The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll

[Pogue Mahone]

Is AZ genuinely Anglo-Swedish or is it essentially British with a Swedish fig leaf? If the former, it seems a strange choice for a UK-EU slanging match.

It’s a strange one. It is kind of a perfect storm.

Starting off with Brexit. Then a vaccine called “the Oxford vaccine”. With the UK going (almost) all in as it’s main vaccine. Then the less than ideal clinical data which was interpreted less favourably in Europe than in the UK. Followed by a license being granted in the UK much earlier than the EU. Throw in the bickering over supply and the EU’s shoddy procurement tactics. And now the pause.

Individually, none of those events would be a cause for an international incident. Combine them and here we are.

 

[Buster15]

Jesus fecking Christ. This thread is hitting new depths today.

I was not being serious.....

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The UK are waiting for the orders they placed with AZ too?

Seems like it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I was not being serious.....

I know. But this is usually a fairly serious thread. Where people come to talk science. So I don’t think posts like that are very helpful.

 

[Buster15]

I agree, it all started with some UK posters slagging off the EU and todays row started because van der Leyen said we want to be supplied as well not one way traffic.
Yes it is AZ's fault for the lack of supply.
Then Raab sticks his oar in.

Had the EU procured from Pfizer and Moderna and the UK from AZ, it would have been a different story.
The UK government saying they are not allowing AZ to be shipped until the UK have all their vaccines doesn't convince me the UK government is innocent in all this or unconnected.

Some EU countries and some non-EU countries have suspended rollout of the little AZ vaccine they have until some more data is available but is expected to be just a few days.

Agreed.
My comment was primarily to highlight the way this type of issue becomes so highly polarised.
I am no champion of AZ. But it is understandable that at this still very early stage of volume production, deliveries can fluctuate for a wide range of reasons. That is why they have multiple production facilities.

 

[Buster15]

I know. But this is usually a fairly serious thread. Where people come to talk science. So I don’t think posts like that are very helpful.

I apologise for my less than serious post.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I apologise for my less than serious post.

No need to apologise! I was being a bit of a dick anyway. I don’t like the bickering and this whole EU vaccine shambles is putting me in a bad mood.

 

[One Night Only]

This isn't gonna have much effect on opening back up anyway is it? All the vulnerable already vaccinated and the everyone yet to get a vaccine is classed as low risk and healthy?

A fair portion of those without the vaccine will have already had covid and be pretty immune anyway, the rest their immune systems should be strong enough to fight it off.

Or is this wishful thinking?

 

[F-Red]

I'm not saying they have done a good job but why aren't the Uk delivering the AZ when the EU are delivering the Pfizer. I wish everyone would be honest.

Honestly, since you've entered this thread your intent to make this a second Brexit debate thread is tiresome.

The UK and the EU as government and political entities are not responsible for delivering. It's down to the manufacturers as to how & when the delivery schedules fall for the purpose of allocation. The UK's agreement with AZ has a term in there which relates to any domestically produced vaccine they get first call on. The EU's agreement has no such clause within the contract, and the yields from the European sites are currently under expectations, which they called back in January. Von Der Leyen's approach now of emergency vaccine controls is simply a reaction to the poor negotiation of their contract with AZ, as they have no legal controls within the contract and having to fall back on Article 122 of the treaty. Combined with the fact of the potential third waves in Europe means it's a recipe for disaster.

Whilst the original decision to suspend the vaccine whilst the batch is checked is the right one, for many to insinuate that this is purely a regulatory decision and there's no inclination of a political decision in there isn't completely correct based on what France's industry minister is quoted on saying. The EU still has a stockpile of AZ vaccines which aren't currently and, off the back of this weeks news, doesn't look to be being utilised any time soon. I can't see the uptake improving unless something dramatically changes.

The news on the UK's distribution today does seem to be slightly cautious considering a large chunk of AZ was delivered over the weekend, which now looks like it'll be targeting second doses of the 25m already vaccinated (looking at currently 2m per week in April). It appears that AZ yields are struggling, and Moderna are going to be 20% behind their original schedule. This looks to be a short term impact of about 4 weeks, and based off the current progress anyone in the at risk groups will have had a single jab, so hospitalisation rates will be dramatically lower. It should mean that the re-opening road map should run to schedule.

 

[Eire Red United]

I thought we had loads of the stuff?

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Feck sake.

Any idea when the J&J vaccine is likely to start being used in the UK? Is there much of Moderna being used?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Whilst the original decision to suspend the vaccine whilst the batch is checked is the right one, for many to insinuate that this is purely a regulatory decision and there's no inclination of a political decision in there isn't completely correct based on what France's industry minister is quoted on saying.

Do you have a link for that which isn’t behind a paywall?

EDIT: By googling all I can find is a reference to European countries being “coordinated” in their decision to pause. Which happens with regulatory decisions in pharma all the time. The regulatory bodies are in regular contact with each other, sharing data and discussing hot topics. Nothing to do with politicians.

 

[F-Red]

Do you have a link for that which isn’t behind a paywall?

You're an affluent man, pay up!

Quote below....

In a sign of the co-ordination between European capitals, Italy’s prime minister Mario Draghi and Germany’s chancellor Angela Merkel spoke on Monday afternoon before Italy announced its suspension of the vaccine, people familiar with the matter said. Italy had previously halted the use of a single batch of the vaccine, ABV 2856, but had allowed other injections to continue. Recommended Covid-19 vaccines Covid-19 vaccine tracker: the global race to vaccinate Draghi then spoke to France’s president Emmanuel Macron.

Both leaders agreed they were ready to resume administering the AstraZeneca vaccine if the EMA reached a “positive conclusion” on Thursday, according to a statement from the Italian prime minister’s office. Pannier-Runacher said it was normal for the European countries to co-ordinate on their decision to suspend the jab. “You can imagine that we spoke with Italy, we spoke with Spain, we spoke with Germany and it’s no coincidence if these four countries, on the same day, announced the same decision,” she told France Info radio.

“If you see decisions being made in other countries, the risk is that a mistrust of the vaccine could develop,” Pannier-Runacher said. “Our intention is to be perfectly transparent . . . and [show] that every time that there is an alert, we treat it as professionally as possible.”

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You're an affluent man, pay up!

Quote below....

See my edit above. By “we” he means the French regulators that made the call. The EU regulatory network is long established and there’s often a domino effect when one regulator raises safety concerns. That can influence others to copy their approach. That’s not a political decision though. Although the government(s) will obviously have been notified first.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Honestly, since you've entered this thread your intent to make this a second Brexit debate thread is tiresome.

The UK and the EU as government and political entities are not responsible for delivering. It's down to the manufacturers as to how & when the delivery schedules fall for the purpose of allocation. The UK's agreement with AZ has a term in there which relates to any domestically produced vaccine they get first call on. The EU's agreement has no such clause within the contract, and the yields from the European sites are currently under expectations, which they called back in January. Von Der Leyen's approach now of emergency vaccine controls is simply a reaction to the poor negotiation of their contract with AZ, as they have no legal controls within the contract and having to fall back on Article 122 of the treaty. Combined with the fact of the potential third waves in Europe means it's a recipe for disaster.

Whilst the original decision to suspend the vaccine whilst the batch is checked is the right one, for many to insinuate that this is purely a regulatory decision and there's no inclination of a political decision in there isn't completely correct based on what France's industry minister is quoted on saying. The EU still has a stockpile of AZ vaccines which aren't currently and, off the back of this weeks news, doesn't look to be being utilised any time soon. I can't see the uptake improving unless something dramatically changes.

The news on the UK's distribution today does seem to be slightly cautious considering a large chunk of AZ was delivered over the weekend, which now looks like it'll be targeting second doses of the 25m already vaccinated (looking at currently 2m per week in April). It appears that AZ yields are struggling, and Moderna are going to be 20% behind their original schedule. This looks to be a short term impact of about 4 weeks, and based off the current progress anyone in the at risk groups will have had a single jab, so hospitalisation rates will be dramatically lower. It should mean that the re-opening road map should run to schedule.

Which police do you belong to.

So Uk can posters can slag off the EU but if I defend the EU I'm turning it into a Brexit thread, jesus wept.

The french health minister was all in favour of continuing the AZ until a few days ago and suspended till hopefully having a positive answer by the end of this week.
The AZ delivery was from india was it not, not from the UK.

In summary your posts and previous ones were anti-EU , I'll keep quiet then.

 

[F-Red]

See my edit above. By “we” he means the French regulators that made the call. The EU regulatory network is long established and there’s often a domino effect when one regulator raises safety concerns. That can influence others to copy their approach. That’s not a political decision though. Although the government(s) will obviously have been notified first.

Hmmm, I don't know how you can talk with complete confidence that politics hasn't come into play across all the countries when the stories are all inconsistent from country to country, especially when the German interpretation internally is that politics is at play from their health minister. The nordics are the only ones that seem to be consistent throughout on this.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Hmmm, I don't know how you can talk with complete confidence that politics hasn't come into play across all the countries when the stories are all inconsistent from country to country, especially when the German interpretation internally is that politics is at play from their health minister. The nordics are the only ones that seem to be consistent throughout on this.

There’s nothing in that article to support your accusation. The opposite, if anything.

Spahn says he acted on expert advice after Germany’s vaccine watchdog reported on what it described as a statistically significant number of cases of a rare brain blood clot

There are loads of accusations of this being politically motivated (particularly from the UK it seems) but no evidence. That just isn’t the way the pharma regulators work. They advise the government, not the other way round.

 

[F-Red]

Which police do you belong to.

So Uk can posters can slag off the EU but if I defend the EU I'm turning it into a Brexit thread, jesus wept.

Your first post in the thread said it all. Nothing needed defending.

The french health minister was all in favour of continuing the AZ until a few days ago and suspended till hopefully having a positive answer by the end of this week.
The AZ delivery was from india was it not, not from the UK.

In summary your posts and previous ones were anti-EU , I'll keep quiet then.

Your don't make much sense in the above, but to simplify the point I was making. The EU's negotiation of the contract is weak with AZ, they can't hold AZ to much hence why they're falling back on terms within the EU treaty allowing them to take emergency control around distribution of 'essential' items. Typically food and medical supplies, the latter including the vaccine now. The UK's latest AZ delivery was from India, and was always scheduled to arrive at this time based on their original order.

I don't know where you have me down as 'anti-EU' simply because I'm critical? Or why everything is so binary and blinded? You can be Pro-EU and recognise the painful roll out of the vaccination programme in the EU, no one is immune (pun intended) from criticism at a time where everyone needs shots in arms to get the world working again.

 

[Bosws87]

There’s nothing in that article to support your accusation. The opposite, if anything.



There are loads of accusations of this being politically motivated (particularly from the UK it seems) but no evidence. That just isn’t the way the pharma regulators work. They advise the government, not the other way round.

Plenty of evidence you just choose to focus it on this pause, a lot of people are talking about the whole vaccine approach since day one.

 

[F-Red]

There’s nothing in that article to support your accusation. The opposite, if anything.

There are loads of accusations of this being politically motivated (particularly from the UK it seems) but no evidence. That just isn’t the way the pharma regulators work. They advise the government, not the other way round.

Stastically significant? 0.0004% of the total 1.6m vaccination?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Stastically significant? 0.0004% of the total 1.6m vaccination?

Yes. Statistically significant. Incidence of an extremely rare disorder at a rate several multiples higher than the baseline incidence. And that’s just in Germany

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There will have been similar calculations in every country with a cluster. By actual scientists. Who do this for a living. The desperate rush for so many Uk commentators (including, embarrassingly, many doctors) to dismiss this as nothing but politics is actually kind of disgraceful.

I think it’s reasonable to question whether or not they are being overly cautious but to imply that they’re making up or exaggerating these facts at the behest of their government is ludicrous.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Your first post in the thread said it all. Nothing needed defending.



Your don't make much sense in the above, but to simplify the point I was making. The EU's negotiation of the contract is weak with AZ, they can't hold AZ to much hence why they're falling back on terms within the EU treaty allowing them to take emergency control around distribution of 'essential' items. Typically food and medical supplies, the latter including the vaccine now. The UK's latest AZ delivery was from India, and was always scheduled to arrive at this time based on their original order.

I don't know where you have me down as 'anti-EU' simply because I'm critical? Or why everything is so binary and blinded? You can be Pro-EU and recognise the painful roll out of the vaccination programme in the EU, no one is immune (pun intended) from criticism at a time where everyone needs shots in arms to get the world working again.

I have never said the EU is perfect or that their procurement programme was great either and my first post which you seem to have an issue with because it might seem that the UK isn't perfect seems to have upset you.
No one has mentioned stopping food or essential items.
Firstly why should the UK be able to negotiate a contract giving them first delivery before anyone else, not just the EU, the rest of the world as well. If AZ are so far short of their production target, not 20%, much more why can't some of the Indian delivery go elsewhere.

You are talking with Pogue about political decisions. Which political decisions, to stop people having vaccines because AZ is a British company, oh no it's not , only when convenient and certainly nothing to do with the British government to whom AZ have forwarded the awkward questions about lack of supply..

Yes everyone needs to be vaccinated, the UK the EU , the USA , Africa, Asia , Oceania, everywhere and until they all are normality won't return.

 

[F-Red]

Yes. Statistically significant. Incidence of an extremely rare disorder at a rate several multiples higher than the baseline incidence. And that’s just in Germany

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There will have been similar calculations in every country with a cluster. By actual scientists. Who do this for a living. The desperate rush for so many Uk commentators (including, embarrassingly, many doctors) to dismiss this as nothing but politics is actually kind of disgraceful.

My original point back to all of this, is the naivity to assume that this no politics has played a part in this. I agree that a cluster of cases needs looking at, that's basic and principled science. Common sense would then prevail and suggest that based on Germany's total vaccination volume of 1.6m, that 7 cases closely together intimates that it's more a batch issue than a total vaccine issue. In fact, Italy had previously halted the use of a single batch of the vaccine, ABV 2856, but had allowed other injections to continue. Are medical regulators or experts in Italy doing something different?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

My original point back to all of this, is the naivity to assume that this no politics has played a part in this. I agree that a cluster of cases needs looking at, that's basic and principled science. Common sense would then prevail and suggest that based on Germany's total vaccination volume of 1.6m, that 7 cases closely together intimates that it's more a batch issue than a total vaccine issue. In fact, Italy had previously halted the use of a single batch of the vaccine, ABV 2856, but had allowed other injections to continue. Are medical regulators or experts in Italy doing something different?

I’m afraid that doesn’t seem to be the issue here. Science can be counter-intuitive. What seems “common sense” doesn’t always apply.

Here’s an excellent article on some of the science behind these concerns.

The Italian drama seems to have been completely different. A single patient had a high fever and died in his sleep the day after being vaccinated. Post mortem confirmed a cardiac event and evidence of long term coronary artery disease. Now that is the sort of incident that should never cause a regulatory pause!

 

[F-Red]

I have never said the EU is perfect or that their procurement programme was great either and my first post which you seem to have an issue with because it might seem that the UK isn't perfect seems to have upset you.
No one has mentioned stopping food or essential items.

You're getting confused here. You don't understand article 122 which Von der Leyen is ultimately going to roll back on. It mentions that the blocking of exports falls under for essential services, which the vaccine will fall under by definition. My point is that she's falling back on that part of the treaty because the contract that was negotiated and agreed with AZ essentially is the reason the EU has the poor roll out of the vaccine.

Firstly why should the UK be able to negotiate a contract giving them first delivery before anyone else, not just the EU, the rest of the world as well. If AZ are so far short of their production target, not 20%, much more why can't some of the Indian delivery go elsewhere.

There was a contract with the main players of the EU (Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Spain-iirc) that was ready to go, the EU decided they wanted to negotiate the contract as a bloc and ripped up the agreement. They added 2 months of delays into the signing of the contract (mid-August), which case they were 3 months behind others who had signed contracts and began putting the steps forward for local production. Essentially they took their time, and a queue was already forming. The EU are essentially getting their deliveries to the terms of the agreement, which is best endeavours. There's nothing legal the EU can fall back on in the contract, otherwise it would have been invoked already, which is why article 122 is the most likely recourse for Von der Leyen to attempt to catch up on their complacency so far.

You are talking with Pogue about political decisions. Which political decisions, to stop people having vaccines because AZ is a British company, oh no it's not , only when convenient and certainly nothing to do with the British government to whom AZ have forwarded the awkward questions about lack of supply..

No one has said that, read the posts again.

 

[F-Red]

I’m afraid that doesn’t seem to be the issue here. Science can be counter-intuitive. What seems “common sense” doesn’t always apply.

Here’s an excellent article on some of the science behind these concerns.

Thanks for the link, good read. I wonder if there would be this furore if the cases weren't clustered?

The Italian drama seems to have been completely different. A single patient had a high fever and died in his sleep the day after being vaccinated. Post mortem confirmed a cardiac event and evidence of long term coronary artery disease. Now that is the sort of incident that should never cause a regulatory pause!

Which is my point really, the inconsistencies across the nations is too much to put down to just cautious regulatory bodies and health ministers, and absolutely no politics being involved. Hopefully we'll see a resolution on this in the next 24hrs, I think it's tomorrow that they're due to come back on a decision?

 

[africanspur]

That's dodging the question.

The FDA made them start a new trial months ago, when they definitely did need all the vaccines they could get, and the individual regulation agencies of the largest European countries are hardly any less qualified than the EMA.

I'm not trying to corner you. I would just like to know your opinion on why credible, qualified regulators have all come to very different decisions on the same data.

It's not dodging the question. You asked me why the FDA and EMA did something, when the EMA didn't even do the thing you suggested.

I didn't say that individual country agencies are any less qualified than others. The scientists in thr UK, USA, EU, Norway, Germany, France, Spain are no more or less qualified than the others and the main agency which has come under fire on here for being lax is the MHRA, when there are no indications that this is the case.

I don't think you're trying to corner me. I just think that in some ways, a lot of this debate doesn't make much sense. It kind of ignores that a lot of medical practice isn't as cast iron as many seem to think it is. Guidelines differ in the UK, France, Germany, USA, Japan. I'm sure people would also be surprised that there's quite a bit of medicine that doesn't always have an evidence base across the board (in terms of gender, age and ethnicity).

I've never once thought that anyone in any of the licencing organisations have done a lax job. I find it so weird that so many non experts have convinced themselves otherwise, either that the MHRA is shit or that the individual agencies currently pausing rollout are playing political games.

I think different regulators have slightly different procedures and different contexts in which they operate. I'm pretty sure the MHRA were getting data from AZ for instance in real time, while thr USA already knew Pfizer and Moderna were coming by the time they reviewed the data for AZ and so it wasn't as important for them. By that point, with some slightly shoddy steps on the actual study design and a lesser headline figure, why would they bother unless they were totally and utterly happy with every aspect of the data? Especially as they'd have to import the vaccine in.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You're getting confused here. You don't understand article 122 which Von der Leyen is ultimately going to roll back on. It mentions that the blocking of exports falls under for essential services, which the vaccine will fall under by definition. My point is that she's falling back on that part of the treaty because the contract that was negotiated and agreed with AZ essentially is the reason the EU has the poor roll out of the vaccine.



There was a contract with the main players of the EU (Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Spain-iirc) that was ready to go, the EU decided they wanted to negotiate the contract as a bloc and ripped up the agreement. They added 2 months of delays into the signing of the contract (mid-August), which case they were 3 months behind others who had signed contracts and began putting the steps forward for local production. Essentially they took their time, and a queue was already forming. The EU are essentially getting their deliveries to the terms of the agreement, which is best endeavours. There's nothing legal the EU can fall back on in the contract, otherwise it would have been invoked already, which is why article 122 is the most likely recourse for Von der Leyen to attempt to catch up on their complacency so far.



No one has said that, read the posts again.

The vaccine falls under that article, but VDL says she wants a response from the UK which leads to my point as to why the UK was able to negotiate a contract that gave them all the first production, you seem to have no problem with this. Yes the EU were late, yes they made mistakes, yes they had a late roll-out. Don't see anyone denying that. Contracts would be negotiated based on the capacity announced by the producer and clearly AZ have got that catastrophically wrong. Forget the EU for a minute, so morally it is OK for the UK to receive all the vaccines first before any other country and those who couldn't negotiate a better price

I 'm trying to get a straight answer as to what this political reason is but no-one will say it.

 

[F-Red]

The vaccine falls under that article, but VDL says she wants a response from the UK which leads to my point as to why the UK was able to negotiate a contract that gave them all the first production, you seem to have no problem with this. Yes the EU were late, yes they made mistakes, yes they had a late roll-out. Don't see anyone denying that. Contracts would be negotiated based on the capacity announced by the producer and clearly AZ have got that catastrophically wrong.

This article should help explain the current position - https://www.politico.eu/article/the-key-differences-between-the-eu-and-uk-astrazeneca-contracts/

Forget the EU for a minute, so morally it is OK for the UK to receive all the vaccines first before any other country and those who couldn't negotiate a better price

Define 'all' the vaccines, the UK's agreement has priority over vaccines produced in their country, it's not getting anything preferential over others engineered or orchestrated by AZ. The EU actually got the best financial deal by getting the AZ jab at cost, however price isn't everything when supply is the more important factor in a pandemic. As for other countries, that's why Covax exists.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Thanks for the link, good read. I wonder if there would be this furore if the cases weren't clustered?



Which is my point really, the inconsistencies across the nations is too much to put down to just cautious regulatory bodies and health ministers, and absolutely no politics being involved. Hopefully we'll see a resolution on this in the next 24hrs, I think it's tomorrow that they're due to come back on a decision?

Absolutely. It’s the clustering that raised the red flag. Apparently an announcement at some point tomorrow. I’m desperately hoping this all an over-reaction, obviously.

I’ve been trying to stick to discussing the regulatory pause because I trust the regulatory authorities. The Italian thing always seemed a bit nuts because it wasn’t driven by the national regulator. It was a local decision to seize a batch. I think it might even have been a decision by the local police?!?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

This article should help explain the current position - https://www.politico.eu/article/the-key-differences-between-the-eu-and-uk-astrazeneca-contracts/



Define 'all' the vaccines, the UK's agreement has priority over vaccines produced in their country, it's not getting anything preferential over others engineered or orchestrated by AZ. The EU actually got the best financial deal by getting the AZ jab at cost, however price isn't everything when supply is the more important factor in a pandemic. As for other countries, that's why Covax exists.

Yes I'm aware of that and I've just heard that the AZ supply to the UK will not be delayed from the UK production. "All" the vaccines from the UK production.
So where is the supply problem from AZ.

Covax gets it's deliveries from Pfizer and AZ and China are now involved, Ghana being the first to be delivered from AZ.

So what is this political reason.

 

[F-Red]

So where is the supply problem from AZ.

So what is this political reason.

Currently, AZ are saying it’s the yield from the factories with Europe. Moderna are short shipping by 20% of next months UK delivery, those plants are based in Spain.

There’s no political reason for why factory yields of a private businesses are lower than expected. Shortages were predicted back in January. From where I see it politics is only being brought in by Von der Leyen as a last resort because the terms of their contract with AZ are difficult to legally enforce.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Currently, AZ are saying it’s the yield from the factories with Europe. Moderna are short shipping by 20% of next months UK delivery, those plants are based in Spain.

There’s no political reason for why factory yields of a private businesses are lower than expected. Shortages were predicted back in January. From where I see it politics is only being brought in by Von der Leyen as a last resort because the terms of their contract with AZ are difficult to legally enforce.

That’s my take too.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Currently, AZ are saying it’s the yield from the factories with Europe. Moderna are short shipping by 20% of next months UK delivery, those plants are based in Spain.

There’s no political reason for why factory yields of a private businesses are lower than expected. Shortages were predicted back in January. From where I see it politics is only being brought in by Von der Leyen as a last resort because the terms of their contract with AZ are difficult to legally enforce.

Why should their factories in Europe be a problem if the UK is running Ok and they are getting shipments from the SI in India. It's their responsibility to sort it out.

Moderna are a very small player and J&J will be available shortly. Pfizer are on target to supply 200m doses to the EU in the next quarter. Towards the end of the year Sanofi/GSK are due to have their vaccine ready, very late in the day, although they are also producing Pfizer at other sites in the EU .

VdL's 'threat' was only today, this political reason has being going on for several days as to why some countries in the EU and outside the EU paused the AZ vaccine.
Why does this upset UK posters so much, what is this conspiracy.

 

[F-Red]

Why should their factories in Europe be a problem if the UK is running Ok and they are getting shipments from the SI in India. It's their responsibility to sort it out.

Factories in Europe are not a problem, it’s just the EU only signing the agreement in late August meant they were about 3 months behind the UK and it’s production capability at its factories. Most of the AZ agreements globally will have local factories producing their output (UK and Australia is a good example of this). The EU lost time by taking an agreement that was ready to sign back in May/June with the big five in Europe to go down a bloc contract route. That delay is the main reason why the yields in the European factories is behind others, as the timelines were later.

To break it down into simple terms for you, it’s like knowing a car takes 16 weeks to build but expecting to sign/agree/pay for it in week 15 and expecting it to be delivered one week later on week 16.

VdL's 'threat' was only today, this political reason has being going on for several days as to why some countries in the EU and outside the EU paused the AZ vaccine.
Why does this upset UK posters so much, what is this conspiracy.

It’s been going on for nearly three months. Not sure what you’re referring to by conspiracy though, the point by many on here is that the EUs current position is of their own doing, delaying the process of the agreement of the contract last year is costing lives. Putting export bans because of their negligence in contract negotiation and timely conclusion for the procurement of a vaccine from AZ is effecting others and lives, especially when all of the AZ supply within the EU isn’t being used and they’re holding a stockpile (prior to any temporary stop on the AZ vaccine).

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Factories in Europe are not a problem, it’s just the EU only signing the agreement in late August meant they were about 3 months behind the UK and it’s production capability at its factories. Most of the AZ agreements globally will have local factories producing their output (UK and Australia is a good example of this). The EU lost time by taking an agreement that was ready to sign back in May/June with the big five in Europe to go down a bloc contract route. That delay is the main reason why the yields in the European factories is behind others, as the timelines were later.

To break it down into simple terms for you, it’s like knowing a car takes 16 weeks to build but expecting to sign/agree/pay for it in week 15 and expecting it to be delivered one week later on week 16.



It’s been going on for nearly three months. Not sure what you’re referring to by conspiracy though, the point by many on here is that the EUs current position is of their own doing, delaying the process of the agreement of the contract last year is costing lives. Putting export bans because of their negligence in contract negotiation and timely conclusion for the procurement of a vaccine from AZ is effecting others and lives, especially when all of the AZ supply within the EU isn’t being used and they’re holding a stockpile (prior to any temporary stop on the AZ vaccine).

No that isn't it at all, the EU have an agreement to be supplied within certain times and AZ are going to be very late.

Please do not try the condescending tone with me, won't end well.

They haven't put any export bans , what are you on about. The procurement of the AZ vaccine is affecting others, it is affecting the UK, is it.

Please make a sensible reply.

Just as well you're not having a go at the EU.

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

No you aren't. You are providing them with proof they have been vaccinated so they can do things like travel overseas. The predominantly African countries that require yellow fever vaccinations before you arrive are hideously impinging on your freedom by your view. Or simply looking after everyone's health in reality.



I think you have missed the point. Not vaccinating is not something that just affects individuals as not vaccinating can affect if we can get to herd immunity and those who genuinely can't be vaccinated.

And you are free not to be vaccinated. The difference is that you want to be free to not vaccinate but get the benefits that those who have vaccinated get while simultaneously endangering everyone. That selfish level of self-entitled free riding just doesn't cut the mustard.



NSW Australia. There are also family tax benefits that you can't get without vaccinating your kids. There is overwhelming support for it BTW.



Why should it? There are certain obligations that yu comply with as the price of living in a society, tax, seatbelt laws etc many of which are to encourage us to protect ourselves and others. I don't of course think we should be holding people down and sticking then with needles against their will but if you make choices you live with the consequences of that choice.



Half my life in the UK and half in Australia. This is a public health issue and the freedom to be an idiot is always targeted by laws, taxes, regulations or discouragement campaigns. This is no different. Personally I'd like the tax system in add 1% to the Medicare levy if you don't vaccinate to cover some of the cost.



The 2.7 million+ people who have died of this in the last would disagree if they were still around, as will their families and the millions more who are suffering debilitating long covid, as will the many millions who have suffered in various ways in the last year. Not being scared enough of it has been the biggest problem in most countries.



Have you not noticed what the pandemic has done to the world in the last 12 months? Left to run free things would have been far far worse and the only real way back to normality involves mass vaccination beyond the HIT, if that is possible.



The fatality rate start rising much younger than that. The majority of countries have a fatality rate higher than 0.5% once you are over 50 and over 60 it is between 2 and 4%. Older people have death rates of up to 15-20%. Older people are people to you know?

And 0.5% of the world's population is 38.3 million dead people. Well over 50 million in reality as there are lots of older people where the death rate is 10-20%. If we vaccinate but don't reach HIT many of those deaths will be avoided but nowhere near all of them. I value one of those lives more highly than your self-centered version of freedom.



Did you see the white text when you answered at least? Hard to miss.

I don't want anyone to die but if someone is stupid enough to not get vaccinated and if that choice didn't endanger us all (which it does), then if they then become infect and died I'm not going to shed too many tears TBH. But that decision does endanger us all which is which it isn't simply an individual choice.

No you aren't. You are providing them with proof they have been vaccinated so they can do things like travel overseas. The predominantly African countries that require yellow fever vaccinations before you arrive are hideously impinging on your freedom by your view. Or simply looking after everyone's health in reality.

You are comparing getting a vaccine to visit a foreign country to being essentially forced to get a vaccine in order to be able to live a normal life in the country you live in.

I think you have missed the point. Not vaccinating is not something that just affects individuals as not vaccinating can affect if we can get to herd immunity and those who genuinely can't be vaccinated.

There's the annual flu that people get vaccinated for, I've gotten the flu vaccine before. The flu kills a lot of people as well if you're not aware. Did I complain that other people didn't get the flu vaccine and that my life is in jeopardy because they didn't get the same shot? Did I start protesting and trying to get the country to force people into vaccination and get them to try and black mail them by telling them they need the flu shot in order to be able to go the gym or cinema? No. The flu mutates every year and at best they can guess or try and predict what strain they are going to vaccinate you with. I've gotten it before and never cried about other folks not getting it.

NSW Australia. There are also family tax benefits that you can't get without vaccinating your kids. There is overwhelming support for it BTW.

I see. Thankfully I have no plans to live in what seems like an authoritarian country.

The 2.7 million+ people who have died of this in the last would disagree if they were still around, as will their families and the millions more who are suffering debilitating long covid, as will the many millions who have suffered in various ways in the last year. Not being scared enough of it has been the biggest problem in most countries.

Do you know there are other diseases that kill people as well? The problem with with this stupid fecking virus is that apparently only covid now kills people. Everything else like cancer, flu, heart attacks, obesity all these other diseases don't exist anymore. Covid trumps all and kills all.

In my province in Canada, 250k+ waiting for life saving surgery. 60% drop in cancer surgeries last spring, 36k delayed. Almost impossible to recover from backlog. Don't worry though, we got to fight this virus that has 0.05% mortality rate.

Do you think this is fair? What do you have to tell my friend who's mom is battling cancer who can't have chemotherapy done because of all the "attention" covid is getting. Stop trying to make me feel morally guilty when you need to look at the bigger picture.

And the number of covid deaths is shoddy. I want to see the true numbers of deaths who died worldwide that died ONLY from Covid. I don't want to hear about the people that had 3 other conditions, were 80 years old and died from covid. Show me these numbers, please. I would love to know. In England the average age of mortality from covid is 81, which is about the same age of average life expectancy in england (79.4 years)

The reality is that we don't really know. The numbers have been skewed, messed with, etc. Guys like Elon Musk called it out, Dr. Rhonda Patrick, etc. all have plead their case that the data is terrible.

Sure anyone dying from covid is horrible, but when you have cases (like we did here in canada) of a young boy that tested positive from a nursing home, went home, recovered, came back to work after testing negative... then committed suicide after overdosing and he was then classified as a covid death, it really makes you question the numbers.

Also, at the beginning of the pandemic if you had covid like symptoms, without being tested they would classify your death as covid. Do you want me to show you the symptoms of covid?

Do you not see how ridiculous we have handled this pandemic? The world as a whole has had an absolute shambolic response to this. 1 year out and we're still treating this as if it's the bubonic plague. It's disgusting, honestly I'm sick of it. Sick of the fear mongering.

You tell me I'm being selfish when a small minority of people die from this, and yet you want to make the MAJORITY of the population stay home, wear 3 masks and never see our kids and family members, be blackmailed into a vaccine, etc.

I think you need to redefine your definition of selfish my friend.

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

Where would the fun be in that? Well not fun but ....

Nah I have no problems going back and forth with you, I'm open to new ideas but sadly doesn't seem like you are..

Really? I don't know i was told I was microchipping people, sterilising them and being called a nazi the first day I showed up to a vaccination clinic to give what is probably one of the safest and most effective forms of medical intervention.

Happy to say that you are in the minority, even amongst a vaccine-hesitant population group/demographic I serve as a GP - mostly south asian diaspora, uptake in the aggregate has been good, and continues to be.

This vaccine is really staggering in its efficacy and safety profile. Genuinely a medical miracle.

You don't know that until long term effects come out. I really hope you're right though.

Really? Which bit? 5G? Bill Gates? Your DNA will be altered? George Soros? Enlighten us.

None of that craziness, but there's guys like Chris Sky from Toronto (which I have hated so far) but has correctly called a bunch of things before they happened (covid passports, quarantine hotels, he also went to ireland and gave them a warning about the 5 levels of lockdown before it was known public - he predicted they would go to level 3 lockdown when the gov't led them to believe they were going to lessen restrictions) he's had a bunch more things come true with his predictions in canada as well.

What opens my eyes is that the response to this has been moving the goalposts every single time they enforce more restrictions. We were told 2 or 3 weeks of lockdown to "flatten the curve", to make sure we don't run out of PPE. 2 weeks turned into 52 weeks. It's okay though, just another 2 more weeks! They promise this time.

In my province we've had 1 million cancer screenings missed. It's all good though, let's protect the old people from this. Oh wait... our response and care in old folks home has been a disaster as well!

Out of 14 million in my province, THERE HAVE BEEN 3 DEATHS RELATED TO RESTAURANTS AND SMALL BUSINESS... yet what do we do? Shutdown all dining places and close all small businesses.

Amazing for the economy.. absolutely amazing, let's continue to print more money, destroy the value of the dollar, raise asset prices and continue making the poor poorer. Do you not see what is happening? Do you have a background in anything finance or economics related? Do you have any interest? I'd like to gauge because I don't think you're seeing this from the bigger picture.

Over half of small businesses in Ontario are teetering on the verge of bankruptcy and don't know if they can continue at current levels. The gap between the poor, middle class and wealthy continues to widen and widen. That's okay.. let's do everything we can to fix this insanely deadly virus, ignore all other diseases they don't exist anymore, ignore the fact that our future generations won't be able to afford homes anymore as price of real estate went parabolic.

I know there are people reading this thread who agree and can see what I'm talking about (@Schmeichel's Cartwheel ), but unfortunately given the society we are in we are not encouraged to question the status quo. Rather just continue acting essentially like a drone and do and think as we're told.

 

[mav_9me]

I am a physician in USA. I have been under the impression this clots in vaccinated people issue has been overblown. Are medical people in Europe really thinking otherwise?

A good tweet as to why I think this is overblown.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

I will try to be more active in this thread.

To me it seems overblown because the risk of clots in covid is way way higher anyway.

 

[Cheimoon]

Nah I have no problems going back and forth with you, I'm open to new ideas but sadly doesn't seem like you are..



You don't know that until long term effects come out. I really hope you're right though.



None of that craziness, but there's guys like Chris Sky from Toronto (which I have hated so far) but has correctly called a bunch of things before they happened (covid passports, quarantine hotels, he also went to ireland and gave them a warning about the 5 levels of lockdown before it was known public - he predicted they would go to level 3 lockdown when the gov't led them to believe they were going to lessen restrictions) he's had a bunch more things come true with his predictions in canada as well.

What opens my eyes is that the response to this has been moving the goalposts every single time they enforce more restrictions. We were told 2 or 3 weeks of lockdown to "flatten the curve", to make sure we don't run out of PPE. 2 weeks turned into 52 weeks. It's okay though, just another 2 more weeks! They promise this time.

In my province we've had 1 million cancer screenings missed. It's all good though, let's protect the old people from this. Oh wait... our response and care in old folks home has been a disaster as well!

Out of 14 million in my province, THERE HAVE BEEN 3 DEATHS RELATED TO RESTAURANTS AND SMALL BUSINESS... yet what do we do? Shutdown all dining places and close all small businesses.

Amazing for the economy.. absolutely amazing, let's continue to print more money, destroy the value of the dollar, raise asset prices and continue making the poor poorer. Do you not see what is happening? Do you have a background in anything finance or economics related? Do you have any interest? I'd like to gauge because I don't think you're seeing this from the bigger picture.

Over half of small businesses in Ontario are teetering on the verge of bankruptcy and don't know if they can continue at current levels. The gap between the poor, middle class and wealthy continues to widen and widen. That's okay.. let's do everything we can to fix this insanely deadly virus, ignore all other diseases they don't exist anymore, ignore the fact that our future generations won't be able to afford homes anymore as price of real estate went parabolic.

I know there are people reading this thread who agree and can see what I'm talking about (@Schmeichel's Cartwheel ), but unfortunately given the society we are in we are not encouraged to question the status quo. Rather just continue acting essentially like a drone and do and think as we're told.

Yes, let's imagine we never had all the restrictions, or a much milder form. COVID-19 would have spread like wildfire, killing off most of the oldest generation, completely overburdening hospitals, causing people to not receive the interventions or screening they need, killing even more people that would have lived had they been treated for COVID-19 or whatever other condition they have but isn't place for in the hospitals anymore, and in the process completely shutting down the economy anyway.

You're singular focus on mortality rates is disingenuous (since its fallacy has been pointed out before), and the way you're hammering on economic issues suggests that you know better than every single government in the world. Are you at least running for office next time round? (I'm also in Ontario, FYI.)

 

[tinfish]

Unfortunately I'm not as well informed as others in this thread regarding the whole AZ vaccine malarkey and I look forward to reading future responses in this thread.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but whilst 'statistically significant' (in regards to the blood-clot allegation), isn't the consequence of withdrawing the vaccine - albeit temporarily likely to cost more lives? The media effect especially will further hinder the general public opinion in terms of their confidence towards vaccination and manufacturing brands. For example I have a few German mates who are adamant about the Pfizer vaccine only and will not take any other alternative.

We take a risk when taking a flight, drinking and smoking etc. Surely the risk of clots is significantly lower than catching, transmitting and dying as a result of Covid-19?