Which is why two close lines of four would have helped. I never said Buesquet made the difference. The space Messi found (or inesta/xavi) who caused many problems too would have been reduced.Nothing to do with Busquets mate, trust me... It was Messi that dropped deep and set up the plays which cost us...
Messi wasn't playing as a CF... He was clearly given a free role and was allowed to wonder all he liked, the problem was Messi went and played deep, went left went right and tried to find the space to receive the ball... Rio-Vidic were played Zonal as there was no way in hell they'd break the line in the back four and we didn't have enough people to pick up Xavi-Iniesta-Messi... They'd just give a back pass and run to find space with the player who marked Xavi pressuring the person who received the ball but no one to mark Messi later...
It was an easy give and go and they just found space... And with the close control Messi has got... No way in hell were our CB's going to stop him without creating a foul.
Top priority next time is to have someone always pick up Messi in Barca's attack, stop him from running and making the defense back peddle and finally we should have more movement and players confident enough to keep the ball and maybe attempt a dribble... Not lose possession in those spots in which Valencia/Evra were losing it that night.
We had to make use of the ball better and Mark Messi better... I'm sure SAF is aware of the tactic now is its the same one that was used in 09 which caused our downfall. Messi as CF is clearly the one thing we didn't pick up that time and it happened again.
No.So you basically say it's impossible?
You're over-simplifying Barca's ability. Nevertheless coming to the bolded part, that relies on your own ability to keep hold of the ball and to weather the 'swarm', and whether you are good enough at it as Barca are. If you can hold it for a sustained amount of time, you can get out of jail and begin to build attacks.No.
A combination of Scholes & Keane in their prime would have given them a run for their money.
We need 1 or 2 midfielders who have the technique & mobility to cope with the pressure that Barca put you under as soon as they concede possession. The Barca game is incredibly simple; all they do is pass the ball between Xavi and Iniesta and wait till they can get Messi in some space. And they rarely make passes over 10yards, the players stand so close to each other ensuring a superior positional game. Even when they lose the ball they never have to run far to challenge and hassle the opposition.
In Saturday's game Xavi & Iniesta passed 60x to each other and both passed to Messi a total of 55x.
So if you can have the discipline to position every player as a unit for the team and keep possession from them then they'll be the ones chasing their legs off.
Indeed. And that's the next step that Fergie will be looking to take. I think United will play more & more the Barca style in the next few years and so will many other teams. In fact even Blackpool tried to play the Barca style in the EPL this season.That relies on your own ability to keep hold of the ball, and whether you are good enough at it as Barca are.
You're over-simplifying Barca's ability. Nevertheless coming to the bolded part, that relies on your own ability to keep hold of the ball and to weather the 'swarm', and whether you are good enough at it as Barca are. If you can hold it for a sustained amount of time, you can get out of jail and begin to build attacks.
You need a certain profile of player to do that..a player United (apart from old Scholes) don't have at present. Arsene has the right idea of bringing up a group from a young age playing that way with the likes of Fabregas, Song, Jack and others so that they learn to forge an understanding..we're light years away from Barca in terms of the understanding they show but the style is very similar. Van Persie drops back to combine meaning we play with no strikers until the ball reaches the final third.It is that simple!!!!! The difficult part are the details: things like coaching players to which foot of their team mate should they pass or where they should move to to be best available to collect a pass.
It's a very viable alternative with the way Barcelona play. The centre backs are made redundant for periods of the game. It would have been a shock, but either Vidic or Rio could have been benched for an extra mid-fielder to man mark Messi. Easier said than done mind.3 at the back is a mildly interesting alternative but it is no alternative for a proper strong central midfield.
When the players and SAF mentioned a few times they had a plan for Messi I really thought he would be man marked. Turns out we played no differently to 2009, with identical results. Still, difficult to predict a different outcome with the personnel at our disposal compared to Barcelona.I said something about a 3 at the back solution. Seems plausible to me.
Apparently our plan was for Vidic to man mark Messi(even in midfield when required) but the players froze. I dunno, could be true.When the players and SAF mentioned a few times they had a plan for Messi I really thought he would be man marked. Turns out we played no differently to 2009, with identical results. Still, difficult to predict a different outcome with the personnel at our disposal compared to Barcelona.
I'm not sure Vidic with his body frame and lack of pace is suited to mark Messi.Apparently our plan was for Vidic to man mark Messi(even in midfield when required) but the players froze. I dunno, could be true.
Villa also caused problems, perhaps Rio's lack of mobility was the reason why we reverted back to our 09 pattern of play. Something I heard on Five Live.I'm not sure Vidic with his body frame and lack of pace is suited to mark Messi.
It could have been. Vidic stepped into midfield a few times to try and close Messi down, only to be made a fool of.Apparently our plan was for Vidic to man mark Messi(even in midfield when required) but the players froze. I dunno, could be true.
Yeah, apparently that's what we'd been practising for the last couple of weeks.It could have been. Vidic stepped into midfield a few times to try and close Messi down, only to be made a fool of.
He sounded very dismissive of the question because I think it struck a nerve in the sense that he DID want to take advantage of them at set pieces/corners etc, but sadly never got the chance.Fergie was asked pre-match would United's supposed height advantage be a factor. The boss shrugged it off and said the game would be settled in open play. Well he was correct in that but not to force one single corner with them playing the whole game with a midget in central defence was dissapointing.
We don't need to play like Barcelona to beat Barcelona.You need a certain profile of player to do that..a player United (apart from old Scholes) don't have at present. Arsene has the right idea of bringing up a group from a young age playing that way with the likes of Fabregas, Song, Jack and others so that they learn to forge an understanding..we're light years away from Barca in terms of the understanding they show but the style is very similar. Van Persie drops back to combine meaning we play with no strikers until the ball reaches the final third.
United's strength has always been counter-attacking efficiently and using the width; Moving over to a possession-based game will require a seachange in mentality as well as getting players in that need to develop an understanding with eachother.
We play as much the possession game as counter attacking depending on the opponent and/or situation of the game and have done since the the early to mid 90's.United's strength has always been counter-attacking efficiently and using the width; Moving over to a possession-based game will require a seachange in mentality as well as getting players in that need to develop an understanding with eachother.
Its the way forward, move further away from the traditional British style.it was interesting hearing Fergie on the parade bus. He pretty much said, that we need get to where Barca are currently in terms of the type of players and the way they play. He mentioned some of the youth players coming through and perhaps getting players in.
dont think Fergie will ever do that. He will stick to methods that has brought all these years of success. He has been stumped by this Barca machine and he is already planning.Its the way forward, move further away from the traditional British style.
think we backed off because, if we did tackle they would just get past us.I think we lost because we had a poor gameplan. It seemed as if the plan was to allow them a lot of space outside of the box so as to attract a long-range shot, which I assume was thought to be less of a threat then allowing them to pass through our defence.
This is blatantly bollocks and we should have been pressing them on the halfway line for the entire match and giving them no space. We lost because when any Barca player received the ball in the centre of the pitch, we stepped off and allowed them to run towards the goal, rather than competing with them as we should have.
I made the assumption that we did this on purpose because it was such a theme throughout the game - it does seem a bit on the retarded side though.
What the feck?Apparently our plan was for Vidic to man mark Messi(even in midfield when required) but the players froze. I dunno, could be true.
Correct. Xavi and Iniesta often found themselves 2v3 against our midfielders. As soon as Messi started to drop, they upped the ball tempo and passed/dribbled their way out of that 2v3 situation and suddenly our defence didn't have any protection.RedThaiDevils#7 said:...
Messi wasn't playing as a CF... He was clearly given a free role and was allowed to wonder all he liked, the problem was Messi went and played deep, went left went right and tried to find the space to receive the ball...
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Correct. Xavi and Iniesta often found themselves 2v3 against our midfielders. As soon as Messi started to drop, they upped the ball tempo and passed/dribbled their way out of that 2v3 situation and suddenly our defence didn't have any protection.
Man-marking Messi can potentially damage an otherwise controlled situation. Pedro's goal for instance. Xavi with the ball was seeking a killer pass. Messi dropped deep and forced Evra to either pick him up or let Xavi find him. Evra choose to pick him up and suddenly Vidic had to both set up the offside trap and move out to chase Pedro.
Obviously these situations are happening in a blink of an eye and the decision making of our defenders has to be spot on. Bloody nightmare.
Our 2 CM players were as close as they could be against them... The problem is that when Messi drops deep, our CB's couldn't go that high up to mark him leaving our 2 CM's out numbered with Mess-Xavi-Iniesta.... Then Barca try to get their so called Wing men and try to run into the gaps between the CB's and Fullbacks... its really simple.Which is why two close lines of four would have helped. I never said Buesquet made the difference. The space Messi found (or inesta/xavi) who caused many problems too would have been reduced.
The gap was too big between midfield and defence. If the defence is going to drop as deep as it did then the midfield needs to shield the 25yrd shots that came in.
I would prefer the defence to press a little further personally, but the biggest issue was the gap not the position.
Bloody nightmare indeed.Correct. Xavi and Iniesta often found themselves 2v3 against our midfielders. As soon as Messi started to drop, they upped the ball tempo and passed/dribbled their way out of that 2v3 situation and suddenly our defence didn't have any protection.
Man-marking Messi can potentially damage an otherwise controlled situation. Pedro's goal for instance. Xavi with the ball was seeking a killer pass. Messi dropped deep and forced Evra to either pick him up or let Xavi find him. Evra choose to pick him up and suddenly Vidic had to both set up the offside trap and move out to chase Pedro.
Obviously these situations are happening in a blink of an eye and the decision making of our defenders has to be spot on. Bloody nightmare.
I find it absolutely staggering that so many people seem to buy the line that United lost because "Barcelona are the best team in the world", maybe they are, but winning football matches is all about turning over teams even if they are technically better than you.I made this post in another thread but it seems to make more sense here...
Its not exactly a secret that Barca play with 5 in the middle of the park, and that their work rate is phenominal... the midfield was always going to have to soak up enormous amounts of pressure and deal with a side that is used to having 60-70 % of possession.
I am surprised that Fergie didn't opt for larger numbers and a more mobile mid three... some combination of Carrick, w. Anderson and either O'Shea or Fletcher or Park in a more central role (like the one he was used in by S. Korea). Obviously the man to make way for that extra midfielder would have been Chicharito... which leads to the problem of having Rooney being the lone man upfront (which we all know he can do), but it would have left him isolated against that Barca back 4... and would have cut down on his influence on the match. But I would have felt better knowing we had a game changer like Chicha to come off the bench that say... Michael Owen.
and I hate to say it, but for as good as he has been, Giggs probably shouldn't have started that game... especially given all of the media bollocks surrounding him (we should have learned that from the Rooney debacle). Certainly if Fergie was intent on playing him, out wide may have been the place for him, not playing him in the middle where work rate would be key.
What I'm suggesting would have made for an ugly dour match, but it would have given us a better chance to win.
Exactly what I tried to explain. Good video showcasing my point, plus some other things worth considering too.see this video, it explains our tactical cock up:
YouTube - Fc Barcelona vs Manchester United - How the game was won & lost (analysis)‏
