The 'you have to set up to play' narrative

TheReligion

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What do we think of this? Seems to be quite prevalent at the moment with Benitez getting murdered by Redknapp and Souness post game for how he set up. Souness suggests he'd rather play football and lose 0-3 than defend and lose 1-2. Redknapp saying fans need value and entertainment.

For me, as a United fan, we get this alot (sometimes unfairly I might add) with Mourinho. I totally get the point, everyone wants to see nice, attractive football, but essentially I'd go with coaches with the pedigree of Mourinho and Benitez over failures like Redknapp and Souness when it comes to understanding how to set up their teams and other factors behind the scenes which may inhibit them.

It seems now Liverpool and City play easy on the eye football anyone who does things differently is given a hard time and criticised.
 

giorno

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If Newcastle went out to play there's a 9 in 10 chance Chelsea are up 3-4 goals at half time

I agree about the need for entertainment, but ultimately i think most fans would rather be bored in the PL than entertained in the Championship

Results always come first. Now if Newcastle plays like that and loses at home against Burnley, fire away
 

Kostur

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Easy for them to say as it's not their job depending on the results. If somebody told them 'hey guys, you have to stop being shite pundits you fecking bores, say something interesting or we'll replace you' instead of riding their 'former player' fame, they would be fecked.
 

TheReligion

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If Newcastle went out to play there's a 9 in 10 chance Chelsea are up 3-4 goals at half time

I agree about the need for entertainment, but ultimately i think most fans would rather be bored in the PL than entertained in the Championship

Results always come first
Yeah that's my thoughts. Think it was very unfair on Rafa. I totally get why United face criticism, given we are supposed to be in the title mix, but even still there does seem to be a massive swing against the old school ''tactical masterclasses" of old.

Some excellent Italian sides were built on strong defensive set ups.
 

SteveW

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Newcastle are not Manchester United and have recently been in the championship. Results come first.

United should be producing results and good football.
 

Subho611

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What do we think of this? Seems to be quite prevalent at the moment with Benitez getting murdered by Redknapp and Souness post game for how he set up. Souness suggests he'd rather play football and lose 0-3 than defend and lose 1-2. Redknapp saying fans need value and entertainment.

For me, as a United fan, we get this alot (sometimes unfairly I might add) with Mourinho. I totally get the point, everyone wants to see nice, attractive football, but essentially I'd go with coaches with the pedigree of Mourinho and Benitez over failures like Redknapp and Souness when it comes to understanding how to set up their teams and other factors behind the scenes which may inhibit them.

It seems now Liverpool and City play easy on the eye football anyone who does things differently is given a hard time and criticised.
It always sounds like sour grapes to me. What business do you have dictating the opposing manager to play a certain way? You surely don't know the limitations the other manager is going through; what funds were made available and what expectations the board has set for him.

This is more to appease their own fans that we play a certain way and hence got done by archaic tactics. As if somehow, they are more righteous if they play a certain way.
 

breakout67

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Redknapp - idiot
Souness - has-been and deranged

They come off like some drunk fan at the pub. Newcastle have a championship level team and barely spend any money. They can 'play football' against the shite teams, do that against Chelsea and they'd get slaughtered.
 

bosnian_red

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Setting up to park the bus, contain, kill the game and grind it results only ever gets plaudits when it pays off. If it doesnt, you (rightly) get slaughtered for it. It's an entertainment business. People pay money to be entertained, people love football for the entertainment and the drama. Nobody dreams of grinding out a 0-0 result with 10% possession. People always remember high scoring, end to end affairs.

When it comes to relegation fodder, obviously against the big teams their best hope is usually to park the bus. Teams like Atletico Madrid are never going to be able to outspend (or get close to matching) Real Madrid and Barca, so if they set up the same, they'll finish 3rd. They use a limited budget to compete at the top.

When a team has one of the biggest spending power in the world, one of the biggest clubs around historically and they choose to go defensive, well I think that's embarassing and they should get slaughtered every time they do that with minimal praise when they win. Certain clubs simply have to play entertaining football or at least always go with the intention to outplay the opposition. United, Barca, Madrid, Bayern, and Liverpool are historically those clubs. Psg and City have done that in the recent past. Italian clubs get an exception as theyve always been famed for their defensive quality. So for me, I absolutely hate the fact that we are fecking brutal to watch. We had near unlimited funds, we could have built however he wanted. Mourinho went for a defensive side (and has failed at it, given we are awful defensively), instead of looking to be a proactive manager like every big team should be.
 

bosnian_red

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Yeah that's my thoughts. Think it was very unfair on Rafa. I totally get why United face criticism, given we are supposed to be in the title mix, but even still there does seem to be a massive swing against the old school ''tactical masterclasses" of old.

Some excellent Italian sides were built on strong defensive set ups.
We get the criticism as we are a mess defensively most of the time and rely on goalkeeping masterclasses, which only are needed when the managers system fails in the first place.
 

abdo99

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Small clubs are entitled to play however they need to play to get the result against bigger teams. It's stupid and daft to ask a team like Newcastle to outplay Chelsea. Look at the difference in spending power. Bigger clubs have a responsibility to entertain. There's a difference.
 

TheReligion

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Setting up to park the bus, contain, kill the game and grind it results only ever gets plaudits when it pays off. If it doesnt, you (rightly) get slaughtered for it. It's an entertainment business. People pay money to be entertained, people love football for the entertainment and the drama. Nobody dreams of grinding out a 0-0 result with 10% possession. People always remember high scoring, end to end affairs.

When it comes to relegation fodder, obviously against the big teams their best hope is usually to park the bus. Teams like Atletico Madrid are never going to be able to outspend (or get close to matching) Real Madrid and Barca, so if they set up the same, they'll finish 3rd. They use a limited budget to compete at the top.

When a team has one of the biggest spending power in the world, one of the biggest clubs around historically and they choose to go defensive, well I think that's embarassing and they should get slaughtered every time they do that with minimal praise when they win. Certain clubs simply have to play entertaining football or at least always go with the intention to outplay the opposition. United, Barca, Madrid, Bayern, and Liverpool are historically those clubs. Psg and City have done that in the recent past. Italian clubs get an exception as theyve always been famed for their defensive quality. So for me, I absolutely hate the fact that we are fecking brutal to watch. We had near unlimited funds, we could have built however he wanted. Mourinho went for a defensive side (and has failed at it, given we are awful defensively), instead of looking to be a proactive manager like every big team should be.
I accept your points but let's not turn this thread into another negative one about United (there's plenty of that on here and other threads to post in).

This is more the general perception now seems to be you're not allowed to play a certain way and set up to defend without receiving criticism whilst if you go gung ho and get stuffed people will still praise you.
 

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We have seen sides like Swansea and Southampton play good Football and occasionally get results against top sides. It is possible to do both.
 

Jcrossley94

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It’s an easy argument to make from a position where your team are playing and are capable of playing that way.

It’s a lazy criticism.
 

InLevyITrust

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Lot of bollocks Benitez has a job to do and poi:to to secure, if Redknapp or Souness have a better way to play I suggest they look for a head coaching job.
 

giorno

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Italian clubs get an exception as theyve always been famed for their defensive quality.
Noooope. A lot of Italian pundits(beginning with Arrigo Sacchi) are waiting at the riverbank for Juventus to fail so they can slaughter Allegri. Quite a few juventus fans, too

Agree with your post tho. Certain clubs have an obligation to win AND entertain. Teams like Newcastle, Burnley, etc, it's all about results. And catenaccio is quite simply the most tried&true low-risk, high reward style, especially against better teams(which, for those kind of teams is most of their opponents)
 

InLevyITrust

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Noooope. A lot of Italian pundits(beginning with Arrigo Sacchi) are waiting at the riverbank for Juventus to fail so they can slaughter Allegri. Quite a few juventus fans, too

Agree with your post tho. Certain clubs have an obligation to win AND entertain. Teams like Newcastle, Burnley, etc, it's all about results. And catenaccio is quite simply the most tried&true low-risk, high reward style, especially against better teams(which, for those kind of teams is most of their opponents)
That’s a bit hard on Burnley they can play some decent stuff.
 

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They should still try to attack and score a goal. Chelsea are not a direct rival to them so denying them 2 extra points should have no relevance. It has been shown statistcally that attacking your opponent will yield more points on average than playing for a draw even though there will be the occasional heavy defeat in between. In simple terms: a 0-5, 0-5, 0-5, 2-1, 0-3 sequence of results is still better than 0-0, 1-2, 0-1, 0-1, 1-1. But the narrative will be that the first approach is tactically naive whereas managers will claim to have kept it tight after the second sequence. Also the heavy defeats are more likely to cost you your job which is why it is understandable managers are reluctant to do it. Newcastle managed 0.21 xG today (0.08 from Joselu's goal that should have been ruled out) giving them an xPts of 0.26. That is just not good enough regardless of the opposition and way below their expectation before kick off.
 
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Orc

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It wasn't the defensive setup that bothered me today from Newcastle as a Chelsea fan. I've seen my share of that under our previous 2 managers. It was the constant fouls and hacking at our players that pissed me off. And the ref did feck all about it until the last 15 or so minutes of the game.
 

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Newcastle is most poorly run club in the league. Benitez probably has the hardest job in terms of managers of club's whose ambition is to stay in the league.He did an amazing job last year to only be disappointed by what's his face. Souness and Redknapp are talking b.s
 

spiriticon

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I think there's a time and place for every tactic. If I was a Newcastle fan playing Chelsea, I'd absolutely expect a sturdy bus with the hope of nicking one or two goals via a set piece or a good counter.

However, If I were a Newcastle fan playing a lower league team in the FA Cup, I'd expect the team to take the initiative. If Newcastle are defending for their lives against the likes of MK Dons for example, there's something seriously wrong.
 

redIndianDevil

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They should still try to attack and score a goal. Chelsea are not a direct rival to them so denying them 2 extra points should have no relevance. It has been shown statistcally that attacking your opponent will yield more points on average than playing for a draw even though there will be the occasional heavy defeat in between. In simple terms: a 0-5, 0-5, 0-5, 2-1, 0-3 sequence of results is still better than 0-0, 1-2, 0-1, 0-1, 1-1. But the narrative will be that the first approach is tactically naive whereas managers will claim to have kept it tight after the second sequence. Also the heavy defeats are more likely to cost you your job which is why it is understandable managers are reluctant to do it. Newcastle managed 0.21 xG today (0.08 from Joselu's goal that should have been ruled out) giving them an xPts of 0.26. That is just not good enough regardless of the opposition and way below their expectation before kick off.
three 0-5s completely demoralizes your players and there is a real chance that players begin to think manager's methods are not working.
 

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It's frustrating to watch, especially when you're a fan of the opposing team, but I'll never judge a manager of a weaker team for doing it. What matters is having the points at the end of the season.
 

flappyjay

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They should still try to attack and score a goal. Chelsea are not a direct rival to them so denying them 2 extra points should have no relevance. It has been shown statistcally that attacking your opponent will yield more points on average than playing for a draw even though there will be the occasional heavy defeat in between. In simple terms: a 0-5, 0-5, 0-5, 2-1, 0-3 sequence of results is still better than 0-0, 1-2, 0-1, 0-1, 1-1. But the narrative will be that the first approach is tactically naive whereas managers will claim to have kept it tight after the second sequence. Also the heavy defeats are more likely to cost you your job which is why it is understandable managers are reluctant to do it. Newcastle managed 0.21 xG today (0.08 from Joselu's goal that should have been ruled out) giving them an xPts of 0.26. That is just not good enough regardless of the opposition and way below their expectation before kick off.
It's not just about the points for a team that's going to be probably in relegation dog fight it's about the goal difference too. If you give the top six enough room you could let in 30+ goals combined by the end of the season just from the top six. The might not be in direct competition but the wallopings would add to their woes. Even if the manager doesn't get fired the squad would lose morale bottom half managers take things like that into consideration too.
 

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Apparently their captain was so unhappy with the setup that he was dropped after a bust up with Rafa.

There's setting up to defend and there's what Newcastle did today. Less than 20% possession at home is awful.
 

bosnian_red

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I accept your points but let's not turn this thread into another negative one about United (there's plenty of that on here and other threads to post in).

This is more the general perception now seems to be you're not allowed to play a certain way and set up to defend without receiving criticism whilst if you go gung ho and get stuffed people will still praise you.
It shouldn't happen for smaller sides, but this was always there, just social media being bigger and bigger. Go back over 10 years and you have Fergie saying United have a duty to attack while people criticized more defensive big teams. Or way back people laughed at how Arsenal always won 1-0. Its one of those where they are heroes if it pulls off, and get hammered if they fail as they basically did nothing.
 

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Setting up to park the bus, contain, kill the game and grind it results only ever gets plaudits when it pays off. If it doesnt, you (rightly) get slaughtered for it. It's an entertainment business. People pay money to be entertained, people love football for the entertainment and the drama. Nobody dreams of grinding out a 0-0 result with 10% possession. People always remember high scoring, end to end affairs.

When it comes to relegation fodder, obviously against the big teams their best hope is usually to park the bus. Teams like Atletico Madrid are never going to be able to outspend (or get close to matching) Real Madrid and Barca, so if they set up the same, they'll finish 3rd. They use a limited budget to compete at the top.

When a team has one of the biggest spending power in the world, one of the biggest clubs around historically and they choose to go defensive, well I think that's embarassing and they should get slaughtered every time they do that with minimal praise when they win. Certain clubs simply have to play entertaining football or at least always go with the intention to outplay the opposition. United, Barca, Madrid, Bayern, and Liverpool are historically those clubs. Psg and City have done that in the recent past. Italian clubs get an exception as theyve always been famed for their defensive quality. So for me, I absolutely hate the fact that we are fecking brutal to watch. We had near unlimited funds, we could have built however he wanted. Mourinho went for a defensive side (and has failed at it, given we are awful defensively), instead of looking to be a proactive manager like every big team should be.
Excellent post.
 

WR10

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The thing is, the two can coexist. In fact, it’s the standard today.
 

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Had Chelsea not scored a jammy goal to win the game , no one would have batted an eye. Rafa's tactics almost worked. These souness and Redknapp are bunch of nobodies who think they know everything about the game. Jokers
 

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You can do whatever the feck you want, but football is entertainment first and for most. When the game js shite to watch thecrowd goes BOOOO, if you win in the end that's fine if you don't there's little else to cheer for.

I think it also depends on expectations. Fans of top clubs expect a certain level of dominance, whereas a Cardiff,Newcastle or Brighton fan is fine with scraping out a resukt with 5% possession and 1 shot in goal.

I think results beat aestethics, but people who pay out of their nose to see their team play are entitled to boo them when they're shite.
 
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MackRobinson

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I really dislike when pundits talk garbage without putting it in context. Newcastle were missing 6 players (he says so at the 1:24 mark of the video) with 2 of those being arguably their two best players. Why should Benitez play into their hands and get smashed? Imagine getting relegated on goal differential because "you have set up to play". Really stupid shit these pundits say sometimes.
 

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19% possession at St James's Park in front of their own fans. Seems like Benitez trying to make a point to Ashley. I can understand where Souness is coming from. I think those Newcastle players being forced to play with shackles on would have preferred to have lost 3-0 and given it a go rather than lose playing the way they did. Losing by the odd goal means feck all to them. A loss is a loss!
 

Jcrossley94

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19% possession at St James's Park in front of their own fans. Seems like Benitez trying to make a point to Ashley. I can understand where Souness is coming from. I think those Newcastle players being forced to play with shackles on would have preferred to have lost 3-0 and given it a go rather than lose playing the way they did. Losing by the odd goal means feck all to them. A loss is a loss!
Did you read the post above yours ??
 

Classical Mechanic

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I really dislike when pundits talk garbage without putting it in context. Newcastle were missing 6 players (he says so at the 1:24 mark of the video) with 2 of those being arguably their two best players. Why should Benitez play into their hands and get smashed? Imagine getting relegated on goal differential because "you have set up to play". Really stupid shit these pundits say sometimes.
Statistics prove that ‘setting up to play’ gets newly promoted teams relegated far more often that surrendering the ball and sitting in.
 

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We have seen sides like Swansea and Southampton play good Football and occasionally get results against top sides. It is possible to do both.
We've also seen those sides play scrappy football, while struggling to stay up last season.

I don't see the issue with Benitez's tactics. The pundits moan when teams can't or don't try to defend, and moan when they don't open themselves up to teams like City.
 

Smores

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For a team like Newcastle playing Chelsea its incredibly unfair to lay any criticism on them. They're well within their rights to play for a draw if that's what they want.

Also to slightly rephrase some of the above posts, Newcastle don't have the glory supporters of bigger clubs they weren't chosen by fans because of their style in catalog fashion and thus thats the expectation. Football is entertainment but for most football fans the drama of the journey trying to secure a result you're happy with is the entertainment much more so then step overs and flicks.
 
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FootballHQ

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I can understand why Newcastle played like that today, that sort of approach from them got them wins v Man. United, Arsenal and indeed Chelsea last season.

That said you look at the way Girona are playing v Real Madrid right now and with all the money sloshing around the premier league teams should be able to construct 11s to have a go v vast majority of teams.
 

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As pundits they just don't have anything insightful to say about tactics, so when a team does this and lose that is what they say. If Newcastle nicked a 1-1 they'd be praising Rafa, guaranteed. They are 100% results orientated in their analysis.
 

simplyared

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Did you read the post above yours ??
Yes read the post you're referring to. Wolves had 30% possession against City yesterday. 11 shots on target against city's 18. If there's a team at present that could steamroll you it's city. Looking at the same stats for the Newcastle Chelsea game you can say at least Wolves gave it a go and came out of it with a point and played a lot more entertaining than Newcastle did.