking coach is like saying SAF didn't like to play attacking football while bringing up a couple of seasons or so when his teams didn't score much.

Point is that that season was more or less abnormal for Jose looking at his career. Though I would admit, it seemed getting worse later on. I thought he got the balance just about right in his early career.

 

[acnumber9]

To be fair, Hazard scored the least in a season under Jose (well half a season) too. In fact, his scoring rate in a season is more or less similar for most seasons except for that one.

Some people bringing up Madrd's season under him to highlight that he is some kind of attacking coach is like saying SAF didn't like to play attacking football while bringing up a couple of seasons or so when his teams didn't score much.

Point is that that season was more or less abnormal for Jose looking at his career. Though I would admit, it seemed getting worse later on. I thought he got the balance just about right in his early career.

It’s just a counter to an argument that attacking players can’t thrive under him at all when that can be easily disproved. I’m not claiming he’s an attacking manager. He isn’t.

 

[roseguy64]

Lukaku saying this certainly makes it sound like the tactics are restricting (not to mention it not being the first player to speak out about us not being allowed to attack basically)

That's not how I read it. Read it as him being critical of the team for not being able to do it more often. Not that they aren't allowed to.

 

[The United]

It’s just a counter to an argument that attacking players can’t thrive under him at all when that can be easily disproved. I’m not claiming he’s an attacking manager. He isn’t.

He has managed a lot of teams and not many of attacking players from those teams were seen like 'thriving' to me. If we pick up Hazard and Ronaldo for being an example of attacking players thriving under him, I am not sure if it proves it much as both of them I think said they were not exactly happy playing under him.

They are just extremely talented players who are going to do their jobs extremely well under any manager anyway.

 

[M Bison]

What do you mean by that give more tho? Ignore Jose’s instructions and fight and press higher up the Pitch, make more swaps of position and more small runs in to other zones? You can’t cover more distance if it goes against what the manager is asking you to do as part of his tactical set up.

I think there are certain players who need to risk more. Matic for whatever reason kills more moves than Ashley Young did on the left, there was a point yesterday where momentum built Matic was on the ball, people were breaking and there were multiple options for him to hit to continue the momentum and put Newcastle on the back foot. Instead he checked out and played it backwards/sideways which killed it and this happens game after game after game.

All valid points and as I say, the tactics are a major contributor to the stats, but for me the players must give more and need to take some responsibility.

The Newcastle goals for example, we didn’t press the ball in our own half. When Shelvey got the ball from the throw in for the second goal, Pogba barely broke sweat to close him down and I could of course be wrong, but I don’t think that’s down to tactics.

 

[Lash]

He has managed a lot of teams and not many of attacking players from those teams were seen like 'thriving' to me. If we pick up Hazard and Ronaldo for being an example of attacking players thriving under him, I am not sure if it proves it much as both of them I think said they were not exactly happy playing under him.

They are just extremely talented players who are going to do their jobs extremely well under any manager anyway.

Diego Milito was pretty fecking handy under him. Had the season of his life in fact. Even shunted eto’o on the wing for him.

 

[The United]

Diego Milito was pretty fecking handy under him. Had the season of his life in fact. Even shunted eto’o on the wing for him.

Like I said not many. He has managed a lot of attacking players.

Those few samples are more of exceptions than anything which was my point. I am not saying it is a bad thing though. He got the balanced right and made those attackers work as a team mostly and won shit load with it.

And, to be frank, I am not sure why United fans should give a feck about it anyway as he has not been doing any of it pretty much at United. United fans can and should only judge him on how he is doing atm. It is not like this is his first season with us.

 

[wolvored]

the only time we play like that is when we are 2 down. The first half was his gameplan

Couldnt have put it better myself. Lets see how we play the next 4-5 games. Its easy to attack when you are chasing a game as you have virtually nothing to lose.

 

[Lash]

Like I said not many. He has managed a lot of attacking players.

Those few samples are more of exceptions than anything which was my point. I am not saying it is a bad thing though. He got the balanced right and made those attackers work as a team mostly and won shit load with it.

And, to be frank, I am not sure why United fans should give a feck about it anyway as he has not been doing any of it pretty much at United. United fans can and should only judge him on how he is doing atm. It is not like this is his first season with us.

I don’t really understand your point though? No one goes through reams of attackers and wins things. Most people have one or two main attacking outlets that sustain them for their tenure and the rest is built round them.

He’s only managed 4 teams worth noting and most of them had world class attackers in when he managed them.

The point is he obviously isn’t bad at managing attacking players, or getting teams playing attacking football. It just seems as though it’s these attacking players he can’t seem to get playing well, consistently. That’s still ultimately his fault, but it’s got to be shared with the players he’s working with.

 

[The United]

I don’t really understand your point though? No one goes through reams of attackers and wins things. Most people have one or two main attacking outlets that sustain them for their tenure and the rest is built round them.

He’s only managed 4 teams worth noting and most of them had world class attackers in when he managed them.

The point is he obviously isn’t bad at managing attacking players, or getting teams playing attacking football. It just seems as though it’s these attacking players he can’t seem to get playing well, consistently. That’s still ultimately his fault, but it’s got to be shared with the players he’s working with.

The point I am making is that bringing examples from his previous teams means pretty much nothing as this is not his first season so that we can hope or expect what we would do with our club.

If he still can't manage his attacking players properly with who we have before him and who he signed while being in his 3rd season with us, I think it is safe to say that he is bad at managing attacking players or getting teams playing attacking football here.

And some people are pointing out that his tactic may be choking them and there is almost nothing to prove otherwise.

 

[Cliche Guevara]

Watch this. Even just the first couple of minutes.

This is why I wanted Mourinho and what I thought he’d bring to us. Regularly four or five players in the opposition box, scoring by weight of numbers and passing combinations.

Why do we not have this here? Is it possible Jose has become a more cautious manager? Even in relation to his first season here where we battered teams and just couldn’t score.

I took the view that we should give him the summer transfer window, on the understanding it would have given him sufficient time to build what he wanted. The season so far has been a bit of a mess, however. We’ve gone backwards.

I genuinely don’t understand what’s going on at United. I think there is quite a lot of the anti-Mourinho narrative that is actually myth but it’s also like the parody is taking on a life of its own and becoming reality.

 

[99withaflake]

A lot of our defenders aren't very good at defending or playing it out of the back.

Jose has been trying to protect them, and work out ways to build attacks without leaving them too exposed.

Even when we've been playing "defensively" some of the chances our players have missed have been a joke.

Lukaku has missed 4 or 5 massive opportunities which could have changed all of those games.

Even against Newcastle, Rashford and Matic missed the types of chances people on this forum would put away.

We ended up taking huge risks in the last 30 minutes, and thankfully the opposition weren't good enough to kill us on the break.

The single biggest difference though was the attitude of the players. Martial actually looked interested and players were busting a gut.

If the same work ethic had been applied in previous games, however we were set up, I'm positive we would created far more opportunities.

 

[RedCurry]

It’s not really nonsense. His style and tactics are not suited for attacking football. He sets his teams sit deep and play without the ball. The players are expected to play narrow and you hardly see our players crowd the opposition penalty area attacking a cross. You’ll rarely see us press the opposition teams to proactively win the ball.

It’s simple for me, if players like Martial, Pogba and Sanchez get on the ball enough times around the opposition’s box, we’ll get goals. Problem is that when we have as little possession as we usually do in games, there is not enough ball-time for our players to play attacking football.

Players also need to know that they can make a mistake or two in a game without it being brought up by their manager in a press conference. This is probably the biggest issue with Jose.

 

[CA1]

Our defenders aren't good enough on the ball or in 1 vs 1 situations for them to push up the pitch.

We need better centre halves, I've said it for years. Bailly and Smalling get pinned back whenever they get the ball because they're so bad on it.The midfield come deeper and then the attack has to come deeper.

Last 20 minutes we just went for it with Matic and Pogba coming deeper as Mourinhos said for their ball playing ability. Newcastle who are terrible still looked pretty dangerous at 2-2 because none of our defenders are good 1 vs 1 to close the space.

 

[CA1]

Van Gaal like him or not was a good manager who got Bayern, Ajax and Barca playing good football. Our players are poor on the ball. Do people really think Van Gaal didn't coach them Mon-Fri passing drills for 2 years, I bet it's all he did.

It's little things like our headers, our players just nod it forward with no control which means it becomes a lottery. It's poor footballers.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Van Gaal like him or not was a good manager who got Bayern, Ajax and Barca playing good football. Our players are poor on the ball. Do people really think Van Gaal didn't coach them Mon-Fri passing drills for 2 years, I bet it's all he did.

It's little things like our headers, our players just nod it forward with no control which means it becomes a lottery. It's poor footballers.

Van Gaal did not have Bayern playing good Football.

 

[In Rainbows]

That Hazard has scored more in a season under Mourinho than anyone else. That he coached a Real Madrid that scored by the bucketload.

Of course he did. Go and bore somebody else.

Hazard:

"I like to have the ball. Not in my own half, but in the last 30 metres," Hazard told Chelsea TV.

"I like this type of game. It's completely different than Antonio Conte or (Jose) Mourinho before.

Chelsea "are not made to play football, we are good on the counter-attack". Hazard also added: "Often, I'm asked to do it all by myself and it's not easy."

“We know exactly what to do. With Mourinho, he put in a system but we didn’t work lots. We know what to do because we play football, but maybe the automatisms were a little bit different.

Just because Hazard did well under Mourinho doesn't mean that his tactics nurtured Hazard's attacking ability. The correlation is weak. You (or rather pro-Jose posters) like to point out how players need to do better, then come out with this. Which is it? Is it due to the players or not?

 

[Rednotdead]

Mourinho is always emphasising players' defensive roles within the team, no matter their position. He always plays with 2 defensive midfielders. That should give an indication of his mindset.

 

[ash_86]

Hazard:

Just because Hazard did well under Mourinho doesn't mean that his tactics nurtured Hazard's attacking ability. The correlation is weak. You (or rather pro-Jose posters) like to point out how players need to do better, then come out with this. Which is it? Is it due to the players or not?

Jose isn't Hazard's personal coach. He has other players to equally worry about and not just him. He puts in a system for the entire team and not just Hazard. Also , Hazard won the PFA player of the year , his only one under Jose. If we're cherry picking quotes, we can find plenty of it spoken from Zlatan or Eto on Jose.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

Why do we not have this here?

The players aren't up for it. When they're desperate they'll try and turn it on if they feel like it. It doesn't matter what setup, what coaching, what players we have. Attack, defend, cautions, full blast balls to the wall. There are obviously two sides to the coin here. West Ham physically bullied us and kept us from overturning 2-0 away from home. Newcastle capitulated to the fight back and lost the game 2-3.

When these guys feel like they want to turn it on, they will turn it on. There is no consequences when they lose.

There is zero leadership on the field which is why we've been regularly double banged for goals and these things keep happening. There isn't much more that Mourinho can do if there is no leadership core to take responsibility on match day. Sack him, keep him, bring in new players. Until we have some proper match day grit and fight and a crop of players willing to focus the superstars and kick them up the arse (clearly not responding to management) then we might see some determined and calculating clinical performances. Until then, patience is about it.

 

[moodyred]

1. We don't press.
2. We sit and allow opponents to come at us. Our players try to close opponents down half heartedly if they are not near the 6 yard box.
3. If a defender gets the ball, he will almost certainly pass left or right even if there were no one closing him down.
4. When a defender passes the ball to midfield, the first response for the midfielder is to kick the ball back to the defender even if he was free to move forward.
5. The attack is static. Because everyone is thinking of moving the ball left or right or backwards.
6. 1-5 is thrown out of the window when we are 2 goals down.