The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll

[Pogue Mahone]

Could help explain why it was younger people. Could this not also be a potential issue with other vaccines if it’s linked to antibody production? Or do the vaccines produce different antibodies? Now we know about it I wonder what we can do to mitigate the risk of that strong immune response. Certain signs to look for etc.

The vaccines all work by using our own protein manufacturing mechanisms to churn out viral spike proteins, so you would worry about a common mechanism. But the mRNA vaccines use a fundamentally different mechanism. There is no viral vector. Which might make a significant difference. Feck knows though. I’m starting to get quite worried

 

[NinjaFletch]

All these patients had low platelets, which are involved in blood clotting. They’ve found antibodies against platelets in all of them. So they concluded that they got sick because of a vigorous immune response against things other than the virus. And the vaccine is the most likely cause of that vigorous immune response.

Thank you! Same question as below, and is there any speculation why there's a relatively high number of these events clustered in Norway vs virtually no evidence of this elsewhere?

So the next step is to understand why those patients had that response? And whether they would have had it to the actual virus too?

Though i suppose neither of those things help the vaccine's case much.

 

[lynchie]

If there's a specific antibody that they've identified as the cause, then how practical would it be to screen people who recently had the AZ vaccine for those antibodies? Seems like that would give a good picture of whether this is a general thing, or batch specific.

 

[jojojo]

Wouldn't the doctors have checked if these patients were covid positive? Genuine question, did they overlook this?

I guess they could be past the stage where it shows up on PCR. But presumably they would still show antibodies to covid (not just to the spike protein).

I did wonder if the adenovirus that AZ uses might be the thing that makes it different. People will react to that as well as to the spikes.

It still doesn't quite get past the question of "why Norway" where the number of AZ vaccines used so far must be quite low. I guess it might even be that the 12 week delay between jabs has helped protect UK recipients. I wonder if these reactions occurred on jab 2? Just a thought.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I guess they could be past the stage where it shows up on PCR. But presumably they would still show antibodies to covid (not just to the spike protein).

I did wonder if the adenovirus that AZ uses might be the thing that makes it different. .

It still doesn't quite get past the question of "why Norway" where the number of AZ vaccines used so far must be quite low. I guess it might even be that the 12 week delay between jabs has helped protect UK recipients. I wonder if these reactions occurred on jab 2? Just a thought.

But three weeks was the spacing used in the trial, right? So if that was the issue presumably you'd expect to see it then as well.

It's definitely wishful thinking but is there any chance it might be to do with improper storage?

 

[Dumbstar]

So once this news hits mainstream UK media in the next few hours there will be many calls to delay or cancel vaccinations. My jab is on Monday and I'm still looking forward to it.

But if I heard about this a few weeks ago when my mum was about to get her's there is no way I would have opted the AZ for her. She has compromised platelet production. Thankfully the AZ she got doesn't seem to have affected her and the second dose is 6 weeks away by which time we should have more clarity.

 

[jojojo]

But three weeks was the spacing used in the trial, right? So if that was the issue presumably you'd expect to see it then as well.

It's definitely wishful thinking but is there any chance it might be to do with improper storage?

It was used in part of the trial in the UK - the other longer pause patterns were shown in the trial results as well. It's part of the reason people got annoyed with the AZ results paper.

The ongoing US trial is using a 4 week gap between doses, 20,000 people have received both doses of the vaccine and that hasn't thrown up anything similar yet. I'm sure though that AZ and the regulators are going through the bloodwork again now (particularly in the younger female cohort) to see if there are any clues.

 

[lynchie]

I guess they could be past the stage where it shows up on PCR. But presumably they would still show antibodies to covid (not just to the spike protein).

I did wonder if the adenovirus that AZ uses might be the thing that makes it different. People will react to that as well as to the spikes.

It still doesn't quite get past the question of "why Norway" where the number of AZ vaccines used so far must be quite low. I guess it might even be that the 12 week delay between jabs has helped protect UK recipients. I wonder if these reactions occurred on jab 2? Just a thought.

According to Our World in Data, Norway have done 258k 2nd doses, split (no idea on proportions) between Pfizer and AZ, so really talking very small numbers of AZ 2nd doses for this to be appearing. The UK have done 1.8m second doses (again, no idea on the Pfizer/AZ split), but maybe the fact they've been largely in older groups means this hasn't shown up? Then again, there's a lot of women in their 30s in our healthcare and carehome workers... Whole thing is weird.

 

[OleBoiii]

It still doesn't quite get past the question of "why Norway" where the number of AZ vaccines used so far must be quite low.

Probably a coincidence? I think 150k have received the first doze of AZ so far in Norway, which is nearly 3% of the population. And they've only confirmed 3 cases to "almost definitely" be because of the vaccine.

 

[mav_9me]

Would have thought so, yes.

Wait a sec. Are you saying people are tested for covid before getting the vaccine?

 

[mav_9me]

That tweet is a gross over-simplification (which she wrote based on newspaper reports ). Here’s a good article on the finer details behind the decision. Yes, it is “safe” overall but there might be some people in whom the risk outweighs the benefit. This pause is about not giving this particular vaccine (while others are available) to any more of those people while we make absolutely sure that isn’t the case.

It is all about risks and benefits. If the incidence of clots in covid 19 is so so so much higher than the vaccine, surely the benefits of vaccination against covid 19 outweigh the risk of clots from vaccination.

Also so far the incidence of clots in AZ vaccine is less than the background incidence of DVT/PE in general population no?

 

[Balljy]

Is this the same as on other medications (and I assume vaccinations) where a very small proportion of people will create a response which is irregular and can cause big problems?

I've just checked the 6 in 1 vaccine page on the NHS website and it mentions anaphylaxis which is a severe over-reaction to the vaccine. I may be totally wrong but won't all vaccines have a tiny proportion of people who have reactions that are unexpected?

 

[redshaw]

Norway article now available in English.
Professor says cause of AstraZeneca side effects has been found – VG

 

[Rado_N]

Turns out my wife and I are eligible for the vaccine as we are carers for her parents who have both had the vaccine due to being considered higher risk, so we’re booked to get jabbed on the 29th.

Figures that things are now looking a little concerning.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Wait a sec. Are you saying people are tested for covid before getting the vaccine?

I’m saying I would have thought they’d have tested for covid in people who turn up with a weird coagulopathy shortly after being vaccinated.

 

[NinjaFletch]

It was used in part of the trial in the UK - the other longer pause patterns were shown in the trial results as well. It's part of the reason people got annoyed with the AZ results paper.

The ongoing US trial is using a 4 week gap between doses, 20,000 people have received both doses of the vaccine and that hasn't thrown up anything similar yet. I'm sure though that AZ and the regulators are going through the bloodwork again now (particularly in the younger female cohort) to see if there are any clues.

I remember that, but I was under the impression 3 weeks full dose full dose was the bulk of the testing they carried out (although I never looked at the raw numbers so maybe that's a false impression).

 

[Balljy]

Turns out my wife and I are eligible for the vaccine as we are carers for her parents who have both had the vaccine due to being considered higher risk, so we’re booked to get jabbed on the 29th.

Figures that things are now looking a little concerning.

I had a text on Tuesday and booked for next week. I'm exactly the same as you, typical that this comes out now

I also have no idea why I received a slot as I'm not in the age groupings but it could be linked to the fact I have been suffering with long Covid for a long time which has pushed me up into a category. I want to ask them about my criteria when I get it done as nothing was communicated to me.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It is all about risks and benefits. If the incidence of clots in covid 19 is so so so much higher than the vaccine, surely the benefits of vaccination against covid 19 outweigh the risk of clots from vaccination.

Also so far the incidence of clots in AZ vaccine is less than the background incidence of DVT/PE in general population no?

These aren’t classic DVTs/PEs. So the background incidence of DVT/PE is a bit of a red herring. The article I linked you to gives more details on this. For the specific provisional diagnosis the incidence seems to be many multiples the baseline.

On the plus side, the absolute risk of any serious adverse event is still low. But it’s possible that for young people (or ideally an identifiable subset of young people) it’s high enough to outweigh the potential benefit of protecting against a virus that we know has a very low morbidity/mortality in the young.

 

[jojojo]

It is all about risks and benefits. If the incidence of clots in covid 19 is so so so much higher than the vaccine, surely the benefits of vaccination against covid 19 outweigh the risk of clots from vaccination.

Also so far the incidence of clots in AZ vaccine is less than the background incidence of DVT/PE in general population no?

Yes, statistically the overall number of incidents isn't really a worry.

It's the news - from Norway with a group of thrombocytopenia cases and Germany with a group of people hit by cerebral venous thrombosis - that has thrown the debate open. In both cases it seemed as if a disproportionate number of women under 50 are having a problem.

Thrombocytopenia and CVT have both been flagged as possible adverse reactions for Pfizer and AZ in the UK but at such low rates that they look to be well within the normal pattern of coincidences rather than reactions.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I remember that, but I was under the impression 3 weeks full dose full dose was the bulk of the testing they carried out (although I never looked at the raw numbers so maybe that's a false impression).

Unfortunately not. The duration between doses seems to have been so random and variable that they couldn’t even give a summary overview in the primary publication. Which is why it has an unusual license recommending the second dose “between 4 weeks and 12 weeks” after the first. While Pfizer, for example, specifically recommends exactly 28 days because that’s how everyone in the trial was dosed.

 

[Grinner]

I’m saying I would have thought they’d have tested for covid in people who turn up with a weird coagulopathy shortly after being vaccinated.

We're going to start limiting you to three big medicine words a day.

What is it...thick blood thingy or something?

 

[Dumbstar]

I had a text on Tuesday and booked for next week. I'm exactly the same as you, typical that this comes out now

I also have no idea why I received a slot as I'm not in the age groupings but it could be linked to the fact I have been suffering with long Covid for a long time which has pushed me up into a category. I want to ask them about my criteria when I get it done as nothing was communicated to me.

I tried to get my daughter pushed up as she is also a long covid sufferer. She's 18 though and now with these Norway findings in young females I might hold fire.

Depending on your age, and gender, it's highly likely you should be ok as many long covid sufferers have opted for vaccination without any concerns (Slack and FB support groups).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We're going to start limiting you to three big medicine words a day.

What is it...thick blood thingy or something?

It’s a catch all term for your blood clotting going all funky and weird. Can cause clots or bleeds. Or both.

Medical words that end in -pathy usually mean something’s gone wrong (e.g. neuropathy, psychopathy etc; just don’t mention homeopathy!) like words that end in -itis usually mean something is inflamed (arthritis, appendicitis, tonsilitis etc).

 

[NinjaFletch]

Unfortunately not. The duration between doses seems to have been so random and variable that they couldn’t even give a summary overview in the primary publication. Which is why it has an unusual license recommending the second dose “between 4 weeks and 12 weeks” after the first. While Pfizer, for example, specifically recommends exactly 28 days because that’s how everyone in the trial was dosed.

Ah, it's been said before but it really is such a shame AZ's trial was so botched given the obvious attention that it's drawing. There's so many legitimate issues that it's no wonder it's contributing to vaccine hesitancy and scepticism even if the underlying vaccine is safe as houses.

I guess it shows again how extraordinarily lucky we have been to have Pfizer/Biontech, Moderna and J&J produce much better studies because at least it seems that AZ's troubles are mostly confined to AZ itself rather being seen as systematic issues with vaccines (although that is happening as well).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If there's a specific antibody that they've identified as the cause, then how practical would it be to screen people who recently had the AZ vaccine for those antibodies? Seems like that would give a good picture of whether this is a general thing, or batch specific.

Not a bad idea. Or proactively test everyone who gets the vaccine for that specific antibody from now on. These are exactly the sort of next steps the regulators will be considering.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Ah, it's been said before but it really is such a shame AZ's trial was so botched given the obvious attention that it's drawing. There's so many legitimate issues that it's no wonder it's contributing to vaccine hesitancy and scepticism even if the underlying vaccine is safe as houses.

I guess it shows again how extraordinarily lucky we have been to have Pfizer/Biontech, Moderna and J&J produce much better studies because at least it seems that AZ's troubles are mostly confined to AZ itself rather being seen as systematic issues with vaccines (although that is happening as well).

Imagine if this was the only vaccine demonstrated to work? Doesn’t bear thinking about and wasn’t actually that unlikely.

 

[Balljy]

I tried to get my daughter pushed up as she is also a long covid sufferer. She's 18 though and now with these Norway findings in young females I might hold fire.

Depending on your age, and gender, it's highly likely you should be ok as many long covid sufferers have opted for vaccination without any concerns (Slack and FB support groups).

Cheers, I'm not overly worried as the proportions are tiny and you're effectively taking a risk with any kind of medicine in terms of reactions. I will keep an eye on what comes out over the next few days just in case but will go with the UK advice at the time.

 

[TheReligion]

It’s a catch all term for your blood clotting going all funky and weird. Can cause clots or bleeds. Or both.

Medical words that end in -pathy usually mean something’s gone wrong (e.g. neuropathy, psychopathy etc; just don’t mention homeopathy!) like words that end in -itis usually mean something is inflamed (arthritis, appendicitis, tonsilitis etc).

Interesting! I will keep that as my own. Thank you. Ha ha.

Anyway are these figures really a concern given how many people worldwide have had the AZ vaccine? It seems very minimal and as JVT said yesterday every single medicine has the risk of adverse reactions to some degree.

Obviously we want to learn what we can from it but stopping the program based on such small numbers seems much more risky than waiting around whilst a third wave creeps in. Especially in Europe which is already getting battered still.

 

[redshaw]

Wonder if the UK will see similar cases once more younger people receive the AZ vaccine. I would've thought enough younger health workers and such would've received AZ in the UK but in the rest of Europe AZ has been used for younger people even though it's been approved for elderly, it's still Pfizer/Moderna for elderly mostly. Given these cases are rare it might take many countries to offer it to younger groups before it shows, so it appears in Norway and Germany only so far but play the odds more and the rest of Europe including UK might start to these cases, particularly in younger women

.

 

[TheReligion]

Wonder if the UK will see similar cases once more younger people receive the AZ vaccine. I would've thought enough younger health workers and such would've received AZ in the UK but in the rest of Europe AZ has been used for younger people even though it's been approved for elderly, it's still Pfizer/Moderna for elderly mostly. Given these cases are rare it might take many countries to offer it to younger groups before it shows, so it appears in Norway and Germany only so far but play the odds more and the rest of Europe including UK might start to these cases, particularly in younger women

.

Still think the figures are ridiculously low when you look at how many have had the vaccine worldwide.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Wonder if the UK will see similar cases once more younger people receive the AZ vaccine. I would've thought enough younger health workers and such would've received AZ in the UK but in the rest of Europe AZ has been used for younger people even though it's been approved for elderly, it's still Pfizer/Moderna for elderly mostly. Given these cases are rare it might take many countries to offer it to younger groups before it shows, so it appears in Norway and Germany only so far but play the odds more and the rest of Europe including UK might start to these cases, particularly in younger women

.

The rollout in Europe’s been very different to the Uk (I think?). In Ireland, HCWs got Pfizer/Moderna (none of the medics I know got AZ but they’re all vaccinated) Along with the elderly, none of whom are getting AZ.

AZ became available a lot later and has been ear-marked for HCWs who missed the first wave of Pfizer (not sure why?) and young people with underlying conditions.

 

[redshaw]

The rollout in Europe’s been very different to the Uk (I think?). In Ireland, HCWs got Pfizer/Moderna (none of the medics I know got AZ but they’re all vaccinated) Along with the elderly, none of whom are getting AZ.

AZ became available a lot later and has been ear-marked for HCWs who missed the first wave of Pfizer (not sure why?) and young people with underlying conditions.

Yes this is what I'm saying.

 

[cyberman]

Can we not let all of the people who were willing to scarifice lives to open the economy take the AZ vaccine? Easy solution.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yes this is what I'm saying.

So what have young HCWs been getting in the UK?

 

[MTF]

Imagine if this was the only vaccine demonstrated to work? Doesn’t bear thinking about and wasn’t actually that unlikely.

You'd probably use it, same as countries that only have Sinovac, Sputnik or AZ are using those instead of waiting until they have Pfizer, Moderna or J&J. From the position of a country (Brazil) getting absolutely slammed with deaths right now and only limited supply of Sinovac and AZ vaccines available, it seems very 1st world problems to watch parts of Europe pause the use of AZ vaccines.

 

[redshaw]

So what have young HCWs been getting in the UK?

AZ and Pfizer.

What I'm saying is the amount will still be limited of younger people getting AZ in UK. Across the EU AZ has been largely used for younger people while elderly get Pfizer/Moderna. These very rare cases could just be around the corner in younger groups in Spain Belgium etc and the UK. Once UK starts using AZ on a larger younger group we could see these rare cases pop up.

Across the EU it's just Germany and Norway and maybe a couple of others. Depends how many younger people have got AZ in UK and if it dwarfs EU numbers, I think it will limited and similar in all countries still and again these very rare cases could be waiting around the corner for the other 25 or so EU and UK once more and more younger people receive AZ if there's something wrong with the AZ vaccine and it's not due to batches.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You'd probably use it, same as countries that only have Sinovac, Sputnik or AZ are using those instead of waiting until they have Pfizer, Moderna or J&J. From the position of a country (Brazil) getting absolutely slammed with deaths right now and only limited supply of Sinovac and AZ vaccines available, it seems very 1st world problems to watch parts of Europe pause the use of AZ vaccines.

Absolutely. It is a first world problem. As I keep saying, the pause only makes sense because other vaccines are available. Still be a horrific state of affairs if we only had one vaccine available and we were starting to worry that benefit might not be greater than risk in everyone under 50. In the worst case scenario it would be better to not use this vaccine at all in young people, even if no alternatives available.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

it seems very 1st world problems to watch parts of Europe pause the use of AZ vaccines.

hmmm... the idea that as this filters down through the age phases of vaccination; that young people with entire lives ahead of them, young mums, young dads etc could possibly die utterly unnecessarily from medical science isn’t what I’d call “first World problems”.

 

[TheReligion]

Can we not let all of the people who were willing to scarifice lives to open the economy take the AZ vaccine? Easy solution.

So have we decided the AZ vaccine is a death sentence now? I'm not sure I follow or are you just being dramatic?

 

[mav_9me]

I’m saying I would have thought they’d have tested for covid in people who turn up with a weird coagulopathy shortly after being vaccinated.

Yeah that makes sense. Apologies I didn't understand the first time.